Work-Life Balance, Reality or Utopia? (ft. Fatima Paruk, MD & Daniel Carnegie, MD)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marx. Really excited about this new topic that we're tackling, and it's really important. We should have tackled it earlier in the Digital Voices series, on digital, but it's about work-life balance. And I've got 2 guests with us today that they're a married couple, but they have their individual careers as well. And the family, you'll hear more about that and how do they do it. And it's a really critical topic. And Megan, DJ Megan, you know, I know you're Gen Y. Share with us about really quick your family and is work-life balance, is it reality or utopia?

Yeah, definitely. So I work from home, which is fantastic, but I do have a 3-and-a-half-year-old son who, when he's at home, you know, when he's homesick or he's not at daycare, it makes it a bit challenging. He doesn't really understand, you know, why I can't just stop and play with him. So I would say for me, it's really a work in progress. It's a fine line between work-life integration and work-life balance. And I feel like I kind of teeter between the two. And so knowing, you know, when to really say, hey guys, I need to take some personal time away from work, is something that I'm trying to get better at because it's important.

Yeah, that's why we want to tackle this topic. And I met our guests. They're, as I mentioned, a married couple, both physicians. And I met them a few years ago when I served in New York City. They both came out of Clinovations, as I did, which then became the advisory board and so forth. And they're just awesome people. And so I want to introduce them. So the first is Fatima Parikh, Dr. Fatima Parikh, and her husband, Dr. Daniel Carnegie. Welcome to Digital Voices.

Thanks, Ed, for having us.

Thank you so much.

So the first thing we always ask everyone, no matter what the topic, is songs on your playlist. So maybe each of you can share kind of like if we looked at your playlist right now, what are you listening to?

This one's easy. I'll go first. I just defer to Daniel on everything playlist, so we'll let Daniel handle that one.

Yeah, I would be the official DJ of the house. I can tell you pre-baby is a lot different than post-baby. Post-baby, 3 of the top hits on the charts would be Always Be My Baby, Mariah Carey, Girls Like You, Maroon 5, and when she's getting a little bit fussy, Lovely Day by Bill Withers. That seems to calm her down a little bit.

I think you've forgotten Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and the ABC song. Oh yes, 123.

That's right. Our playlists do change for sure when we have kids. What about life message or mantra? Like, is there A particular message that— and it could be as a couple or individual. Is there something that sort of is your inspiration?

I can go first. I can share a little bit more about my individual life message and mantra. For me, it's about making the biggest difference that I possibly can in this world, figuring out how to impact as many lives as possible. And so when I think just even on my professional career pathway, I have a clinical background. At some point, I went into public health. And I realized that one of the ways I could truly make the biggest difference in the world is actually through tech. And so I went into health tech for that reason, because it's ultimately the practice of public health, but technology plays such a huge role in that and being able to reach millions and millions of lives across the world.

Love it.

Daniel.

Yep. So, Ed, you and I have talked about this in the past, but I'm a people person. And I believe that for a life mantra, every interaction that you have with somebody, you should leave that person in a better disposition than when you first came across them. I think that, you know, we don't take enough time to stop and appreciate our relationships or our interactions, but just making sure that you come across as relatable and approachable and take time to really be a positive impact in somebody's life, I think is really important for me.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. And now everyone can tell why I love you both and why I love to hang out with you all. So tell us your story. So, Daniel, we can start with you, just your story, personal and professional, you know, sort of your career. And then definitely one of you tackle how you both met.

Sure. So, um, my personal story, I'm a middle child of immigrants. I have an older brother, younger sister. Parents are Jamaican. I was born in New York. And so education was very important growing up. There was 3 options of what I could be. It was either a doctor, a doctor, or a doctor. And so that was, um, a path that was essentially chosen for me in that education was important and you needed a professional degree at some point. And so, you know, I went to University of Georgia, big Bulldogs fan, then took a year deferment from med school to do some time on Wall Street. I'm a numberphile. I like dealing in numbers and I developed a very big interest in business. my time in Wall Street. Then I went into med school at Howard University, proud alum of Howard University. Then went into general surgery residency at Howard as well. Took some research years at Johns Hopkins, and that's when I discovered Dr. Fatima Paroo. And I did bench research, surgical oncology research there, and She will probably take credit for this, but she encouraged me to do a dual MPH/MBA. And at that time, I was doing research, my master's. I was also taking surgical call at night. So it was quite busy, but some of the best times of my life were spent in Baltimore. And that's where we discovered Clinovations. I think Fatima will tell this story, but it was a package deal. Take both of us or none of us. And that's where my journey started for consulting.

Awesome.

Yeah. Fatima?

Well, I'll tell you a little bit about myself. I was actually born in South Africa, raised in Western New York, just south of Buffalo in a very small town, and then pretty much subsequently lived all over the world and came back to the US for residency. So I started out my career in general surgery on the clinical side. At some point I realized I wanted to make, again, that bigger difference in the world and I went into public health. And following that, I had to stitch it all up. And so I stuck around after doing my MPH at Hopkins to do a fellowship there, at which time they sent me off to Kenya to do a lot of really interesting work on injury surveillance in low and middle income countries. And ultimately, you know, from that work, I mean, I think one, I learned so much about myself because I found my personal and professional niche in a lot of ways, right? Again, figuring out that it was about making that impact to as many lives as I possibly can. But figuring out that technology and data and information systems all had this key role in ultimately developing public policy, right? And figuring out how to get emergency care to 40 million Kenyans today. So that was, you know, the professional sort of journey. Finishing my fellowship, I ended up taking a pretty cool gig at Allscripts, where I was their chief medical officer for analytics, ran research and development around AI and machine learning. I probably was one of the first folks to recruit data scientists into healthcare, train them on large-scale EHR data, and did some really amazing outcomes work with just a team of absolute rock stars. Went on and moved to Microsoft for a while, served as their chief medical information officer, and then went into McKinsey for a little bit to broaden my horizons and currently am now at Salesforce. And a large reason for that was, one, I had to get back to my passion in tech. But secondly, I think, again, we're going to talk a little bit more about the personal journey here, but having a baby who is now 10 months old really, really played into my decision to be back in tech at a company that would facilitate and help me be successful as a mom and as a new mom.

Yeah. So awesome. So, Fatima, how long have you been married? Tell us about your baby. So 10 months old. And yeah, so give us that sort of background.

Yeah. Well, Daniel and I got married in 2016. So we were both sort of fresh out of our academic training environments. And, you know, we got married and for both of us, I think we were both very focused on our careers. We both were in either consulting or industry jobs that were very, very busy and we both Certainly, we're, you know, there's, I think there's 2 types of physicians that go into tech, right? There's the ones that are sort of retired and at the end of their career, and, you know, they're going into technology for reasons because they don't want to be clinical anymore. And then there's our generation, which is, you know, sort of that one that's in this place where we've still got something to prove, and we are working really hard. to again, make sure that we are making that bigger difference in the world through tech and changing what the future of healthcare looks like. And Daniel and I both fell into that pile. And so we both did a lot of traveling, you know, throughout our early years of our marriage. It wouldn't be uncommon for us to basically meet in different cities for the weekend rather than going home because we were both on the road so much. So that's just what life looked like. And then COVID hit, right? And so both of us were no longer traveling and we had to So we used to jokingly say that we had never spent this much time together or this much time in our own home, you know, up until COVID hit. And so again, you realize that maybe there's, you know, something else to life. And we were able to realize that we actually really like spending time with one another. So I think that's, you know, that's another very interesting thing that came out of COVID in addition to our baby. And so we ended up having a COVID baby. She's now, you know, 10 months old and she has changed our lives. lives in ways that we never thought possible. Um, you know, I think again, we both never intended to wait until we were in our 40s to start our family, but it is what it is. And here we are and we're rolling with it.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. And she's a beautiful little girl. I've had the opportunity to meet her a couple of times and that's great. So let's start off with sort of this provocative short answer to this question, and then we're going to get into some specifics. So work-life balance, is it reality or utopia for either of you?

So I'll start. I'll say it's reality, but you really have to make hard decisions and know what your priorities are.

I don't think there's— I disagree a little bit, actually. I think it's work-life integration, and you've just got to figure out how to roll with it and make it work. I think when I used to think about Or be away from my job? It actually gives me a little bit of anxiety at times. So again, I don't have this all figured out. But I think it's— for me, it's shifted now to saying, okay, where can I grab a few minutes to be okay? You know, is it just a little bit of rest that I need, whether it's physical rest or, you know, no screen time rest, or figuring out how to just be present for a few minutes when I'm having a conversation with somebody and ignoring my phone? Those are the little changes I think I've been able to make. But I certainly don't think I have it all figured out. I think that's a great point. I don't think that there's this concept of work-life balance for me. Again, it's, it's just integration and figuring out how to make it all work.

Yeah, I'm with you there. I'm, I'm all about the integration part. It's in this day and age with all the tech, it's really hard to have this hard line between work and the rest of your life. It's, it's really, uh, for me and all, it sounds like for y'all, it's, uh, really about integration. So let's talk about some practical things. You already mentioned a couple, but what, what practices are you doing now? And I know it's a work in progress. No one's got it completely figured out. And as you're, Daughter grows and your family grows, there'll be other changes. But what practices do you have now that sort of help with that? You mentioned a couple already, Fatima, but are there any others that our listeners might want to know about?

Well, for me, I think it's building upon a really solid foundation. I'm damn lucky to have Daniel in my life, and I know that I've got a partner who will bob and weave with me. And there are different times in our careers where each one of our careers have required you know, that, that little bit more. And I think it's having a partner who understands when to give, right? Um, to be able to, to understand that, that we're a freaking team. And if one of us is successful, we're both successful. So now that, you know, that, that really has, has been the rock, I think, which we both defer to, right, is that foundation. The other part of it is figuring out how to outsource as much as possible, right? There are tasks where we just don't have the time to do anymore. I think when we bought our condo, right, we had a ton of work that just had to be done on a day-to-day basis, right? You know, there was renovations and so on. And I think just we would be traveling during the week and then we'd come back and, you know, on the weekends we'd be trying to put together a kitchen. That didn't work out very well in the long run. And Daniel will have his take on that. But I think, you know, We've definitely figured out to outsource whatever we can in order to make more time for each other and for the fun stuff.

Yeah. Daniel, anything to add?

Yeah. I think Fatima knows I harp on communication, making sure that we are always in communication, always on the same page. And when we can't be, instantly, as soon as possible, catching up and making sure that we know what's going on in each other's lives and what to expect. I think it's very important in any relationship. The second part is personal, taking care of yourself. I joined a gym about a year and a half ago when I tore my meniscus, and I go to the gym 3 times a week. And I know that you stay healthy and you're a runner and do all sorts of things to take care of yourself as well. I think it's hard to be able to take care of a family or others if you're not taking care of yourself. And making it a priority. So, I would say those are things that work for me.

Yeah. No, this is great. I mean, if I just sum it up because this is real stuff that people can add to their life is, yeah, outsource whatever you can, have a strong foundation in your partner. Sometimes you make sacrifices for one another. Like my wife, Simran, just got her doctorate. So, the last couple of years were all about her education, which is cool. Strong communication, Take care of yourself, eat right, exercise, those sort of things. What about employers? So, have you ever needed to approach an employer on work-life integration and that they were accommodating with?

Yeah, I can start with that. Oh, yeah. So, this one was really personal. I have a fantastic job and folks in my life at Optum. And, you know, just having a baby, it was very difficult. We had a difficult time finding childcare, and I let those above me know that I was struggling and I had to take some time away. And, you know, they said, no problem. As busy as we are, we were able to adjust very quickly. And I took some— about a month of FMLA to take care of my family, and they were very understanding and obviously very welcoming me back into the job force. when that time was up. So, uh, definitely had to approach them, and, um, very understanding from their part.

Yeah, that's very cool. Fatima?

Like, I'm, um, I'm incredibly fortunate. So I, you know, I, I've spoken a little bit about the fact that I work for Salesforce. I serve as their Chief Health Officer and Senior Vice President, um, for Health and Life Sciences. And I'm, I'm damn lucky to report to a manager. I report to LaShonda Anderson-Williams, who's our, um, Chief Revenue Officer for Health and Life Sciences. And I got a manager who gets this. My, you know, my non-negotiable when I, when I took the job at Salesforce is despite all the travel is that I get to put my baby to bed, that I'm going to try my damnedest to get to a year as it relates to breastfeeding and being present and being there with my child. And so far, again, this is by no means traditional, but We figured out how to make it work. My child has had to travel with me a fair amount to meet the needs of different conferences and client engagements. But, you know, I'm also fortunate enough to have a husband that's flexible, a mother that's super involved as well. And, you know, if I need to travel, somebody will go with me and watch this baby so that I can, you know, be around and be present for her at night. And that's, that's been absolutely huge. There is no way I would have been able to make this work If I did not have a leadership structure and a corporate structure that was understanding enough to, to, to just make this, this an option for me. So it's pretty amazing.

That is amazing. That's awesome for both of you to have organizations like that. So I recently became a CEO myself of Divergent. Very exciting. And we have a fair amount of— thank you— fair amount of caregivers within, we call them call ourselves divergers. So if you were CEO of a company, what, what would you do to help with work-life integration, especially for, uh, you know, a situation like yourselves, like starting a family? So what should I be thinking about as a CEO?

Daniel, would you like to take that one first, or shall I jump in?

Sure, sure, sure. So I think most importantly, um, having Regular check-ins where you say, hey, what do you need? What needs are not being met? Again, I go back onto communication. I've had fantastic people in my life at Optum who always check on me, make sure that my needs are being met. I would certainly echo that sentiment. Make sure that they don't feel ostracized or alone on an island. Regular check-ins, make sure their needs are being met, and the ability to be flexible because we know that, you know, you have a schedule and then there's the life schedule that comes at you and you kind of have to pivot very quickly. So that's what I would do as a CEO.

Yeah, I think, I think we're at a very interesting time where employers have an opportunity to put the needs of people first. We are in a fairly, very, very highly competitive job market right now. As you know, I'm sure you're having a tough time finding talent and benefits packages are actively changing from having ping pong tables and buffets phase within the office to creating this new focus on safe workspaces, right? You know, creating access to mental health services. People are incredibly burnt out right now and in need of a number of different types of resources to meet their needs on a day-to-day basis. And I think acknowledging that and making sure we do a great job of providing access to these types of services and environments is going to go a very long way. I think there's one other huge issue, right? And Daniel kind of alluded to this from talking about his personal childcare story. We had a very tough time finding childcare during COVID It's basically nonexistent. The waitlist on finding organized daycares has been— I mean, I called a couple of places and they said, yeah, right now our waitlist is 6 to 12 months. And I'm like, guys, I got a meeting tomorrow. This is not going to work. Right. So really, if employers can do more in creating access to affordable childcare that is reliable, And safe. I think that will go a heck of a long way. I mean, you know, we're all struggling through it. There are certainly, you know, calls where my daughter has Zoom bombed. So there is a little bit more acceptance, but the reality is when I need to focus on a client and I need to focus on what I'm doing, I do need a safe place to have my child. And there has been just this dearth of places to send our children in the wake of COVID Yeah, those are all great suggestions.

I took notes on that. Thankfully, at Divergent, we're very, very progressive, and we have a lot of younger people and a lot of people starting families like Megan. And so we do a lot of those things, but I'm going to double-check. But just good advice for any one of our listeners and for your companies that you serve with. And I think, I mean, those things are just right on and really resonate. So there's, there's probably others out there listening that are looking to start a family. Maybe they haven't started yet, or maybe they have, and they're, they're gonna— they're trying to, you know, catch up on different things that maybe they didn't, uh, take advantage of when they first started having a family. So what advice would you have for others, assuming they haven't started their family yet? But like I said, it'll work— this, uh, I'm sure whatever wisdom you share will work for other people who already started. But if they're just looking to start a family, And it could be a nontraditional family as well and all that kind of— we're open-minded to all that. What advice would you give?

I mean, one, there's like, don't wait. There's actually no good time. You will figure this out. And if you do have a desire to have children earlier in your career, I feel like I made the mistake of waiting specifically because I thought I had to get to somewhere before I had children. But I realized that there are a number of people who have been unbelievably successful who have done this earlier in their careers and still been unbelievably successful. I think, again, it just, you know, you kind of have to figure out where you are in life and you'll roll with it. But I do think that there's no perfect recipe or perfect way to do this. You just have to jump in and roll with it.

That's good. Daniel, anything?

Yeah, I can— a personal account, Ed. I come from the school of you do as much as you can and you're always trying to Achieve and just be as much as you can present at work. And I very naively thought that I could continue my remote work after our baby was born. And that took me to the hospital with some palpitations, heart palpitations. And so what I would say is make time Uh, for your family. Take the time, uh, to be with your family 100%. Take the time off, take whatever time you need, uh, to be with your family or whatever you deem as a priority, um, because you're just going to give less than 100% to either entity that you try to multitask with. Um, that's very, very important. Um, and, uh, if, if you find that the entity that you're working for does not allow for the time that you need, maybe you need to think about making a change. And that's a very important principle of mine is you really have to be in an area that allows for you to make your priorities priority. And for me, my family is priority. And thankfully, again, I go back to Optum being very understanding when I had my baby, giving me the time that I needed. And then some to take care of my family and be here for my family.

Yeah, no, you both bring up really great advice and you're absolutely right, Daniel. If your employer doesn't allow for the sort of lifestyle that is important to you, you need to just jettison that employer if you can't make changes within it. So that's really good because I think sometimes people don't make that move and who suffers is themselves and their family. So that's good stuff. Any go-to resources or books or podcasts that you listen to to help as you raise your family on this topic? Anything that you find helpful that might be helpful to others?

I mean, for me, it's been the value of my network. It has absolutely been the value of the network. People who I've known for many years who I didn't necessarily know had gone through a lot of the challenges that I'm having had so much advice to offer on how to navigate very difficult situations. And I never thought to actually call on them. But, you know, the fact that they were in my network, they actually, you know, came forth and were willing to help me. And I've been incredibly, incredibly grateful for that.

Yeah, I read all the baby books and everything online, and there's nothing that beats just experience. However, there was this one book, and it's escaping me, and I regret that, but it's basically treating your baby like a new car. It's The Owner's Manual for a Baby. And I found that book very helpful. I think in systems and steps 1 through 3, and that book is very creative in how it treats the new baby as like a new car. It's very phenomenal. The Owner's Manual, I think, of a Baby or something like that. Very good book.

Daniel, you already mentioned one thing, like what you would have done differently Is there anything else from either of you, Daniel or Fatima, like one thing you would have done differently? Like, so if you have another baby, you know, that you'll sort of make this adjustment?

I mean, nothing different. I think that, you know, there's something to be said about starting earlier. You know, these 40-year-old bones work differently than 30-year-old bones. And, you know, everybody says, you know, you want to do it at the right time. There is no such thing as the right time. I think in retrospect, starting a family earlier might have impacted our career a little differently. However, you're just— I think it's easier to deal with the catastrophic change. I shouldn't say catastrophic, excuse me. The huge impact that having a baby has on your life, your sleep, your hygiene. It's just easier to take the impact when you're younger.

All right. Well, hey, this has been fascinating and it's just full of these awesome nuggets of wisdom. I know it's gonna be helpful to so many people and not just from family perspective, but even an individual perspective. When we talk about the work-life integration, we talked a lot about different topics. Is there something I missed or anything that either one of you wanna sort of double down on?

Sure. You know, currently I'm, Yeah, I'm currently recovering from COVID and we, if we had to live, uh, rely on a lot of, uh, apps and technology, uh, in raising our child and having to, you know, use WhatsApp or FaceTime to kind of keep up with the baby while I'm isolating has been, uh, critical, critical, critical. Um, Fatima, what about you?

Yeah, I think again, it's, it's figuring out how to leverage all the resources that you got. Because nobody can go at this alone. You're going to need a team and you're going to need all the help you can get. And the more you just embrace that and take it in stride, I think the easier it gets.

Yeah. You both are, I mean, just fascinating individuals listening to your background and the different experiences you had. And you look, the people can't see you like we can see each other when we record the podcast, but you look like you're in your 20s. So when you say that you're in your 40s, it's hard for me to believe, but You've had this amazing career already, and you're continuing on this amazing trajectory, both of you. And the fact that you speak so lovingly and happily about your family and how you do things and very intentional is really inspirational. You're just really good people, good friends. I'm so glad that you're in my life. But seriously, the wisdom that you all have shared is going to help so many people. So I really appreciate you both taking the time. out of your, your busy time, and you, Daniel, out of quarantine and, uh, and being on, being on Digital Voices. So thank you so much.

Yeah, the feeling is definitely mutual.

And thank you so much, Ed. And, and thank you so much to Ed and Simran, actually, um, as well. Give her the, the shout out as well, because again, without, without you both in my network, I don't know where we would be as well. So thank you so much for, for being part of our crew and our support group.

Can't wait to see you all again. And thank you everyone, uh, for being on our podcast, and we will talk to you again in a week. Thank you for listening to Digital Voices Podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review. And most importantly, thanks again for listening.