The Journey of Scott Becker in Healthcare (ft. Scott Becker)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation challenges and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marx.

Ed here. Welcome to another edition of Digital Voices. So glad you joined us. And one of the reasons that people listen to us is we have great guests like Scott Becker.

Scott, welcome to Ed, thank you so much for having me and looking forward to visiting with you today. Always a great pleasure and inspiring to visit with you. So thank you very much for having me.

No, thank you. And I feel the same way. And I think maybe my very first podcast that I ever did was with you on one of your podcasts. So thank you for having me way back then. And now we're doing our own podcast and you're our guest. So it's kind of fun, you know, 360. So, we have known each other for quite some time. I don't remember the exact first time that we met, but I'm sure it was at one of your conferences, Scott. And I remember being there and you were so gracious and I was with Texas Health at the time and you recognized Texas Health as a great organization. And I was there to be the recipient of, of that particular accolade. And, and I've loved you ever since. You're just a great human and you put together all sorts of great events and I've been able to take advantage of so many of them. So, so we go back a long ways, I guess, is another way.

Yes. No, and we're a huge fan and obviously followed your career from the get-go. And really to sort of reciprocate the praise and thanks, when we were first getting into at Becker's Healthcare, the health technology space, you were one of the first people that was a big, big leader in the area and still is, that was so gracious to include us in what you were doing and to be a part of it. So we're immensely and eternally thankful as well. There's always a handful of people that were ahead of sort of the rest of the crowd in joining us in different things that we've been doing over the years. And you were really right at the front, particularly in the health technology area. So I've always been really thankful to yourself as well, and obviously huge fan of your energy in all that you do.

Yeah, well, thank you, Scott. And the most important question though that we have On digital voices, or what songs are on your playlist? Sure.

So I would say less a playlist than, and I'm dating myself because constantly the songs that come across my radio or my SiriusXM are '70s on '70s songs. So it's things like the Neil Young songs from back in the day. Not so much Warren Zevon, doesn't seem to show up as much, but we're still a big Rush and AC/DC and Burt fan and so forth and so on. So, you know, I just watched the Bob Dylan movie and that was, As I was growing up, he was just a decade before us, but was very big in our time. And I love the folksy ballad type songs. So anything that's got sort of a story to it, like the story of Hurricane Carter, the other kinds of things that he used to do, you know, we used to love all that stuff. The Neil Young, My My Hey Hey, Rock and Roll Is Here to Stay, you know, all those things. You know, Seger, like I think about as I watch the stock market, I think about the Kenny Rogers stuff. You know, all of those artists from that generation, you know, Carly Simon, I just, I still love because it's just not music. It tells a story and I just love that. So there's a lot of it.

Yeah. I love that too. That resonates with sort of my style. What about life message and mantra? Are there words or quotes that you live your life by? Yeah.

I don't know if there's words and quotes that I live my life by, but there's a couple concepts. One is this concept that life is not binary. In almost every issue, the truth, the reality is somewhere in between the different political positions, the different perspectives that people have. And so whatever conflict you're talking about, whatever issue that you're working on, the truth in how to approach it, the truth of the reality of it is almost always somewhere in between.

Yeah.

And then the other thing we think about, and part of it comes out of both mix of working with family, working with close friends, is this concept of it's good and it's bad, but it's okay. There's good days, there's bad days, but things are all okay. And then once in a while you get something that's just not okay. Like we had a nephew that died, very close nephew that died of brain cancer a few years ago. And so you have things that are outside of that orbit of okay, but most everything, it's okay. The market falls 10%, Generally will be okay. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, but, and then there's things that aren't okay, but most things you could work through and you gotta have that constant perspective. And you've had life issues throughout your life. I've had life issues in my life. One of the great phrases I got from a close colleague who was the, he's either the chief financial officer or chief strategy officer of a system now, was that no one goes through this life unscathed. And so we're all going to take our lumps in different ways, and it's generally going to be okay. And then once in a while you hit a tragedy, it's just not okay. But those are two of the thoughts I sort of live by. Life is not binary, you know, and then, you know, and that things are going to be okay. They're going to be good, they're going to be bad, they're going to be okay. And then once in a while there's something that's just not, and there's nothing we can do about that.

I love that. I was just imagining what the world would be like if everyone lived in that sort of like there's a That life's not binary, right? And we would find that middle ground and we would not have so many of the hassles that we have to deal with. For sure.

Yeah. No, we're a huge believer in that, that almost on every one of these conflicts, every one of these issues, the truth is somewhere in between. This trade war thing. Yes, we've been getting killed on trade for a long time. Some companies are unfairly tariffing us. And at the same time, we need some answer to it, but maybe not as draconian an answer as we had. but the truth and reality of how do we solve it is somewhere in between. And I find that that's the reality of most all of these issues, that the reality is somewhere in between.

Yeah, no, I love that. All right, so we know Scott Becker from Becker's, as my colleagues and I refer to it. So we have all these conferences and we have all the media and all the great data sources that we get. And we know that Scott Becker is a Harvard-trained lawyer and a partner McGuire and Woods and author. We're going to talk about the book, but let me just ask you this core question. Who are you, Scott Becker?

Sure. I guess that's a fair question. I grew up, and it's so hard for people to relate to today. It's so hard for people to understand this today, I think, is that I grew up in what is in the United States a post-Holocaust community. I grew up in a place called Skokie, a sort of middle-class suburb. That had one of the highest percentage of Holocaust survivors in the country. So many immigrants faced different stories, but similar stories. My grandparents were the first ones here. My parents came here when they were very little kids, but everybody was indelibly marked by the experience of, in our community, of people coming out of Russia and Poland and Europe. Half my close friends' parents were Holocaust survivors. Others had perished in the Holocaust. And why that's relevant, it was a community with so much nervous energy because nobody ever felt truly safe. And I think it's probably true of like how many people feel today. On the day of like, you know, and I hate to hearken back to religious things, there's so much the audience doesn't like it or doesn't want to hear it, stuff like that. On the day of what was my bar mitzvah at 13, the neo-Nazis marched in Skokie and all these things had an indelible sort of mark on your sort of life. You know, it was literally the day of the bar mitzvah and people were coming to march and we weren't scared. It was just part of life in the world we lived in. It wasn't sort of like people used bad names and people weren't overly sensitive to it either. It was sort of like, it was sort of the world we grew up in and it was just fascinating. And as the world has evolved and changed and so forth, so grew up in that type of community. You know, my parents were in and out of financial situations, different troubles, stuff like that. As a kid growing up in that community, You had a choice. You could be a lawyer, a doctor, an accountant. Those are your 3 choices, or you were banned from the household. And so, and I say it facetiously, and you hear the same story from immigrants who come from Asia. They're allowed to be engineers or lawyers or doctors, anything else, their parents kill them. And I say that joking because my parents wouldn't have killed me, but it was sort of like, in a Catholic family, you were either a professional or a priest, whatever it is, whatever it is that you had. But your choices, and they were very marked by those sort of at that time, upper middle class, middle class choices. Trying to grow into the next generation and so forth. But that's where I come from. And like all of us have our own story. Like people will be like, oh my God, you've been so successful with this, so successful with that. And what you remember always is being a 12-year-old and a little bit shopping in the Husky section. So you never forget those things. So you never feel like you're too successful. You never feel like it's like, so your parents did well and then went broke. And so you're never too comfortable.

Yeah.

And it's okay. And it's all okay. No, I have friends that are very calm people. I, by nature, I'm a little bit more anxious, a little neurotic. It's like, do I go on the scale today? Do I not? Do I go look at the portfolio today or do I not? And we try and measure that anxiety and that nervous energy day to day and channel it into activities. But I assume that I'm probably a lot like you. You're always doing something. And part of us use that as an antidote to either anxiety, depression, uncertainty, whatever it is, to keep ourselves moving in the right direction. And, you know, I'm always a big fan of it. I'll shut up in a second, Ed. I'm a fan of 3 states of life. I'm either too slow, in which I get depressed. I'm busy, which is better than being slow, or I'm busy with purpose, which is sort of optimal in sort of the Maslow's hierarchy of concepts. Busy with purpose is the best place to be. But for me, Busy is better than not being busy. And so in terms of like trying to stay relatively sane and okay and healthy. So we look at it that way.

I love that. It's so good. I know you started in law. We talked about law. We talked about Harvard Law School, and then you got into healthcare pretty quickly because of your practice. But tell us a little bit more about that and then tell us the journey into what we would refer to, again, we being sort of my peer group, you know, in healthcare, looking at Becker to Becker's. So how did that happen?

Sure. Yeah, no, certainly. Certainly. So I was a, I, as a young lawyer in my 20s, ended up in what is a healthcare department of a large law firm. Now, the beauty of a healthcare department is you were industry-specific, but you didn't have to be so tied to where you're doing litigation transactions or regulatory. You're able to mix some of that as you started to figure out yourself and what you wanted to do. So that was a great thing. And ultimately I gravitated towards doing transactional work with a regulatory bent in the healthcare world. You know, worked for surgery centers, hospital health systems, and investors in healthcare. As I started to do that, one of the things that became clear in big law firms is you were much healthier if you had your own brand, if you built your own practical client base. That way you sort of like had some control over your life. And when you're a young, young lawyer, you see lawyers either that are young lawyers that on a Friday afternoon when they're supposed to go have fun, are told to get on a plane to go to New York, or that are 60 and the same thing happens. They have no control of their life if they don't have their own brand and haven't built their own sort of situation. So I started to try and sort of incrementally build a practice and build in the healthcare sector. And if you look at what people would think of it today as thought leadership, back then they really didn't have a name for it, but trying to be a thought leader in healthcare. And as I started sort of moving forward, I'm an incrementalist by nature. Some people could whiteboard and see 10 years ahead of them. Other people are incrementalists and sort of, they stay active, they're busy, and they connect dots. And that's more how I am than a great long-term thinker. At some point, the thought leadership stuff that we were doing, it was a newsletter, it was a website before there were really websites, and there was a conference. At some point it became clear this was one really interesting, I really enjoyed it. It was helpful for building a legal practice, and it could be built into something more significant. So this goes back 20, 25 years ago, and at that point we started to hire people. I started to hire people full-time into that business, which is Becker's Healthcare. We built out an editorial team, we built out a commercial team. We're fortunate to hire some fantastic people, some of which are still leaders in the company today, one of which leads the company today. And it was, and we were able to sort of continue to grow. And then probably the, some of the big incremental steps were, you know, first really looking at it as a full-time thing, not just sort of a part-time practice thought leadership thing. Second was starting to hire people full-time. And third was at some point 20-plus years ago, putting together a sort of strategic plan of what we were trying to do. And at that point, we expanded into hospitals and health systems and into health IT and orthopedics and spine. And that's when we started to become a real business and a real sort of like medium for the healthcare industry. At some point, we couldn't afford to compete with Modern Healthcare in print. Modern Healthcare is a great, great publication, still is. It was part of Crain's Communications. They were sending out 60,000 issues by print a week. I had self-funded, and anybody that's self-funded any entrepreneurial effort knows I would've gone broke in 2 weeks with an editorial team that was like, we should be doing more print. And I'm like, I'm gonna be broke.

Right.

And so we ended up gravitating towards trying to be digital first and events first versus print. And that ended up being by necessity a good choice. And at some point we overtook the other competitors in terms of digital footprint and how many website visitors, and we still track those things today. You know, where we're at on the web, where we're at on the podcast, where we're on the newsletters and stuff like that. But no, it was, that was the journey. That was sort of like, it was an adjunct to somebody, like you became a public speaker. That was an adjunct to your professional career. And then at some point decided you really enjoy it and doubled down on it and tripled down on it. And you do a great job of it.

Yeah. I love the incremental approach. Did your kids influence you at all also? Because, you know, did you see them like sort of advance with social media and different things and you're like, I wonder.

Yes and no. The kids were really young. The challenge was really like doing 3 things: law practice, media company, and being heavily, heavily involved with the kids. I mean, those were the challenges. Anybody that's built a business, anything serious, knows, went through years. None of this guys' nights out stuff, none of this golf stuff, none of those things for a very long time. It wasn't until the last 5, 7 years that I allowed myself to spend a lot more time on those kinds of endeavors, but it was, the kids were really young. The changing world was, you know, at one time, 20 years ago, or pick a time, you could leave your phone in the car at night and your phone could be just for business.

Yeah.

And one of the horrendous transitions was when your phone started to have everything on it, your personal and your business. And that was the only way The people that are important to you could find you. So you can't ever, unfortunately, leave your phone for too long anymore because if your kids need to find you, if your parents need to find you, whoever needs to find you, you're sort of, you need your phone at all times. And so it was harder to take those breaks mentally, emotionally for everything because you always use it. It's unfortunate, but it's reality. So you live with it and it is what it is.

Yeah. I would love to talk more about this and I do want to get to your book. So let me just ask one last question sort of on your career, and then we're going to jump into the Entrepreneur's Edge. You've done a lot of VIP interviews, and if there's one, I know it's going to be hard, but if there's one person you'd like to go back and just could have a beer with, like, because you had that sort of rapport, could see that sort of rapport, which one of these VIPs would it be?

Yeah, I wouldn't say there's any specific one. There's 4 or 5 that have stood out to me for different reasons that we've really, really enjoyed, and they're an eclectic list. You have 2 from the political side, President Bush and Hillary Clinton, and I have enjoyed visiting with both of them a tremendous amount. Both a total pleasure. I did not grow up a Hillary fan. When Hillary was working through the HillaryCare, whatever, in the Bill Clinton White House, I was not particularly a fan. At the end of the day, I'm not against the Affordable Care Act, and quite frankly, I'm very thrilled with parts of it. Which has extended coverage to a ton of Americans. And so I'm thrilled with that. I think we should have coverage for everybody and we have to fix access as well. But Hillary, from where I came from in thinking about her, to actually getting to know her, just absolutely adore her as a person. President Bush is the same, just an absolute pleasure of a person. And then there's 2 people from the basketball world, of all places. There's Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who is just a fascinatingly intelligent, thoughtful person, just a really great pleasure. And then there's Bill Walton, who spoke with us several times over the years and passed away this past year. But Bill was just an incredible person and connector and high-energy person and just would always— and a warm person. The other person that ended up being very warm towards the end of their career and would call and follow up with me post-conference, after conferences, before conferences, and to talk about stuff was Bobby Knight. And Bobby Knight started off with such, like, such a hard guy and such a challenging guy and ended up being like, you know, one of the nicest people in his own way as he got a little bit more, you know, older and was like, I remember being on a podium with him and Mike Ditka at a time when Coach Ditka was really suffering dementia, Alzheimer's. And Bobby Knight, and people from our generation know Bobby Knight, younger generation not so much, but he was a fiery basketball coach. And he would just go out of his way in front of 1,000, 2,000 people to make Coach Ditko look good. And it was one of the most compassionate things I had seen. And as you got to know Bobby Knight more and more, he would call from the golf course. What are we going to talk about next time? And he was just a lot of fun. And Bill Walton was the same thing. Bill Walton, for all his worldwide fame, would call or text and say, Scott, I know we're talking again in June. And it's part of how he just manages himself. When you do the same thing, you're very good about making sure you're going to speak, that you're going to go be prepared and talk. But they were very professional. Quint Studer, Quint Studer, which should be a household name in healthcare. It's one of the first guys that spoke at one of our meetings. And he would call me weeks before. This was on Quint, but nobody knew Scott Becker. And Quint was a worldwide name in healthcare and as good as they come. And would call and say, what do you want me to add to the conference? What should I do? What should I talk about? And you sort of get a sense of, oh, now I see why he's been so deeply successful. You know, there's a guy now who's not a household name, Dr. Shiv Rao, who is the CEO founder of a company called Abridge.

Yeah.

And he's got the same thoughtful, deep quality that a couple of these guys have. I mean, he's very different obviously than Bobby Knight. He's a very thoughtful guy. But he's how Quint was. He wants to talk and really understand the connections between everything, the interaction, everything. And it's a fascinating quality. And sometimes I am so impatient and so sometimes very quick and not always all that deep. And so sometimes I'm so impressed by people that have that deep thoughtfulness. But when you ask me the question, who did I, who have I loved over the years? You know, people like yourself, George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Walton, Bobby Knight. I mean, there's so many more. There's so many more. Venus Williams is speaking again soon, and she's someone who wasn't as comfortable in front of a mic. And once you talked to her for a while, was just a warm, great pleasure. And some people, not understanding their fame, are less comfortable in front of the mic. And people like that, that are a little bit comfortable, warm up as they get going, are an unusual pleasure to visit with. And Venus Williams was just like, you know, Was phenomenal. And so excited to have her come back this year.

Yeah, you're an artist at that. I, your style and approach, I think is what really brings it to life for everyone in the audience. All right. Entrepreneur's Edge. Tell us the story behind the book. So it just came out. Tell us the story. Sure.

So we did a book called The Entrepreneur's Edge. It's actually the second version of the book. The first version was so bad I had to go back to redo it. So this is the second version of a book that originally came out under a little bit different title a couple years ago. What happens is, you know, we come back to a lot of, you know, you asked me this great question today about what are a couple of the mantras that you live by or theories that you live by. And so all of us have a whole number of different business lessons, investing lessons that at some point we've thought a lot about. And I was trying to put those all in one place and trying to figure out how to put them in one place so I'd reference to them for the long run. This was sort of my effort at that. Self-published book. You can't self-publish a book and have it do too great. It's just almost impossible because the big publishers really control distribution. You and I know when people talk about things going viral, very few things really go viral without somebody putting in a ton of grunt work to try and make it go viral. So I didn't have that energy or thought on the book. It was more to put together a collection of my thoughts in one place. There's about 40, 50 thoughts on business, about 20 thoughts on investing. There are things that have come from sort of hard-earned knowledge, some losses, some wins, and really learning about. So it was all put in one place. Now it's done fine. It's not, you know, I get the good— the royalty checks are enough to take me maybe to pay my Starbucks bill every month, maybe on a good month, and nowhere near the money I put into it. So money-losing, purposeful hobby, trying to figure it out. You know, we always try and figure out— you became sort of a really recognized public speaker, and we're always trying to figure out where do we want to put our energies as we sort of, you know, have built these platforms at the law firm and Becker Sonka, and where do we put our energies next? So the book was part of that. I tried to put them together, thoughts in one place. My favorite story of the book, and there's very few moments, you know, if you have children, I have children, the children are sort of like, you know, they'll look at your book and be like, well, that's kind of dumb, Dad, but okay, thank you, Dad. You know, and you're really writing it as much for your kids as anyplace because you're trying to put all these thoughts in one place. And so if you want anybody to see it, it's your kids. Like, yeah, these are some of my mantras on investing in business and stuff like that. So But the kids could care less. But so one of my daughter's friends is over, she has about 5 or 6 of her friends over and they're in their mid-20s. And one of the kids asks, you know, Mr. Becker, how do you think about beginning investing? And so this is my favorite moment of the year because I'm like, oh my God, I have a chapter on that in the book. So it's like, so let me give you the book. And he's like, who wrote this? I'm like, I wrote this. This is like, you have all these moments with the book, you know, it's like, you know, you know, the Amazon bestseller stuff. It's all a game to getting all the people to buy the book on the same date. It's not real. It's like you check to see how many people have really bothered to review it, what comments there are, and those are small dopamine fixes. But we know that the Amazon bestseller stuff, and this is not a knock on it, but we know that's just a game. That's just sort of like, and what you really want is friends that have read it say, hey, I really liked it. It really resonated with me, or I like that about it. And then other friends, one of my best friends said, I like it, but you could have got a lot deeper into some of the stories and what you've done and stuff like that. And I take that he's not wrong, but it's like I had written a bunch of books when I was younger. And so the thought of writing a book again was just like, it was just like, I found, as you find, you get much more day-to-day about the daily connectivity with people. And books are a lot of work unless you learn how to do it in a certain way. And I've not gotten there yet, though I'm constantly exploring. Like James Patterson's turned a factory out where he's not writing 'em all himself. He's not sitting at a typewriter. He's found a way to write 'em without writing 'em. That sounds great to me. But the favorite moment of the book was my daughter's friend asked me about a chapter on something. They were asking me just about advice on something. I'm like, that's in the book. I wish my kids would've asked me that, but here, you know? And so it's been great fun. You know, it's not like, it's like, it is a, the first effort at it was horrendous. This I give about a B+, somewhere near. It's solid. It's the kind of book I like. Every chapter's 2 pages to 3 pages. It's easy to read. You could read it in a sitting. And it's the kind of thing that I can read. Like, I have a harder time today reading really long books, but so I enjoy it and I'm a constant reader or listener to books. And so, you know, it's more in the Ryan Holiday version of every chapter's a few pages.

Yeah, no, I love it. We'll put in the show notes how to get to the website and how to get to the book and obviously Amazon, things like that. I highly recommend it. I was telling you earlier, I wish I would've read it earlier, and I'm glad it's out there now. But I love the fact how actionable it is. So my quick summary was that there's like almost 60 actionable things that you can do. So it's super practical. It's not just theory. Theory's good, but I love— I need to be like, okay, I can do these 2 or 3 different things all around. And I like how you brought together building a business, but also managing the money. So, I've been pretty good on building business, building career, but not, you know, that's the part of the book that I, in particular, that I really appreciated was like how you should think about investing and things like that. But yeah, it's everything from talent management to resilience, adaptability, you know, kind of a second area. Third area is about strategy focus. And the fourth area is in financial planning. So, super practical. You talked about 3 keys. We only have time for like one deep question, deeper question into the book. You talk about, hey, 3 keys to judging leaders. Tell us about, can you expand on that a little bit?

Sure, sure. So you're forcing me to go back to my thoughts, some of the thoughts I think about all the time. So here's how we think about leaders. We think about leaders as really 3 or 4 things. One is how they do the results. You can't ignore the results when they're leading. So how are the results? You know, what's the returns? What are they doing? Whatever their mission is, how are they doing? What are the results? The second thing we think about is how have they built teams? How have they built the next generation of leaders? So one of the things I think about is I look at organizations that I have led. There are sort of multiple different thoughts on it, but one of the things I'm most proud of is the number of lawyers in the law firm that ended up eclipsing me in their career and becoming leaders in the firm.

Yeah.

And similarly at Becker's Healthcare, The number of people that have been with me for 20 years that now lead everything. And we talk about often the evolution of an entrepreneur. We could do that on a separate time, separate discussion, but it plays into that. How well have you developed other people and other leaders? So first thing is results when you're there. Second is how have you developed teams and leaders? And then the third thing we think about is how well does the organization do when you're gone? So if you're no longer the leader, and you've built such a soft organization that it falls apart when you're gone, then you've not really done a great job as a leader. If in contrast, you've built, I mean, a magnificent organization that the pieces are then in place, the teams are in place, the leaders are in place, and it thrives after you step back, then I think you've done a tremendous job as a leader. So we sort of view those 3 perspectives to view leaders.

Results.

How good have they built teams and other leaders? And third, how's the organization do when you step back? And I think those are 3 ways we judge leaders.

I love it. And see, that's why everyone should read the book because that's how concise it is and how practical it is. It's like, bam, bam, bam. It's from someone who has walked the talk and lived the life, Scott, that you have, and that these things have happened over the course of your career and continue to happen. This has been fabulous. Scott, we talked about so much from music of the '70s. We talked about life not being binary and no one goes unscathed, you know, that it's okay to be okay.

Tom Arquilla. Tom Arquilla is the executive leader that shared that thought with me probably 20 years ago. All right, Tom Arquilla, and he's still a leader in healthcare today.

All right, we give him that credit for sure. And then we talked a lot about your, your sort of humble beginnings. It's very cool, and thank you for being so authentic and vulnerable. And then your career and how it grew into what we know today as Becker's or Becker's Healthcare. And then we talked about Entrepreneur's Edge, went into it a little bit on the judging leaders part of it. What did we miss, or is there anything you want to double down on? I'll give you the last word.

Yeah, no, I don't think there's anything I want to double down, but we use that phrase in constantly trying to figure out what we're trying to do. You know, double down on something, pivot on something, or abandon something. And so we're constantly trying to figure out, like all of us are, life is not static. And so always kind of trying to figure out where's the next area of life to double down on. I mean, you've done a remarkable job doubling down on relationship, doubling down on business and speaking and staying connected to the world. You do a remarkable job of it. So we just love that and we watch you and we, as You know, the more I've gotten to know you over the years, the more that I love you and what you do. So, Ed, thank you for having me on today.

Well, Scott, thank you. You inspire the whole healthcare community. We learn so much from you. I really do. I'm not just blowing smoke. I think you know that about me. I see your stuff every day and I hit the links and it's, I get my summaries and then I take advantage of your conferences and all sorts of stuff. So thank you for being our guest and thank you everyone for listening. To Digital Voices.

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