Whispered Hiring with Ejieme Eromosele - VP of Customer Growth @ Quiq

I think AI today can really give you an accelerated way to really get smarter and get more attuned to how you can position yourself as a candidate.

Do you have a favorite interview question?

Tell me about a time that a customer changed your point of view.

Caring about what the senior level leaders think, but they don't care what their own team thinks. Ooh, I wouldn't want to work for with that person the culture of the team they did.

Like, when someone asks you, like, what do you know about what we do? Right? Really put it in the lens of the customer. Right? Because if we are not in service of the customer, what are we doing as a product and a service?

Welcome to How I Hire, the podcast where we talk with senior go to market leaders about how they find, vet, attract and grow new talent. Today I'm joined by Aja Mae Era Maseli. She is the VP of Customer Growth at Quip. She's held a number of leadership roles there, including running Emea, where I'm running. Met her when she was doing that. And now customer success or customer success as well too. Before that, she ran Customer Experience at the New York Times. And I recently learned she's writing a book on talent and from both sides, from both the applicant side and from the company side. So I'm excited to dive into that. Aja May, welcome.

Thanks so much for having me, Andy. And yes, I'm excited to dive into these topics today about how I hire.

That's neat. Well, maybe we kick it off. Since you're in the AI world and people are always interested in that. I'm curious if you've had any thoughts around how AI impacts executive hiring.

Yeah, I mean, I think we're all still learning and seeing how it's evolving and things are moving so quickly. But I think what AI, at least what I'm seeing what AI does. And let me take the lens again of maybe a few of the different Personas, the candidate experience, companies doing the hiring, and then maybe even a third of like external recruiters. Right. Like, that's kind of the ecosystem of hiring. I think for candidates. It's such a supercharged ability to like, do your research, get really down to how you understand how you may add value to a particular company and to a particular role. It's actually something that I delve into in my book Around Fit, where there's kind of three dimensions. There's, you know, how good of a fit are you for the specific role and the responsibilities you're asked to take on and the core objectives you're asked to move forward with the team itself, how structured or unstructured, how large the team is, and then finally the company. So what is the size stage, the product they're selling their customers? So I think AI today can really give you an accelerated way to really get smarter and get more attuned to how you can position yourself as a candidate. A friend actually shared with me just a few days ago, some new prompt around how you can really, like, get deep. Insert deep research and insight about a particular person. And so think about, you know, if you're going to meet with a recruiter or meet with a hiring manager, you know, really starting from that point of view and really being able to go deep quickly. I think for companies, you know, you hear all of this about like AI recruiters, the human touch, I think is still going to be there, but I think what companies are challenged with these days is just kind of cutting through the noise and getting and surfacing the best talent in general. I'm really interested to see what happens there in terms of like being able to screen and being able to pinpoint and fine tune an AI that really gets you the surface level, who those best candidates are. And then I actually haven't thought about AI for recruiters, but I think kind of maybe the same vein in terms of being able to understand your network, be able to see who are those people maybe talking about things or who are those people that might have some skills that you might be looking for more broadly in the market. Be really curious to see how that plays out.

Yeah, I think both sides are kind of. We're just still in the early stages of figuring it out. I think it's causing both ways.

Absolutely.

Smarter, more targeted, but also like messy at the same time.

Right.

You talked about fit, and I know you've been thinking a lot about that with your book. I'm excited to. To dive into it. You named the three areas role and responsibilities, which I think is probably the easiest to evaluate. Like, you can look at a resume and you can say, have they done the job before? Team and company, Like, I'd love you to go a little bit deeper in terms of both of those. Of like.

Yeah.

How do you, how do you evaluate that when you're hiring somebody on your team?

Yeah. So how they're a good fit for our team and our company? Yeah. There are a few ways to think about it as a hiring manager. So team, I think we need to be honest with the maturity of our teams. Right. So again, I've been running customer success, customer Experience teams, you know, do you have the core processes in place? Do you have your customer journey mapped? Or are you still kind of early in that process? Right. Hiring for someone that's going to help you build that process versus hiring for people that are going to help you operate and implement and maybe refine that process are two totally different types of people that you should be looking for. Right. So I think an honest conversation of like, what is the maturity of our organization around process, around our tools that we're using to be able to achieve certain outcomes is a critical first step. And then to your point of drilling, then down to the skills optimizing for people that can bring skills like being able to craft new processes, kind of like work with ambiguity, you know, would be something to focus in on. I had a manager that said, you know, imagine you're standing in the front of a jungle. Are you more comfortable with a machete or a map? Right. Like being able to identify, like, who do I need for my team right now? And then from a company perspective, you know, there are a few dimensions there as well because, you know, are you working at a large organization that is a, you know, a billion dollars in revenue or are you, you know, a series B company that, you know, is just still trying to find product market fit? The other dimension is who are the customers are you servicing and who would this person be responsible for working with? Very senior enterprise customers or more small business, SMB type, you know, managers. So being able to really understand kind of like what at a company level do we need? Who are the people that are going to be successful in this role based on what our needs are? It's a sort of the team and the company fit as well. That I think is essential for hiring managers to take a critical look at. To be honest with themselves. We all say that we want rock stars and ninjas to come in, but I think, yeah, you can still find that. But the way you find that is to really refine and be honest with where you are organizationally.

I love that. How do you think about like the style of the team, the culture of the team? Right. Like, some are direct versus more subtle and passive aggressive. You know, it's like it's probably hard for companies to. It's probably hard for some companies.

That's not good if you're, if you're passive aggressive, then maybe you need to work on that first.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, true.

But, but I get what you're saying though.

I think some companies may not even.

Yeah.

Like, how do you assess that with a candidate, do you put them in settings to be able to collaborate with the team and get to know the team or how do you think about that?

Yeah, I think it starts by what you're saying first is like understanding like what is the culture internally. Right. And like a lot of candidates ask that question as part of the hiring process is like, what is it like to work here? What is the culture? Be honest about it. Right. Like based on your size and stage, you know, if you have a tendency to, you know, move very quickly, move with urgency. Right. If you over index for people that are more action oriented, like tell stories about that and once you identify those elements of the of culture and really that manifests in terms of behaviors that are rewarded. Right. Once you identify that, then being able to, as you mentioned, craft an interview approach and an interview strategy that gets at that, whether that's role playing, whether that's a take home case study, whether that's. I think you brought a great example. Putting them actually in an environment where maybe they can work with the team on a project. I know that's a lot of time investment, but really having the ability to see how they would act and react in those particular situations will help you then map to the specific behaviors that are indeed part of what makes up your culture. But you know, situation interviews, behavioral types questions can also get at that as well.

Yeah, I love that one you didn't touch on. I'm curious. It's like who you work for or like who works for you. Right. Like I look at it and I say I have a style for myself. I'm going to put it out there in my user manual so people can figure out like do they want to work with Andy or not. So if somebody is interviewing with you, like there is the like, what is her style like and how do you work with her? Like how do you communicate your personal leadership style and how do you filter out for people that don't fit with that?

Yeah, I love when candidates actually ask that question is like what is your leadership style? Right. And I think again doing the work. So much of this is like, this is like therapy here. Do the work first and then once you have that self awareness and that understanding of like this is how I am as a leader, this is how I show up. For example, I love being able just to like text someone actually kind of like to move out of slack a little bit, especially when we're working together. And I'm fine if they're texting me as well. Right. But I think there's certain boundaries with text based communication, especially if it's out of slack. Right. So I think communicating that and then honestly sharing that. Right. So I like to be able to, before I give an offer to someone to join us and if they're going to be my direct hire, actually, before the offer round, I have a kind of one on one, kind of keep it real conversation. It's like, look, I want you to come into this situation eyes wide open. Here's a little bit about what it's actually like to work here. Here's a little bit about what it's actually like to work with me. Right. And I think that gives the candidate the time. Then it's more of a kind of personal, interpersonal. Then this is how it's like, this is who I am as a leader. This is how we're gonna work together. Give them an opportunity, one to ask more questions so that they can also qualify themselves in or out, but also to give them a bit more of a day in the life of here's how we'd be working together. So I think it's really important. I have honestly made the mistake in hiring in the past where it was all sunshine and rainbows. It's like, it's gonna be great. And I wasn't honest. Like, I'm putting it out there. Like I wasn't as honest and as candid as I could have been. And it ended up setting us back because the candidate joined. We were misaligned. They weren't happy. You know, they felt like things had been misrepresented and then we had to start from scratch. So how much time was wasted both on our side and on their side too, in terms of not having those honest conversations up front? You know, I think I'm seeing this today where we're a fully remote company. You know, people ask about it like, you know, are there plans to be. Not remote, no, because we're all over. Right. But I think, you know, not being honest about some of these elements only sets you back in the future.

God, I love the. I have the Keep it Real convo. I never named it before. I actually what I'll do is I, I've, I've written my own user manual. I put it on LinkedIn and when I get to that point, I will literally send it to him. I was like, please review mine. I. If you want to write yours, I'll read yours.

Yeah, I just wrote mine as I keep refining it. But like, yeah, I have like 80% of it down as well. I'LL give another example. So when I transitioned from the New York Times to a series a 30 person startup in New York, I had never done that before, right? I came from Accenture, PwC, some of the largest services organizations in the world. And this was my first startup job. My CEO at the time, Christian, I still remember my, remember this because I'm not far from where he took me to lunch. We went to the Smith in Nomad and he sat me down. He's like, look, you're phenomenal. You're amazing. You've done some really cool things. We think you'd be good here. But he was like, I've never hired someone who didn't have startup experience before. And I'm concerned that you're going to come in, look around and be like, this is a zoo and you're going to be out the door. So he's like, let me help you understand what it's like to work in this environment. Environment. And he had the keep a real conversation with me over lunch. And this is before he gave me an offer. He's like, how do you feel about that? Right? And I then was like, you know what, give me some time, let me think about it. Because I was leaving the New York Times, right. I was like, let me, let me really evaluate if this is something I want to do. But I appreciated that and I still talk about that with him. I'm like, thank you so much for doing that. You gave me the opportunity to really come in with eyes more wide open. And we. Yeah, like, I don't regret it. It was great. But I had that opportunity really to understand what I was signing up for.

Not only that, but it also probably opened doors for your long term relationship between the two of you. Right?

Like you're like, absolutely.

We can now have these real conversations where we voice our fears, our hopes, our things like that. And so I think it can really be powerful. So I, I love those. It's cool. You've written your user manual, I've written mine. We'll wonder if we publish this podcast. We'll make sure we share out both of ours. That is cool. You mentioned kind of surprises in the interview process, right? Like you and both good and bad. Right? Like, do you have any. We talked about a bad one just now, which is like if you could have been more real and you took that and you learned.

Yeah.

We were talking before we started the podcast on like a good in a typical hire, you know, I think that you mentioned that any great surprises in the interview process and like, and maybe tell a story about one of those.

A great surprise. Gosh. A good surprise or a bad surprise?

I think mostly good, but we can go with bad too. Yeah, whichever one.

Well, I mean the bad one is short but I still remember it because I was so excited about a candidate. She was amazing and I don't know how she missed the screen, but this is one of just like those like pre screening questions that are just like so obvious that like once you're in the interview down the line and you really excited about a candidate, you never go back to it. But she needed Visa sponsorship and at that time we couldn't sponsor folks. And I was just like, how did like, did you miss identify this in the beginning or did we fail to see this? Right, so that was quite disappointing. But like getting the basics right and the facts like, don't lie. Just like, I don't. I'm not saying she lied, but like it wasn't clear at that time, but it's just like, it's not that important.

For the company, but it's massively important for the employees. So it's like, exactly respond.

But like, yeah, it's just like be factual. You know, I feel like there's also this question of like, how much do you want to like embellish and play up what you did? People back channel, right? I know you just did a whole post about, you know, references and, and all of that. Like, be honest with what you've done and what you've contributed because you don't want to be the one where it comes back to you. And as hiring managers, like do the work to validate, right? Like did this person actually achieve what they said they achieved? Not to say that like, you know, we should assume that people are lying, but like, yeah, don't lie, be factual. And I think a good surprise in the interview process is yeah, hiring for atypical hires. I think maybe I just always have had a soft spot for that because I have been an atypical hire, right? So, you know, like I said, came into tech very early stage without that experience. But what I looked at and indexed for some core competencies and that's actually how I got my first VP role in tech is, you know, look, I had done management consulting for a decade and I applied the core competencies of things like leadership, relationship development, technical understanding, business acumen to say these are what I think the dimensions of a good customer success leader are. They're actually quite similar. And here's what I've done to kind of Prove that. So I've always kind of anchored on what are those core capabilities that you have to look for and identify that people have done, the skills that are transferable, that they've been building. The other things in terms of the product itself or the type of customer, those things can be learned on the job. What are the things that, for the role, for the context that you're in, you want someone to bring to the table. So I've always been quite, I think, pleasantly surprised that that still held true. Because those core principles. Yeah. Have still held true.

Yeah, I love that. That is, it is so powerful. I think the, the atypical or the surprises are, are the most amazing and the most fulfilling if you can.

Like, yeah, good surprises are good. Yeah, bad surprises are bad.

So how does somebody break through, through in the interview process to you? How do they stand out? Or in the. You've got a role and they're trying to get to you? Like, how about both of those?

Yeah. So I've had a few hires that have really rose to the top in the process. One in particular was really able to articulate the problem we solve for through the lens of customers. Right. So we do customer work. You know, I try to hire for people that are curious and that puts the customer first, so they're articulate. One of the questions I always ask is like, well, what do you know about Qwik and what we do? And people usually like, okay, you're a product that, you know, does asynchronous messaging and you do agentic AI. And I'm like, okay, yeah, we do. Yeah. I mean, that's not a wrong answer. That's absolutely correct. Like they understand the product, but this person was able to say, you know, customer service leaders today are overwhelmed. They have to do more with less. Their teams are attriting, their teams are hard to come by and it's really hard to do this job. My understanding of what Qwik does to be able to free a customer success leader so that their team can do more, their team has more time to do the higher value inquiries and questions, and it positions them and their team as revenue generating parts of the business, I was like, yes, absolutely. Blew me away. Because it got to the heart of the individual who is our buyer, the customer service leader. So it taught me a few things. One, they were empathetic, right. I mean, it was like an emotional journey they took me through. I was like, wow, you got the problem, you got the solution, which is quick, and then you got the happy ending, right? You've got a successful customer service leader. That is our buyer, that's who we serve. That's the problem that they have. So you know, I think being able to articulate like when someone asks you like what do you know about what we do? Right. Really put it in the lens of the customer. Right. Because if we are not in service of the customer, what are we doing as a product and a service? So those types of answers have really blown me away.

I love that. Yeah, it's so many people dial it in or haven't even done the research. But the ability to say that another one I always love is in your own words, explain the role you're interviewing for.

And I love that. Yeah.

And it's especially fun when you're not. When you're the hiring manager, you're the manager of the person hiring. And so you get to be the end and you get to see what they've learned and how articulate are.

Yeah. And yeah, you get to see like where they focus in on. Right. Like are they focusing on like here are the metrics I'm trying to drive. Are they focusing on kind of like the day to day responsibilities? Right. So. So it helps you gauge kind of like how they think as well.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I love it. And also how concise they are in their thinking.

That's right.

Do you have a favorite interview question?

Favorite interview question. Well, I like the really open ended ones. Right. So like, you know, tell me about what we do. You know, one that I also like to ask about. Kind of like, you know, how they work with difficult customers in general. Right. So like I mean inevitably working with customers you're going to have challenges with, you know, getting them to agree to something or you know, getting them to, you know, work with you on a bigger problem. So you know, really understanding kind of like how they work with customers. I think one related to that because especially in our space. So one that I'm starting to ask now is, you know, tell me about a time that a customer changed your point of view because it really is about, you know, we don't always have all the answers. I think if anything some of my rub with moving from consulting to product and tech oriented companies is like we always think we're the smartest in the room. And don't get me wrong, we are very smart people, have very smart people, but our customers do as well. Right. So you know, can you take customer feedback in a positive and constructive way? When has the customer changed your mind about something and what was it so yeah, that also kind of hints at, you know, a customer mindset and empathy as well.

I love that. When is a customer changed your mind? Right? Like that's that nobody's going to have a pat answer for that one. And it's good. They're going to have to think, yeah.

You know, I like it, but I find like it stumps people too much. I'm like, sorry. And sometimes people are like, well, I don't have an answer to that. And I'm like, that's fair too. That's okay.

Whenever, whenever I interviewed like support people moving into like other roles, I would always ask like, what's one thing you would want to wave? If you could wave a magic wand, what would you change? And like they're like two thirds of people take themselves out. Right. Like they're just not good. And so But I like the idea of what something where have you had your mind changed or like, yeah, like convent changed otherwise on a customer.

So people, yeah, I have to say the way I answer that, like, you know, it happens quite a bit. But I think for me it's really a customer has helped me more understand the challenges that they face internally to get projects done right. So I think we come in, you know, we're small, scrappy, move fast, break things start up, but we serve enterprise. So like I'm constantly reminded and constantly taught by my customers the amount of work, analysis, change management to make this stuff happen. So what I'm continuously learning is that we're actually in the business of like delivering change to these large organizations. So what are the ways that we can be more effective at that? So yeah, that's how customers change my mind or help me learn every day.

I love it. Not just give your best interview question, but also answer. Give the best answer too. So people, if you're interviewing with exam, like don't watch this. Everyone else please do. Lee, as you referenced, we were just writing an article and didn't post it yesterday or today actually on references, I'd be fascinated. Like how do you do references? Like do you do references and how do you think about that?

Yeah, I like to do references. I love when it's a back channeled reference though too. But yeah, you know, before we give an offer, I have the keep a real conversation one and I have the, you know, can we chat with a few of your references? I usually ask for someone that's been their manager and a peer. If it's someone that is in a manager people manager role than someone also ideally that has Been on their team, which I think is maybe a different approach. But I do like to see engage, you know, how are they as a manager? They can say all the things to me, but you know, how are they really when it comes to day to day people, management. And in that conversation, you know, it's really, how do you work with this person? You know, what are their superpowers? What were some of their areas of development? I do spend like maybe two to three minutes describing our company, what we do and the role and just saying, you know, we're really excited about this person. Like with that context, you know, is there anything else that you want to highlight? Anything else I should have asked about? So yeah, they're usually 15, 20 minutes. You know, obviously if you're asking someone to give you a reference, hopefully they're selecting folks that are going to give good references. I have actually had a few, a handful that's like, yeah, you know, I'd be concerned about this, this and this. And they were legitimate concerns. So I appreciated that honesty. But again, the back channel references are where you can kind of get at the heart. You know, it's people that are not hand selected by the candidate themselves.

I love it what you just referenced. Maybe think of something which is the. I don't just ask for people who manage them, but also who they managed.

Oh yes.

I literally got a text from my old boss days. Like I put you down as a reference. I'm like, great, yeah, yeah. But I think somebody sent me something else really interesting in the last couple of years, which was there was one person, they said they're amazing at like caring about what the senior level leaders think, but they don't care what their own team thinks. And I was like, ooh, I wouldn't want to work for with that person. The culture of the team they did. And so I think the idea of I never, I never insisted upon reference from somebody who worked for you before, but I feel like after your comment, one other comment and then like that, that concept, I'm like, yeah, I would want to know like the culture of the team, team that this person's building.

Right.

Are they two faced up versus down or something like that as well too?

The other one that I think is interesting, especially for team leads and people managers. And I've not done it yet, but I've been drinking a lot of the Kool Aid of team first and team one and how you as a leader work across the different functions organizationally and I think especially in customer success, post sales, post acquisition Teams. That's critical to our job. So I want to also start. I mean, how many references can you ask for? But someone that is up here, right, to see, like, how do you work together to move these objectives forward? How is this person collaborating with you? Because I do think that I've seen examples of really strong people, managers, really strong upwork managers, but kind of are like elbowing and like knifing everyone to get there. And that's not good either. Right. So that's another dimension of like how team first and team minded are you as well.

I love that. I gotta write that down as well too. So say you've got somebody hired. How do you make that first? How do you make them as successful as possible? Like in the first, like month, two months, whatever it is. Do you have a tactic, a strategy?

I throw them in the fire. That's part of it. No, I think so. I have an onboarding template that I've been using for a few years now. And it's essentially, here's where to find all the things, here's the standard, where to go, here's some of training materials. But I spend a lot of time for that role. I mean, going back to that kind of team. Team first, how you work across the organization. And I write basically the people that they need to kind of like meet and what they should topics that they should be talking to this person about. So I kind of give them a head start of like, you know, so let's say the director of customer success I hired, you know, this was, hey, here are the three people on the product team. Here are the three people on the marketing team. Here's the context of their role and. And how I expect you to be working with this person. Right? So it gives them a bit of a head start in, okay, like, you know, everyone does like, oh, grab 15 minutes like you're new to the team, walking on board. But I find that those conversations go one or two ways. One is just like, hi, it's just general introduction, which is nice. And then it's like, yep, this is what I'm gonna do. Like, nice to meet you. And there's no kind of like, structured approach to like, here's what my job is gonna be, here's how I envision that's working together. Like, you know, what's the cadence of this relationship? How do we make sure that, like, we're driving to mutual outcomes? It's not as structured. So what I like to do is kind of give a starting structure to those conversations. Three to Four bullets. Here are some topics I would suggest you talk to this person based on how I envision you working with them.

That's amazing. I never thought about that before. I'm learning so much on this thing. It's just neat to see how you think about it. What questions haven't I asked you about talent and hiring? I know how deeply you think about it that I should have asked that run through your mind.

Yeah. Well one of the things I'm actually dealing with right now. So maybe let's workshop it a little bit. So I had a junior, my junior account manager decided to leave, go on to greener pastures. He spent many years here. He grew up as an sdr. We promoted him to a junior amount. So it was time for him to go and do different things. But now that book is kind of our long tail of customers. I am really evaluating better leveraging automation to handle some of those tasks. But where I'm challenged is, is that it's not a full time job anymore potentially if I'm automating many of these touch points in these interactions. So I'm like, I design what I would like to be basically a unicorn. And I'm being very honest and very self aware that this person likely does not exist. But I've kind of created a junior AM plus kind of like meets revox person.

I see that all the time which is CS and account managers saying like I've decided I don't want to be customer facing for the rest of my career and they start to do a little task here and there. So I think sometimes you can take your high performing AM and you have that career combo right of like what does the next five years look like for you? And I'll often give people like little bits of projects in Revops to be able to figure stuff out. Yeah, yeah.

So I think that's where I'm leaning. But we're also, we're hiring for a director, senior director of Rev Ops too. So I'm like okay, we're going to hire a senior person for this role. So I guess where I'm struggling with. And you didn't ask me like where I'm struggling but I'm offering that up because that's okay. Is. Yeah, is, is it's not a full time job anymore. We don't have our, our senior Rev Ops leader like that's enrolled yet. So what do I do with this? Like you know, I'm considering even like going to some outsourcing agencies to do like you know, a half am. Time. But, you know, this is still a strategic role and strategic part of our work. It's just that I'm trying to automate and free up 50% of that time. So then what is this person going to do? So I think the broader question is like, as we're injecting AI and to go to market and into what we're doing, it is actually starting to deliver the promise of it's going to free up your team's time. So, like, how do we think about roles? How do we think about, okay, what else should they be doing if we do have this. This time now available? So I'm grappling through that.

I love it. I'll send you a fun article I wrote on scalable scale rules. Right. So at Box, we would. Our head of the cco, John Herstein, had this really great philosophy, which was, if you have 20 people trying to do a task, it'll never get better. But if you put, if you have one with each, with like 5% of their time, but if you put 100% of it on one person, it'll get better.

Right?

So I was always, when I ran csops with John at Box, I would always look for scale. Scale things. I remember at Culture Amp, we went there and, you know, we had everyone pinging the security team. And so we're like, okay, that's not going to work. We're going to put one new guy, Ian, and we're going to get. You can only talk to Ian. You can't talk to the security team. And Ian's job is to automate himself.

Out of a role.

Right. And like, yeah, we gave him technology, he figured things out and we were able to like, triple and quadruple in size without hiring any more security people, without hiring any more, like, of Ian's. And so I think there are those roles there that especially. They're easier if you think about it from a growth perspective, which is like, yeah, I get it, it won't be there. But, like, if we double or triple, we can't hire three of you, we can only hire one of you.

I. I mean, that's well articulated, related, right? Is it like someone that's willing to be like, I'm actually here to automate, like 50, maybe 70, 80% of my work. But, like, I'm gonna do such a great job. And look, we're still a growing and scaling business. Like, if you do such a great job at that, like, we will create. There'll be another role for you. Right? So finding someone that has that attitude and aptitude.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, at the same time, if the company's not scaling, then it's no fun. Right. So it's like the effect as long as you're at a growing company.

That's right.

That's amazing. Well, I truly enjoyed this. I feel like you think about. You're incredibly articulate how you think about hiring and talent and fit. And so I'm excited to read the book, and I'm really honored that you agreed to do this today.

Thanks so much, Andy. So great for you to have me on. Appreciate it.

Thank you. Have a great day.

Thank you.