The Power of Patient Voice (ft. Adam Cherrington)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation challenges and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now your host, Ed Marx.

Welcome to another edition of Digital Voices. Thank you for listening. I know you have choices and there's great podcasts out there. I listen to many myself. And you've chosen time with us. We're gonna make it worth your while because we have Adam Charrington. Adam, welcome to Digital Voices.

Hey, uh, it's so good to see you and be with you today. Thank you.

Uh, I'm so glad because we've been longtime friends and we're kindred spirits and we have a lot of core values and beliefs that we share in common, including the voice of the patient. And I love your tagline, you know, being a megaphone for patient voice. We're gonna talk about that, but you're also the Vice President of Digital Health for KLAS, K-L-A-S. How long have you been with Klass?

Going on 14 years now.

Dang.

It's been fast and long, but wonderful.

Did you have any kids before Klass?

I did. I did. Yeah. I had all my kids before I came here and now they're a lot older. And so, dang, we've grown up together here.

Yeah. That's cool. So tell us about your family. Like you're married, you have beautiful kids. I see them, you know, but tell us, tell the audience about your family.

Yeah, thank you. So, uh, I, I have the best friend in the world, Janet Charrington, my, my wife of 29 years. Um, just, just adore her. She's, she's the glue that holds everything together. And we have 4 kids and 1 bonus daughter who married my son. Um, and we have 2 grandkids, Ed. I don't know if I've told you that, but it's, it's the best. That's all we talk about. When can they come over and make a mess at our house? We love it.

Adam, you look like you're 40 years old and you're telling me you've been there for 29 years. So I'm doing some math here. It's like, it's not—

11. I was 11 years old. Okay.

No, no, it's not computing. But, you know, I jumped straight to, straight to family and things that we hold in common because you're, you're a great man and I, I really appreciate all that you do. But let me back up a little bit because all my listeners are dying. They're like, wait a second, you didn't ask the very most important question. That is, what songs are on Adam's playlist. So Adam, what songs do you like to listen to?

I love this question. Playlists are a love language at our house. We will do, let's make a Thanksgiving playlist. Let's make a Tuesday afternoon playlist. So, so the long tried and true, it's got to have Coldplay. It's got to have U2, Sting, listened to them for years and years. And, and here's one that I just discovered a couple of weeks ago. It's called Crowded Table. By the Highway Women. I can't recommend it enough. It's the concept of, I just want to have a crowded table at my house. I want, yeah, I think it came out of COVID that desire to be together. But wow, I just love that concept that a noisy, crowded table is a happy moment.

I like that. Yeah. I was reflecting on something similar recently because I was writing about our oldest daughter and she used to be that person who loved not only stray cats, but she also loved the strays at school. And these are people and that, you know, didn't come from homes where they had the same kind of love and affection that you might have at the Charrington's house or the Marx house. And so our table is always full, especially during holidays with all of our friends. And, and I miss, I miss those days for sure. What about life message and mantra? What are words that you live by?

You know, I want to share a scripture for that question. I'm going to talk a little bit about— a big part of my life is my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I serve there. It's been a major focus point for me. But there's a scripture I love in the Book of Mormon that I think is related to healthcare that I want to share. And it says, you will teach your children to walk in the ways of truth and soberness. You will teach them to love one another and to serve one another. And also ye yourselves will succor, S-U-C-C-O-R, those that stand in need of your succor. You will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need, and you will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain and turn him out to perish. I think of healthcare. I think of—

Health.

The word succor means to run to give aid.

too.

And aren't we in a wonderful industry where people think that way, behave that way? That scripture does not describe me. That describes what I aspire to do. And I really like that one.

Yeah, I love it. That's a good one. We do have a playlist coming together of everyone's life mantras and words that they live by, and we'll definitely add that one to it. I love it. And yeah, I love that word succor. So, That's pretty cool. Yeah. So you've already told us a little bit about you. Tell us, tell us more. Let's go a little deeper. Like, where were you even born?

So grew up in, in Taylorsville, Utah, outside of Salt Lake City. The oldest of 6 kids to Dale and Kay Charrington, wonderful parents. And I'm a 6th generation Latter-day Saint. It's deep in the bones of, of, of being part of the that church. Grew up active in sports, loved to swim. I played water polo. I thought I was going to be in the NBA and play basketball, but swimming and water polo were a better fit for me.

Yeah.

And from there, I was a missionary for my church. I lived in Santiago, Chile for 2 years.

Very cool.

And boy, that was an important part of my upbringing, really grounded me and Taught me just to learn from anybody. And, you know, obviously you're there with a purpose and to teach and to learn and help and serve. But wow, I just, I just got to really connect with another culture, living in the culture, learning Spanish and understanding that, boy, there's, there's good people all around. So that was a major part of my life.

Okay. Tell me when you get matched, right? Isn't there like a moment almost like with med schools, right? You're in med school. and you want to get matched to residency and there's match day. There's something similar, right, for you in the LDS, right, where you're going to find out you've chosen this life to serve and you're really laying it up to God, like, God, wherever the best match, I just give it to you. Where was Chile in your list? Because, I mean, you're still human. You still got to like, oh, I would love to go to, I don't know, name your place, Portugal. Where was Chile in that list? Like, you know, were you glad it was Spanish speaking? Like, tell me a little bit more so we all understand.

You know, it, uh, a match like within med school is a good comparison, only you don't even put down places you would prefer. It's truly, hey, are you willing to go? It's, it's optional. Uh, you, we, we have the option to go. So you submit an application. If everything looks good, health is good. it comes back and it could be anywhere.

Yeah.

It could be in another state in the United States. It could be across the world. It could be anywhere. So I had heard of Chile and I had spoken some Spanish in high school. It's very different when you have to depend on it day to day. But yeah, it was an amazing surprise and it's like, okay, here we go. I had probably 3 months to get ready. And boy, that first moment, that's one of the most unique, strange days of my life. When you're on a bus with somebody you just met who's now your companion, your kind of mentor, and you're going to a town you can't even remember what it's called on a bus 3 hours away. It's like, where am I? What am I doing? And you just go figure it out.

Yeah. Is that— is the mentor, the person has been there like 1 year already?

Usually they have some experience, so you're not going in cold turkey and here's what we do and here's where we're going and here's how you eat this unique thing we're about to consume or whatever.

That's cool. And did, did your Spanish, like, are you fluent now today, or at least right after that experience?

There's a difference from junior high Spanish to I am knocking on someone's door trying to communicate with them and understand them. So there was a learning curve that took several months. Luckily, you know, for me, Spanish is a language I still use today. I get to use it all the time. It's very, very helpful. And I would say I'm, I'm, I am fluent.

Yeah. That's great. Yeah. There's so many benefits.

Yeah.

We're going to do, someone actually had, it was a podcast. I don't know what order it'll be released, if it'll be before this podcast right here, but it was Justin Oppenheimer. He's the Executive Vice President of Hospital for Special Surgery. And he had said, Ed, you need to do sort of faith in the workplace. And I had already started that down a YouTube channel, have a couple people lined up. And the more I talk about it, the more I think we're going to do it because I think it's really informative, just the importance of faith in the workplace and however it manifests itself, you know?

Yeah.

Learned a lot about life and leadership, and I think it's going to naturally come out. throughout our discussion, Adam. So what's a moment in life that fundamentally changed your trajectory?

You know, I mentioned my mission already, so I'll give you another one. So about 12, 13 years ago, my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. You know, Ed, I know you've been through those journeys and I'm sure most of our listeners know somebody or gone through it themselves, but boy, that's really a moment where Where I embraced healthcare. I already worked at CLASS and I loved the mission and focus, but boy, when you go through that, patient engagement means something more when you're experiencing the benefit and the challenge of healthcare. She's doing great. She was diagnosed with stage 1 infiltrating ductal carcinoma. And for the next year, we went through a journey and treatments and We're very blessed that we have access to healthcare. Not everybody enjoys that. And so, but one reason it was such a pivotal moment, we got her results, I think it was December 21st, and it was about a 5-minute phone call. And you can imagine people are trying to take off time for the holidays and they said, okay, here's what you have. All I heard was carcinoma. And then they said, 2 days after Christmas, you have an appointment with a surgeon. Do you have any questions?

Geez.

And I don't fault them. I think they were trying to do whatever they could. There's not much information at that phase, but you're, you know, it's, your mind goes to the worst possible scenarios with lack of information. I even had to call them back. I said, you have to give me more. I need to know what else. And they said, That's all we know.

Dang.

And then, where I learned to love healthcare and the opportunities to improve it came from sitting down with a surgeon, Dr. Jennifer Tittensor. We are her biggest fans. A surgeon sat us down for a couple hours and just answered every tiny little question and just gave us so much hope.

Yeah.

You know, so, so that was a major part of my passion in healthcare. And, you know, I'll give you another example. Janet was given options for chemotherapy and the doctor said, hey, you can have 4 or 6 or 8 doses and you get to pick which one. And we were just shocked that it was up to us. And I'm happy to say, I believe healthcare has progressed quite a bit since then. But boy, that was, that was a moment that just stopped us in our tracks. And, but once we sat down with, with Dr. Tittensor and moved on, there was just hope. There was hope and we had a community that took care of us. And that's such a big part of my focus and passion in healthcare.

Yeah, no, it comes out strong and it makes sense why you're such a great advocate for others. So, and I'm glad Janet is Well today.

Thank you.

So Adam, let's, before we head back to class, I know that you started at Franklin Covey and there had to be some good training or something that you got there other than the fact that the company itself, because, you know, I've always been a big fan and followed Covey and learned a lot from his books and philosophies and stuff. And I, and I know it's a great organization. Tell us like one or two things that you learned there that were fundamental that maybe you use today.

Yeah, I really enjoyed my time there. I found a passion to go there and be a part of it just by reading The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. I was really impressed with that. And it's a local Utah company, so it was easy to find people that I knew that worked there. And I think what stuck with me is the idea of principles in business that, you know, things like trust, is that really a thing in business? Yeah, absolutely it is. And so is the lack thereof that can cause issues. So, you know, things like the law of the harvest and these ideas that, boy, not only in projects, but more importantly in people and in organizations, we can create and plant seeds that can grow and be fruitful later. The idea that you can't fake character. This is not something you just— You know, if you say the right words, then you have character. It's like, no, it's who you are. It's what you do. And so I was there a short time, but boy, it was a great foundation to learn from.

Yeah, I can imagine that they had good training and yeah, a very well-principled company. And then you've switched over into class. So what was the catalyst there?

Really had started working in healthcare. I was part of a clearinghouse prior to CLASS, and so was starting to get in the industry. Had a colleague from Franklin Covey that was already here, Jason Hess, over here at CLASS. You know Jason well, by the way. I just remembered you're friends with Jason. Called him up, said, what do you guys do? What is CLASS? And so that's how I found CLASS. But I would say the catalyst Years later, as I started covering patient engagement and the tools that patients need to be successful, I was at a conference and someone you know well, Adrienne Boise of Cleveland Clinic, she made a statement that really made time stand still for me. She said, it's an oxymoron to call it patient engagement and not involve the patient.

Yeah.

And at that moment, I knew you have to include the patient's perspective or missing a huge opportunity. Can you imagine Nike creating shoes without even testing them or trying them on people or Toyota creating cars without asking the consumer? But in healthcare, we do that all the time. We say, well, I'm a patient, so I know what they all want. And I feel that's improving, by the way. I feel like that's getting better, but— That was such a pivotal moment. And a lot of the research I lead now and efforts are to make sure that the patient must be included. They have to, we have to find a way to ask them, include them, and add their perspective. Yeah. So that, that, that's a major part of why I like to focus on the voice of the patient today.

Yeah. And I'm sure with walking the walk that you did together with Janet also provided more clarity and passion and energy around this whole area.

Yeah, absolutely.

What's a belief you once held tightly personally or professionally, but later changed your mind about?

You know, I think of the idea that the doctor always has the right answer. And I don't mean that with any Yeah. Level of disrespect. But, generations before, like, here's an example. If we go to an appointment with my father-in-law, he's turning 80 in the near future. Shout out to Jim Parker, my wonderful father-in-law. He will ask us to be quiet while the doctor explains things. And, that's not wrong at all, but his mentality is This is the source, and we will follow and listen. And I'm not suggesting we challenge everything. I'm suggesting we have access to more information. We have to own our own journey. I learned that through Janet's health journey as well. Tracking information, tracking medications, the family and the caregivers and the community and the church that you're part of. They're so influential in healing.

Yeah.

And I am grateful for wonderful clinicians that do so much. They have a hard job. Healthcare is not easy, but I also have learned, hey, they do their best to present their best options. We have resources to add to that. So I think that's the shift that I've seen. And I guess another Another option, or sorry, another thought is, as leaders in healthcare, we should guide others through their journeys.

Yeah.

There's people that struggle just to know basic processes of healthcare. And until the day comes when it's all as clean as a simple pizza order or Amazon order or whatever. I think we need to make sure that we're guiding our neighbors and friends and colleagues because it is complicated, right? That's the understatement of the year that healthcare is complicated. But that's another pivot that I've tried to learn and I'm still learning.

Yeah. Yeah. There's probably more to come, but yeah, those are some really good ones. Tell us about KLAS, K-L-A-S. Now, a lot of our listeners, of course, know KLAS, but we're getting a large listenership now from outside of healthcare or outside of healthcare tech. So for someone who's unsure what KLAS is, oh yeah, it's Adam guy's pretty cool, but I don't know the company he works at. What would you say?

KLAS is a lot like Consumer Reports for healthcare. We interview healthcare leaders that rate their experience with healthcare technology. And the reason we do that is to be able to share back to the healthcare community insights that can guide them through their decisions, through their expectations and their needs. It's truly a unique seat in healthcare. I might be on a call with a CIO of a large health system one minute and they're rating a few solutions or telling us, hey, here's how I see AI in healthcare today. And then literally seconds later, I'm talking to the CEO of a vendor organization that's trying to create the product to meet those needs. And so, boy, we really have this opportunity to help connect the dots. Ed, you know, you've been on our advisory board. I think you've known Class longer than I have, but we are mission-based and really seek to improve healthcare organizations.

Yeah.

And it's just a really enjoyable process to find out the needs of an organization and try to meet those needs. This morning I was on a call with the chief operating officer of a fairly large health system, and they were guiding me through their thought process. They're looking at, they're using one vendor, considering another. And it's not our role to say, well, this is the one you should buy. It's, we just say, here's the data. Here's the data related to those, and may it guide and influence your decision appropriately. So, CLASS has been around 29 years, almost 30, and we seek to guide any organization and help them wherever we can.

Yeah, no, CLASS has been very instrumental for me as a longtime CIO. We always reference CLASS before we made any decisions, you know, purchasing decision or change or things like that. And we always included them when we did our, you know, analysis and business case. We always had a slide, you know, what does CLASS inform us about? Because it really was truly that independent voice. So I've always appreciated what CLASS does. And you're just first-class people. I didn't mean to do that, but yeah, it naturally came out. Out of the CLASS part. So it really is a pretty nifty organization. So you've been there now many years. What are some of the most surprising findings you found? So maybe you were doing an analysis on patient voice or some other area, but was there any time like you were working on a project or maybe it was one of your colleagues and it's like, wow, that's surprising.

You know, one that comes to mind is we have done several projects where we interview patients and get their perspective. We don't have them rate products, but just to get their take on their experience and especially related to technology. And in these projects, we'll ask for demographics as it's always confidential, of And we interviewed patients from a health system and we started to look at responses. And interestingly enough, lower income, lower educated patients were rating the technology higher. And they were saying, boy, this is fantastic. It's meeting our needs and it's helping. And I might not have guessed that if I had to predict, I might've thought differently. And so it proves a few things that there are opportunities to serve all patients of any walk of life. But more importantly, we can't assume we know what's going on there. We have to ask the questions. We have to include and we have to seek out those perspectives. And I think it always goes back to, yes, at some level, all of us are patients, but we are not the same patient.

Right.

Yeah. What Ed prefers and needs is different than what I prefer and need, perhaps. So that's one. We're just finishing up a project right now. patient perspectives on AI, which is a lot of fun.

Yeah.

This boy, we're talking about AI every minute in healthcare right now. And we thought, wouldn't it be interesting to ask patients? And they tend to have some hesitancy on using AI for clinical diagnosis, but they have a lot of interest in some of the tactical digital front door tools. Just help me reschedule my appointment, help me find a location, help me answer a question. So that's been a lot of fun. And I'll add one more, you know, speaking of AI, as we go out and ask the market and get their take on things, we've learned that not everybody's using AI yet. Do we think it's coming? Absolutely. It is here. It is being used. But as recently as beginning of this year, Q1, we published a report 56% of health systems weren't even doing anything with AI yet. And so I think we can all take a deep breath and know, okay, let's, let's get some principles in place. Let's get some governance in place. We're not buying hammers to go hit something. We're still building things and AI is one of the hammers perhaps.

Yeah, no, I like that. I appreciate it. We'll put information about how to get ahold of you and class in our show notes. I wanna switch to leadership cuz, you know, Adam, you're a great, not just great person working for a great company, doing great things, great family, but you're also a great leader. Was there a moment where vulnerability became your greatest strength?

Boy, this is a, a really thoughtful question. And, you know, this says so much about you, Ed, that you, you asked that question. I really respect it. Um, I, I guess at a high level, I would say, you know, you're, you're never really alone. There, there are people around to support. And if we assume we're the only one that knows, we're probably missing an opportunity to grow. We're missing an opportunity to learn from others and really make a proper influence wherever we can. I can think of times where I have thought, okay, now that I can serve and help colleagues and teammates, I know how to do their job. So let me project my perspective on them. When, when that's really not the best way. It's, that's not what empowerment is. It's, oh, I, I'm excited because I know how to do this. I'm comfortable with what I'm asking you to do. It's more about, hey, here's the vision and how can I support you? And I'm here for suggestions and guidance. And, you know, I'm, I'm still trying to figure out this thing called servant leadership. And, but I love that concept that there's, there's opportunities to, to teach by By empowering and really allowing people to learn, allow them to figure it out too.

Yeah, that's good stuff. Where do you go or what do you do when you feel creativity drained? Obviously in your position, you know, requires a lot of creativity thinking, quote unquote, outside the box. But, you know, there's probably times when you're like, oh, run out of energy or whatever. Where, what do you do?

You know, related to the idea that you've got to go to the consumer. If the creativity's not there, what's the problem you're trying to solve and who, Who is the key stakeholder or one of the key stakeholders? So if you start there and go and learn the desired outcomes, what are the goals they're trying to solve? I think that creates alignment. I think that creates opportunities to truly, truly get back on track, if you will, to get new ideas. I think that's what creativity is, is new ideas. And back to your previous question, we We can't assume we have all the answers. There's so many unique things you learn just by asking the question.

Yeah, true that. Do you define success differently today than earlier in your career? And if so, what caused that shift?

I think that maybe early on you think, okay, once I achieve this certain title, Then I've made it, or this is the ultimate goal. I think having a title and having influence are not always the same thing. And maybe what caused that is just, you know, getting the goal of improving healthcare deep, deep in my soul of this. This is an industry that impacts all of us. We all have to go through these, these journeys. And I think of, I think of Janet's. Healthcare journey again, I mentioned that we have to have that service mentality in healthcare. And it's, it's about how can I help others around? And I'm going to embarrass you for a second, Ed. I've seen you do this. I remember a conference you and I were at and you just took time to, to get to know an individual. I don't think they were even part of the conference. They were passing through. And I was so impressed how you just focused on that one person. And gave them genuine time. And anyway, that's something I admire about you, that you have that servant's heart and you think that way.

Well, thank you. And like you, you know, whatever goodness is all a reflection, I hope, of the God that we serve. So Adam, I wish we had more time. We talked about a lot of stuff all the way from your playlist. And while it was a song, but the concept of the crowded table, Awesome. We should all seek to have that in our lives because we can, we all, people are listening, the majority have the ability, the resource, and the ability to love on people. And that's what people need and invite people over. We talked a lot about your life message and mantra out of the Book of Mormon. Very profound. We talked about your life, 6th generation LDS, oldest of 6. Just great parenting, great life, your missions work and how it impacted you. Uh, your career starting with FranklinCovey, touched on some other aspects, but mostly, uh, along the lines of CLASS. We talked about how what happened with your wife Janet and her process with cancer, how it really influenced you and, and helped you become that megaphone for patient experience, the patient's voice at CLASS. We talked a lot about leadership and just, you gave us a lot of different insights related to, uh, vulnerability and creativity and Title versus influence in terms of career success. What did I miss? Or is there anything you want to double down on? I'll give you the last word.

You know, I'll, I'll just mention, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you. I'm part of a 3-man presidency that leads a local church congregation of about 3,000 people. And the reason I bring it up is I just had to give a talk or a sermon about a week ago. And I think it ties to healthcare. And I talked about when When Jesus was headed to the house of Jairus to go heal his daughter.

Yeah.

And the people just thronged him. It says they came and they slowed him down, and a woman that had an issue of blood touched the hem of his garment and she was healed. And what I was so impressed with about that is he slowed down to take time for the one. And I think that's a message in healthcare. We are, we are in a busy, complicated, confusing industry. And can we slow down for the one? And it's, it's easy to say, hard to do. Something I seek to aspire to, but my goodness, what, what an opportunity. I love healthcare. I love the abundance in healthcare. I love that. Yes, there's competition like in any business. However, there, there is a willingness to share insights and help each other and— That, that's my favorite thing. You can see collaboration at any level. So I guess that's what I would end with, that in our busy world, can we slow down and focus on the one?

Love it. Adam Charrington, thank you for being a guest on Digital Voices.

Thanks, Ed. Subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review. And most importantly, thanks again for listening.