ICT Leadership Abroad (ft. David Wall)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences.

And now, your host, Ed Marx.

Welcome to another drop of Digital Voices. Gonna have a lot of fun today because this is our first Digital Voices with a guest from Ireland. And so Dave Wall, welcome to Digital Voices.

Thank you very much, Ed. I'm delighted to be here.

So Dave is the CIO, and I promise I'm gonna get this right, Tallaght University Hospital, and it's in Ireland, as I've already talked about. And he's an innovator and an influencer, and you'll get to know him here in a bit as we jump in. And before we do, just quick to Megan, have you ever been to Ireland or familiar with Irish culture?

I've never been to Ireland. I would love to go. On my father's side, our ancestors were Scotch-Irish.

Finlay was my It's a lovely, lovely place. I've had the pleasure to have been there a couple of times, and I love all things Ireland. So, Dave, I'm so excited that you're our guest. And I think we've only met one another through LinkedIn and really just sort of the media channels. And, and I followed some of the work that you've done. And so I was really eager to have you on as a guest. So again, just really excited. And the first question I have Question for you is, what is your favorite thing about Ireland? I ask everyone is, what are the songs on your playlist? So when you chill to some music, what do you listen to?

Oh, that goes back to my youth now. So I would have been a big soft rock Bon Jovi fan. You know, New Jersey would have been the first vinyl I would have got properly, you know. And then obviously the likes of AC/DC, Guns N' Roses, all the way through to a very eclectic kind of mix with like the likes of Shania Twain. Obviously huge U2 fan. Their song I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For is a kind of anthem for my work. I'm still searching. So even to, uh, the likes of So I'm still very welded to those artists. So if I'm out walking or I need a bit of headspace, you know, just put that on. Bryan Adams, that kind of stuff. So just his first album was just brilliant. So yeah, that would be the most kind of features, along with local artists, like Scottish ones like Texas, and lots of our Irish artists like Picture This as well, The Script, et cetera. So very eclectic mix.

Yeah, no, I love it. And I'm a big fan of some of the bands that you've mentioned as well. And maybe you've already covered it with I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For, but what is your passion life message or mantra?

I suppose from a kind of professional perspective, it's just what I try to do and instill in my staff is that we are here for the patient at all times. So everything, even though people might think if you're working in an ICT department, digital department, you're not directly dealing with the patient. So first and foremost is to always bear that in mind that we are here for the patient. So it's very much about patient-centered care. Secondly is that we are a professional organization and at all times we act, see, and look professionally in everything we do. And what that helps to do is raise the standards among all of us and raises the standards and pushes everybody to be the best they can be. I'm a big believer in empowering people, empowering my staff, setting the direction, but letting them do it their way and achieving those results. So, very much, and I'm very lucky to have a great team around me in my current job who are able to carry out that mission and vision and empower their staff. So, really, that's what it is. Outside of work, it's very much the opposite. I hate change. I'm very easygoing. My wife, if I change something, my wife changes something, I go absolutely mad. So, I'm a bit of a paradox that way.

That's really interesting. You know, I never thought about that. And I might be similar. Yeah. In the workplace, you're all about change and transformation and leading, you know, innovation and things like that. And then, but maybe in other areas of life, you aren't quite like that. I haven't really thought about it, but I might be in the same spot.

Yeah, absolutely. And healthcare is very important. Like, you know, my mother worked in healthcare. I married a midwife. My sister's a nurse. 2 of my nieces are nurses. So, you know, healthcare runs very strong in our family in that sense of public service. That's really cool.

Cool. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more. So how did you become a CIO? So what was your sort of upbringing? And then, you know, as you already mentioned, you know, the healthcare sort of runs in the blood of the family, but you melded technology with that within healthcare.

Yeah, I suppose I took a very non-traditional route towards ICT. I was fortunate, I'll admit, to be in the right place at certain times. So originally I would have started— I've worked in healthcare all my life, first and foremost to say. I view myself as a business manager with IT skills as opposed to an IT IT manager with business skills. I would've started in my first hospital, I worked in maternity hospital, and I actually started at an entry-level position, an administrative position. Then I moved to a major adult hospital there. I originally started in the procurement department, and then an opening became available in the IT department. So at that time, the IT department was only getting up and running. We're talking around probably 1990, 1991 here. My first job, for those people out there who might remember, was changing the tapes in an old PDP. So for anybody who doesn't know what a PDP was, it's about half the size of your living room or the full size of your living room. And you had these massive tapes and there was 22 tapes. And every morning and evening, I had to change the tapes and carry them from one end of the hospital to the other. So my arms were quite strong when I was younger. So the IT department, so I was very lucky then to get into the ground floor in healthcare IT at that stage. And then as the IT department grew, I grew with that department in the hospital and moved up to middle management, kind of senior management positions. Then I moved from then to my first kind of head of IT role in a major pediatric hospital in Ireland. So, I spent 14 years in pediatrics and absolutely loved it. It's my most favorite time. And then I moved to Tallaght University Hospital. So that would be one of the big 5 hospitals in Dublin to my current CIO position. And I suppose at night, so what I would've done is I moved to all those positions, I would've studied at night. And I have to say, I have to recommend to people that is one of the best experiences. If you can have a work experience and then study at night and bring the 2 together, you get so much more richer experience and end up so much more as a better person and better manager. So I would have done my certificates. I actually then took general. So I did a degree in business information and management. Then I would have done a master's in health services management. Then I've done diplomas in strategy, innovation, and change. So I've managed to learn the IT skills in a non-traditional way and bring mostly the business skills. Hence, and my role now covers variety of e-health and digital, as well as information governance, which is equally important now, the whole compliance side, as well as then being responsible for our medical records department currently. So So that's kind of my career journey over the last 20, 30 years. As I say, in a very non-traditional, starting at the bottom and working my way up to the current position.

Yeah, no, that's beautiful. And there's, like you said, there's a lot of things you learn along that journey that can't be replicated in any other way but starting that way, doing it. That's cool. I wanna talk about healthcare in Ireland. So I imagine most of our listeners are not as familiar with healthcare in Ireland. And so can you share a bit about Tallaght University in terms of size And the services that the health system provides?

Yeah, so I suppose speaking about my own hospital at the moment, so Tallaght University Hospital, the kind of activity figures, we have about 3,500 staff spread across from a number of countries all over the world. Our hospital is on a 30-acre campus with a number of offsite and community facilities. We have about 250,000 outpatient visits a year, 52,000 ED attendances a year, 30,000 day cases, 17,000 inpatient admissions. So that's just to give you a size of the activity that on on the current site. Then our kind of offsite facilities are an offsite outpatient facility, an offsite community radiology. We have a couple of step-down facilities down where we move patients who are ready for discharge to when they need to be. And we're planning a few more offsite facilities. So that would be the general size. From an ICT perspective, the ICT department is approximately about 50 staff, our digital eHealth department spread across a number of teams managing our project management office, our EPR program, our application support, our IT infrastructure, service desk, and BI. Healthcare in Ireland then is a kind of two-tier system. So we have a fully funded public healthcare system. So healthcare is essentially free in Ireland. Now you can opt to buy private health insurance, and approximately about half the population have opted to that. And you can use that private health insurance in a public hospital, or you can use it solely in a private hospital. So there are some fully dedicated private-only hospitals in the country, and there are some public hospitals that carry out a mixture of public and private work. And And consultants are allowed work across, have been up until recently allowed contract across both. Any new consultants now coming in, similar to the NHS now, will only be allowed a private or public only contract. So, because that has led to its own problems, as you can imagine, you can go down the private route, jump the queue and get seen quicker. It's obviously what you would call purely not-for-profit. We're 100% funded by the government in Tallaght University Hospital. We do raise some of our own revenue through car parking charges, meals, et cetera, and all that. But the majority of our funding comes through the government.

Yeah, that's really interesting. And just curious, you know, is there a difference in clinical outcome or are you aware of any difference when it comes to public or private?

No, not necessarily. Even though you might go down the private route, that's mostly for to jump the waiting lists. You know, the quality of care in the public hospitals is very high. We do have some national programs So for example, we have a very strong national cancer program here. So if you're diagnosed with cancer, you're put on a specific pathway that accelerates your path through the system so that, because obviously with certain conditions, as you know, you can't wait. So, and because you have the consultants working across both entities, you know, you've still got that high quality clinical care. So there's no evidence to suggest that the outcomes in private hospitals, and as well as that, a lot of the private hospitals, some of them wouldn't do as much of the complex procedures as the public hospitals because being a private hospital, they're for-profit, so they only do a certain cohort of care and want to see a certain cohort of patients. Whereas in the public hospital, we take everything that comes through the door, you know, and have to deal with it. So, you know, in fairness to all my colleagues across the entire Irish healthcare sector, I have to say the quality of care has always been high. And everybody always speaks so highly of Irish nurses as well, Irish nursing care, not because I'm married to one who's now a midwife. She gets a bit annoyed about that because she's a midwife now, not a nurse. My sister, the quality of care is always excellent, I have to say.

Yeah, that's what I figured, but it's just, I just had to ask because it's very curious because, in the United States, it's a little different, obviously, the way our healthcare is set up and always looking at outcomes and what makes some of the differences.

We do look at them here and the outcomes are good. It's just, as I would say, there's no difference between the two systems.

That's great. That's the way it should be. How much interaction do you have with your peers across the UK? I'm curious. I know that HIMSS and CHIME may be active and helping in the UK.

I'm not sure.

But, with other CIOs, Do you talk frequently with other CIOs, compare notes, or in the UK and/or more broadly in the EU?

Yeah, well, certainly within Ireland, the CIOs would speak a lot. One of the roles I carry out is there's an organization in Ireland called the Health Management Institute of Ireland, which is an organization a lot of hospitals and healthcare entities join. I am the European IT representative on that. So across Europe, then there's— that links into a group called the European Association of Hospital Managers. Within that, there's an IT working group. So I would speak— I'm part of that working group. So yes, annually, about 4 or 5 times a year, we would meet and discuss European topics. Just pre-COVID, about 2 years ago, we actually hosted, and I was one of the organizers of the EA, European Association of Hospital Managers, annual IT conference, which we held in Dublin. So 40 different delegates from a variety of UK countries came to that, hosted them in Dublin, showed them the Irish healthcare system, talked about a variety of European topics, et cetera. So that is very good. to my own hospital. We're currently looking at a few kind of studies now with partners in Portugal, particularly our use of data and monetization of data around that. So that dialogue certainly goes on and there's very strong research across the EU, across countries on using healthcare data. The UK, apart from going to conferences, not so much with the UK, but again, during the HSE cyberattack last year, there would've been a lot of dialogue and sharing of information because again, as you know, that's one of the big things at the moment. So certainly, and previous to that when WannaCry hit healthcare as well, In fairness to our UK colleagues, we're very good at sharing information with us. So while it's not formal, there are certain linkages there with the NHS.

Yeah, no, that's great. I figured as much. But again, with this podcast, for all of our listeners, we're all curious about what happens in other countries since our audience is largely US-based. And so it's always curious to compare notes. So let's switch a little bit, and let's just talk digital strategy. I know that when you began, you were still on paper. Have you fully converted? Where are you in terms of digital transformation?

So I suppose we have a number of different some programs in that area. So I mentioned earlier our EPR program. So that's one area we're currently digitizing. And I suppose the strategy we've taken there is we've gone down a best-of-breed route. So we've decided to retain some of our existing systems. We supplement that with a number of other specific systems. So as part of our EPR program, we put in a new order communications results reporting system, a new infection control system. We've put in a theater EPR. We're just about to finalize our pharmacy EPMA system. So as well as our existing systems then, so we're tying them all together through our integration engine. And that's layered over with a single kind of EPR platform, which is called Evolve from Kainos, which is originally an Irish company. So we're tying those systems. So what we've done there is we've digitized those areas. So our ED, our ICU, our CCU, our theater are all digital. And we still have an inpatient chart. We launched the first phase of our EPR last year, which was bringing that single view of the patients to everybody, digitize some of the existing forms. Literally just yesterday, spent the whole week now in a workshop planning phase 2 of that, which will see us planning to digitize all our inpatient patient documentation over the next year to 2 years. And also, as I say, put in the pharmacy and EPMA solution, as well as robotic pharmacy dispensing. So that's where we are on the kind of EPR stream. Then in parallel with that, we have what we call our eHealth stream. We have about 40 different projects there, which is looking at other complementary solutions within the hospital. So for example, when we went down the EPR route, and because we were going for best of breed, we recognized that we needed a single sign-on solution because clinicians didn't want to be logging in to numerous systems different times. So we did So we did an SSO pilot. We found we saved the average nurse 59 minutes per day logging in. So that's time that can be released back to the patient. So now we've just literally earlier this week signed our single sign-on solution to roll that out in the hospital. So that, we've made a huge investment in workstations on wheels, Wi-Fi and everything, because again, the feedback from the staff was, Dave, there's no great point having an all-singing, all-dancing EPR if we can't access it and access it quickly. So I And we've virtualized everything, so it's mobile as well. So we have a whole infrastructure modernization program going along, complement our EPR program. And then on our eHealth side, we're looking at other solutions. So we want our patients, because we're on a major campus and off-campus, to have the same experience no matter where they go. So in terms of kiosk check-in, patient portal, other kind of initiatives as well, so that we're really maximizing the use of our resources within the hospital. So, and we've a whole then, now that we have this platform in, but then we our whole, what we call intelligent-led healthcare stream. So we're putting in our— upgrading our data warehouse so that we— and we're going to put upgrading our BI platform so that now we'll be ready to leverage that data from the EPR and from all of the other solutions. So I could go through them all, but we'd be here for the next hour. But that's just a small flavor of the different kind of things we're doing, because it's not just about one thing in my mind. You have to listen to the feedback and enable people and support As I say, if you're putting in an EPR, no good having an all-singing, all-dancing EPR if people can't get to it, can't access it quickly, can't use it.

Yeah, Dave, no, good insights. And I'm picking up between the lines a lot of the different things that you're doing in terms of, you know, you're listening to the feedback. You're not all about the bright shiny object. You're about like making all this technology really useful to the organization. So really good leadership things there. And I do wanna pivot to leadership, but before we get there, I know in 2016 you were already talking, this is 6 years ago, you were already talking telehealth. Home health, patient engagement. That's sort of unique, right? Those are things that people are, many people are only talking about now. What gave you that sort of insights, you know, 6, 7 years ago? And then we'll pivot towards, you know, where are we headed long-term since then?

Oh, I suppose that's a good question. What gave me the insights? And I suppose one of the things, there's a couple of different things I'd put down to that. One is my kids. The reason I put that down is when I got my iPhone first, my youngest child cracked my iPhone without me showing him how or how to do it. how to use it or telling him the PIN code. And he was about 5 at the time.

Right.

So that's the first. You're wondering, how the hell did he manage to do that? The second thing is looking at my kids and the snowflake generation, as mine would be called, have never been shown how to use a device. I'm always watching them. They want a consumer experience. They want to have something that's easy to use, that's intuitive, that has minimal instruction. So they give me a lot of thought, if you like, then I always want to look at other industries because healthcare, no matter what anybody says, is not different from other industries. So you look at airlines, things like, you know, what people are talking about now, care command centers. That's essentially what you do in an airport control tower where you're managing, you know, the planes landing. And again, yes, I was talking about then. Then you look at supermarkets and you see self-service. Now I go into my local supermarket, I pick up my wand, do my shopping into my shopping bag, wand, unless I'm selected for a check, a security check, I'm out of there and people are still queuing. So what I try and do is bring those experiences from other industries into healthcare. And things like, you know, if you're going away, you're booking your airline flight or booking your hotel, that's all— they are so far ahead of us, you know. And I don't subscribe to this view that because in healthcare you're dealing with 0 to 110-year-olds that people won't pick it I don't agree with that. There is a gray generation out there that is very IT literate, that wants this kind of service. So it's really looking at what is being done in other industries, you know, and how that— I'm always thinking, how can that— so if I go to a conference and there's different healthcare streams, I'll spend some of my time with the healthcare stream, but I will go to the other industry streams to find out what it is they're doing, because they're always ahead of us. Because, you know, you've got that— I know you have that analogy over in the US about the oil tanker and healthcare, you know, how long it takes for an oil to turn around is a bit like how long it takes to make change in healthcare. You know, it does take time, but I wouldn't say no different from any other industry. So I always think you have to be open to learning. You know, you have to learn. And there's this, I think it's analogy of the great white shark. If the great white shark stops moving, they die because they have to move to stay alive. And it's the same. If you're not learning all the time, you're not open to new ideas, then you're not going to progress your organization and you're not going to introduce, and you have to push the boundaries. That would be really what it's about.

Those are really great insights. I'm just smiling because, you know, on the— well, you sound like me in terms of the things I've been always talking about. But my kids, yeah, people say, Ed, how'd you get involved with social so early? You know, whether it's Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook or MySpace back in the day, it's my kids. My kids really pushed my technology envelope. I have to give them a lot of credit. And then, yeah, you've got to be constantly learning. You can't ever sit down on your laurels. That's why I like the fact that you went to night school. You did whatever you needed to do. And then looking at other industries. So I love it. And the whole analogy about spending more time in other industries, not just healthcare, is really golden. So, I mean, those are some really, really good points there.

And that's what I would encourage anybody who wants to become a CIO in healthcare or is on that journey the same as myself, is you open your mind up, you know, and don't be afraid to push the boundaries and don't be afraid to ask questions and introduce yourself to somebody at a conference. The amount of knowledge sharing I've got from other people has just been phenomenal. Like, you know, so people are there and I'm always happy I'm happy to share my knowledge as well. You know, so we have to learn off each other as well.

Yeah, totally. I know that for myself, I don't think I've come up with anything original. It's just been networking.

That's the thing. Nothing I've done is— that's the thing, you know, your class, and it's great to be called an innovator and it's great to be called these things. And maybe it's innovative to bring something that's in one industry into another. Absolutely. That can be class innovation. But, you know, you're just looking at what's out there and seeing how it can be used in your industry. We are an industry and we are a business. We are in the business of providing healthcare to the highest quality. You know, so even though we're a not-for-profit public sector, you should always have a private sector mindset. That's the other thing I'd say is you always have to be looking and learning, but have that approach to it. You know?

That's golden. And the other thing I've been focused on lately is challenging my team to say, what if, you know, the board said we're— we need something different? If you were the person coming in or the consulting firm or whomever coming in to displace your what would you think about? And then why aren't we doing it?

Exactly. And that's one of the learns. We're lucky enough to have a partnership with Amazon Web Services in Tallaght because one of their data centers, they built one of their data centers, first data centers near us. And they engaged the hospital with a couple of different programs running with them. One of the things I learned from that is they brought us in and explained their methodology. So when they come up with a new idea, they start at the end. So they say, right, what would we like? So we would like a device that you can speak into, that you could connect to your smart home, that would do play music, etc. Bingo, you end up with Alexa. But it's that thinking that, you know, they reverse engineer everything. So again, that's exactly the same. I would say to my staff, like I say, okay, come to me with the problem, but come to me with the solutions as well. I am not divinely inspired. I am here to help you. If you need me to secure funding, if you need me to knock heads together, or you need me to do something, I will do that. But I want you to think about the solution and come to me with the solution and options, because then they will learn. We talked about our kids. It's exactly the same analogy of kids, managing a 4-year-old to managing a 40-year-old in your office. It's the same. You're trying to teach your kids. And I heard a great thing recently, a psychologist was talking about kids. And when they're young, they're so uninhibited and they will try everything till about 8, 9. And then we try and say, no, don't jump off the tree or don't climb that tree. And then you're almost taking that out of them. And what we have to do is try and get back to that. You know, of encouraging that free thinking. And, you know, so that's just the way I would work.

Yeah. It's funny too, because, you know, again, there's no new ideas oftentimes, uh, maybe different ways of thinking about things. And so I read somewhere about this gentleman leader who had on his door, don't bring problems, bring solutions. So I adopted that as a mantra and I did that at work. And then I started bringing that at home too. So one day my oldest daughter at the time, she was Probably nine. She came. She said, "So I was really into sport of triathlon, and I would do triathlon with my oldest son and my daughter." And my daughter came up and said, "Dad, I have a problem, but I have a solution." And she said, "I don't like triathlons. I really don't want to do them anymore, but I can do taekwondo instead." And so I was brilliant. It's like yes. And of course, she went on and did great things in taekwondo. But but yeah. Yeah, we're not divinely inspired, as you mentioned. And so it's good to really think about solutions and then bring up the issue and then some ideas around how to solve those. So that's great. This is just full of— I've already got like a list of 10 different things that you said, Dave, that I think would be really helpful to other people. What about advice for generations below us? So you and I, we are mid-career. And we're raising up the next generation of leaders that'll displace us. What advice would you share for some of those generations below us?

That's a hard one. And again, it's something I think about because the workforce of the future that's coming through is a very different workforce to what you and I would be used to. As I said, I look at my children and they're more prone to switch. They have no problem switching allegiance from one thing to another. They are, if the service doesn't meet their needs, you know, they're quite happy to call that out or go elsewhere. They want, as I said, this seamless experience. But what I say to my kids, and they look at me and they go, Dad, for God's sake. You know, I do fear for them though, because I think they have somewhat of a closet experience. And as parents and as society, I think we, for everything that's gone on in the world in the last number of years, I think they've led a somewhat sheltered experience. When you think of the things I got up to as a kid, and I myself are guilty of this, I would say to the young generation is get out there and experience life, experience things, make mistakes. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. But the important thing, as I go back to what I said earlier, is learn from those mistakes. Because there's a huge fear of failure. And, you know, the pressures are on children so much these days. Costs are increasing. You know, here in Ireland, they just have this thing which is called our Leaving Cert, which is like the kids have left— I think your center would be high school. So now they're going to college and they've got their points and they're so afraid of making the wrong decision in life or picking the wrong college course. And I'm there to my kids, it's okay if you don't like it. I'm a prime example. And they have lots of examples of that. So don't be afraid to make mistakes. Don't be afraid to learn. Get out there and experience life is what I would say.

Yeah. Very, again, very insightful about, yeah, sort of how our generation, current generation is being raised and some of the things that you can do to sort of get more experiences. Take risks is basically what you're talking about. Don't be afraid of making mistakes. Absolutely.

We have a phrase here called mollycoddling, which means don't coddle your children. Let them off. And it is difficult, as I say, with— there's such a change in society as when I was a child. You know, my mother would just let you off for the day and you'll be fine. Come back when you're hungry. You know, it's just very different. So we ourselves have to be conscious of that. Yeah.

No, really, really good stuff. Look, we chatted a bunch. We talked about your story. We talked about healthcare in Ireland. Then we talked a lot about digital strategy and certainly a lot about leadership. Did we miss anything or anything that you want to double down on as we end our time?

I suppose the one thing I suppose to chat to just finish on, I think, is innovation. I think it's core to what we do going forward. I think we have to be innovative because there are still things to be uncovered. There are still things to be invented out there. We're fortunate in Tallaght now, we have an innovation hub. And within the digital department, we have a thing called the Digital Living Lab. So we stand up a number of digital kind of pilots around that. And we've done a real great one with AI on stroke thrombectomy. And we have a few other AI ones. So again, what I would say is you should have your, your hand in several different things. Just doing one thing, as I said earlier, we had our infrastructure modernization program, our desktop program, our e-health program, our EPR. Innovation is just as important. So that's certainly something I would encourage people is to set aside time for innovation, try and stand up an innovation hub. You need to also build an ecosystem. So build partnerships with academia and build partnerships with industry, 'cause you can't do this on yourself. And again, you'd be surprised, they want those partnerships 'cause we're the ones with the IP in healthcare. They have a lot to learn from us. They need a test bed. So certainly I would be pushing that. The other thing I feel very strongly about is professional development of you as an individual. You should never stop learning. You need to keep professionally developing yourself and your staff. Your staff are the most— I would not be where I am today if it wasn't for the different staff I had over the years. So look after your staff, empower your staff, develop your staff. Like one of the best things I love, this might sound strange, is when one of my staff comes to the door and said, Dave, I'm leaving. They're leaving for a better job. But the first thing to say is, I actually don't want to leave, and thank you for everything you've taught me, but I've got this opportunity. And I say, take it. So, when you hear something like that, I just love it. So, innovation, look after your staff, and invest in yourself, I think would be the 3 kind of key things we could finish up.

Yeah, Dave, I love this. There's a podcast, people don't see my face, but I'm just smiling. 'Cause, uh, everything you say really resonates with me. It's good reminders and, and some new things as well about what it's all about. You know, at the end of the day, we are leaders and we have to develop our people, our staff, ourselves. And I love the idea on this innovation hub, innovation lab, partnering, you know, all those things. This has been so rich. I think we crammed like 3 hours worth of like great leadership, digital insights, and a little bit about, you know, Irish. Healthcare in 30 minutes. So I so appreciate you. You're an amazing leader. I'm so glad we had this chance to chat, and and I look forward to any sort of future interactions we might have in Dublin or in the United States.

Absolutely, and I have to say thank you so much. I'm delighted, and it's great to finally put a face to the name. I've followed your career for a long time. You've been an inspiration to me for for many years. So thank you as well.

Well, thank you. And that concludes this drop. I hope you enjoyed. enjoyed a little bit of our— a different accent for sure. So, Dave, again, thank you so much. And thank you to Megan, our amazing producer.

Thank you, Megan. Yes, absolutely. Thank you for listening to Digital Voices podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review.

And most importantly, thanks again for listening.