Mindfulness in Medicine (ft Dr Anjali Bhagra)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marx.

Hey everyone, it's Ed. Welcome to another edition of Digital Voices. Thank you so much for making us number 8 in the world on Apple Podcasts for technology. And the main reason that we've climbed to number 8 is because of fabulous guests like Dr. Anjali Bhagra. Anjali, welcome to Digital Voices.

Hey, Ed, thanks for having me.

I'm so excited because we met not that long ago in Nashville at VIVE in February, and we were lucky we got to sit next to each other and realize, oh, we had all these things in common. From sports to music to a bunch of different things and our passion in healthcare. So I was like, I have to have you on Digital Voices. So thank you so much. But the most important question we ask the entire time that we're together are what songs are on your playlist?

Well, I love that question. And before I share my playlist, I hope your rankings get boosted after this episode and they don't take a nosedive. But with that, so my playlist, it really depends on who I'm hanging out with and what I'm doing. When I'm with my parents who live in India, my playlist is back in the '60s and '70s, all the Bollywood hits.

Yeah.

My dad and my mom are the reason why I grew up loving music and a very diverse range of, I would say, playlists. But then I would say forever playlist for me is '80s and '90s and slow rock. but sprinkled some metal in there. So I would say Metallica, Guns N' Roses, Pink Floyd, U2, which I know both you and I are big fans of.

Yeah.

Along with Def Leppard, Jon Bon Jovi, just the good old times. I think it never gets old. However, I absolutely am a diehard fan of Shania Twain. And I know you know that, but I would also add Sheryl Crow. So that's like my forever list. I would say more recently, I listen to a lot of music with my boys. I have 2 boys, 17 and 21. The 21-year-old has just graduated from Vanderbilt in Nashville. So we've done a lot of concerts together. But that list is all about, I would say, ton of hip-hop, ton of jazz, a lot of rap. So I'm beginning to explore a ton of new artists. I love SZA, listening to a lot of Drake, a lot of Eminem. I would say I've heard Eminem for a really long time. I think he's just a star-class lyricist.

Yeah.

Just deep, deep, deep. So my list is a little all over. I do have to give credit to my husband though, 'cause Gracie Abrams is top on my list because of him, which is just awkward 'cause I'm the one who usually brings amazing country women artists to him. him, but this one I have to give credit to him for.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. You sound like a great mom because you're like hip with the kids, you know, and the music. And I think I actually met one of your boys, right?

Yes.

The Vandy boy who graduated. So congratulations to him.

Thank you.

That's awesome. He was a great young man, and I'm sure he's going to do some amazing things in this world as you have. Tell us about life message or mantra. Are there sort of words that guide what you do?

I would say from the get-go, I grew up in India and my parents raised me with 2 ground rules. You know, one is stay grounded and the other is work hard. And I would say what I added to that was play hard as I was growing. So my life mantra would be don't postpone your joy. I think we humans, by the time we discover, you know, what really matters to us, sometimes it's It's too late. And I've kind of prioritized that. I think we are the only ones who can define what joy means to us. It's not a one-size-fits-all, but whatever really feels right to you, whatever brings true joy to you, don't postpone it in chasing some worldly metric that may not have true meaning, value, or purpose.

I love that. Yeah, that's so important. You know, and I got so excited about having you as a guest, I just Jumped right through your background, but we're gonna get into it a little bit. First, we wanna hear your story, but you are a professor of medicine at Mayo Clinic, physician lead and chair enterprise automation, and medical director of belonging at Mayo Clinic. We will unpack those as we go forward, but before we get there, we know a little bit about you already in terms of your roots in India. So tell us a little bit about who you are, what's your story, and, and what was your life like growing up?

Yeah, so, uh, Ed, I would describe myself as a, Lifelong learner and a manifester. I truly believe like those 2 things can summarize who I am. I would say I'm someone who never quite outgrew my childhood habit of asking, why not? You know, the curious gene in me. I grew up in India surrounded by family, surrounded by color, culture, and really a deep belief that education, work, and commitment to lifting others and service to others will open any door. And that really, as I said earlier, my parents raised me with ground rules of staying grounded and hard work. And I think that really is what led to me realizing my dream of pursuing medicine. So I grew up in New Delhi, India, and both my grandfathers were physicians. So I spent most of my summer breaks really being their free helper in their rural sort of community care clinics. Both of them were general practitioners. And I think I really grew in a sense of awe of what my grandfathers did back in the day with very limited in terms of resources, but really holding up, you know, the ill and the ailing from the day-to-day illnesses to like trauma, the most complex trauma. Everything was care provided by them in their clinic. I would say what really drew me into medicine was not just understanding disease and illness, but really understanding people. You know, what really really people need, what they desire, what their fears are, and how we can really collectively lift them up. I would say over time that curiosity obviously expanded to a systems level thinking. I started my life as a radiologist in India practicing radiology, and then of course moved here overseas along with my husband and transitioned into internal medicine. And I would say all along, you know, one thing that was fundamental to my journey was that it was never linear. It was not conventional. I've had many pivots, which I've welcomed in my life. And grit is something that has kept me going. And when I say grit, it's really an acronym that expands to growth, resilience, inspiration, tenacity. I really, really believe in this. I think this is what's carried me through transformation, burnout, breakthroughs. And everything in between in my experiences as a professional, but also in my personal life.

Yeah. Wow. That's good stuff right there. I was just taking notes myself on the grit in particular, and I'm sure that's going to come back up. But before we go there, because I don't know enough about the culture in India at that time, was it hard for a woman to become a physician and the transition then into the United States? So Was that an unusual thing or was it— are they more ahead of the West in terms of women's roles and leadership and things like that?

Yeah, I so appreciate you asking that question, Ed, and I never miss a chance to share this story. When I was growing up in India, the head of our country was a woman, Ms. Indira Gandhi. So I would say like women for women back in India, you know, we were We were totally in control, and it was a personification of power. You know, the head of our country was a woman who really led with courage, and she was a brave, brave, brave leader. I went to med school at an all-girls medical school, which I believe is the only all-women's medical school in Asia called the Lady Harding Medical College. And trust me, it felt like, you know, I mean, if I had to use a song— this, it would be Who Rules the World, girls. Literally. I mean, it was a very empowering experience. I would say, first off, I have an older brother. I grew up in a very, very loving family. I grew up being cherished as a human. I grew up being cherished, you know, as the daughter of the family. And then all of my experiences, my entire education, I never really felt that girls couldn't do, and you can fill in the blank. It was actually quite the opposite. So really, I grew up in a very empowering environment, in an environment where women were celebrated, women were cherished, women were leading in every field, and pretty much from technology to law enforcement. I remember back in the day, the head of our Delhi Police Services was an Indian woman by the name of Kiran Bedi. I don't know if you've heard about her. Her daughter went to school with me in med school, and she was the most powerful woman, or I should say human, in the city. Everybody was afraid of her. So it was a very, very unique experience, I wanna say, because fast forward, you know, as you grow older and some of the realities of the society, I guess, begin to be more explicit. explicit. And I would say after I moved to the United States, that's when I had more recognition of some of the systemic challenges that not all genders face equally.

Right.

Let's put it that way.

Yeah.

But I'm very thankful for the enriching and, you know, celebratory, empowering environment that I grew up in. And I never ever had even like an implicit sort of gender inequity.

Yeah.

However, I should mention all of this was happening in the background of a very deep-seated inequity in India. And as a radiologist, I was close to that because the female infanticide rate in India was pretty high and that is a societal issue. But I think that's really where polarization of society plays out. You know, on one end is this very empowered, can-do, must-do section of women. And on the other, we are fighting some real societal injustices. So I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that, you know, there are many parallel realities. My reality, thankfully, was the former, the one where I grew up feeling very celebrated all the time, all along.

That's great. And you can tell how that has formed who you are and the things that you've shared to this point. So you have multiple roles, professor of medicine, practicing physician, including integrative medicine, and then medical director of belonging. So let's unpack each of those, maybe take the easier ones, if there is such a thing, first, like professor of medicine and what that entails, because I do wanna spend a little bit of time on the integrative medicine and the belonging, just all the different things you do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sure, to unpack professor of medicine, so that's an academic rank at Mayo Clinic. We are a 3-shield model of practice, which I'm sure you're aware of with our common friends, right? So it's clinical practice, taking care of our patients, but then also overlapping that is education and research. And that's really where our academic contributions, intellectual contributions came, you know, get accounted for. When I came to Mayo Clinic, I was actively pursuing research largely within medical imaging. And then I would say as a radiologist, what drew me into that was my love for precision, problem solving, and critical thinking. Transitioning here to the United States and moving into internal medicine was, I would say, the first time that I engaged after my childhood days with my grandfathers more deeply with the human experience of health and illness. And so the focus of my research kind of started integrating not just medical imaging, but also outcomes and impact, which led to a lot of publications, peer-reviewed articles, a book on First Aid to Radiology in an effort to train the next gen, and multiple other academic pursuits, which ultimately led to me applying successfully for professorship at Mayo Clinic. And I'm incredibly grateful for all the mentors, collaborators that came by. So I would say That was like a 15-year-long journey at Mayo Clinic and one that I deeply cherish. And it's a culmination of a lot of work, including imaging, technology, mindfulness, inclusion, belonging, transformation, and innovation. So I would say it's a mix of all of that. Around the time when I was beginning my practice within internal medicine is when I got deeply, deeply, deeply engaged in mindfulness interventions. 'Cause once I was very close to the human experience, certainly the amount of suffering and our ability to treat a disease versus heal a human, and, you know, the inevitable desire in me to be a healer versus treating a disease became more and more strong. And that's when I pursued mindfulness and integrative medicine. And I think that really has shaped how I show up not only as a leader, but in my personal relationships with my family, but then longstanding bonds with colleagues and patients all along. And I would say that's when I began to see healthcare not just as a system, which was, I would say, the 2 decades ago me, very excited about system alone, but really as a human ecosystem which needs Healing in its process, belonging in its design, and compassion in its culture. Fast forward today, as you said, you know, I do serve as the physician lead and chair or medical director for intelligent automation at Mayo Clinic. And really in this role, me and my team, our goal is to enable and accelerate and execute strategy at scale for integration of AI and intelligent automation across our enterprise, which includes destination medical centers, which includes our health system clinics, which are really focused on population health, but then also span across our operations, our backend. How do we keep our machinery going? So it's really like a pan view of how we deliver care and minimize friction in healthcare delivery, but also move towards category of one experience by our patients and our staff. I'd say in my role as the physician chair and medical director for Office of Belonging, this is a role that has taught me so much, Ed, about—

Yeah.

You know, the realities across one fact and how varied they can be across the spectrum. but also like the impact of society internally within organizations and how we can't divorce cultures within the organization from like at large as a nation and quite frankly, as a global community. And imagine trying to shape our commitment to our culture and devising strategies for belonging for over 82,000 people at Mayo Clinic.

Yeah.

And I'm really, really fortunate that I get to do this with a ton of collaborators and teams and leaders that are engaged in this. Once again, I think all in all, I would say that for me, innovation, inclusion, belonging all go hand in hand.

Yeah.

And it's really to enhance the experience of humans in healthcare. So I'd say in summary, you know, my path has been interesting and I loved I have loved every single bit of this, and I've crossed specialties, skill sets, I would say leadership spaces, but the thread that connects it all is the relentless desire to create more thoughtful, inclusive, and innovative human-centered healthcare.

Yeah, that's— sorry, I'm just catching up on my notes here because it's so fascinating. And I like how you've married them all together, because if you look at them each individually on paper, you might think, oh, there's really not a connection. But as you described, there is a very powerful connection amongst all of them. In terms of enterprise automation, whom are some of the people that you collaborate with the most?

Yeah, so, Ed, when I look at enterprise automation, we really work across cross-functional teams, both within Mayo as well as outside of Mayo. Our lens of collaboration is very, very, very wide. So within Mayo, we work very closely with our clinical operational teams. We work very closely with our strategy teams, with our finance colleagues, our leadership teams within clinical practice, within research, our frontline staff. One of the fundamental, I would say, differentiators of how we implement this at Mayo is And we are very decentralized, very, very decentralized by design. And it's a choice that our leadership has made with a lot of thinking because fundamentally at the core, our approach is people first, which means that we have to be the collaborators-in-chief across the enterprise. So our collaborators range from our frontline staff to my colleagues within clinical practice to our administrative leaders, that span across finance, supply chain, pharmacy, revenue cycle, you name it, every business function. We wanna learn from them, we wanna work with them, and we wanna be able to accelerate the gains for the business. Also working with us very closely are our Education Shield faculty, 'cause they really are our partners in creating that culture of more evangelists at Mayo Clinic, more champions more adopters, more critics, all in all. So we have a very good partnership with them. And then finally, I would say our Research Shield, that's where a lot of work on challenging these solutions happens. You know, what is the best way to do it? We don't wanna bring just shiny tech. We wanna solve real problems.

Yeah.

We wanna do them in a way that is real and relatable versus a design studio conceived thing. So we do work closely With, as you can tell, like a cross-functional team. We also, and another distinction would be, we are a global medical center. So we work with advocacy leaders across international Mayo Clinic practice versus destination medical care practice. And then very, very important, our Mayo Clinic health systems. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention our collaborators include people like you who challenge us, who, you know, are— Tech partners, our biotech partners, our ventures partners. We have a big business development team at Mayo Clinic Ventures team that works closely with others in the industry. I would say also partners that we wouldn't think that we are working with. We have strong ties with academic partners. So for example, this year I'm at MIT and I'm doing a deep dive into AI. And I've absolutely loved the conversations with MIT researchers and professors. And, you know, and I think all of that influences our strategy and our wisdom and the intel that we build into our execution plan. And that is something that excites me the most. The learning curve is just steep and it's, it's just fast-paced. And what we built today is the worst version of what's possible.

Right.

Yeah.

That's always a good feeling. Yeah. And you spoke also at VIVE about enterprise automation and 3 core principles, specifically people first, which you've touched on, stakeholder partnerships, which we've also touched on, and then the concept of solving friction. Tell us a little bit about solving friction. And if you were, you were to add a 4th principle, what might it be?

Yeah. So let me begin with what I might add as a 4th principle. And And that would be really building with trust and transparency, because without that, none of the first 3 principles are really going to create any meaningful gains. I think when it comes to AI and automation or any technology where there is use of black box algorithms and there is use of, you know, predictive and all kinds of analytics that people don't always relate to, it becomes absolutely critical to create that level of transparency so there is good understanding of the why behind the technology. The other piece, I would say the trust piece can be very tricky because this is not a fast kind of trust. It's a cognitive, slow kind of trust that we need to work on. It's not automatic. And it's something that me and my team, along with all of our partners, are always, always keeping at the center of everything we do. Certainly in my role as, you know, leading the belonging work, one thing that's very, very clear is having a good understanding of bias. So in this 4th pillar, I would say, you know, that is fundamentally at the core of everything we do as a very, very strong guide.

Yeah.

Just always keeping in mind that we bring across fair, Ethical, relatable, trustworthy, transparent solutions.

Love that. Yeah, so critical. Let's talk a little bit about leadership because that's what has made all of this work. Was there anything early in life? Obviously, you talked about you were loved. You had parents that loved on you. You had grandparents, grandfathers that were already in the medicine field and you were exposed early. Was there anything else early in life that helped prepare you for your leadership roles that you have today?

Yes, Ed, I would say just reflecting back on my experiences being planted in spaces, in personal relationships, and also during my education journey, you know, I'm— I've always been the one to raise my hand. So it's kind of like a personal trait. The other thing I would say is leadership has never been about destination, but it's a journey. It's about impact and a journey. And I think those seeds were planted very early in my life. You know, me growing in a close-knit, value-driven, close-knit family driven by values certainly was at the foundation and core of who I have become as an individual and a human being. I would also say one of the things my dad and I used to talk about, because Back in the day, you know, it wasn't like I was playing any, you know, roles as a leader. But one of the things he always told me was, you know, you got to leave this place better than you walk into, you know, and if you've done that, you can feel proud of being a contributor.

Yeah.

Over the years, I would say the fact that I have been in an organization and incredibly honored and thankful and very, very proud of the things that we've been able to create at Mayo Clinic over the last 2 decades. And I know I talked a little bit about GRIT, but this is actually a conference I run at. And so it's Growth, Resilience, Inspiration, Tenacity, and it is a leadership development conference. And it really started out because of a book club that a few colleagues, you know, we just said, we don't want to be problem-oriented, we want to be solution-oriented. And there are plenty of problems surrounding us. And we collected together and we were gaining so much from each other's wisdom, and we created a national conference out of this. So I think that's an example of relational power in leadership versus always this positional view of leadership. And I would say there were plenty of hard-earned lessons along the way. One that really led me towards mindfulness was I had a very self-sacrificial view of leadership. Like, I had to say yes to everything because I was the one raising my hand for everything, until it came to a point where, you know, you really realize that you cannot pour from an empty cup.

Yeah.

And sustainability in leadership comes from alignment, not overextension. So, to me, like, that was an aha moment where you gradually transcend from being an individual contributor, and then you become like this, you know, a manifester at scale, you know, mobilizing through your alignment, but not overextension. So, I really had to learn how to lead myself.

Yeah.

As a leader.

You're dropping so many profound things, my head's exploding a little bit. How do you recharge your batteries and remain fresh. So obviously you're doing great things and you've got this great family. So tell us a little bit, you know, what do you do for downtime?

Yeah, so I am also a person with hobbies in addition to music. My husband and I, we absolutely need to go to a concert. We try to go every quarter, more often if we can. On a day-to-day basis, we both bike. And in a couple of weeks, we are going to do a 32-mile bike ride called Tour des Pépins. And thanks to my boys, I would say I've learned a lot from them. We— our younger one is going to be a D1 athlete, and most of our weekends are spent on tennis courts cheering for him. I grew up watching tennis, and now I vicariously am like playing tennis on the court. So sports is a big, big part of our family. I absolutely love Formula 1. So A lot of weekends are Formula 1 time, and then we follow a lot of college tennis. So I would say between sports, music, biking, and outdoors activities, I get plenty of recharging.

Yeah.

And also challenges. I would say I find my brightest ideas and like biggest sparks during my recharge time where I should not be thinking about these things, but that's when I get the best and the brightest ideas.

Yeah. Yeah, that's another reason why it's so important to take the time to refresh. Anjali, we covered so much in our short time together, everything from music, and we covered a wide variety of music, and then the mantra of not postponing joy. And you shared a lot about your background and just this whole concept of being a lifelong learner and a manifester, and you get that lifting other people up and the whole concept of grit, which we've mentioned now a third time, the growth resilience, inspiration, and tenacity. And then we talked about all your different roles and what you do with enterprise automation and the core principles and how the trust is really the foundation for all of it. What did we miss, or is there anything you'd like to double down on? I'll give you the last word.

Yeah, my last word is actually a mantra I learned from Brené Brown, and she's a fellow Texan. I don't know if you follow her. For you, And, you know, I'm a big believer in the work that she does, which is around vulnerability and shame. And it's a very, I think, developmental model.

Yeah.

And so I would love to leave our listeners with something I learned from her, which is this model of living BIG, B-I-G. So the B is living big is possible when we have boundaries that allow us to have integrity, And generosity in everything we do. And I think that has been an aha sort of mantra for me, and I saved the best for the last. So living big, have your boundaries so you can live with integrity and generosity.

Anjali, you're an amazing person, leader. I could tell wife, mom, daughter. I know that you have a great reputation because I know your, some of your peers. at Mayo Clinic. And just, uh, you're one of these great people I'd love to spend more time with and have our families hang out and play some tennis.

Yes, why not?

But thank you so much for being our guest on Digital Voices.

Thank you so very much for having me, Ed.

Thank you for listening to Digital Voices podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and And most importantly, thanks again for listening.

Thank you.