The Future of Medical Informatics (ft. Tamara Sunbul MD)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marx.

Welcome to another edition of Digital Voices. This is Ed Marx, and so excited that you're with me and my friend, Dr. Tamara Sunbolt. Tamara, welcome to Digital Voices.

Thank you, Edward. I'm very, very excited about this.

I know, I am as well. We've talked about this for a long time, and that goes into the history of when we first met, but we got put together by HIMSS actually. And they were like, Tamara's like one of the greatest clinician informaticists in the world. And you're going to be in that part of the world doing like a HIMSS Asia PAC in Indonesia. And the two of you should get together and develop like the CIO training. And because a lot of the CIOs in that part of the world, don't have access to the same type of training that we've had access to in the West. And so you and I got together along with our colleague Gareth, and we put together this amazing training.

And it was truly different, right? So totally different, right? We revamped the way it was delivered. I, I thought it was a really, really nice course that we did together.

Yeah, it was super interactive and real-world-ish. And then I think they had to expand the room a couple times because the registrations were so were so big. But anyways, we got to work together a lot before we ever met, so online developing this course. And then of course, then we met in person and have seen each other a couple times since because you're also super, super active in hymns globally, which we'll talk into as well. But that's sort of how we first met. And again, we've been talking about, hey, we got to get on the podcast together for a few years. Glad it finally happened. But tomorrow, the most important question we have is, what are the songs on your playlist? What kind of music do you like to listen to?

Oh, well, so usually I like to listen to trendy stuff. Sometimes some Arabic stuff. I think I like some more upbeat songs. So, um, one that I usually have going on, especially after a hard day, is I Will Survive to remind me that if it doesn't, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, right? So just to remind me of strength and perseverance, um, and that kind of always uplifts my spirits.

Yeah, that's good. We do have a Spotify playlist called Digital Voices, and I don't know if we have any Arabic music. Is there any particular artist that comes to mind that we might be able to add to there?

Maybe Amr Diab.

All right, we're going to look that up, add it to our playlist. So really, it's a global playlist. What about life message or mantra? Are there— is there a quote or some sort of words that you like to live by?

Well, I will say If you wanna go up, you need to go down and go deep actually. Okay? So every step that you're taking forward in life or your leadership, it's always followed by a moment of struggle or reflection or sacrifice. And I, I've learned that the hard way, right? When it, when in the beginning you don't see it, but then after a pattern kind of repeats itself, you, you kind of see those patterns there. So, and the deeper those roots are, the straw, the taller you're gonna grow. And, and that's where success comes from is just Persevering, doing that hard unseen work, facing those challenges and staying grounded and helping out with others. And that's where you build those strong foundations and just don't give up because it will eventually, you will get there, right? In the end.

Yeah. Wow. That is super good insight because a lot of times we do everything we can to avoid the valleys, but it's actually, as you're saying, in the valleys where you learn and grow.

And then that's where you grow.

Yeah. And then the peaks are even bigger when you get to the top. Yeah. I love that. That's super. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up? All that kind of stuff.

So I was born and raised in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. My father worked for a company called Aramco. So they call us kind of the Aramco brats. So it's more of a community. And that's where I was raised. My family really valued education and service, volunteering. My father loved Healthcare. My mom's dream was to become a dentist, which she never was able to realize that dream because she was supporting her brothers going to medical school. So I kind of, that shaped my sense of responsibility and I thought, you know what, I really wanted to help people. So I thought this is something that I'd like to do. And when I grew up, I was like, I was always the trouble child, I guess, always asking too many questions, experimenting. And I think that kind of that curiosity Got me in a lot of trouble, but it got me to where I am today.

Yeah, that's, that's super cool. And today, do you still live in Saudi?

Yeah, so I still live in here in Saudi Arabia. I live in Dhahran in the Eastern Province, but I actually have a new job, so I actually fly every week to Jeddah. I fly back on the weekends here to spend time with my family.

All right, that's awesome. And so what got you into healthcare?

Well, I would say it was a calling, just plain and simple. I'm simple. I just, I saw how health It kind of impacts every person's life. So I wanted to be a part of the ecosystem. And then going through healthcare, I knew I just didn't want to stop at just that one patient at a time. So I wanted to grow more and I wanted to shape systems that cares for thousands and impact. So it's that impact value that really got me there.

Yeah. And then you ended up being one of the pioneers of medical informatics. So you then started serving at Johns Hopkins in the Middle East. And tell us about how that evolved. Like, how'd you get so interested in it? Because today, you know, you're considered, you know, world's foremost expert.

Well, it started off when I was younger. Another passion I had was working with computers since I was a child. And then after medical school, the first thing I went to was I joined this health information management committee. And it was, in those days, it was just about paper files, right? And then I started to see what we can do with technology to change it. And then came the implementation of our first and our second and our third EMRs. It just grew with that through the years. And I saw how bringing those transformation efforts and bridging that clinical care with that technology changes the way we deliver healthcare for both clinicians as well as for patients.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. And you've also A really big supporter, participant, engaged with HIMSS. Tell us about how that started and why you continue to do it.

So HIMSS has been a powerful platform in my journey. It started me as just an engaged learner. So I went on the website. I started to do some work to do that CP HIMSS, probably when it was just starting off. And then I started engaging more volunteering on work groups, volunteering with different task forces. And then I Started speaking and I did my, actually first did my first poster session in one of those physician symposiums in HIMSS. And then I thought, you know what, why don't I try to be a speaker? So then I became a speaker and it just keep on, it kept on growing and growing, moving to becoming a mentor. And right now I actually chair the HIMSS Middle East community. And I think it's, this is where thought leadership meets action and enabling collaboration across borders and discipline. Really. I think HIMSS is a great community to learn and grow with, and you can never stop growing.

Yeah, and you are an amazing speaker. So anyone listening and looking for a speaker on all things medical informatics, IT, tech, digital transformation, all that good stuff, Tamara is your person. So we'll definitely put your information in the show notes so people can easily find you. So I know a lot of people probably ask you this question, and that is, Hey, what's healthcare like in the Middle East? So if there's a way to sort of broaden it beyond Saudi Arabia and maybe the Middle East in general, unless there's a lot of disparities even with that region, how does it compare and contrast with North America? So predominantly our listeners are North America. Yeah.

Well, I would first start by saying both regions strive for excellence, right? But the difference here I see is that in the Middle East, it's exciting. It's an exciting phase of acceleration. So we're lucky because we're not burdened by legacy infrastructure, so we're able to leapfrog, especially in digital. In North America and Europe have more of a depth of maturity, but sometimes slower movement due to, of course, the complexity of systems, insurance, and others. In the Middle East, vision drives a lot of bold decisions. And Vision 2030 in Saudi Arabia is a perfect example of that where the country has set like a goal and everything that we're doing works to that goal. And a lot of it includes digital transformation. So, We're kind of lucky in that sort of way for acceleration.

Well, Tamara, I know when I served at the Cleveland Clinic, it was our hospital in Abu Dhabi that was pushing us to go faster with adoption, especially when it came to sort of like patient centricity, patient experience. Do you find that to be the case generally?

Sure. I mean, yeah, especially around the Middle East and the Gulf states because their countries put these visions of and these kind of goalposts for people to, or for for institutions and systems to get to. So there's a lot of push to get there and it's not really easy to leapfrog without technology, right? So technology is the biggest enabler. And I guess there's a lot of push to get to where we need to go and launch these new systems and get to our future visions of our countries.

And you served at Johns Hopkins in the Middle East for quite a long time. What's one, I know it's gonna be hard to keep it to one, but what's one thing that you're most proud of that you and your team accomplished?

Well, I think one of the highlights, I think, well, definitely I would start with patients, right? So launching that patient-centered digital tools, our digital front door, I think empowering patients is probably the first thing that I would say for me, because patients should be our partner in care, right? I think the second thing I would say would probably be designing tools and workflows for our clinicians to reduce their burden, giving them more better data, and allowing them to focus more on patient care, not paperwork, right? And it wasn't just about going digital, it was about restoring purpose and joy in the practice of medicine and making them feel that they were actually adding value and not there sitting there being bombarded with just paperwork and administrative tasks.

Yeah, and as you shared earlier, you're now the CIO of Fiqi, Care Group. Tell us a little bit about that role.

So it's a really exciting next chapter for me because Fauqihah Care is an innovative organization with deep roots in Saudi Arabia. They just launched their very, very large AI Center of Excellence in healthcare, which is very rare that you'll find such big investment into healthcare AI. And as the group CIO there, I'm focused on harmonizing systems, future-proofing the infrastructure, and ensuring digital empowers, again, not burdens our clinicians and patients and getting ready for the next step of value-based care and population health and all the exciting things that are coming our way here in Saudi Arabia.

Yeah, that's super cool. What do you think is one thing we can look forward to in the future when tech and clinical practice emerge together? Like, I've seen you speak and it's so powerful on CRISPR and that sort of technology. Is there anything else like that? Or you can certainly talk about CRISPR as well, because I think that's super fascinating.

Well, definitely I'm excited about gene editing because I think it's the future of disease where we not cure, because right now when we treat disease, we just treat the symptoms. And even one person, one day he'll respond to some medication, another day he won't. So, but actually getting down to the gene that causes that or that mutated gene, right? And being able to treat the illness itself, like Saudi Arabia, for example, we do have a good number of patients with sickle cell disease and transfusion-dependent thalassemia. So now this is a thing of the past where you can actually use CRISPR. So it's basically just like doing a bone marrow transplant, except you're getting your own autologous bone marrow that's been just adjusted without that gene, and you're cured from that disease forever. So I think there's more to come in the future, especially around CRISPR gene editing. I see a lot of changes with a lot of future also with gut microbiome and a lot of research that is happening in that area. which every day we hear that gut microbiome, for example, is the mother's gut is linked to autism in a child. So your risk of developing autism and all these different, now they're saying even Alzheimer's is related to activating Alzheimer's, actually related to also your gut microbiome. So because it's associated with certain strains. So I think the more that we move forward and the more we map genotype with phenotype, know the genetics, epigenetics, the more we will be able to change the way we deliver medicine and also the way we cure diseases in the future.

Yeah, there's no doubt this is like a super, super exciting time to be in roles like we have. I'm going to switch gears a little bit just to leadership. You mentioned when you were young, you were a very curious person. Is there anything else that sort of led you, maybe you had the thought That you are looking back, it makes sense now that you were becoming a leader?

So yeah, I'm, I don't think it was like a particular moment, but more of a pattern when people would come to me and when things got like really tough or they have problems, right? And that's when I kind of actually realized that leadership is not about titles. It's about taking responsibility and especially when it's uncomfortable and Staying steady when others can't. It's just the way you persevere when things, things don't go right. And that's what I think, that's when the true leaders emerges, is just your ability to do this time in, time out, and to be able to deal with it effectively.

Yeah. What would, what would be one or two things that you might share to the graduating class? I know you have kids and let's say they're graduating from college. What are one or two things that you might share with aspiring leaders to really hone in on in a particular skill?

I would say, if I had to say something for young leaders is just own it, right? Own your growth, your stumbles, and your impact, because if you own it, you'll be able to take charge of it. And, and I think that's one of the major skills that, that, that make you an effective leader.

And how do you Recharge your batteries and remain fresh. So Tamara, you're, like I said, you're a world-renowned speaker. You have been in many different cultures and you have a family and you have this big job. So like, what do you do personally, like just to chill, relax, and, you know, refresh yourself?

So I try to unplug when I can. I love to run. Okay. So just getting out there, putting my headphones on. and just, which I know you should not be doing, but, and just going and just chilling there. That helps me actually sometimes coming back after a run, I've kind of worked out everything that happened that day and I come back with solutions for those problems. It's amazing how running or exercise and just being there helps you deconstruct things and think in a more clearer kind of perspective, right? I also love traveling and definitely hiking and things like that. I was in a conference a few months ago in Peru and I did the Machu Picchu hike, and I actually had the time of my life. So I think a lot of, I do that to kind of unplug. And another thing is I love to surround my people, myself with people who energize me very much like you, Edward. And so, and, and that really makes a difference because it's contagious, right? So the people you surround yourself with really make a big impact on you. Sometimes being with people who drain you, that's, that can be very hard. So I always try to stick around people who energize me rather than drain me.

Wow. Tamar, you dropped us a lot of great nuggets of wisdom. I really liked your life message and mantra, to go up, you got to go down. And you're viewed, like I said a couple times, you're a highly esteemed leader in the industry. And for you to admit and be humble and say, it's not always at— you're not always at the peak. You've gone through like everyone else. It's normal. It's how you respond. And you shared that beautifully, how you do that. You talked about leadership is not a title, but action. So true. We all know people who have titles take no action. They're not leaders. And then, you know, just owning it as great advice for aspiring leaders. And you mentioned several great things, but one not to forget is surround yourself with people who give you energy, not drain you. Otherwise, you'll never be able to recharge. What did we miss? Or is there anything you want to double down on?

I'll give you the last Okay, so it's probably something close to my heart. So I'd love to double down on how important it is for us to build capacity in others, right, to give back. For me, especially a woman in digital health, right? So I know we talk a lot about transformation, but it won't be sustainable unless we invest in people. So again, I want my legacy not just to be the systems I've helped shape, but in the leaders I've helped grow. And I think that's kind of, that should be on all of our missions as leaders is to think of how do we get that next generation There, how do, how do we open the door for others the same way people in the past have opened the doors for us? So, yep, I'd like to end with that.

Yeah, brilliantly stated and a great way to end our time together. Dr. Tamara Sunbolt, thank you for being a guest on Digital Voices.

Thank you, Ed, for having me.

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