27: Building Target’s Non-Alcoholic Drinks Collection with Emily Heintz of Sèchey - Business of Drinks — Business of Drinks

You're listening to The Business of Drinks, a podcast dedicated to helping drinks businesses grow and thrive. Whether you're in wine, beer, or spirits, or the non-alcoholic drink space, we've got you covered. We take a data-driven approach analyzing the products and categories that get customers excited and identifying new business opportunities as they emerge in real time. I'm your host, Erica Ducey. Thanks for joining us and let's dive in. Hello.

Hello.

Today I'm excited to bring you an interview with Emily Heintz, the founder of Sashay. Sashay is a retailer focused on alcohol-free and functional drinks. And also low-dose THC products, and it launched in 2021. The bricks-and-mortar shop is in Charleston, South Carolina, and the e-commerce platform ships nationwide. I wanted to have Emily on the podcast for a few reasons. The first is that we've seen in the past several weeks the demise of several startup retailer concepts, including Boisson and Foxtrot. These retailers were known for featuring emerging brands like the drinks companies that I work with as clients and feature on this podcast. And I'm committed to highlighting routes to market that are working. And Sashay is one of those options for a range of brands. It's also a fantastic example of innovation in the retail space. One of the things I talk about with Emily in this interview is the notorious difficulty of raising money as a female founder. According to PitchBook data in 2023, women-founded startups received 2% or less of venture capital funding in the United States and Europe. The number has remained unchanged for over a decade, so it's a real challenge. But that difficulty didn't slow Emily down. After she launched the e-commerce site and the bricks and mortar store and found fundraising efforts to be challenging, she didn't throw up her hands and quit. Instead, she regrouped and she found a way to build her brand nationally by partnering with the mass retailer Target. Sashay now has a curated collection of its products in Target stores nationwide, and we're talking some 2,000 stores. The brands carried there include Shirley, Starla, and Desoix wines, and non-alcoholic cocktails from Ghia. Edna's, and Mingle, and functional beverages from Kineuphorics, along with Sacher's own branded line of de-alcoholized wines. So in this episode, we cover so much. A few of the takeaways to highlight: how Sacher landed its curated product collection within Target stores, what Boisson's closure means for the emerging nonalcoholic product landscape, some of the regulatory challenges faced by nonalcoholic brands, how retail pop-ups helped Sachez build its own brand awareness, the shifting distribution landscape for nonalcoholic and THC beverages, and why Sachez is modeling itself after Sephora, along with so many other things from customer data, who's buying nonalcoholic and functional beverages, to how Sachez developed its own in-house brand. There's a lot in here, and I think you're going to enjoy this interview, so let's dive in. And now a word from our sponsor. Scott, how often do you hear a drinks brand mention that they're having trouble finding the right importers or distributors?

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Emily, thanks so much for coming on The Business of Drinks.

Oh, thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, Sachet is doing so many exciting things that I knew we had to have you on. OK, so tell me about your background.

Well, I started in retail on the sales floor at Macy's and fell in love. And from there, I had a variety of roles. I was a merchant at a company called Ballard Designs, at a swimwear organization. I then helped Lacoste open a number of retail stores across the country. And I'm dating myself. It was when they first came to the US.

Love that brand.

Yes, it was really fun and just a boot camp. On store operations and expansion of a brand. And then from there, I worked in really California fashion and apparel and sales and just like bringing that industry and supporting it. But it was the decade that I spent in really technology that gave me this drive to continue to not only consult with global retailers, but adapt to changing behavior and thinking about like how do retail and e-commerce blend. They call it omnichannel. I don't love that term. Harmonized retail, I think, is a really wonderful thing. So my background is truly in the trenches of brands and retail, and that's what I brought to Sashay, to my retail concept. So, and then the last layer that I don't always talk about, but In 2004, in the very early days of e-commerce, I launched my own business with a partner and we brought LA style and brands online. It was before we had Shopify, before we had any way of bringing an e-commerce business globally. So that planted the seed for me that I wanted to have another business. It just took 20 years to get there.

And so what was it that made you launch Sachet? What, what, what was the hole in the marketplace that you saw and wanted to fill?

Well, bottom line, I always knew I wanted to start another retail business. I didn't know what the concept would be. I was waiting for the right time and the right idea. And when I started exploring my own relationship with traditional alcohol and discovering these amazing brands entering the space, this is probably back in 2019, I recognized that the opportunity for an entire new category in a white space in the industry was, was the right time. And sachet became my idea.

Yeah. And so what does sachet mean?

Actually, it is a nod to the French word for dry. It is a made-up word, but it's based off of sèche or sécher, which in French is to be dry or dry. So technically we define it as dry-ish.

Yeah.

And we speak this language of alcohol flexibility. Versus full sobriety.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like that seems to be more and more of the trajectory that a lot of the non-alc space and THC seems to be taking. I mean, I've seen some statistics showing that 90 to 94% of non-alc purchasers are actually, you know, I guess the drinks version of like flexitarians, so that they're drinking alcohol sometimes, but they're substituting non-alc drinks on the other side. Is that sort of the behavior that you're seeing?

Absolutely. It's really about choice and owning your own relationship with alcohol, whatever that means to you. And I founded Sashay with the vision of increasing the awareness, availability, and convenience of alternatives. But that doesn't mean that— I mean, you could take a day off, you could take a week off, you could be, you know, living a fully alcohol-free life. You would find something at Sashay that works for you. But the majority of our customers are drinking traditional alcohol, you know, beer, wine, and spirits. So it's really about adding. Yeah, right. To their repertoire.

Right, right. It's like the additive instead of like subtracting.

Yes.

Yeah. And so tell me, how did the company launch? Like what, what year was it and like what did the rollout look like?

Well, I came up with the idea for Sashay in 2020, kind of put it in the back pocket. And in 2021, you realize this is the time, right? I was really seeing the societal shift and I wanted to test it. So I put up an e-commerce site and I was literally driving alcohol-free beverages around Charleston where I was living at the time and seeing if customers loved it. And they did.

Yeah.

And that morphed into a pop-up shop and then it just kind of grew from there. It was really about customer demand.

Yeah. Yeah. You were selling initially just kind of a DTC, but essentially like you are driving the product there. Air sort of thing? That was like the first iteration?

Yes, because I didn't know. I wasn't gonna sign a lease and put all this money into a business without really understanding if there was a demand. Yeah, but I did buy a Fiat and branded it Sashay and put Drink Less, Live More on it, and then just took orders from my e-commerce site and delivered them to customers' houses. So there's, there's probably pictures out there of me delivering— yeah, you know, alcohol-free wine and beer around town. It was, it was kind of fun in retrospect.

Yeah, that's such a good idea too. I mean, I think like having that sort of like brand visibility and getting people excited about like, what is this thing? So Sashay has like evolved substantially since those early days and it has come to have a really interesting business model. So talk me through what are all of the revenue streams?

Yes, we said we have an interesting seat, right? Because we are, at our core, Sashay is a brand, but through that brand, we recognize our vision in an e-commerce site, in a direct-to-consumer physical retail space where there's discovery of brands that are alcohol-free. And then also we've now developed a relationship with a national retailer so that we can curate the best of the brands that we've discovered in, you know, everyone's local neighborhood. And then with that, partnership, my longer-term vision of having our own vertically integrated products, so our own brand, was accelerated. So now Sachet has a line of Diackelheiss wine. And so it's all very— so there's, I mean, that's 5 revenue streams. So yeah, it's, it's a lot.

Yeah, totally. And so that retailer collaboration, notably Target, that is such an exciting relationship. So tell me more about that. How did that come to be and what does that relationship entail?

Well, we kicked off the podcast with me introducing my background in retail. So I always had my pulse on the best retailers in the country and the world. Target is a merchant-led organization. They excel at selecting excellent brands. They, you know, being a merchant-led organization operationally, they just— they're the dream partner with almost 2,000 stores in the US. It's a great way to bring the best of the category to the guests.

And so what does the relationship look like at this point? Like, how many stores and like in, in stores, what's— what does that— what does the sachet sort of section look like?

Yes. So sachet for Target is currently in the adult beverage aisle, right? Because we also just talked about adult beverage drinkers are the ones that are typically buying nonalcoholic products. So we have a curated assortment. It's a nonalcoholic snack. Statement, mostly ready-to-drinks, functional beverages, and then several different de-alcoholized wines. So that's what it looks like. And we're really thinking about it as, you know, where is the guest buying? Where are they regularly? Like, how can we bring brands to them to make it more convenient so they don't have to buy online, so they don't have to go to a specialty store? Those channels are so important. Yeah, but it's nice if you're making a regular trip to Target to be able to pick up a few things. Totally incremental behavior.

Definitely. And I saw somewhere, I think that is it, is it like that you get like 8 feet of space in each of these stores?

We're sharing which brands and every store has a different configuration. Every store that there's Sachet products in has a different number of those brands. So the best way to figure out what's in everyone's local store is to go to Target.com and a store locator. And look for the brands in the assortment, which are Sachet, Starla, Gia, Shirley, Can Euphorics, De Soie, Edna's, Mocktail Club, and Mingle.

Nice, nice. So it's like mostly RTDs with a couple like 750ml, right? Like this Sachet and then the Shirleys are the 750s.

Sachet and Shirley have 750ml. Shirley also has a rosé by the can in a 4-pack. Starla has a zero-sugar, low-calorie, no-carbohydrate red wine from California in a 2-pack, mini bottles, which is great. So then you're also gonna find the functional beverages from Canuforix and Dasua. And then we've got ready-to-drink beverages in a can. So whether it's a sophisticated alternative like chia butter aperitif to a cocktail in a can that you can mix with traditional alcohol or drink on its own. Like there's a wide variety of options.

Yeah. Yeah. And are you at the point where you're getting any feedback from the stores or you originally had started out with a test? So tell me about that. It was a Dry January or it was a holiday test before this national rollout.

So we had a holiday and Dry January partnership. Just, which was an end cap in the grocery aisle. And we did variety packs with our top 5 brands so that it was really about driving trial behavior and getting customers introduced to the nonalcoholic category. So that in January was in 1,300 stores with adult beverage license.

Nice. And so then now has the sort of permanent collection rolled out into that same number of stores or is it kind of variable depending on the state and region?

So industry-wide, major retailers swap their in-aisle POGs, right, every year, right? And so this is part of that reset. And in the adult beverage aisle, you can now find these nonalcoholic products. So we're really excited. They will sit next to de-alcoholized or arrested fermentation beer, so NA beer. There's also some hop water, things that have already been in the assortment previously.

Interesting. So like in my local Target, they don't have any wines or spirits or beer, I believe. And I'm in New Jersey, so I think that's potentially why, but I'm curious. So in other states, there's like, there's alcohol, these products are appearing next to essentially alcohol containing beers. Is that correct?

Yes. So as, you know, as a category, for all the reasons we just discussed, discussed, it's best to sit next to alcoholic beverages, right? Because that's that behavior.

Yeah.

So if there is a location that does not have adult beverage, it will not have sashay products or non-alcoholic specific products in that assortment. But it does bring up a larger issue that everyone in the No/Lo movement is really aware of, and that's that federally dealcoholized products or anything below 0.5 ABV is a food product. But state by state, there's a lot of variations in what they consider a food product, what they consider alcohol. Sashay HQ is in South Carolina, right? So we adhere to South Carolina state law. I have a beer and wine license in the state of South Carolina that's 7 days that allows me to carry dealcoholized beer, wine, and spirits.

Yeah.

And so that's, you know, every state.

Yeah.

We're still working through partnership with distributors to make sure that, you know, we're looking at state law and impacting state law where we can, because at the end of the day, it's about choice and we want to make sure that we're removing any barriers at the state level.

Yeah, it still seems very confusing because I think in New York, for example, liquor and wine stores can carry dealcoholized wine, but they can't carry products like Shirley, which like don't contain any prior wine. Like it wasn't a dealcoholized product. It was like an addition of several other ingredients sort of thing. So it makes it pretty confusing for the consumer, I think. Yeah, it seems like because we're in such early days, it's almost like every single state is trying to figure out how to make things work out from the legal perspective. And right now it's just seems like kind of uneven and confusing.

Yes. And the New York New York state law is very unique. In fact, I was chatting with a lawyer recently about, about it and why liquor and wine retailers cannot carry alcohol-free products. So yes, it's, it's, and that's not just unique to New York, that's all over. There is an association called the Adult Non-Alcoholic Beverage Association that is working, you know, at state and federal level to get ahead of some of these issues. But we've got some things to climb ahead of us.

Yeah, definitely. Well, it's still early days. So let's chat for a second about this sachet wines because I know that is a new product. So tell me about your vision for those.

Yes. So early in launching Sashay, I protected the name and the trademark Sashay globally in multiple categories. And one of those categories was de-alcoholized wines. It was always my vision to launch a line of de-alcoholized wine, but the partnership accelerated that. So we looked at the wines that we already carried and the wineries behind them to find someone whose juice we really believed in, and we imported those wines. So we have a Cuvée Blanc, we have a Pinot Noir, and we have a still rosé. And that is our inaugural launch of Sashi Wine. So yeah, it's been very successful. It's very exciting. I think I cried when I saw the bottle and held it in my hand for the first time because that's your baby. Yeah, it's really, truly it is. And I knew that I could get behind, you know, the bottle because we had already had 3 years of data from customers. Totally, totally.

And so are those exclusively sold in Target or are they being sold in your shop as well?

Currently it's all exclusive to Target locations. So you can buy online, pick up in store, or you can walk into Target. We have ordered inventory for our physical store in our D2C channel. It's just not here yet. As you know, supply chain and demand for these products are still catching up.

So yeah, absolutely.

We should have it by June.

Yeah, that's exciting. Well, let's talk a little bit about retail. So you are operating your shop in Charleston. Tell me about that bottle shop a little bit. And like, are you doing like a lot of tastings there? Sort of like what's the vibe of the shop? Is it more showroom experiential?

The physical concept for Sashay always included a tasting room. And when we had a 6-month pop-up in New York, we actually had a speakeasy in the basement where we hosted events and then we had a tasting bar upstairs in the store. So I do think it's really important to have a place for customers to taste, try, discuss, educate themselves on the category. So the vibe in our store is very open. It's welcoming. The retail part is so important because it's about discovery, building a relationship with the customer, and there's so many questions that they have.

Yeah, definitely. So, and recently we had the news of Boisson, which is a chain of non-alc retail shops, and that they are shutting down their retail locations. So I'm curious to get your perspective. You know, what do you think that these closures signify for the industry?

Well, I do believe that there is room for both specialty retail and mass retail for alternative beverages, for non-alcoholic, for no-low. Just like you'll see chains for alcoholic beverages or independent wine shops around the country. Like, that is still going to be the case for nonalcohol. I just think we have to, you know, state by state is going to be different. It may just be 1 to 2 stores in certain markets. And then you see a lot of variation the way you do with other liquor and wine stores.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, because we're also seeing the nonalcoholic products start to become more available in like Targets and I recently saw some something about Walmart expanding its selection. I think it's, you know, it is going to be a period of evolution in like the coming months and years. But I think what I like so much about the idea of a standalone shop is just like as a place of experimentation and like having those social sort of events. I mean, I almost wonder if there's like a ticketed component or something like come and taste all of these products, because what I see in the marketplace among consumers, you know, among people I know and even some of the, you know, younger employees and that I'm friendly with, people really want to try the products, but they're not always able to find them. And I think that, that has led to a lot of sort of, there's curiosity, but there just has not been a way to fulfill that demand very easily. So like having those sorts of places where people can come in and try the products, I think is still pretty crucial.

Oh, absolutely. And I definitely believe in events around discovery and tastings. We did some in New York. We do monthly events in the, in the store in Charleston, and that's going to be a critical piece of our growth. And I could talk about this all day long. There's a lot of challenges with distribution. Earlier we just referenced this in state-by-state laws and said the distributors of non-alcoholic products and the brands themselves, it's the how do you get it to store? How do you get it to the restaurant or the bar? Like, we're still solving for that. So availability and convenience are definitely a challenge.

Yeah, definitely. Well, currently the distribution question is a, is a good one because I'm, I'm curious and I've kind of been trying to figure this out on my own. Who is providing distribution of the suppliers that you work with? Like, is it mostly beer distributors? Is it mostly, uh, sort of like specialty food distributors or wine and liquor distributors? Like, who is distributing into sachets?

It's all of the above. Yeah, truly. And buying online and direct from the brand. So it's challenging for an owner and operator of a multi-brand specialty retail company right now that specializes in these alternative beverages because we haven't even talked about, you know, the legal THC. That's a whole nother, you know, layer of products. So when you think about where we're headed, we will solve those problems. It will be easier. But it is— it's a lot to make sure that, I mean, first of all, there's a lot of brands now in the space, which is wonderful. But sorting through all those brands, you know, making sure that we, we have in stock the brands that customers are demanding. But then we also are introducing new brands that customers are excited about. I use Sephora as a parallel and I use the early days of indie beauty as a comparison, right? When we were really thinking about what we're putting on our skin and now we're thinking about what we're putting in our body. So whatever it is that you're drinking, we're thinking about the beverage.

Yeah.

So at the core, this isn't about nonalcoholic. This is about wellness.

Yeah.

And like, I think if, if you're looking at it from a wellness lens, then we need to educate consumers on, well, what are you drinking, right? And how does that fit into your lifestyle? And how do you celebrate, socialize, and connect?

Taking that Sephora analogy, so Sashay as the Sephora of drinks sort of thing, is that, is that like what you're thinking?

That's my dream, right? You know, you, if you are a beauty brand, you want to be on the Sephora shelves. And Sephora is a great partner. Sephora also has partners and wholesale and other retailers. So I would say they're one of the best in class, much like Target. So with a retail background like I have, like I certainly aspire to those retailers.

Nice, nice. All right. So let's talk about the customer, the Sashay customer. Tell me who this customer is. We've established that they have, you know, oftentimes are drinking alcohol and maybe substituting alcohol and nonalcoholic drinks. But beyond that, what are some of the demographics that you're seeing?

So our customer really spans all ages and mindsets, and I know that's crazy to say. And while we do skew female, we see a lot of men. Women make the purchasing decisions for the majority of households in America. So you're certainly going to see that reflected in the sachet guest and customer. But we've got every generation walking into the store. Some of them are really young and have never consumed traditional alcohol. Some of them are in their later years and potentially medication is conflicting. And then you've got Gen X and, you know, they've got full plates, right? There's no room to really be hungover and they're looking for alternatives to what they're currently consuming.

Yeah, definitely. Well, speaking of that, because I am Gen X and pretty much everyone in my social set is all about THC products, let's talk about the introduction of THC products to sachet?

Yes. It's not something that I thought we would even introduce, but we're about alcohol flexibility. Literally, the sign says Alternative Bottle Shop. So yeah, a THC product is an alternative, and it's now about 30 to 40% of our business.

Oh, wow.

And yeah, it's, it's pretty exciting. I think that a beverage is a great way to be introduced.

Yeah.

Again, though, you still need the education around like what's in the can, but it fits right into our ethos, right? The awareness, education, the convenience, the discovery. Totally, totally.

What are some of the brands that you're carrying?

We probably have almost every brand that's out there on our shelf that we're testing. Yeah. And it is new. It's, it's a very similar, right? Like there's a lot of new brands in the space. So again, getting them different ways, some by distribution, some directly from the brand, some from the online retailers that wholesale the products. Yeah, it's really fun to see. I was in the store this morning looking and asking the team like what's selling really well and what was their response. That customers are delighted and surprised that we have. And just to clarify for the listener who's not familiar, we're speaking about THC, which is Delta-9. It is legal on the federal level. We're not talking about recreational THC, which again, same thing, is different state by state. I mean, I think I've got 20 brands in the store right now.

Oh, wow.

Yes. So I hesitate to call them out.

Yeah.

And we don't carry online right now for Delta-9 products, beverages, one, because there's state by state restrictions. However, we are going to— when you ask me what's next for Sashay, we are going to be launching a THC-specific website.

oh nice—

in the coming months so that we can ship. I just wanted to do it the right way.

Yeah.

And also similar to the way that sashay.com operates for the brands, it's about discovery and education.

Yeah.

Of those products.

Totally. And so speaking of e-commerce, let's, let's talk about that because I think, you know, a lot of drink companies and retailers, a lot of what I hear is that these days it's really tough to build those e-commerce relationships and the customer acquisition cost digitally is very high. So I'm curious to hear from you, you know, having launched sashay.com in 2021, what the growth path has looked like.

I'm going to speak very harshly as a business owner about shipping beverage and e-commerce. So e-commerce has really not been a focus. For a number of reasons. One, beverage is heavy, it's expensive to ship, and it breaks.

Yeah.

And then the other reason is that every brand we carry not only has their own D2C site, and so we're competing with the brands, but they're now more and more increasingly on a site like Amazon.com, which is again really hard to compete with. Totally. And, you know, there's other retailers that have entered the space that ship non-alcoholic beverages. So I really am looking at sachet.com as how do we offer something different? And we're still thinking through that. I don't have the answers yet, but yeah, we are really leaning into— if you go to our site— education. We've invested in AI from a recommendation engine, so we'll continue to do that. And then the last thing that you mentioned, for every retailer, whoever you are, any brand, it's that the customer acquisition costs online are incredibly high.

Yeah.

And there's changes to privacy rules. So I would say I'm not alone in that, in trying to sort through e-commerce. And while I do that, my main focus has been on the physical store, including a partnership with national retailers so that we are able to get the convenience aspect in local neighborhoods and not having to ship everything.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that people will be so interested in that you were able to leverage or like in, in the smartest way work with a national retailer to do something that I've never heard of. Like I've never heard of a boutique retail brand really other than Sephora, to be honest, because you see Sephora and JCPenney's and so forth. But that's the only one I can think of that where I have seen a smaller retail brand come into a bigger retail setting. And I know I asked this a little bit earlier, but I just wanted to dive in for a second because it seems so relevant. You know, how is it that you were able to pitch them on this super unique idea to work with Sachet as the curator of an entire selection of their store?

Good question. And, and actually, again, to the beauty parallel, So in addition to Sephora, Ulta has shop-in-shops. Bluemercury has a shop-in-shop model at, at Macy's. So it's more common than you think. But what isn't common is that we are partnering in grocery and beverage. So that's, that's very exciting. But as a merchant and as a store manager and now as a business owner, like that to me made a lot of sense. It's a confusing category. There's so many brands. The customer can get overwhelmed very easily, right? So yeah, so the partnership is really about presenting some of the best options in the space.

Yeah, right.

And like putting our stamp of approval, if you will, of Sashay on those products.

Yeah. I mean, it's so smart because I think the just having that brand reach and being able to essentially be associated with, you know, we are the curators of an entire category is such a unique opportunity. How long was the pitch process? Or like, when did you start this and how long was it before you found out that they were willing to do a pilot?

Yeah, much like any entrepreneur, you know, everything takes longer than you think it's going to take and a lot of hard work behind the scenes to make it happen. So I launched Sashay in 2021. We started talking in 2022, and then it went live at the end of 2023. So, you know, it's for me, I mean, I say this very publicly, I wrote and I told them this, like I wrote my term paper in 2002 on Target. So as a, you know, longtime professional in the retail industry, it's, it's a dream. And I think we're all moving so fast in this industry because the demand for nonalcoholic beverages is so high. It's, it's difficult to take a step back and be like, wow, this is pretty cool. So thank you for recognizing it. And yeah, and then it's also, listen, the customer is, is demanding. And Soshay as a brand, I'm continually shocked and delighted that our dry-ish messaging is really resonating with the guests. And right, because listen, Prohibition did not work. Yeah, I am not here to tell you to never drink again, right? I love the term Neo-Prohibition. We use alcohol flexible all the time, and it's, it's very welcoming.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

So to extend that nationally is is wonderful.

Yeah, definitely. And just to get in so many locations where there probably are not any alcohol-free bottle shops in any sort of near vicinity of, of those shops. Let's talk a little bit more about customers. So I'm curious to know, in your, in your own shop, in your own retail location, what types of things sell best? So are you seeing, you know, 750ml bottles, RTDs, non-alcoholic spirits? Like, what, what are the movers?

Well, when someone walks into Sache, we have the store categorized by category and then by brand. And so you would look and see there's a CBD/THC section, there's a, there's a de-alcoholized wine section, there's a distilled spirits and mixers section. And within those categories, the things that move the fastest are the smaller versions and the formats, things that are easier for trial behavior. So in wine, the minis sell really, really well. A lot of the distilled spirits have come out with smaller versions and formats. So what we're seeing in person is that customers really aren't sure and they want to try it first. Cocktails in a can do really well because it's easy. Yeah, right. A gin and tonic in a can, you pop it, you can start with a real gin and tonic or traditional gin and tonic and move to an alcohol-free one, or you can host a, you know, a guest in your home and have options besides coffee and water. So when you start thinking in those terms, it really makes sense that those products are moving faster. And we do carry both 4-packs and we allow singles. And online we also sell by the single. Now, not everyone does that because it's operationally very challenging, but I believe in driving that trial behavior and tasting and testing and figuring out, you know what, What do I like? And my wonderful sales team, one of the things they ask if you walk into the store is, well, tell me what you like to drink.

Yeah.

And that's a great way to figure out, okay, let me guide them to maybe a bitter aperitif, or let me guide them to the functional section. Or if their drink is always red wine, let's go look and talk about what de-alcoholized wine is and how a red wine is made and maybe suggest a few.

Nice, nice. And so help people understand how to work with Sachet. So you must receive dozens of new pitches every week, I would imagine. And what is it that you're looking for right now, and what makes you either accept or reject a new brand pitch?

Yeah, well, I've been very inclusive in the past, right? And there are some brands that have been with me from day one that are still at Sashay, that we have wonderful partnerships and will continue to be there. I am always looking for new brands. We accept samples and pitches from everyone that reaches out. I think it's really important to get a pulse on what's happening, but we also ask customers and, and my team will taste and try. I will taste and try. But again, like, just because I don't like something doesn't mean that we won't carry it, right?

Yeah.

There's— everyone has a palate and we want to carry a variety. So I try to be really open. I think a combination of smaller brands that don't have distribution is important because you want that element of discovery for the customer. But also would love to carry brands that the customers are expecting and demand out of an alternative bottle and alternative bottle shop or modern bottle shop. So it's, it's a balance. It's hard. I mean, with any merchant-driven organization, you know, it's trial and test and learn. We're going through a review right now in anticipation of holiday and resetting our current assortment, but we haven't made those decisions yet. So yeah, if you're a beverage brand and and you'd like to be carried at Sashay, like, definitely reach out.

Yeah. And what's the best way for people to reach out?

So I'm very open with my email. It's EmilyHeintz.com. I am the first line of defense and I typically would introduce you to my team. But we do love to build relationships with the brands. So I'm here for listening and hearing what, what you're developing.

And then how often do you do a reset? In the store?

Well, we haven't talked about this, but it was actually incredibly difficult to get a permanent physical location. So I wish I could answer, but we've had— this location in Charleston is our fourth place.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, that's all the trials and tribulations of entrepreneurship and launching a brand from scratch is another hour-long podcast. But yeah, yeah, right now we'll be doing it annually, very similar to our national mass retail partners.

Nice, nice. And so, like, tell me a little bit about— because we didn't, we didn't hit on that. I'm curious to know, along the way, what have been the most challenging things? I mean, I know a lot of people say, like, funding, getting funding, getting investment, such a huge challenge. You know, what have been some of the key challenges as an entrepreneur that you've, uh, encountered along the way?

Yes, financing is probably the hardest. I think any entrepreneur will tell you it's— there's no way to prepare you for it because it's literally constant rejection. And my background in sales helped because I was used to hearing no all the time. And yeah, and then you really have to have endless optimism and it helps sort out the entrepreneurs who truly believe in their vision. Because if you don't, at the core, if you don't believe it's going to work, it's really hard to keep getting up every day and pitching again. So, and then, you know, we just went through and are still in some pretty severe macroeconomic challenges for fundraising. And then on top of that, I'm a solo female founder, which one would think, and I, as I mistakenly thought, that was going to be helpful. But when you get really into fundraising, the numbers truly do not lie. It is 2.9% of overall financing and funding. And then, yeah, you know, that's tough. But we, we're here, we're not going anywhere. Yeah, I, I try to not tell everyone how hard it is. I really, I try to approach, you know, my day-to-day with joy, but it's, it's hard. There they're very high highs and very low lows.

Yeah.

So there's a couple of things I tell myself. It's one, this too shall pass.

Yep.

Right. And then the other thing, which, you know, I just can't get too excited or too upset about anything. Right. So while all of this news is wonderful, there's still the grind of like running the business and, and scaling.

Yeah.

So you layer in fundraising and it's, it's a job in itself.

Totally. Totally. I mean, yeah, it's not all like cotton candy and unicorns.

No.

Yeah. I mean, and I hear you also on the, on the female founder side, you know, I've been talking with a lot of drinks brand founders lately. I was just on a call yesterday with several female drinks brand founders and, you know, talking about the investment scenario right now. I think between, between getting investment and finding distribution, those were like the biggest challenges that that people are finding right now. But it does seem to be, I think the numbers don't lie, like you were saying, like only 2.9% of investment is going to, uh, you know, female founders. So I was interested to see that you are supporting a lot of female founders with your selections. So yeah, tell me a little bit more about, you know, you said you like to, uh, develop relationships with brands. Like what are some of the, the brands that have, you kind of, you know, helped either bring to the public and/or have worked with over a period of time?

So one of the exciting things for me about this industry from the very early days, a lot of the brands are led by females, to your point. And so by partnering and by purchasing their brand, like we are supporting each other, right? And that's been, that's been really exciting for Sashay because we, have a four-wall element. That's not something that most investors understand. Or, you know, we mentioned there's 5 different revenue streams. So the complexity is a little bit different than when you're a beverage brand growing and asking for financing for development of product and distribution. Whereas with Sashay, I'm building a vertically integrated retail and brand model, and that the complexity, you know, may not ever be a fit for venture capital, but there's a lot of interest in what we're doing. And I have very strong partnerships with brands who have either been through it or going through it now. We refer each other. I get asked from the investment community about brands, and I'm very here for sharing it. Someone asked me yesterday about a brand that I've been carrying since day one, and I was very transparent about my thoughts. So I think we're here to help each other and I've had brands refer me and yeah, it's exciting. I have text chains with a lot of founders and so we're— because we're all in it together, whether we're on the brand side or the retail side, it's been, it's been a good ride because we're experiencing the same ups and downs and the same challenges.

Yeah, definitely. It definitely seems like there is that community element among the non-alc space, but even the alc space as well. I will say that there's just a good element, especially among female founders. I've, I've definitely seen that. So tell me about some trends that you're seeing. I'm curious because I kind of notice that there's— is it maybe a movement away? I don't know. But I'm starting to see some interesting new products roll out that are not just analogs, like analog, you know, sort of spirit sort of thing, but they're actually, you know, interesting new formulations with botanicals or functional beverages. What types of trends are you seeing?

Yeah, no, that's very true. Typically when this, this whole movement started around nonalcoholic beverages, it was a replacement of something that you were used to drinking, right? Like a gin replacement, a tequila replacement, a wine replacement. And now we're starting to see, you know what, it's— it could be a very— like an energy drink, a healthy energy drink that is in your glass. You're drinking at the end of the day. And we're seeing ingredients being added to beverages that, you know, maybe you've been taking in a supplement form before. So L-theanine is a pretty popular one. Mushrooms are having a huge moment. Anything with mushrooms in my store is doing really well right now.

Oh, interesting.

Whether it's a chocolate, a gummy, a de-alcoholized beer, a, you know, I mean, it's all over the board and we're open to all of that, right? So Sashay is a destination. For alternatives, we should have not just liquid, we should have ancillary products, we should have supplements. And we do.

Oh, that's great.

I hesitate to name certain brands because I do try to be inclusive and yeah, I'm not here to call winners. I'm here to like have our guests have a wide variety and they can develop the relationships with those brands from being in our store.

Yeah, definitely. All right. So how big do you think the market for nonalcoholic products can get?

So a lot of the statistics that you'll find show the growth, right? But they're showing the growth for specific nonalcoholic products like beer, wine, and spirits. It doesn't necessarily include ready-to-drinks. And then when you, when you pull out from that and you think about how much nonalcoholic product is really out there, well, what about water, right? And so adult, adult sodas. Like, it's so broad. So I try not to, to narrow down into those statistics. I look at the trillion-dollar alcoholic beverage industry and I think about, well, what percentage of those alcohol drinkers are going to be substituting alcohol? And that's the true TAM. And then you overlap that with the $4.3 trillion wellness industry, which is what we've been talking about. So, you know, really the sky is the limit globally for this and I'm seeing it. And, you know, yes, there are going to be winners in the space. But if you think about how many brands are in alcohol, how many brands are in wellness, there's room for so many alcohol-free or alternative beverages because as alcohol consumption We are going to look for things to celebrate, connect, and socialize. It just may not be traditional beer, wine, and spirits. And that could be anything. Yeah, right. That's in your glass. I always say people don't want to toast with coffee and water. Yeah, right. But I was just drinking water out of a wine glass. So, you know, it sometimes isn't really about what's in your glass. It's really just about the moment and you get to choose. What's in your glass.

Yeah, it's interesting because I, I was just talking to a founder today and she was saying that, you know, in certain markets there's regulations around the types of words you could use, like spirit or something. And I was like, oh, you know, I've been seeing so many brands use social tonic, especially the CBD and THC brands are— a lot of them are calling themselves a social tonic. And it is interesting because it seems like what seems to be resonating on a consumer level, or at least what's working for a lot of these brands, is marketing a mood, right? And so it's that, you know, it's like giving a vibe. It's either like a social vibe or it's a relaxing vibe or it's an energizing vibe. But I'm starting to see more and more products just marketed as moods. Are you seeing that as well?

Absolutely. It's another question we ask when someone walks into the store, you know, we try to determine if you're trying to replicate something that alcohol, traditional alcohol, might provide you, right? And culturally, we lean on alcohol maybe as an upper or to relax us, right? And, and so yes, to answer your question, I'm seeing that because where a social tonic could be marketed as a relaxer, right, or it could be marketed as something to give you a buzz.

Yeah.

And I think that's great because everybody has different moods every day. And if we're going to replace alcohol, we should think about what alcohol is giving you that we want to replace.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. All right. Well, last question. What is next? What's next for Sashay?

Great question. You know, I can't predict what's going to happen in a year or 5 years, 10 years. But my vision for Sashay is to continue to scale our brand across the US and then go, go global, right? Immediately we are bringing in additional Sashay-branded products to sell, and I'm looking at markets outside the US that may have different challenges or opportunities.

And so the vertical integration part of like Sashay products, do you see that that could expand into more than the wines that you're currently offering?

Yes. I mean, we'd love to have a hero product in every category. We'd love to have our own product that's unique, that we own the formulation. But it's a page out of luxury apparel and luxury beauty, right? Like, these can sit side by side. It's not a competition. It's actually complementary. And why? Yeah, our sachet wine can sit next to other top wines.

Yeah.

So yes, I, I think leaning into that this next year for sure. I can— that's not a prediction, that's absolute. And that is a little bit less cash intensive to scale over, yeah, like opening more four-wall retail stores, which is where I initially had envisioned. Um, but I mean, we've talked about all the reasons why that's difficult. Yeah, particularly state by state. We're, we're excited. I can't tell you how, how wonderful it is to just know that we've got so much exciting growth in front of us.

Well, I am excited to keep following along. So Emily, thank you so much for coming on The Business of Drinks. I loved hearing about Sashay and will look forward to hearing more in the weeks and months ahead.

Erica, it was such an honor. I am here for any podcast. I love a good podcast. Yours is wonderful. So this is really a pleasure. To chat with you.

Oh, thanks so much. Thanks for joining us on The Business of Drinks. Follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you're listening and tap that notification button so you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops. And please help spread the word. Click those star ratings and share on social. It really does help us find new listeners. Finally, if there's something that you'd like to see covered, give us a shout at podcast@businessofdrinks.com. At businessofdrinks.com. See you soon.