Financial Wellness for Healthcare Professionals (ft. Savannah Arroyo)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now your host, Ed Marx. Welcome, Digital Voices. This is Ed, and glad you are with us again. And another exciting topic. We always love to mix it up. We're gonna talk a lot about not just nursing and digital, but also financial wellbeing. So really excited to bring in my friend Savannah. So Savannah, welcome to Digital Voices.

Yeah, thank you. I'm super excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, this is gonna be a great topic. Something I think is gonna be really interesting and beneficial for our listeners. But before we get there, DJ Megan, thoughts around the topic of wellbeing?

Yeah, well, specifically for this episode, I'm excited to hear about, you know, wealth and financial well-being and how that kind of can contribute to— I mean, everything's interconnected when it comes to well-being, right? Emotional, physical, financial, workplace. So it's— it just creates a general sense of satisfaction and an overall quality of life. And I imagine that that correlates in health systems and other industries when it comes to financial well-being as well.

Yeah, absolutely. That's why I'm so excited to talk about this topic because again, we don't talk about it very much and it is part of overall wellbeing. And so Savannah, you and I met pretty much online. So, you know, it's a small community online healthcare and I, you know, all things nurses and I don't wanna steal too much of your thunder as a nurse, but those are some things that we had in common. So really connected. And then of course on the financial wellbeing side, A lot of times we spend a lot of time on like Megan, like you were saying, on we talk about mental well-being and we've had other guests talk about just lifestyle and other types of well, you know, fitness and things like that. But also the financial part's really important too. So, and you're also doing a startup. So you like hit a lot of our little things, you know, for our listeners that would be interested in this topic. But before we get there, everyone always wants to know songs on your playlist.

Oh man, I saw this one and this is maybe one of the hardest questions. I listen to everything. Everything. I bump Taylor Swift pretty regularly because I have a 3-year-old and a 5-year-old, and it's just like really good feel-good music that I love blasting in the car with them. But if I'm running, I'll switch it up and maybe do like a hip-hop radio mash or even like a Chainsmokers mash. So I'll listen to all types of— I just went to a reggae concert the other weekend, so I love it all. I'm a big music fan.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. I'm big time into music. As well. And what about a life message or mantra? Are there words that you sort of live by that guide who you are?

Yeah, do no harm. That's just something that I've just always really lived by. I mean, the golden rule is really kind of the same thing, but yes, do no harm.

All right, so Savannah, tell— this is sort of like open mic time in terms of sharing about yourself. Share your story, personal, professional, and how you got to where you are today, what you're doing today.

Yeah, definitely. So I knew really from a young age that I always wanted to be a nurse. I've always had my eyes set on that career path, and so really right out college, I studied nursing, went into a nursing program in California at Sacramento State University, started working in the medical field as a nurse, and I was just naturally gravitating towards leadership positions. I was taking on process improvement initiatives. And so, really shortly after I graduated, I went back to school and I got my master's degree in nursing leadership and administration. And I had my eyes set on becoming a CNO of a hospital, a chief nursing officer. And I was climbing the corporate ladder at a well-known organization down here in California, Providence, and I was going that route. And then the beginning of 2020, I had my second daughter and really things kind of started to shift for my husband and I in terms of, okay, what, what does our goals and dreams look like in terms of how involved do we want to be with our families and our kids? And we started becoming really heavily researching investing and more primarily real estate investing. And so we started doing that and I started showcasing— I created a personal brand on social media, The Net Worth Nurse, to kind of show what I was doing early in my stages of getting into my first real estate investment and eventually building up a portfolio big enough that I was able to leave my full-time nursing administration job. But Net Worth Nurse was really my way to touch base and get feedback from nurses about what they're wanting, where are they at with their personal finance and financial wellness. And it led me to create my business partner, who is also a nurse. He was climbing kind of the same corporate ladder within the healthcare system. And I mean, really my biggest transition into management in healthcare is, I mean, I love patient care, but I love supporting nurses even more. And so I loved management in that sense is that I could provide all the resources that nurses needed to do their job. And so Invest Health, which is our startup, it's financial wellness for healthcare professionals, really focuses on that financial wellness component for caregivers.

That's super cool, and I, and I like that journey. And yeah, you know, I can tell you from the perspective, like, when I met my wife, a longtime nurse and single mom, and, you know, it— a lot of her peers, you know, they were all sort of struggling, and, you know, no one ever really taught financial well-being. We started to learn about mental well-being and You know, again, health and things like that, but oftentimes the financial part was left out. So it's great, you know, that you had this vision and you've formed what you did. But before we get a little bit more into that, just on the state of nursing, 'cause I know that you're still in nursing part-time. So there's lots of burnout and staffing shortages. Share, do you have a perspective on that? Like what caused it or what can be done?

Oh man, yes. Well, I was working in management full-time as a nurse throughout the entire COVID pandemic. So since day one, I was dealt with like policies are changing, and then you know twelve hours later it would be like okay now we're doing this, and it was it was pretty craziness in the hospital during COVID especially in a leadership position where I was responsible for implementing all these new policies and protocols that were coming out. I mean a lot of the nurses there was not a lot of agreement, you know, but it really opened my eyes and and literally my office door to hundreds of conversations from nurses, doctors, physical therapists, respiratory therapists. And they're coming into my office and I— the stem, the base of every complaint was always money. Like, it revolved around finances. Like, no matter what we started talking about, it always came down to a lack of growing wealth. Like, what are my options? How can I invest? How can I, you know, gain more control of my financial wellness? And that was really what opened my eyes to the need for a specific product for that. But In regards to kind of the nursing shortage and how that's kind of played out, I mean, it's definitely shifted a bit. There's definitely not as many travelers in the hospital now, but I can tell you I worked a shift yesterday at the hospital and we were short-staffed. And I've been getting texts every day for the last, I think, 3 weeks that they're short in the hospital that I'm working at. And so there are still shortages going on out there. I just don't think that nursing schools are putting out enough nurses to meet the demand of what our country really needs.

Yeah, I agree with your assessment, and I know that we're looking at a lot of tech enablement to sort of help bridge that gap if we're not going to be able to produce as many nurses in a traditional way. You know, we're looking at some technology, whether it's virtual nursing and things like that, to sort of help. And yeah, we've seen a pullback in travelers, but they're still Very much needed as, as, as you're pointing out. Um, so you've stayed in nursing. Uh, can you, can you share why you're still, uh, working in nursing?

Yeah. I mean, I love it. It's, it's just always been a passion and for me going, so now I'm not in a management role. I'm back to bedside. Um, just because I do do it part-time and work on my businesses, um, primarily. Uh, but it really allows me the, I mean, I always am so humble leaving a nursing shift, like just being able to support people when they're at some of their sickest, most painful moments is a really special career path and something that has just even over the last 9 years being in it, it's still like patients will still bring me to tears just hearing their stories and that type of stuff. It's, it's very good for me and my soul to be caring for them in that type of way. And so And I also like to just have a finger on the pulse of the healthcare system, you know, being able to work in it bedside as a nurse and around other nurses. I still get a really good feel of what they're wanting, what they're working through, what their challenges are, their pain points, and how I can help try and support that, even if I'm not a manager now, but still through the products that I'm building.

Yeah, and my, my wife sort of has done something similar where, you know, she was getting her master's and her DNP. And she still worked bedside on a routine basis just to, like you're saying, you know, keep a pulse on things. The humbleness that comes with it, like the grounding that comes with it. And it's something I think it's in the heart of people who choose nursing as a profession that they just, you know, want to care for people. So that's pretty cool. You know, not to put you on the spot, but since we are Digital Voices, you know, from a tech point of view, And I mentioned one already, like with virtual nursing. Have you seen a shift like where you've been in the last 7, 8 years? Have you seen leveraging of technology? Do you think that's—

Yes. I haven't worked, I was working in the pre-op department for the last couple years and I moved to a new unit 'cause I relocated up to Northern California. And the nurses on the staff on this med-surg floor I'm on are wheeling in these huge telemed computer machines from room to room to room, and this infectious disease doctor who is across the country is coming in and talking to every one of these patients, treating them, prescribing antibiotics based on kind of what their conversations— it's pretty crazy the amount of technology. The translator systems are so amazing because a lot of our patients don't speak English, and it's very hard to really adequately care for them when you can't communicate. And so we wheel in these translator machines and A face pops on there, they're communicating, translating back and forth. Yeah, there's been a lot of really cool things that technology has done in the healthcare space that makes nurses' lives easier for sure.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's great to hear. So yeah, let's shift now towards this concept of financial wellness in healthcare. And you've already shared your story a little bit before we get into sort of the startup and things. Anything else, you know, on this journey that brought you to This place?

Yeah. I mean, really just all the conversations that I've had with people. I mean, I really starting my brand on social media was really just to kind of, um, grow, grow a personal brand and a following and, um, use it to build a business. But I had no idea the amount of comments and direct messages and phone calls that I would have with other healthcare professionals that are really struggling with financial wellness. I mean, I have, I would walk into the cath lab and my doctors would know that I invest in real estate and they— my surgeon would straight up tell me, oh, I know nothing about my finances. I don't know what I'm investing in right now. And it would just blow my mind that people, healthcare professionals so highly educated, still aren't really doing anything to gain more control over their finances. I mean, really kind of sitting in the backseat of it instead of taking more ownership and control over it. And I, I think that it really comes down to a lack of education. I mean, you just don't know what you don't know. Um, and that's been something very interesting that I found out.

Yeah, no, I, I'm not surprised by, by what you're sharing. And again, that's, you know, one of the main reasons that I wanted you to, to be our guest and share with, with many who are listening who are in that boat. They're listening right now saying, yeah, that's me. Wait, how did you know? Yeah. So you've been in startup mode for about a year. Tell us How it's going. Give us your— we'll let you practice your elevator speech.

Yeah, no, for sure. So this has kind of been the evolution of a few different companies that I've had— Net Worth Nurse, and then my real estate syndication business that I've built with my husband, Willow Investment Group, where we do real estate syndications and primarily have healthcare professionals as investors in those deals. So this Invest Health has kind of conceptualized from those businesses, but we are a financial wellness platform. Right now we're targeting B2B, so going direct to employers to integrate financial wellness into the benefits for healthcare professionals. So as we started building this product, we initially thought to go B2C so we could go direct to consumer, but then we realized, like, how can we reach nurses on a broad level, you know, healthcare professionals at a scalable level, and really get this information to as many healthcare professionals as possible? And after kind of rolling through that, we realized the B2B approach was where we want to go. And so we're really targeting employers with our product to integrate into their benefit features because the statistics and studies are showing that, you know, people are out there looking for personal financial information, and over 73% of employees are expecting to receive that information directly from their employer. You know, there's almost an expectation now of how benefits have evolved. I mean, mental health being a big one over the last 2 years. Now you don't even really see employers who aren't offering some sort of mental health benefit in some way. And we're really thinking that financial wellness is a big component of that. And so we're really looking to piggyback on everything that mental wellness is integrated into the employee benefit workspace.

Yeah, even on the fitness, for lack of a better term, you know, the fitness benefit, like, you know, many employers are offering Peloton memberships or gym membership reimbursement. And so this is, Something, uh, like overall wellbeing, just equally as important that you have your financial house in order. And so it, it makes a tremendous amount of sense. Can you share a success story or two? Like, you know, uh, obviously we'll, we'll not use the person's real name, but, you know, I'm sure you've impacted some, uh, healthcare professionals already with some of these, uh, companies that you've—

Oh yeah, definitely. So I've ra— I mean, for my real estate syndication business, I've raised over $3.5 million for investors who are wanting to passively invest in real estate deals. And the most of them are healthcare Professionals. So it's been really cool to see healthcare professionals who have no idea about other investment opportunities to get them into these alternative investments. And the returns that we're earning them are superior, far superior than what they've been earning in the stock market, especially over the last couple of years. And so just being able— I mean, just the thank you texts that I get and the referrals from other people. I mean, those are, those are the wins that we're counting.

Yeah, that's awesome. And so if we have you back as a guest in a year or two, where do you hope to be with Invest Health?

So, I mean, well known to healthcare professionals everywhere. I mean, we really want to be the go-to financial wellness platform for healthcare professionals across the country.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. I could definitely see the benefit, and again, why we have you on, the benefit of everyone sort of taking time to Have their— just like we do our annual physical, right, our checkups, uh, we get screened for a wide variety of potential issues, and we have to do the same thing on the financial side in order to make sure, you know, that our future is taken care of, you know, you know, however important that is, uh, to all of us and our families. So that's super, super cool. Look, you're a great leader, Savannah. Obviously, you know, we talked about your nursing, uh, and leadership there, and then we just talked about all the things that you've done sort of in the financial wellbeing side. So I wanna talk about leadership. You took a pretty big risk to do a startup. What are the, you know, you left the safety, right? You could have been a CNO in a couple years. So you left that traditional, you know, work ladder. And what nurse skills though do you draw upon in your startup? There's gotta be some analogies there.

Yeah, tons. And yeah, you mentioned that risk and it's something that I still think about now, right? Building a startup. Man, what would it be like? Like, could I go back? The best thing about nursing is, is it's always needed and you can literally go into any different specialty work setting, different work schedules. I mean, you could work night shift forever if that's what you wanted to. And so the flexibility that nursing provides me is such a huge safety net and it allows me really the flexibility to build this startup. Honestly, the income that we're generating from our real estate investments and that company that we have built has been so significant. successful that it's really allowing me to build this startup and really follow my passion. And it really just goes to show how important financial wellness is because when people are given the financial security to go out and do what they love, then the world is just such a better place. And for me, I was able to build up this business that now is giving me the income to go out and do something that I'm truly passionate about. And it's, it's It's really, really helpful. And something that you mentioned earlier that I, I wanted to make a comment about is healthcare professionals. You would be shocked, like how you mentioned going to the gym regularly. It's kind of a cadence type thing. Like, I can't tell you how many nurses I've talked to who have never done a budget just because they literally do not want to see where all their money is going. They don't want to even look at it. They don't want to know, you know, what's going on in their finances. And that's really the biggest piece of And we kind of play into the whole nursing profession and healthcare profession into our product of integrating assessment prioritization. And so we've built in this whole little model that's really healthcare tied. But yeah, it's been really shocking to see that. And so our product really just gives people the encouragement and the motivation to actually start diving into that, to have more control over that. So, but yeah, leaving, leaving the bedside, I mean, I haven't left completely, but it really just comes down to being able to Yeah, that's awesome.

And you're right, the financial literacy, not just in healthcare, but as we know, it's much broader than that, is, is not as, uh, high as we might, might hope and think, and for a wide variety of reasons. And so it's great that there's individuals like you. And I like the fact that you're using the language of the clinical team, the nurse. We're used to, yeah, a SOAP or an assessment or whatever.

SBAR.

And, uh, and so then they can relate. That, that's really, uh, that's really good. I— that'll really help, I'm sure, as you've seen. So what were some new skills you had to develop that you didn't think you would need as you did a startup?

Yeah. Um, I know I don't even think I answered your original question, but like the organizational skills, prioritization. Um, definitely when you're nursing and you get your 5 patients for the day, you're immediately assessing prioritization. What needs to come first? Whose room you're going to first? What are you bringing them, what you're watching for. I mean, you're really coordinating all aspects of the patient care. I mean, on a day-to-day working as a nurse, you're coordinating the doctors, you're coordinating physical therapy, respiratory therapy, case management, social work. You're talking to their families and making sure that they have the care integrated for when they go back home. So there's a lot going on. I mean, different studies that need to be done, labs drawn, medications given. So there's a lot of management in the nursing profession and you're forced to prioritize, which is helpful for sure when building a startup. Things I was not prepared for is, I mean, it's a different language for sure. I have had to learn so many different terms in the startup space, especially with tech and with— no, primarily with tech, the VC space. I feel like my real estate syndications And the capital raising that I do there has given me some familiarity in that respect. But it's mostly, it mostly comes down to the tech. That's been a big learning curve. But what we're doing is we're just bringing in experts, you know, people that we trust, referrals, friends of friends who are in this space and bouncing ideas off them, having meetings with them. We're always bringing tech people into the evolvement of our product. Just to make sure that we have additional input.

That's great. Savannah, what advice would you have for others thinking of launching a startup? So they're listening to you and they could hear the passion in your voice and they're like, I got a great idea too. I want to copy her. What advice would you give?

Start reading some books on it. Start listening to podcasts. That's such a good first step. Listening to kind of some founder stories has been really cool. I'm on a few different like startup email chains and newsletters. And so I get those coming in and you can kind of see what's going on in the ecosystem. And it's— it gives you a better perspective of what that world is like because it's— if it's new for you, it's a little bit different, but it's really fun. I love it. I, I always tell people it's a little bit different than the real estate space. I've been going to real estate conferences for a while now and unfortunately there's a lot of ego in there, right? You know, people are out there to make a lot of money. In the real estate space. And so that can kind of be the big topics at the conversation at the conferences. When you go to conferences for this, for startups, oh my goodness, like hearing from these founders how passionate they are to solve problems and to see these pain points and create a solution. It's so— the innovation there is really— it's so awesome. It's so motivating and encouraging. I love being in the environment.

Yeah. So that's nice that there is this ecosystem out there to help people who want to get something started like yourself. That's awesome. What was like the one or two of the biggest obstacles that you hit? So you're excited, you go to these conferences, you read, you listen, you're learning a bunch of stuff, but surely something popped up. What was one of those things that popped up and how did you overcome it?

So definitely for us, it was raising capital for the venture. So as we started doing this and when we first set out to raise capital back in August, of 2022, we went through an accelerator program, Newchip, and we were going through it with the intent to raise capital. And it just— the environment for raising capital at that time was not good, especially as a first-time founder. And we were pre-product, pre-revenue. And so, I'd have great conversations with investors. I was hitting the pavement, booking all the meetings, talking to all the right people, and there was so much interest, but they wanted to see revenue and they wanted to see a product. And so, So, it took a couple of months for myself and my founding team to kind of come back to the drawing table and being like, all right, you know, we're going to have to bootstrap. Us as founders are going to need to invest another $60K, $90K into this for another 6-month runway and get us users on the platform, get us some LOIs, get the product live in the App Store. And now we're doing that. So, we're not at the point where we're going to go out and start raising capital again. But that was a big, a big learning curve for us.

All right, so you're a mom, you're a nurse, uh, you're a founder, you got a couple different things going on helping people with financial well-being. How do you recharge your batteries and remain fresh?

Oh man, for me, yoga, meditation. I am super picky about what I eat. I do juicing. Um, I, I really start taking— when I take care of myself, then I'm in a position to really grow this, take care of others. And so for me, that's, that's always my health, making sure I'm getting a workout in, meditation, and eating right.

All right. I'm going to pull— I'm going to, I'm going to throw you a couple of curveballs here. So, because I was just thinking as we're going through this, you know, this is super, super practical for people. And so let's just say you have a listener. I'm going to, I'm going to use the sort of profile persona of my wife before we got married. So let's just say a listener out there is a single mom, single dad, and they're struggling and they know they need conceptually, they, oh yeah, I need to invest, you know, the minimal amount I put in, if I even do for a 401 match, you know, it's not gonna be the end-all be-all. What's the first step? And they're struggling. They're not like they have a lot of extra income. What's the first, like, so they were talking to you right now. What's the first step? For them to get towards financial wellness?

Oh man, I have the— I just had this with my sister last week. So it's assessing, right? So looking at your, your budget, your income and expenses, your P&L, your profit and loss for yourself, right? Like you need to look on a spreadsheet where your money is going and where it's coming in first. And then once you have that information, then you're in a position where you see, okay, now what can I do with this extra money? And then there's It's not a one-size-fits-all. Unfortunately, there's not a clear-cut answer. Everyone's situation is so, so different. And that's why, I mean, even in our app, we have such one-to-one calls with CFPs where you can go over a personalized financial plan because it really is different for people because people have different goals. You know, some people want to get a lot of money so they can go out and travel. You know, some people want to generate a lot of income and expenses or Investing so that they can walk away from their full-time job. There's a lot of differences there. So always start with assessing, creating a budget, and that's always the first step. And like I said, I'm always shocked at how many people haven't done that first step.

Yeah, I know that as well. I have a little bit of background in what you're, what you're doing, what you're talking about. And it is, it is interesting, but there's no shame, right? So if people are listening and you've not done it, take that first step assessment. Not hard to do. You go to your bank accounts, you can file, you can download in a CSV format, Excel, make a nice little budget. You know, definitely the first step. What about— so it may be the similar answer. So Savannah, one last curveball for you. The mature couple, because you mentioned I work with some docs and they even— they were like, hey, so let's just say it's a nurse or physician and their partner have a small Partner, spouse, little family. And they're like, yeah, they're thinking ahead. Like, and okay, so assessment, you're going to give me the same answer. I know, I know that on the first part, the assessment, anything, anything else? Let's just say, let's say that they were far enough along that they had a budget, like, so they had a little spreadsheet and they know what their income, their outflow expenses are every month. And they've got a little bit extra. What's sort of the next step?

So I'm big on real estate investing. I mean, real estate investing has historically outperformed the majority of other asset classes. It has always outperformed the stock market, yet the majority of people throw all their money into the stock market under 401s and 403s thinking that it's safe. But everyone— I mean, if you've been in it over the last couple years, you can see how unsafe it is. I mean, even big banks that people have their money in, like Silicon Valley Bank, you know, they, they take your money and do other stuff with it. So it is never really safe.

Right.

People are very nervous about real estate investing, but that's really what I do and that's my bread and butter. And so for me, it always kind of starts with education of looking at what the returns look like. So when you're evaluating deals, you can understand what are good ones. If you've never been an investor and you don't understand what an ROI is or an AAR, you know, a cash-on-cash return, understanding those concepts first will allow you to go out and better evaluate different investment opportunities. But if you're in a position where you have a good chunk of capital, I have seen people do insane things in the real estate space, just growing it at a great rate. And that's, that's why we started doing the syndications is because we started investing in it so heavily. And then we got all, a lot of our friends and family were like, hey, how can we join forces with you and become partners? And we didn't even know it at a time, but it's a real estate syndication. It's people pooling together their resources to go out and buy a complex that they couldn't buy on their own. And so now what we do is we go out and buy apartment complexes and people passively invest in our deals and then they can receive some of those amazing returns from real estate without even having to be super active. I mean, what you're doing as an investor at that point is vetting out the operators, looking at the deal. And for us, I mean, most investors don't even know opportunities like that exist out there. Um, so just being able to share different opportunities like that is, is big for, for people in a position where they got money ready to invest.

Yeah, you don't have to like start your own company, do your own thing, although you can, but there's organizations like what you're talking about, what you have done, and you can just, you know, find a trusted, uh, organization like yours and say, all right, you handle the— you handle all the details for me. Uh, I'm gonna keep doing my— what I'm doing today, but Uh, so you get this money working for you on the side. Um, that's great. Yeah. Not to pitch this guy's book, but I can't even pronounce his name anymore, but Rich Dad Poor Dad.

Oh yeah. Robert Kiyosaki. Yeah.

That's what I go to. Uh, that's a great book if people out there, uh, you know, wanted to also learn more. And of course they can find you, Savannah. We'll put, uh, information about, uh, your organization in the show notes. Super, super informative. I mean, that's why we're doing this, just to be super practical for people. Um, You know, because it is part of overall well-being. So we talked about a lot of stuff from nursing and tech and founders and leadership, all sorts of great stuff. Financial— we covered some financial literacy items actually during our time together. So what did I miss or what should you double down on? So I'll leave you with the last word, whatever you'd like to share.

Yeah, I would just say if you're interested in anything, if like you're listening to this episode and you're like, oh, I want to learn more about financial literacy, I want to learn about real estate or the startup Space like podcasts. I know I said this originally, but podcasts are the go-to for that and conferences and networking events. Go on to Eventbrite and see if there's meetup groups or anything that you could attend like that. Because once you start networking with people, and even if you're new in the space and you're like, I don't even know what to say to these people, just go out and say, you know, why you're there, you're interested in it, what are you looking to do? Um, the, the space is very receptive. I've noticed when I started working with a lot of other people, that you start inching way closer towards your goals and you start attracting the people that you need in your life to be successful and to create these great relationships. Yeah, I would say that. Put yourself out there.

That's awesome. So, Savannah, thank you so much for being our guest.

Awesome.

Yeah, this was terrific. And to our listeners, you know, we hope you found this super valuable because we talk about all sorts of other Uh, wellbeing aspects on Digital Voices and technology and leadership. And this was certainly the first time we sort of went down this, uh, the financial literacy and financial wellbeing. And, and I know I learned a lot and I hope you did as well. So thank you for listening.

Awesome. Thanks for having me.

Thank you for listening to Digital Voices Podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service. And leave a rating and review. And most importantly, thanks again for listening.