Owning Your Place at the Table (ft. Jennifer Greenman)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences.

And now, your host, Ed Marx. Welcome to this drop of Digital Voices. Today with me, I have Jennifer Wesson-Greenman. She is the CIO of Cancer Treatment Centers of America. Jennifer, welcome to Digital Voices.

Thank you, Ed. It's great to be here.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I am thrilled for individuals like yourself and for Cancer Centers of America, Cancer Treatment Centers of America. And so I'm really looking forward to this discussion all around cancer care. And before we get there, I was going to ask Megan, our producer, if she's ever seen commercials for what we'll just refer to as CTCA.

I think I've probably seen one or two.

Yeah, they're very touching.

Yeah, we have an awesome, an amazing group that produces this commercials. You know, we've shifted a lot now to digital. And so, you know, it's still a very strong web presence, but unlike a lot of healthcare organizations, you know, CTC has a legacy of being more direct to consumer. So something that our teams, our marketing teams are awesome at.

Yeah, it is specialty care that you might not be able to get in your own community. So by having the commercials and other digital means, there's no more— well, so you all were pioneers in a sense because back in the day you were limited to your geography. Right. Your cities, like you had a hospital city and you weren't going anyplace else. But with cancer care and some specialty care, you all were pretty smart about it. Hey, if you aren't getting the type of care you need in your community, because not every community has a cancer care center, you can come to us and we're located strategic places around the country. So I thought it was a brilliant move. But I always liked the commercials and just the empathy that sort of oozed out of those commercials. I really appreciated it. But Jennifer, you and I first met, I guess it's less than a year ago. Was it a Texas chapter of HIMSS, and we were on a panel together. So we got to talk a lot about healthcare and digital. And after that, I was like, please be on our Digital Voices podcast. So again, thanks for being here. And I'm looking forward to jumping into your background, your leadership philosophies, and like I said, sort of like that specialized cancer care. But Jennifer, everyone first wants to know, What's on your playlist? So what songs do you like to listen to?

I have 2 daughters. One is 9, one's 13. And so we listen to a lot of Broadway. We love, love, love Broadway musicals. So, you know, I live in Tampa, Florida, and when we— when the Broadway shows travel to Tampa, we see a lot of them, really enjoy seeing them. And we've even made a few trips up to the real Broadway in New York City. So I would say there's a lot of Broadway songs and then Variety of other songs that the kids like, you know, but a lot of girl power in our house.

Oh, that sounds great. I love Broadway too. What, what are some of your favorite Broadway shows?

Recently we saw, um, actually it's the second time we've seen it. We saw Six. So that's a new one about the, the 6 wives of Henry VIII. And it's again, very female empowerment, very fun, very, very well done show. So we saw that here in Tampa recently, but we also saw it in New York last year. Love Hamilton. You know, I think that's just an incredible show. Dear Evan Hansen, we enjoyed very much. So all the traditional shows are great too, you know, Chicago and Phantom of the Opera. Gosh, there's so many. We just love seeing them.

We're big fans too. And we, you know, we subscribe in our local area as well to the shows coming through. And then every once in a while get up to New York City. We haven't seen Six yet. I know it's in our It's coming up as one of the shows here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. So looking forward to that. And I'm kicking myself, and I don't want to make a fool of myself here on my own podcast, but trying to remember one of the more recent ones, a newer one that we saw. And it was about fire, right? This person goes to the underworld and meets the king of fire, or Hades. Hadestown.

Hadestown. Yes. Yeah. In fact, I was actually— that one is coming to Tampa soon. So I was just Just looking to buy tickets for that actually, because I think it's about 2 or 3 more weeks it'll be here in Tampa.

Yeah, so is that your first time for Hadestown?

It would be because I've not seen it before. So yes, like Tony, right? It won the Tony a few years ago. It looks like it'll be a fantastic show. But you enjoyed it?

Loved it. And I had— I was skeptical at first, and then I had to download the soundtrack. And if you weren't gonna guess Hadestown as I was trying to figure it out, I was gonna sing. So you saved everyone from You sing this one recurring melody, and it's just so captivating. So anyways, no, that's good. That's good to hear.

Yeah.

Now other people listening, they got some things to think about, like, okay, I need to go see a play. I need to go see live show and give them some clues on a good show. What about your life message or mantra or quote? Is there something you sort of live your life by?

I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. I've had countless blessings in my life, certainly a great deal more than most people are able to experience. So I'm very fortunate and undoubtedly more than I deserve in any case. But I've had some tough times too. And through these experiences, I've learned some incredibly important life lessons, a number of them. I've come to understand that these challenges can serve an important purpose, even if that purpose is not entirely understood at the time, or even mystifying, right, in some cases. But it's that lesson, it's that mantra that has helped me to stay resilient and optimistic for the future, even in very difficult circumstances.

No, that's great. I like that. So share with us a little bit about your story, personal, professional. You've kind of hinted at it a little bit, just, you know, wherever you wanna start, wherever it began, and to where you are today.

I've always been in healthcare professionally, never been in any other industry. And that goes all the way back to high school. When I was a pharmacy tech at two of our local hospitals in South Florida, after college I went to college for business, so did not end up following you know pursuing a medical career, but ended up sort of everything happens you know serendipitously worked for Cerner because they were hiring a lot of recent college graduates at the time. In fact, this was right after September 11th, so it was a very difficult time to get a job in any industry at that point. But happened to be very fortunate to get a job with Cerner. Worked at Cerner for a few years. One of my clients. One of my first placements while I was at Cerner was Bayfront Health System down in St. Petersburg. And I just, I loved the team there. I loved the environment, you know, a community hospital, 500 beds, fairly small department, learned a lot. You know, that's the benefit, the value I think in those environments is that you, because you wear so many hats, because, you know, you have the flexibility to do so much, you do learn a lot about healthcare delivery. You learn a lot about technology. There's a lot of grace. you know, for mistakes in those environments. So, you know, it's chaos, but it's also really, really great to learn early in your career. So, I worked at Bayfront for a number of years, about 9 years, all the way from systems analyst to CIO. And that in and of itself is an interesting story. But when I— after I had my second child, I was fortunate enough, I just, at that point in my life, Bayfront had just been acquired by Health Management Associates. It just made sense for me professionally and personally to Look for other opportunities. So, I had worked with, or I should say, I had met a gentleman by the name of Mark Hulse, who was the CIO at Moffitt Cancer Center at the time, which was close to where I lived. He had an opportunity to join him on his team as senior director. Loved Mark before that, loved him even more after I had a chance to work for him. And so, very quickly, again, completely unexpectedly, got promoted to CIO at Moffitt. And was able to do that for 5, I guess, 5 years. So, and then, you know, had this great opportunity present itself 3 years ago to come serve at CTCA, and I've been here ever since. What is really interesting though about the story is that Mark eventually became the Chief Digital Officer at City of Hope. Now, this was a few years back. We'd always kept in touch. Adore Mark. I respect him so much as a leader and a mentor. Well, so City of Hope acquired CTCA a little less than a year ago, so Mark is now my boss again after all these years. So it's just funny how these things work out, but, um, all for the best. Everything happens for a reason, so it all works out very well.

Yeah, that is very cool, sort of how that, that all happened. And I'm sure he's thrilled at that too. It's always great serving with someone that you've served with before and can trust and You know, you got that good chemistry.

Yeah.

You can like do cool things together.

Yeah.

'Cause it's always like a little bit of fear and trepidation when you're like, you know, when you try any new job and you working with someone.

Oh yeah.

So that's, that's always nice. So tell us a little bit about CTCA. So not everyone knows. I, I happen to know a little bit just 'cause I've been around the block a few times, but can you give us some general ideas about CTCA and you can throw in whatever you need to for City of Hope? 'Cause I, I, like you mentioned, They're together now, but what would people want to know about CTCA?

So CTCA is a nationally accredited network of hospitals and clinics that is focused exclusively on delivering high-quality, evidence-based cancer care. Here at CTCA, we have a coordinated approach, a team-based approach to care. We have all available treatment modalities, so everything from, you know, surgical oncology, radiation oncology, medical oncology, as well as the latest advancements in precision medicine. And we also have a very strong focus on supportive therapies. So, you know, we are focused on the whole person and managing their quality of life throughout their cancer journey. We have— right now we operate in 3 geographic markets: Phoenix, the Phoenix area, the Chicagoland area, and Atlanta. And as I mentioned previously, and as you noted, we recently— well, say recently, actually was Almost a year ago now, so early February this year, we were acquired by City of Hope, which is an NCI-designated comprehensive cancer center based in Duarte, California. Actually, it's a very exciting time for the organizations to come together. We call it Joining Forces. And the rationale behind it, the vision behind it, is based on this shared vision of democratizing access to cancer care so that we can benefit patients across the country in communities within our geographic markets, in communities outside of the market, because we have, you know, this legacy, this competency in facilitating travel for our patients. But the goal here is to bring these innovative therapies, these discoveries that are pioneered at City of Hope, which has an incredible legacy of scientific excellence, but we're bringing these discoveries to our patients across the country, regardless of their geographic location. geographic location or background, because we have a shared vision to close the gap between innovation in cancer care and the patients, and patients based on any variation based on where they're living throughout the country. So we're really trying to close that gap in outcomes for patients in all areas of the United States.

That's pretty cool. Yeah, and actually part of that, and I mean this in a complimentary way, Reminded me of some of the commercials because that was some of the key themes, right? Was really about team-based approach and the whole person care. And again, that sort of that empathy. And it makes sense. The union of the two makes a lot of sense. Now, since Moffitt, since the time you left Bayfront, essentially you've worked in cancer care. Is that purposeful? Is there a specific draw for you in cancer care?

There is. I mean, it is absolutely a calling. It requires a high degree of empathy and compassion. And I say that more for our caregivers, The clinicians, the doctors, nurses, support teams that we support. So there is a bit of a calling and it's a very strong intrinsic motivator for myself and for my teams to be able to contribute in a way to help people that are facing the most, in many cases, the most distressing time of their life when they're fighting cancer. And of course, as you know, probably everyone knows since it's affected all of our lives in some way, it's It's not just the patient, but it's really their family, their network, their supporters that are all fighting this battle together. There is something that's very motivating for me, and I think for all of my teams as well. I have learned a lot, as you noted, since Moffitt. I did not appreciate that before I started working at Moffitt, and certainly here at CTCA, that there are many unique aspects and— Characteristics of cancer treatment. And it is an immensely complex technology environment. I like to— the term I've used in probably many, many different forums is cognitive overload. It's abundant. And I feel empathy for our clinicians in many cases because they are trying to make decisions based on a variety of factors and variables and considerations, as well as the patient's preferences, which of course are going to be very different in every circumstance. They're trying to do this in a very Yeah. It's a very highly intense environment, and our systems don't always help them, right? In some cases, our systems can make it even more confusing for them to make those decisions. So, you know, for me, I see that as a huge opportunity. I also see that, as noted, that to deliver high-quality cancer care requires a coordinated team-based approach, and that that level of coordination can be impacted either favorably or unfavorably by technology. I'm energized by the potential opportunity for disruption in the space, and I'm hoping to play a role in driving that transformation.

What has been your favorite moment at CTCA? You know, was maybe it was an outcome or something, something your team helped with, but is there one moment that maybe stands out from all the others?

Well, there's a lot of moments, a lot of things I'm very proud of. I would say at a personal level where I really, I was probably most profoundly grateful and appreciative to work for CTCA. It was actually a personal experience. My mom's friend had received a rare cancer diagnosis at her community provider, and she was referred to an academic cancer center and had a very difficult time navigating that environment. So my mom called me and said, hey, can you help her get a second opinion at CTCA? And so this was, you know, I don't know when it was, but I'll just say it was late In the evening. So I emailed my— our leader, our enterprise leader for pathology, like 9 o'clock at night. And his name is Dr. Tan, and he's just an amazing practitioner. He's an amazing person, colleague in every way. So, you know, my question, of course, was, you know, is this the type of case that we could see? Got back to me right away. Yes, we can see, you know, this doctor would be able to help her. And I mean, this was like half an hour later.

Wow. Yeah.

You know, emails me back. By that point, he had already given me the name of the doctor. He reached out to that doctor and he connected me to our intake team, who I had already known as well. I was just, you know, waiting to make sure that this was something that we were able to treat. So again, by the next morning, intake team had reached out to my mom's friend, called her. I think she had an appointment for a telemedicine consult within a week. And this doctor saw her and gave her very reassuring news about her diagnosis and her prognosis. This is a situation that I know many cancer patients experience where she was just in a constant state of anxiety and fear for weeks while she was going through this process. So for her, it was a huge relief. We were all so grateful. And what is fascinating to me, what I am so proud of honestly, is that this is not a VIP experience, right? This is a real commonplace experience for our patients that they have so much support and care in navigating their cancer journey here. And, you know, I know that there's great experiences at cancer centers across the US. It's by no means unique, but there is such an immense focus on the patient experience here and making sure that our patients feel supported and connected and communicated with. And I've never felt that way before in my career and in any healthcare setting. So I'm very proud. That was, for me, I was like, I'm so proud of this and I want to figure out how to be like, How do we make this even more scalable? Because it's such an effective model, such a personal, comforting, compassionate care model that we can provide.

No, that's a beautiful example. And it sounds like actually you were saying there's no VIP, but actually it sounds like all your patients get a VIP.

Exactly. Thank you. Yes, that's a good way to clarify. Yes, everybody's treated like a VIP. But I mean, in other places, in other healthcare settings, There is always this sort of white glove concierge service, but that is every patient's experience at CTCA.

Jennifer, I think we just made a new commercial for CTCA.

I know.

I want to shift over into leadership. You've been a CIO. You just described your personal journey, your professional journey. You've been a CIO quite some time, I think since 2010 when you became CIO of Moffitt, right around there. That's 12 years. When I think back to all my CHIME meetings, It's our professional organization for CIOs. I know, 12 years ago, there weren't a heck of a lot of women, unfortunately, but you're certainly one of them. I consider you one of the first to break the CIO glass ceiling, and that's cool. Anything that you wish males knew about women in healthcare tech? Feel free to— are we shortsighted? Have we not done things to help? women accelerate their careers, anything that you might want to say to people like myself?

As a female in the technology field, it is still incredibly, surprisingly common to walk into a room and see very few, if any, other females. And as you noted, it's been quite a number of years that I've been in a more senior technology leadership role. So it does still— it does surprise me, honestly, in 2022 that that situation still exists. I think the important thing to understand, though, that this can be a very uncomfortable experience for, you know, a female, for, you know, anyone who feels sort of underrepresented to walk into a room and see a bunch of faces that look nothing like you.

Right.

And I found it impeded at times my own confidence and my, you know, willingness to be candid. It could, especially for younger rising leaders, I think, impede women back— impede or hold women back professionally. So, I think it's just something to keep in mind. You know, I think in terms of, you know, male colleagues understanding when networking and engaging professionally. And I will say this, I am always incredibly grateful for strong male allies, and you're one of them, who go— who in our community go out of their way to show support and encouragement and connection. And so, I think that's one thing I would note. The other thing I might say, particularly for leaders, is that In my experience, and this is my personal experience as well, I've found that there's many female leaders that don't feel comfortable with self-promotion. You know, we can have a tendency, or at least I feel I do, but I've observed this in others too, that we can downplay our personal accomplishments and often are inclined to share credit and promote others when possible. And I think that's a positive trait. You know, I think many of us would say that's a positive trait. It can, though, in my observation, put leaders, put females sometimes at a disadvantage compared to peers who are very adept at promoting their successes and their accomplishments and really demonstrate a level of accomplishment and confidence when seeking professional advancement. I would just point out, I think that that's an opportunity to help Help rising female leaders, help female colleagues to celebrate their successes, take credit even when it's not always comfortable for us to do that.

That's sound wisdom. A couple of ways that I wrote down sort of summarizing a couple of the points you made is women who are assertive like a man would then sometimes be characterized as aggressive when they're just being assertive like a man. It's a double standard. And then branding versus bragging. So they're working on their brand. If a man does it, it's branding. If a woman does it, oh, she's bragging. It's a double standard that you're pointing out. It's true. We need to be cognizant of it. And I find that really helps me. I can't relate, obviously, being male, but I can tell you, even last— this weekend, my wife is of Indian background. She's Indian, from India. And so When we go to some parties, I am the only person non-Indian. And it's a big deal because you, you know, you're the only non-Indian and you don't necessarily, you know, fit in yet, you know, unless they go out of their way to make me feel welcome and then I can interact with them. Right.

Mm-hmm.

But I really need them also to reach back to me as I reach out to them. So, That's about as close as I can get to relating, but I do pick up on it for sure when I'm in different cultural situations. So that's really good. That's really important. Yes. And males need to become allies for sure and have that understanding. And it's unfortunate that it's still an issue. Like you said, you look around that room, right? Even though women make up, like, in healthcare, I forget the exact percentage, but maybe 65%, 70%. of workers in healthcare tend to be female. When you look at health IT, and especially as you get into manager, director, and above, it's not proportional. That's an issue that we need to continue to focus on. Anyways, thank you for your candor. I'm glad you talked about that. What about younger women? Maybe I shouldn't say young. What I mean is, when I say young, I mean young in their career. What about women who are younger in their career but aspire to be you? to become a CIO, any pieces of advice, one or two things that you might tell them?

In complete honesty, I often struggled with a lack of confidence. I still do at times. I mean, it's a challenge. Especially earlier in my career, I sometimes felt intimidated in situations when I was the only female or when I was younger than others or just in a room of— in these academic centers, academic cancer centers like Moffitt. I mean, there are brilliant people all around, incredibly smart. And so, you know, it's very easy, I think, regardless of whether you're a male, female, or whatever your background is, to feel intimidated in that environment. So I shared this, I confided in this with a very wise colleague, and she, she told me to remember in these circumstances that I have earned my seat at the table. And, and this is advice that I often remind myself even today when I struggle with confidence or I struggle with, you know, feeling like I haven't— I don't belong.

Right.

That all individuals, that we all have earned our seat, and we all deserve to have our voices heard. And it's important. In fact, as leaders, we have to make sure that we have all voices, and especially folks who are underrepresented need to be heard. And that's probably one of my main lessons and one of the main things I would give advice to other rising That's spot on, Jennifer.

And thanks for your transparency. I think everyone, when they're gut honest with themselves, they're insecure. They lack some confidence. And some people are better at masking it than others. Some are better with going through that process like you're describing, like, wait a second, no, I do belong here. I've earned my place at the table and I'm gonna walk in that authority. And I remind myself that all the time. It's like, I've been given a certain level of authority and I'm gonna walk in that authority. It wasn't, for me, a male-female thing. For me, it was my age. I was that really young person coming up, and there was this secret group of male CIOs that still exists today a little bit. I think they've added some females since then, but it was like this super cool group. But there are all these older people. It's like I didn't need that affirmation. I get my affirmation elsewhere. Part of my affirmation came in my ability to execute at work and work with other people and stuff like that. So point is, we all deal with this and, uh, it's important to remember the wise words that you shared, that you have earned your seat at that table. So that, that's really good. So thank you for sharing and being transparent cuz everyone can relate to that. And if they tell you that they don't, then they're not a real leader. They're not authentic leader. All right. I'm gonna get a lot of hate mail now. Hate email. Saying that, that, what about, well, this is great cuz I was gonna ask about some of the other sort of advice things, but We hit some of that. Let me get one more important question in here. What do you do to recharge your batteries and remain fresh? So, right, you're busy. You're a mom, 2 girls. You see Broadway shows. That's good. But you also work a lot and are very focused at work and really good at work. So what do you do to sort of stay fresh and balanced?

I love living in Tampa. I love living in this part of Florida. I lived all over Florida. And I'll tell you, this is the best part here in Tampa Bay. And so I am very fortunate that I can enjoy amenities events all year round. So on any given weekend, you know, we can go to the beach, we can go to festivals, we can go to shows. If we're really, you know, feeling adventurous, we can go to a theme park. But we have so many opportunities to be able to disconnect and take advantage of the environment that we're in. That has helped my mental health significantly in recent years, particularly through these very challenging times that we've all faced. Just to be able to, you know, to get out and enjoy the environment has been wonderful. That's a big part of it. And just surrounding myself here with Great friends, wonderful family, and the great environment that we live in.

Yeah. Geography matters.

Big time.

It's good when you live in a cool place. We talk about a lot of stuff. We talk a lot about Broadway and everyone should see— I think we're recommending Six and we're recommending Hadestown, which you'll see. Definitely let me know what you think. We talk about your career. It was quite fascinating starting out in high school all the way to becoming CIO, a longtime CIO. You told us, gave us a lot of great advice along the way. So we covered a lot, a lot of leadership, and you were very transparent and authentic. And what did we not talk about that you might want to share with us or double down on something we already mentioned?

I might pose a question back to you, if that's OK.

Yeah.

So I'm curious to know, I love hearing about perspectives of folks who've had a wide variety of different types of leadership roles in different organizations and cultures and been successful. So I'm curious to ask you, Do you think that those of us who are natives, healthcare industry natives like myself, can we transform healthcare or do you think it will take leaders from outside of healthcare to accomplish this feat?

I think the answer is both. What I did with my direct reports wherever I've been— I'm trying to remember if this actually happened at the last organization, but I always tried to hire someone from outside of healthcare. So I knew I couldn't bring that to bear directly. So I wanted someone who reported to me that did. So I hired people from entertainment, from financial industry. I even one time, one of my key persons, yeah, my last place was, uh, the CIO of Sherwin-Williams. He came over to work for us. So I always found that super helpful. But, but the other advice I give people, and I know you do something like this, is if you can't, like, if you are intentional about your career, I would recommend that people who were early in their career that they get some healthcare, leave healthcare, and come back to healthcare, gaining that other experience, like maybe retail or a consumer-type organization, consumer goods, product services. But if you can't do that, is belonging to advisory boards that aren't healthcare-specific. I was fortunate to belong to several advisory boards along my journey. That maybe there's only 1 or 2 people from healthcare and the rest were from all other industries. Perhaps the most interesting one was I was like an advisory board, like a super senior one at IBM. So it included the CEO and all of her direct reports at the time. So it was like very, very senior. And these people from all over the globe, talk about intimidation, man. And I was like, do I belong here? You know, I had the same thoughts. I was like, I questioned myself, like looking around. I was like, dang, you know, I'm not sure I belong here. But then I had to like, no, no, no, Ed, you do belong here.

Mm-hmm.

That helps. Then I have these colleagues that I can call on like, hey, what did you do about experience in your organization? I found that very helpful. One last thing, and I don't mean to talk so long, but it just happened recently. I get together with CIOs all around the country. I travel a lot and I just show up places. I say, hey, let's all get together. The last time I was in Cleveland about a month ago, I also invited the CIO/CDO from the Cleveland Museum of Art. She came because they're doing amazing things with experience. She sat around the table. She had never met most of the CIOs from healthcare in North Ohio, and they all had this amazing moment. Our next gathering— I get there every 2 months because I serve on a board of a health system up there. We get together every 2 months. This next gathering, which is early December, it's going to be a night at the museum. It's going to be so cool because she's going to take us all through the experience. It's quite fascinating what they do now in museums for experience. But when she was telling me all this the first time, And why I looped her in was we need what she has in healthcare. And so that's the point I'm making with that long story is hang out with people outside of healthcare. And so you'll get some of that same perspective. So long answer, but a couple different—

No, it's a great point.

Couple tricks and hacks that I've used along the way. So Jennifer, you're amazing person, leader, peer. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for being part of Digital Voices.

Thank you. My pleasure.

All right, that wraps up. Digital Voices talk to you next week. Thank you for listening to Digital Voices Podcast with Ed Marx.

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