Prioritizing Mental Health: Breaking the Silence (ft. Sarah Harper)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices podcast, where we chat digital transformation challenges and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marx. Hey, welcome to another edition of Digital Voices. So glad you can join me and my friend Sarah Harper. Sarah, welcome to Digital Voices.

Thanks, Ed. I'm really excited to be here with you today.

Sarah, you're super interesting, and one reason is you have your own podcast, Tech It to the Limit with Elliot. Tell us a little bit about Tech It to the Limit.

Yeah, Elliot, the second T is for Telehealth Wilson. Tech It to the Limit is a humorous and informative podcast on digital transformation in healthcare. You can stream it wherever you pod, and you can also check us out at techittothelimit.

Love it. And we'll definitely put that in the show notes cuz I highly recommend your podcast to everyone. And so, thank you. I'm trying to think when we first met, Sarah, it's been, it's been a while. I, we, we do a lot, we cross paths a lot online, things like that. And of course you're, yeah, famous with Mayo and all those sort of things, but I couldn't put a year on it. Do you happen to take a stab on a year?

I, I remember. Yeah, it was about this time last year actually that we met, so You and Elliot met at a conference. I think it might've been the ATA EDGE Policy Conference or something similar. And, uh, you graciously agreed to be interviewed for our podcast about your and Chris Ross's new book, Diagnosed, which I am reading and am really loving the audio version. And, uh, yeah, so you were kind of talking about that whole process and your friendship and your healthcare journey with Chris Ross. So it was about a year ago that we met virtually. Haven't met IRL yet.

We met like that, but I mean, we've known each other across the LinkedIn landscape for some time.

Sure, sure, sure. LinkedIn landscape. I like that.

What about songs on your playlist, Sarah? I think that's the most important thing everyone wants to know.

I love this question. Oh my gosh, I am such a musical person. So I have too many playlists to detail here, but I did create one for you, Ed, and I will share it with you if you want to put it in the show notes.

Yeah.

But depending on my mood and where I'm at, who I'm with, uh, I have different songs. So I'll give you 5. If I'm in the car line with my kids, I have a 6-year-old son and a 9-year-old daughter. We're usually listening to Twenty Trucks. My favorite is Snowcat. And then if I really just, if I'm running, I like to listen to music that pumps me up, gives me energy, makes me feel powerful. Been really digging this band called Hallucination recently, and one of my favorite tracks is Stadium Pow Wow. And then if I'm in a like leave mommy alone mood, I usually am listening to Townes Van Zandt, um, on my record player. And my kids know that that's a sign that mommy needs some restorative time. So stay away. When I'm cooking, I love to listen to music, especially when I'm cooking for the ones that I love. I listen to local music a lot. Uh, one of my favorites is Clay Fulton and the Lost 40. They're a local band outta Rochester. And then last but not least, I love dancing. So whenever my kids and I are in a dancing mood, We like to play like Wilson Pickett or, you know, kind of newer stuff like Sasquatch and, uh, anything that'll make you shake your rump.

Yeah. Love it. Yeah. We're going to add those because we do have our own playlist as well. Digital Voices playlist.

Awesome, man. You got a cool podcast, Ed.

So we're going to, uh, add those to it as well. What about life message and mantra? Like, are there words that you live by?

Yeah. Well, this is such a cool question too. Very insightful. Um, I have had many mantras throughout my, as I reflected on this question, I like almost 10 that I could think of off the top of my head. And they were all kind of, um, relevant at that chapter in my life, in that moment in time, right? But the 2 that I keep going back to that I actually, uh, acquired as a teacher. So many people don't realize this, but I spent, um, like a decade teaching, uh, K through 12 Spanish. So the, the first one was the motto of our elementary school was, if you had fun, you won. And the other one was the sort of the mantra or the, the the value statement of our middle school, which was work hard and be kind. And I always go back to those cuz they're succinct and they really focus on like my core values, which is having a good time, being joyful, doing my best, and really working hard to live into my full potential and just being kind and compassionate to others. So those are kind of my, my two that I return back to over time.

And we're creating a little booklet. Free booklet of everyone's, um, mantra and messages. So it'd be really cool. I love it.

You are so fun.

And it makes sense for you, Sarah, because I know you're a hilarious, high-functioning human dedicated to helping others.

That is correct.

So we, we know a little bit about you already. You like to cook, you run, you have eclectic taste in music. You're at Mayo. Uh, let's see, you dropped some other things on us. K through 12 Spanish.

Mm-hmm.

So tell us a little bit more about you. Like, uh, what was your life like growing up?

To be honest, I was a tool. Like in a nutshell, that was me. Like I'm, I'm a huge nerd. Born and raised in Rochester, Minnesota, which is the home of, uh, Mayo Clinic. I have 8 relatives that work at the clinic. Fun fact. I went to Mayo Clinic High School. Well, actually it wasn't called Mayo Clinic High School. It was just called Mayo High School. I was a straight A student. Big shocker. Loving to nerd out. Big goofball. I was a 3-season athlete, again, High functioning, senior class president, yada, yada. But I had like a really diverse friend group. I never felt like I had like a, you know, a core clique. I just kind of got along with everybody. But, you know, the, the flip side of that coin is you never really feel like you fit in anywhere. I, I got outta Dodge as soon as I could possibly, uh, do that, which was post-graduation. I went to undergraduate at Amherst College in Western Massachusetts, and I studied Spanish and Latin American history, kind of deep dive into that. My pa— it was my passion at the time. A lot of travel, a lot of study abroad. Was also a 3-season athlete. Um, and I, and I lived in a commune with a bunch of musicians, which is one of the reasons I have such eclectic taste. My first master's, which is not meant to sound braggadocious, it's just like the sort of the pinnacle of that journey where I was studying Spanish literature and language and culture, is I went to UT Austin to get a master's in Hispanic literature. Um, and that's kind of my foray, my entryway into teaching. Uh, I taught for a little under a decade in Texas and Virginia and then moved back home when my kiddos were born, um, to sort of raise them, uh, in Rochester. And I knew at some point it was inevitable I was gonna end up working at the clinic. So lucky me, they were implementing this, this software out of Verona, Wisconsin, and they needed people that knew how to teach. And I was like, well, I can teach. Uh, and Honestly, like teaching, I can learn software in a second because I grew up in the '90s playing Myst and, you know, hands down it's way simpler than Epic. I wasn't supposed to say that. Teaching Epic to like orthopedic surgeons is not that different than teaching Spanish to like 7th graders. Really, truly, it's not. It's the same skillset. So that's how I kind of got into the world of healthcare technology, and I'll pause there and see if you have any questions.

Yeah. What were your other masters?

So my other master's, thanks for asking. I always forget about that one. Right before the pandemic started, I enrolled in a healthcare MBA program at the University of St. Thomas here in Minnesota. It's based, uh, in St.— the Twin Cities. I did a lot of research, consulted with some advisors around like what was the best program for me to go to and pursue an MHA or an MBA. And knowing that I was working at Mayo, but I might not always stay. I mean, I love Mayo Clinic, I bleed blue, but I wanted something somewhat portable just given who I am as an individual. I tend to evolve and change and reinvent myself. So I, I didn't wanna pursue an MHA specifically. I wanted to get an MBA, but St. Thomas had a really unique program where you could learn alongside clinicians. It was a cohort model. 50% of my classmates were clinically trained. And all of our case studies were in healthcare, right? All of our professors had some sort of clinical or practical real-world expertise in the healthcare industry. So it was a tremendous program, but extremely different than studying Hispanic literature in a library in, in Texas. Right.

And what about the athlete thing intrigues me as well. Uh, what were your 3 sports? What were the 3 sports?

Well, I've had many sports over my lifetime. In high school, it's Started out as tennis and golf, and then I added cross-country, dropped tennis. And then in college, I was actually recruited to go play at Amherst. Uh, they have a D3 women's golf team. Um, they're quite successful actually. Not, not when I was on the team, but they are now. We did make it to the national championship twice, so I shouldn't, I shouldn't diss us. But anyway, yeah, so I was recruited to play golf, which is a 2-season sport in college, uh, fall and spring. And I was like, you know, I'm really bored in the wintertime. And my mom was like, well, you're in a D3 school and you're a pretty good athlete. Why don't you just try to walk onto the squash team? And I'm like, sweet, the triple crown of preppy sports. I got tennis, squash, and golf. But these days I, I just run a lot and I do yoga to try to protect my body and restore, um, prevent injury. Uh, but running is, is medicine for me, which I know it is for you too.

Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Hey, let's jump into your career a bit. Yeah. You already mentioned Mayo. Tell us about what you do at Mayo.

So what don't I do at Mayo? I feel like we all have one official job title that we put on LinkedIn and then there's like 20 other things, right? But that's what's so awesome about working at an organization like that is there's so much opportunity to keep learning. And you're really, the real challenge is just saying no, right? And setting up some healthy boundaries for yourself. But I have to mention before Mayo, I'm also a mom and I consider that my most important job. And it takes the most energy for me and it's what I'm most proud of. But then beyond that, I work in artificial intelligence at, at Mayo Clinic Health System, which is related to Mayo Clinic, the destination medical center, but it's not quite the same organization, right? We're like siblings with very different skill sets and interests and friends. So I work for the community practice serving our patients in rural communities. Rural and community settings. And my specific role is to work with our clinical partners to identify opportunities where AI and automation can add value in the community practice, and then make sure that we, when we design those solutions together, that they actually get implemented successfully and that we're measuring the impact. So kind of that whole lifecycle of AI automation in clinical care, but very different use cases than you'd find in like a destination medical center, right? much more population health focused, preventative health focused. So that's one of my roles at Mayo. I'm also an instructor in healthcare administration. So most folks don't know this about Mayo, but we have 3 shields on our logo, right? It's a very recognizable logo. The center shield is the largest that represents the practice, and then it's flanked by education and research. So education and research fuels clinical practice, right? I have a role on the education shield where I'm a course director for our Transforming Community and Rural Health Symposium, which is a flagship CME course that the Mayo Clinic Health System puts on each year. I love that because I get to be a teacher again and design education that's engaging and impactful. And I have a couple other things I'll mention. I get to mentor some amazing interns through our AI internship with, in partnership with UW-Eau Claire, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire. I have a role in the Mayo Clinics Supporting Indigenous Peoples, MERGE. MERGE stands for Mayo Employee Resource Group. It's kind of like an affinity group, but they do a whole lot more than just get together and talk about mutual interests. And, uh, I'm also the operations manager for time-driven activity-based costing. So, well, we don't, we don't have time to get into that. Let's just focus on the AI piece.

Yeah, that's super, super interesting. And yeah, you're right. Opportunity, you get to cross over a lot of different areas. So your job always stays Fresh. Hey, I want to jump into a topic, even a level down in terms of, uh, a little bit heavy. And that's, uh, suicidality. If I say it that right, suicidality. You wrote a heavy piece on LinkedIn. I think September, right, is Suicide Awareness Month.

Yeah.

And, uh, you wrote a really heavy piece and, uh, it really impacted me and, and it made me think a lot. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Yeah. So, well, first of all, I encourage everybody to go out and read it. Maybe Ed, you could put it in the show notes.

Yes.

'Cause I prob— I won't do a great job of rehashing it here, but I'll try to hit the high points. But before I even kind of go into that content, I just wanna talk about a little bit what happened that led up to that piece. Right? So in May, I was hospitalized for major depression, PTSD, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. And the reasons behind that hospitalization are complex. They're deeply personal. Uh, and, and at some point I may share them with the world, but I'm not ready to yet in this space. But suffice it to say, it was an inflection point and it was 40 years in the making. You know, it's not something that just happens, right? So folks are welcome to read the article if they wanna learn a little bit more. What really moved me to write it was I wanted to help people. As you know, I'm an outgoing guy. I'm an outgoing gal. Sorry. Wow. I've never made that slip before. I'm an outgoing human. I'm energetic, ambitious, high functioning, all the things, right? And on the surface level, everyone's like, wow, Sarah, you really have it all together. How do you do it all? Right? You're just everywhere and you're so positive. Especially with my presence on LinkedIn, right? I, I've sort of, um, made an intentional effort to build my personal brand out in that space and to use that platform to its fullest potential. But yeah, it's really, I've stepped back and I've thought, okay. Am I part of the problem here? Right? Where I'm, I'm flattered that I'm getting these kinds of folks reaching out and saying they wanna connect, or they just really like the work that I'm doing and appreciate what I'm sharing. But I also think like, I'm sort of playing into this false myth of, of Superwoman, you know, the person that can do it all. I'm a single mom and I have like 12 jobs and look at me, like I'm, I'm in shape. Like I do all this stuff, right? Um, I probably cook homemade dinners every night, which is not true. And my house is an absolute disaster for the record. But yeah, I just wanted to level with people and be like, guess what? I'm just like all of you. And well, maybe not all of you, but I've had my struggles too. And I'm a real person and it's time to kind of share the full picture with you so that hopefully you stop comparing yourself to people like me. Right?

Yeah.

And that you just focus on living your best life. So that's kind of, that's the why behind the piece. I don't know if you have any other questions. I'm happy to share more.

Well, what are some key messages or key things that allies can do? So if we know someone and yeah, you're right. Well, first let me say, um, I appreciate your candor, your honesty, your frankness and authenticity. It doesn't exist. And like, you know, we all have proof. Pretend we have these beautiful lives on Facebook and Insta and TikTok and, and, and, uh, uh, LinkedIn. And the reality is no one really has this perfect life and there's crap that goes on. And at least you're willing to admit it. And I try to share as well. You know, I've been through a divorce and I've been through some other traumas and I've been fired before. Um, so I, so I, I try to do the same thing, you know, and don't try to paint like it's all perfect. Uh, all the things are, are, are definitely nice, but we all go through these ups and downs. It's just life. You go through ups and downs. Um, and so I appreciate the fact again that you were willing to share that and trying to help, help other people. And that's super, super cool. I know that's part of your bio about who you are. It's just what makes you, it's what makes, uh, Sarah Harper, Sarah Harper. So what are some key messages for allies? So people like on the periphery, how can we help people? Because, you know, I'm probably not really good at this. Like if someone shares with me, uh, I'm really struggling. I'm not sure what I would do. So what are some key—

Yeah, that's a great question. I feel like in order to answer it though, I have to start, I have to say it starts with you, the individual. Like, as I was reading your book, there was a, there was something that resonated with me about like, you need to participate in your own rescue.

Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah. So I have this great group of friends around me, right? But at the end of the day, they can only hold me accountable. To a certain extent, right? It's my responsibility to take care of myself and sort of participate in my own self-preservation. If it's a, if you'll permit me, I wanna start there and then answer your question about allies. So for me personally, I'm, I'm just sharing my own personal story. I recognize that mental illness is a unique journey for every individual and everyone's lived experience is different, right? So I, I wanna be very careful that I, I've, I'm I'm only speaking for myself here, but hopefully some of your listeners with what I say may resonate with them and be helpful. Prevention for me is the best medicine. So put myself first. That's a lesson I've learned. I learned it the hard way. Hopefully your listeners won't have to learn it this way, but every day, not just once a week, it's not self-care time. Every day you have to put yourself first because you can't care for the people that you serve or that you care for, um, that if you're not well. Right? So you have to schedule time. If you're a high-functioning individual, you live by your calendar, right? Schedule time every day for self-nurturing, for restorative practices at the end of the day, and don't compromise on this. You are effing worth it, and you should be your first priority every single day. And then beyond that, you have to intentionally nurture your connections with other human beings, whether they're your friends, your family, your neighbors, your colleagues, near or far. Right? Technology enables connections across the world these days and even out to outer space. These connections can only combat, or they can not only, sorry, combat loneliness, but they can contribute to a joyful life, right? I mean, there's plenty of evidence to support the notion that being connected to others is better for our wellbeing, both mentally and physically. So make sure that, that you're nurturing those connections before you need them and that you're being a good friend. You're showing up, right? And then lastly, protect your time. I mean, we all know it's our most valuable resource. It's our only non-renewable resource in life. And if you are a high-functioning individual, if you're an obliger, also known as a people pleaser, you have to protect your time because the takers, or excuse me, you have to, how does the saying go? You have to set boundaries because the takers don't have any. Right? It's your responsibility to say, actually, I'm prioritizing myself today, but I should have time to like connect and get coffee for 15 minutes tomorrow. Right? If you're, I would say if you're like I am, you're really at risk for burning out by not protecting your time. Right? Because we just have those characteristics that lead into that downward spiral. Everybody can benefit from therapy. Everyone. You should start going before you think you need to, and you should keep going even after you start feeling better. I started, I learned that one the hard way too. I stopped talking to my therapist that I had been seeing for 4 years and no one was really keeping tabs on that downward slide. Right. And it's never too late to course correct in life. Like you can start a different path. You can be your authentic self that maybe you'd been kind of suppressing for years. It's going to give you that positive power that not only makes you feel good, but attracts the kind of energy and the kind of community and friends and advisors. around you, right, that you need. But it really all starts with you being your authentic self so that you can draw in those kinds of supportive folks. So that's what I'd say is kind of like your foundational starting point. Everybody has mental health. Not everybody has a mental illness, but everybody has mental health, right? And so it is really your responsibility to kind of think about, well, I'm going to go to see the doctor to take care of my physical health and make sure I'm up on my preventative measures. Same thing for mental health, right? If you're an ally, I would say obviously all of the above, everything we just talked about. But I would add that, you know, to your question, Ed, if you know that someone is struggling, be proactive in checking in because newsflash, most folks who have depression don't realize they're slipping into a depressive episode. Maybe they haven't, maybe their warning signs are hard to note. And if especially if they're living alone, No one's kind of observing them. So be proactive in checking in. It can be hard for people to notice those things in themselves. If somebody opens up to you about their journey and ask how you can best support them, right? And thank them for sharing their story and ask how you can best support them. When I talk to my kids, they use the 3 H's. I say, do you need to be heard right now? Do you need a hug? Or do you need help? Right? Don't assume that they're coming to you for advice. Ask them how you can best support, and maybe it's all 3, right? But that's a, that's a really good way to start by thanking them and then ask them how you can be their ally, right? Because everybody needs something different from their friends and family. If they have a crisis plan, ask them to share a copy with you if they feel comfortable, right? It's going to depend on how close you are to that individual, what the nature of their journey is, but If they've been hospitalized for suicidal ideation, they have a crisis plan. Knowing their warning signs is huge. So mine are not sleeping, not eating, loss of joy in exercise, avoidance, isolation. That typically follows a period of hyperproductivity and extroversion. Knowing that my friends are in my corner and they know what to, to what kinds of questions to ask me when we check in, they're like, hey, how many meals have you had today? And I'm like, 3, right? But they know specifically what to ask me, right? And lastly, I would say if you have a mental health story that's personal to you and you feel comfortable sharing it, whether with one person or with the entire network of LinkedIn like I did, I encourage you to share it if you feel comfortable. It doesn't have to be super public. It could just be with a trusted friend. But it's so impactful when you just start that conversation and you let people know it's, we need to talk about it.

Yeah.

Right. It normalizes it.

Yeah, no, that's, I, I wrote down a ton of notes, Sarah. That's super, super, super good. And the main takeaway I took from, hey, what are the, some of the key messages from, from what you wrote about LinkedIn, which we will post in the, in the show notes, is that any one of us can have a mental health crisis.

Right.

And it can just pop up if we're not. Especially if we're not doing the things that you talked about. And I won't repeat all, repeat them all, but you know, putting yourself first, the self-care, um, seeing a, or having a relationship with a therapist, uh, even if you don't think you need one. All those things, super, super good. 'Cause yeah, it's like, uh, no one thinks, no one's like, most people don't prepare, uh, expect a heart attack. Uh, but the fact is, over time, right. you're building up and all of a sudden.

Bam.

But it wasn't a sudden bam. It was all these things. And so this keen awareness is really key. And then, and then I love all the messages for the allies. Again, I'm not going to repeat them all because you, you, uh, very eloquently, but there is a role for all of us to play, help one another out because all of us, and this is something else you said, have mental health. We all have mental health. Uh, it's like your physical health. You got to take care of it. You got to be proactive. You got to do things. You got to be. Because stuff can happen. So I love it. So thank you so much again for, for sharing and being super authentic. And I will post again, your, the message from LinkedIn, uh, because it was so super, super powerful. So let's transition into leadership because I know we're covering a lot with you in a short amount of time. Um, but let's, I just want to ask you like one question around leadership, because as you know, you are a role model for many, especially because you are authentic. And real. So, what would you share to aspiring leaders who want to be like Sarah Harper or, or a leader? Not, they don't wanna be you exactly, but a leader like you.

Right, right, right. I follow you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I think I learned, again, I kind of learned this through trial and error, but I, I was sort of programmed from birth to just keep goal setting and keep moving forward. And that finish line, you know, you never reach it. Right? And so I, this inflection point in my life was a gift. Like somebody like forcibly hit the pause button, right? And I had to sit with all this stuff, right? And I had some people who literally had no stake in my success, who had no idea who I was. And I was locked in a building with them and I was learning from their really tough questions, right? In a very, but tough and supportive and nurturing. And I had to sit with my own kind of Demons, which is very much a metaphorical term. Um, so for me, I, you know, Chris Ross, he's a good friend of yours. He co-authored your book Diagnosed, and he's a mentor of mine and, and a friend. And I had reached out to him before my hospitalization and I said, Chris, I think I wanna be a CIO. Can I be, can I, can I join you at work one day? Like, we'll do a bring your, bring your mentee to work day. And he is like, oh, that'll be so fun. I love it. Right? And I ended up being in the hospital on, during the time I was supposed to shadow him. And I thought to myself, why did I wanna do this? Right? And this, I'm getting to answer your question here, right? Like, I do feel like aspiring leaders, right? They're, they're basically just like overachievers, right? And many of them don't know why they want to achieve. And so like you do, just like we tell folks when they're designing healthcare technology, like you have to figure out your why. Why are you doing this? Right? And so ask yourself truly, why do I want to be promoted? Why do I want to end up in the C-suite or whatever your goal is, right? Uh, what do you like about your life right now? Um, that if you do get that promotion, are you going to be able to set up clear boundaries where it won't go away? Or are the things that really make you happy in your life, are those going to have to go away so that you can achieve this goal? And then, you know, what are the cost benefits, right? Are you going to be fulfilled? Uh, why or why not? I mean, there's no right answer, but you need to be asking yourself those questions. And if you do decide to go for it, because this goal is really important to you for reasons that you can clearly articulate on paper, then what guardrails are you going to put in place now? And what habits are you going to develop now before you get to that role that are going to protect you so you don't lose sight of your personal why? You don't lose sight of what makes life joyful for you and you don't deprioritize that, right? Like, what are, what are your non-negotiables? So that's one, I would say, figure out your why. The other is, for me, it's like practice some kind of daily reflection. Um, and it doesn't have to be journaling. It doesn't have to be sitting crisscross applesauce and going, oh, right. I mean, many of us like can't do that, right? I mean, we're just. For, for whatever reason, especially if you have anxiety, it's really hard to sit still. So I like to run. Like the rocking motion of running is meditative and it's when I process the previous day. It's when I plan for the next. It's when my most creative ideas come to my brain. So like figure out a time when you can, or a method that works for you to reflect that is, uh, excuse me. Fundamental practice for any leader. Um, and then lastly, I will say, I don't think enough leaders have this in them. Well, they have it in them, but they've buried it. Okay. It's never too late to unleash your inner child. Okay. I know, Ed, you and I, when we last spoke on my podcast, was about innovation, right? And you had said something like, how people dress is kind of a signal to you.

Yeah.

Like, you can't be innovative if you're wearing a black suit and a black tie and black socks, right? Don't tell me you're innovative if you're going to dress like that, right? So like, have a little fun, right? Whether it's with your wardrobe or, or how your presentation style. Uh, we all have an inner child that's been tucked away. I want you to let them out. It's time for recess. It's going to help you feel energized at work. It's going to help you feel joyful at work. And it's going to help you connect with people and be more creative and innovative. And ultimately, I really truly believe that that's going to impact like the bottom line of whatever organization you work for. When people have fun at work, I would love to do this research project, the company makes more money.

Well, Sarah, this has been super, super interesting. I took, uh, no one can, no one's going to see it probably, but I've took a couple of different pages of notes. Uh, it's just fascinating everything about you in terms of who you are as a person and as a leader, but definitely about the suicidality. And we've learned so much, so much to unpack there. So thank you for being a guest and being vulnerable on Digital Voices.

Thanks for having me, Ed. I really appreciate this platform to connect with your listeners on such an important topic. Thank you for listening to Digital Voices Podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review.

And most importantly, thanks again for listening.