Innovations In Leadership - Ejieme Eromosele - Addressing the Last 3 Years as a Leader

Welcome to Innovations in Leadership, a Success League radio production. This is a podcast focused on customer success and the leaders who are designing and implementing best practices in our field. This podcast is brought to you by the Success League, a consulting and training firm focused on developing customer success programs that drive revenue. My name is Kristen Hayer, and I'm the host of Innovations in Leadership and the founder and CEO of the Success League. And joining me today is Ejieme Eromosele, who is the VP of Customer Success and Account Management at Qwik. And she's also the founder of Success in Black and also one of our advisory board members at the Success League. So we're going to be talking about the impact of the pandemic in the past several years on work and management and covering topics like changes that have come up from remote work, ways that we need to engage with our teams differently, and ways to speak up for change. So, Ejieme, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks so much, Kristen. Really excited to be here and to talk about today's topics.

Before we get started, tell us a little bit about how you made your way into the field of customer success.

Like a lot of people I've spoken to in terms of their journey into customer success, was sort of already doing a flavor of customer success before actually doing what we today call customer success. And so I sort of stumbled into it. I was a career management consultant, spent almost a decade doing management consulting. And so much of what management consulting is, you know, was in the vein of customer success. A lot of what we did was a deep focus on, you know, what value we're driving for that customer. What are the outcomes that we can try to deliver for them? A lot of relationship management, a lot of strategic advisory and being that kind of trusted advisor and guide. So much of that is obviously, as you know, instrumental to what we do in customer success. I spent a few years doing that and traveling and doing all of that. Management consulting was such a great training ground just in general, but obviously for customer success. After I was done with the travel life and the consulting life, I led customer experience at the New York Times for a few years, and that was really about helping the Times transition to a subscriber-first mentality and way of working. A lot of the New York Times's revenue had been advertising-based. And so they knew they needed to pivot to individual subscribers supporting the journalism and supporting their work. So I was part of a small group that was kind of brought in during that period of transition, had a bunch of fun and really kind of learned about subscription businesses. And that kind of piqued my interest into moving into SaaS and doing tech. And when I was looking at the different roles and the different opportunities, customer success really just, it was like an aha moment of like, this is the perfect blend of what I'd been doing consulting and what I wanted to continue to do in terms of helping businesses achieve the best outcomes. So that was my transition into customer success.

I'd love to also hear more about Kwik, but also about Success in Black, which is an organization that you've set up for our field.

Yep, for sure. So Kwik is a conversational messaging and AI platform that helps brands and enterprise brands specifically meet their customers where they are. And that is increasingly on messaging apps like Facebook Messenger, Instagram, and even new channels like SMS and Apple Business Chat, Google Business Messaging. A lot of the big channels of communication are opening up that method for brands and companies to communicate with consumers. So we build tech and AI in around those interactions. So I lead the customer success and account management teams. Obviously customer success, we're really focused on adoption, education, retention, and advocacy of our customer base. And then my account managers are really more focused on our commercial activity. So how are we making sure that we're completing, helping our customers renew and expand with us as well? And my passion project is Success in Black. So I started this a little over a year ago with the intention of having a platform to advance diversity, equity, and inclusion in customer success. Our first focus area is really in elevating Black professionals in customer success by providing powerful resources to help them advance their careers in this very interesting and dynamic field that we're in. I'm a big believer that customer success can help tech in general be more diverse and inclusive and equitable. It's a great gateway drug into tech, a positive gateway drug, and we're really, really excited to create the platform for that type of change.

Yeah, I love it. And I feel like there are so many intersections there with other groups that can also enter into tech. You know, we are already fairly gender diverse, I feel like, as a field compared to many other fields. We studied this back in 2019 and we found that there's actually about 51% women in our field at the front, at the front lines. I think we still have some work to do in management, you know, at least we're starting there. And so I think this is a really exciting exciting way to drive diversity and inclusion in our field. So congratulations for starting that. I think that's fantastic. Thank you.

Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that statistic and I think, yes, across the board, generally speaking, customer success is pretty gender balanced. Not a ton of stats on other diversity dimensions, but I did see, you know, a kind of a 1 to 3.5% kind of coverage or, you know, sort of the positions held by Black professionals in customer success is about a 1 to 3.5% rate. And we're also seeing some differences in kind of the wage gap in Black professionals versus their white and Asian counterparts, generally around kind of $10,000 to even upwards of $20,000 differences in compensation. So yeah, these are kind of, you know, things that I want to be able to dig in more, you know, how Black professionals get into CS, help us get paid more equitably, and help us get into leadership positions as well.

Yeah, I think all of those are really important things. I think pay equity is so critical and that leads to all of the other things. I mean, that's part of how we make management more diverse as well. When we were prepping for this episode, you and I hit on a lot of different topics and I feel like I almost wish we had just taped. We should have just recorded that session because they're all related to the changes that you and I have seen over the past several years in terms of both our work and our personal lives. And we've had impacts ourselves, and we've seen the impacts of this period of time on our team members. Let's pretend that somebody is listening to this in 10 years from now. Can you describe the situations that all of us have faced over the past 3 years that you think have had a significant impact on the way we work and live?

The past kind of 2 to 3 years have been a lot. You know, obviously there was, you know, the pandemic, the shift to work from home, the great reshuffling or great resignation, whatever lens you want to view that through that happened. But then there were also things happening outside of the work sphere that, you know, really interrupted how we think about work and how we show up to work. So, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement, you know, the Stop Asian Hate movement, the war in Ukraine, mass shootings going on here in the US, political division and extremism happening not only in the US, but, you know, across other nations as well. You know, I think the climate disaster that we're probably on the precipice of, you know, like I could go on and on and on. And so I think that there's a lot of just things happening in the world around us and that are happening within us. And as people leaders, we have to acknowledge that people can't separate the work life and the personal life anymore, that what happens in our lives affects how we show up at work. There's been, I think, several dynamics that have been happening. And the way that I would describe the past 2 to 3 years is that there's been a lot going on. And I think there's even this emerging trend I've been reading about, just kind of like the emergence of Gen Z in the workforce. And, you know, Gen Z right now, they're kind of, I think, 10 to 25 25 years old, but at 25 years old, you know, I have Gen Z at my company and on my team. And they're reporting that they're feeling— I was reading, I think it was a McKinsey report that just came out that they're almost twice as likely to feel emotionally distressed as millennials and as Gen Xers. So, and if you think about, again, the conditions in which they are growing up and becoming adults, they're going through the pandemic, they're going through all those things I listed out. And this is the new generation of our workforce, right? So there's a ton that we need to be mindful of as we're welcoming this new generation into the workforce as well.

Absolutely. I mean, I, I'm feeling this very personally right now. I'm a probably Gen Xer, I guess, is what I would be considered. And my kid, who is just about to enter college in the fall and has gone into the workforce, is— she's a barista right now and also interning for me this summer. They're feeling very impacted by this. And if you think about it, they're just about to enter the workforce. They went through a pandemic in a very critical, pivotal part of their lives, high school, and they are facing down political division, fear around gun violence, especially here in the US. Wars in other countries, and it's a fearful time to enter adulthood. And they are absolutely impacted by that. And that is our new workforce that as leaders we are getting.

And to be clear too, us as adults are impacted by that as well, right?

Oh yeah, we're going to talk about that part later. So first and foremost, what do you think we should be doing as leaders to help these team members through all of this?

Jokingly, you know, the first step is to admit that you have a problem. So I think we need to acknowledge that, you know, we manage and lead, interact with people, and people are complex. We need to know that our people are dealing with these things that are happening in the world and also in their personal lives. And, you know, those things again show up, you know, we carry that with us You know, when we log on to Slack every morning, right. And so I think the first step is acknowledging that and kind of coming to terms with that. I think the other side of the people equation is that, you know, as customer success leaders, a lot of our time is also spent with our customers who are also people and who also, you know, bring things to the table as well. And I know we're going to talk about that a little bit later, but I think it's just acknowledging that, like, we interact with humans and as such, there's a little bit of complexity. I think the next step is to you know, kind of communicate that acknowledgement because we all are probably thinking about these things. Right. And there's sort of unspoken, just like the ways that we work, we kind of dance around it. You start a call with, how are you doing? And everyone's just like, oh, great, fine. Right. You just kind of brush it off. Right. But I think we can acknowledge that like some days we're not fine. Right. And so I think the second step, communicate and acknowledge that. And then the third I would say is to lead by example. So, You know, sometimes, especially as leaders, we're in positions of authority or in positions of power. We have to put ourselves in our team's shoes. You know, not everyone is okay with raising their hand and being the first person to say, hey, I'm not feeling great right now, or I'm going through something, or this thing that happened in the world is really affecting me. And so I think we need to show a little bit of vulnerability first and lead by example and be more open into sharing how we're feeling and creating that space and that example so that our team members can hopefully see there is a safer— there's a lot of talk about psychological safety as it comes to work. I don't think that work can ever truly be a psychological safe place, but I think they can be safer. And so the ways that I think us as leaders can facilitate that is by leading by example and, you know, showing some of that vulnerability ourselves. I think that will create space for others to, to follow suit.

Yeah. As you're saying all of this, I was kind of thinking about time and time is such a factor for us here, especially in the US. Like we really try to cram as much stuff in our days as we possibly can. We kind of have, at least in Silicon Valley and parts of the US outside of Silicon Valley, we have this kind of culture of the like harder and the more you work, the better, but we aren't allowing—

hustle culture, right? Yeah.

We're not allowing time for recovering from what is real trauma for all of us and our employees and our customers. And that takes time. It means that we aren't going to be as efficient as we were 3 years ago. We're just not. And I think by not acknowledging that, we're kind of glossing over something that's a really important part of recovering from what we've all been through for the last 3 years.

I mean, 100%. And I think that, you know, even acknowledging that, that we need to know, one, how to tap into how we're feeling. And I think we were talking about the idea of creating those healthy boundaries, right? And saying that I need a little bit of time and space. I think as leaders, like, again, leading by example and sharing that I'm taking some time off Just because like, one, we should be taking time off and resting and giving ourselves that. But, you know, how do we set and establish those healthy boundaries? Because if we don't, we're going to burn out and there's going to be negative repercussions to that. But how do we communicate kind of more proactively how we're feeling and giving ourselves the time to rest and recover as needed? Because that's the only way that we can continue doing the hard work every day and showing up. You know, even as things around us may not always be going so well.

Well, and that was going to be my next question for you is given that a lot of us are now working remotely somewhat permanently, the boundaries have kind of come down between work and our personal lives. I know that's really true for me and I'm one of the lucky ones because I actually have an office with a door on it. A lot of people don't have that. And so How do we help our team members, you know, kind of make sure that they have those healthy boundaries between work and life?

What I tell my team is communicate, communicate, communicate, right? I think it is— we are fortunate that we can do our jobs via an internet connection for the most part, and that's a privilege. And so with that, you know, I care less about when that job gets done. I mean, obviously as customer success leaders, we interact with our customers and there are certain time constraints that, you know, dealing with availabilities and things like that. But if things that need to happen outside of normal work hours or things that need to happen more packed at the start of the day or at the end of the day, my ask of my team is just to communicate proactively and to block that time. So, you know, I have team members that have young children and they need to do pickup and drop-off and they they have that time blocked off on their calendars. So I think it's about how do we proactively communicate what we're needing and the time and space that we're needing, and also being clear on what those expectations are. If there are certain things that need to get done by a certain date, making those expectations clear. If there's certain times that are just sacred that we meet together as a team, or that you need to take away to, you know, be with your family, I think expectation setting and communicating are kind of the two principles that I'm using with my team and also personally to navigate remote work. Because I think unless we are intentional about setting those boundaries for ourselves, we're going to be working all hours of the day because, you know, work is again over an internet connection. For me, it's about those two things, a combination of, you know, communicating and setting the right expectations with the team.

I think that you and I both have jobs where we, you know, could work 24 hours a day and it would never end. And so it becomes so important as leaders that we set the example of, I'm going to take some time off, or I'm going to stop working at 6 and I'm not going to reply to emails for a period of time. And I think that's okay. And I think that example is really good and healthy for our teams.

Absolutely agreed. It starts with us. Yeah. Leading by example, I think, is a big takeaway with out of these kind of softer topics of, you know, how do we show up? How do we kind of set and create healthy boundaries?

Yeah. So I guess, I mean, there's an upside to some of this too. What do you see as some of the advantages of the remote work environment?

Yes. I've hired a ton of folks during this remote revolution and immediate impact is that I can have access to people from Across the country, we're really US-focused right now, based in New York City. Obviously New York has a lot of great talent, but so does the rest of the US, you know, surprisingly. And so I now have access to, yeah, you know, talent from across the US, which is great. Personally too, I've been able to get some time in my life back. So I'm not commuting, you know, I live in New York, so I take the subway to go into work, or I used to. And that was even, you know, about an hour to an hour and a half, uh, you know, round trip commute. Every day. And so now I instead, I'm using that time to work out, using that time to cook meals. And I know that other folks on my team have mentioned the same thing. Yeah. So there's definitely, you know, great benefits to being able to work remote. I think we're all hopefully getting more time back in our days as well.

Yeah. I think if I had to say my favorite thing from working remotely, it is that I get to see people's backgrounds. And that has created just this like unexpected level of joy when I have Zoom meetings and I see like somebody's little stuffed whatever on the shelf behind them, or their sports team picture, or their jersey, or their, their trophy that they got when they were like 12 for soccer, or, you know, whatever the thing is that is sort of like important to them. You can see those. As long as people have their actual background on, you can see those behind people, and it's so warm to see what people's actual lives are like outside of their professional persona. And that's been one of my favorite things.

It's definitely a glimpse into your— the personal sphere, right? It's people's backgrounds. On that too, actually, I was talking to a coworker about that, and I think in general it's been positive. I do think that sometimes, or there can be times where that's actually not as healthy. People that might be going through personal problems at home and people comment all the time, oh, you're in a different place. We were talking about how like some people that might be going through relationship problems or not having the stability of a home life, you know, you actually now have a glimpse into that too. And so it is a little bit more challenging sometimes knowing that, you know, you have to show up on Zoom and camera on, right. And people can see like, oh, if you're in a different location, oh, what's going on there.

Right.

And it may not always be positive. So I was actually just talking about that where it's, you know, we now have aspects of the personal that our coworkers can see that, you know, we didn't before.

Yeah. Well, and that leads me kind of into my next question, which is really, what do you see as the biggest challenges with remote teams?

Yeah. So there are some challenges that we're seeing as well. So, you know, I talked about getting access to talent across the US. Yes. Huge benefit, great impact. We are now actually dealing with a little bit of time zone differences. So, you know, I'm in New York and I have some team members there on the West Coast. And that's a 3-hour difference. 3 hours doesn't seem like a lot of time, but it actually is when you have to negotiate time at the start or at the end of your workday. And sometimes that means that, you know, we're bleeding into early mornings or later in the evenings. So that is something that's become a little bit more prevalent, at least for our team, which was predominantly New York City based. I think there's also a perception of like reduced productivity. I'm not seeing that, but I think that that has come up for a lot of leaders thinking of Elon Musk and his big, like, we can't phone it in if we're going to be building Tesla automobiles. Right. I haven't seen that. I think if anything, you know, people are just as maybe even slightly more productive. I think that's a perceived challenge. It depends, right? Like maybe some teams actually are seeing that. And then the last one, I'm a big fan of Arthur Brooks. Column in The Atlantic. It's called How to Build a Life. And I think it was just last week he wrote a column about the psychology of Zoom fatigue. And the big takeaway was that Zoom and video conferencing and a lot of the tools that we use to get our remote work done, they act as human interaction and they are human interaction, but they're not real human interaction. And that real human interaction actually makes us happier. So I think that there is probably something happening psychologically. With not actually having as much human interactions with our colleagues. Sure, there's something brewing there. The column talks about actual research behind that too. So that I think is also the challenge is we don't get to spend as much time together physically and there is some drawback there too.

Yeah, I mean, I think those studies are going to come out in 5 years and it'll be too late by then. But I think it is very interesting to think about about like what are these tools doing to us really, you know, and how are they impacting our way that we work? How are they impacting our, you know, mental health? I think there's a lot there to unpack and I think they're starting to unpack it. It's going to be interesting to see what comes out of this period of time for sure.

Yeah. This is a moment in history for sure.

Yeah.

A big one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, So if you're thinking about hiring from different geographies, especially here in the US, but I imagine in other countries as well, you are going to end up with people who have many different values on your team. And we talk about value-based leadership a lot. How do you lead a team composed of people who have significantly different beliefs? I think that beliefs are becoming a lot more diverse now.

It's challenging. Let me speak for myself as a leader. I do value diversity and all of the different dimensions that that brings. I think it makes our teams more agile. It makes our teams more able to support the varying types of customers that we have as well. But with that, to your point, comes potential conflicts in terms of what we believe in, what we value, what we prioritize in our own lives. And I think that that is a real challenge. We actually did an exercise internally about values and We, as a team, a CS team, you know, kind of highlighted our own individual and team values. And we went around the table and everyone shared, and then we shared what we thought was the overlap. And there was significant overlap because I think when you distill it down to values, they're not often in conflict. It's the manifestation in the day-to-day of those interactions that can be more challenging. And beliefs, I think, is where you get a little bit tricky because one of the values that really rose to the top for us was respect. How can we be respectful of each other? How can we be respectful of the internal teams we work with in customer success? And then how do we be respectful, obviously, of our customers as well? And so that was one value that really, I think it was probably the number one. Yeah, it was great that, you know, we were aligned on that single value. And I think that that value in and of itself speaks to how you can lead a diverse team. If you can agree that, you know, we're going to have different beliefs, but as long as we can be respectful of each other, then we can get along and we can all work toward a positive outcome. Being respectful also means like not shoving your own beliefs down other people's throats and not proselytizing at work. And I think the last thing I'll add here too, because I think we need to be careful as well in terms of everyone can have their own beliefs. I agree with that, but I do think there's a distinction between just what people believe in, because those beliefs and what you ultimately think, they have repercussions now. So your beliefs lead to actions and those actions can influence other people's lives. So for example, if you believe in a certain way of living and you vote certain people in office here in the US, and those people then make laws that then limit my access to healthcare as a woman, those aren't just your beliefs. Those actually have impact on people's lives. So I think we need to be honest with ourselves in that too, right? Because yes, I want people to believe what you want to believe, but I think you need to also acknowledge that those beliefs can impact real results and real outcomes for folks. So that's where it gets tricky, right? Because, you know, we were talking about the whole Roe decision that happened, you know, a few weeks ago, and that was a hard topic to kind of contend with because, yeah, you have people on both sides of that, uh, that debate, and you can be respectful, but the fact of the matter is the laws in our country have changed, and that means that certain people in our country are not going to have access to healthcare as they once did. And that's something we need to grapple with because that's a real outcome.

It is, it is. That kind of leads me to my other question for you on this topic, which is, you know, there are a lot of us right now who want to speak up about issues and situations that they really care deeply about on both sides of topics. How do you help people on your team respectfully find their voice?

Yeah, I'm going to go back to what I said before. And I think the first step is leading by example. When the Roe decision happened a few weeks ago, no one really said anything on my team or at the company. We have a women channel in Slack, and so I posted and I said, I'm having a really tough day. And if anyone else is, I'm here if you want to chat. And I shared some resources that I had found helpful and people reached out, people commented in the channel, people DM'd me directly one-on-one. And I think if I hadn't said anything, maybe no one else would have. And I'm one of the most senior women at the company. And so I said, you know what, I'm going to say something. And I think that opened the opportunity for others to speak up. So I think as leaders, we actually have the responsibility to speak up first and to put ourselves out there, be a little bit vulnerable, because again, when people see that, that gives them an opportunity to also speak up. I think also we need to be committed to this. And as things happen, I think we should fiercely defend, again, as long as we're leading with respect and empathy, We as leaders should defend our people and their ability to speak up. And I say this because again, as customer success professionals, we have to deal with and interact with our own internal teams, but so much of our time is also spent externally with our customers. So who knows what their company policies are, you know, what their beliefs are. Hopefully they're aligned with our values. There could be cases where are maybe at the organizational level or even the individual level where they may not be. So I think we need to also show up for our teams in a way that creates safer spaces for them to interact with external customers and partners as well. And so I think also being able to defend and protect our people is also part of our responsibility as leaders.

I think that's so important. I had a client who was in the political technology space. And I think what was interesting as I worked with them is seeing that they had customers who were from both extreme ends of the political spectrum here in the US, and they had CSMs who needed to be able to span that divide. And I think the ones who were most successful at that were able to kind of show respect and give other people dignity, even when they didn't agree with their beliefs, but also kind of detach their personal feelings and frustrations from that interaction. And that's hard to do. And the leaders of that team, it was a constant struggle to kind of help their team members through that because there's some dissonance when, you know, you're working with somebody who believes so very differently from the way that you do. That you have to figure out how to overcome. But at the end of the day, we're all people, you know?

Yeah, we are.

Yeah.

And I think too, in the spirit of customer success, you know, if we can align on a shared goal and a shared outcome, that is what brings us together. You know, we're gonna see the world differently, we might have different beliefs, but if we all are aligned on, you know, we're trying to work together to have this positive outcome that we all believe in, you know, I think that that can also help kind of give a little bit a purpose and a sense of fulfillment as well.

Yeah. Okay. They always say you can only help others when you take care of yourself. So how are you showing yourself empathy during this time?

Oh gosh, this is like the hardest one for me. So I'm a perfectionist. So just going to put that out there. I know it's a bad thing. People are like, oh, that's great. I'm like, no, it's not. It can sometimes be debilitating. And I'm also a protector. So I am the oldest of 4 and I'm the only girl. I was kind of like a mini mom to my 3 younger brothers. And so I think those 2 dimensions really make it hard for me to have self-compassion. But it is something that I've acknowledged. Again, one, first is acknowledge you have the problem. I have acknowledged this problem. Yeah, thank you. I'm working. It's a, you know, constant journey I'm on. But the first thing, I'm a big I've learned so much from, you know, years of therapy and self-reflection, self-awareness of, you know, how I feel, how that impacts how I think and how that manifests into what I do and how I behave. And that has helped me so much in being able to be more self-compassionate. First is self-awareness. And there are things that I put in place now in my life to help with that and to help with stress. I work out, I try to eat better. I try to take time away. Being the perfectionist, I beat myself up when I'm not doing those things. So I need to take a step back and say, it's okay. Sometimes I'm not going to hit all those goals. The one thing that's really helped too, I have the book Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself. It's by Dr. Kristin Neff, and it's an amazing read. It gives you a lot of just like practical tools in what What is true self-compassion? And so it's one that I go back to honestly once a year to remind myself that I need to give myself grace first. So yeah, it's, it's something that I'm still working on, but so important in the work that we do.

Yeah. Mine has been, I totally agree with you on the therapy or coaching or just having somebody in your life who you can bounce things off of. Help yourself realize you're not crazy.

And, or even if you are, that we all are.

Everybody, like, we all deal with this stuff. But like, that has been incredibly helpful. I've had a coach, I've had a therapist over the last 3 years, and that has been huge. But the other thing my coach told me was like, hey, you know, this is gonna seem extravagant, but go get a massage. Once a month. Go to one of those. As a membership, it'll sort of force you to go do it. But she said the mind-body connection is real, and if you go have that, you are doing several things at once. You're helping your body understand that it's cared for. You are helping your mind understand that it's okay to carve out time for this. You're helping your mind understand that it's okay way to spend money on yourself. And so I found a place in our neighborhood, it's not that expensive, and I just go every month. And that has been a game changer. It's surprising how even once a month of that makes a massive difference.

Amazing. I might have to jot that down and do that as well.

Actually, that's a lot. Yeah.

The last thing I would say in terms of how I take care of myself, and along that vein is, you know, that's a great suggestion that I hadn't thought of. A lot of what I'm doing more of is, you know, building community. So, you know, talking to peers and other people that are sort of within the same, you know, life stage and career stage as I'm in. All these things aren't only happening to me. I'm not only stressed out about things that are only happening to me and having that fellowship and that community of others. And hearing ideas and solutions that might be, you know, working for them has also really helped me in the past 2 years. And I think one of the other benefits of remote work is that, you know, now I can meet people all across the country and world and scheduling a Zoom, although I know Zoom fatigue is real as well, but it's opened up a broader sense of community and access to that community that I probably wouldn't have had if I'm just trying to, you know, meet up with people in New York City.

Yeah. All right. We're going to boil it all down. What is the single best piece of advice you would offer a leader who's really struggling with everything that has gone on over the past 3 years?

That's a hard one. Just one. I would say it goes back to some of what we talked about just now, and that is self-compassion. That, you know, the past 2 to 3 years have been difficult for everyone and know that it has not been easy for you as an individual either, but to realize that this too shall pass. And that as long as you are still working toward a purpose, whether that's leading a customer success team, whether that's a really amazing product that helps your customers achieve their best outcomes, that, you know, finding that fulfillment and purpose, all of that still matters. And that, you know, give yourself a little bit of grace and double down on, you know, why you wake up every day and why you're hopefully having a positive impact on your team and the people around you.

I love that. Okay. Last question. What do you see as the biggest trend in customer success today and why?

I think the biggest trend in customer success, not to kind of, you know, go back to what I believe in, is that customer success has the opportunity to blend head and heart really well. And I think we are often the faces of our organizations and that we need to bring the heart to the forefront and we need to lead with empathy and we need to lead lead by example and we need to show other teams internally. And I think the tech industry as a whole, that there is space to have heart and there's space to have human connection and that that is actually what pulls us forward. So I want to see customer success leaders embrace that more, talk about that more, and to build more inclusive and more belonging teams as well. So I'm really excited about that trend and I want to lead by example. So I'm so fortunate that we were able to talk about this today.

Oh, me too. Thank you so much for our conversation today. I mean, I honestly just feel better talking to you about all of this and knowing that I'm not alone. If someone wanted to get in touch with you directly, what is the best way for them to reach out to you?

The best way is to connect with me on LinkedIn. I am very easily Googleable. Just search my name, Ejieme Eromosele Eromosele, and you can find me. I usually accept all of the LinkedIn connections I get, and yeah, I would love love to connect with folks that want to talk more about DE&I and customer success and new ways that we can lead more empathically as leaders as well.

Well, Ejieme, thank you again. I also want to thank our producer Russell Bourne and our audio expert Nneka Rivers. This podcast is a production of Success League Radio. To learn more about the Success League's consulting and training offerings, please visit our website, thesuccessleague.com. League.io. For more great customer success content, follow the Success League on LinkedIn or @TSLCustomers on Twitter. You can subscribe to Success League Radio on Apple, Google, Amazon, or anywhere else you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time.