Episode 16; Getting Real with Emily Heintz of Sechey. — Tea with Rich. Getting Real.

Good morning and afternoon, everyone and anyone. Welcome to another episode of Tea with Rich. And today we are excited to be joined by Emily Heintz of Sashay. Emily, how are you doing this morning?

Doing great. I'm sipping on my coffee, excited to talk to both of you. Thanks for making the time.

Yeah, yeah. Rich, how about you? You're in California, right? Gertrude's doing a TEDx and you're playing the supportive spouse.

Supportive spouse, 100%. Excited for her Sunday. She's going, going live. So yeah, we're out here in Ojai. The sun's just coming up.

So fun, useless fact, I did a TEDx like a decade ago.

Wow.

And they only allowed 100 people in the theater, which I thought was a failure because I didn't pay attention that you only allowed 100 people in. And it was on collaboration and innovation. And I did a super weird talk. Where I basically took my life story as an exercise in collaboration of other people, unbeknownst to all of those people, to get me where I am today.

That's so cool.

Yeah, yeah, you can Google it. I think it's just my name and TEDx, go right to the me on stage part.

You were early with the TEDx.

I was early. I was scared shitless, and I actually talk about how afraid I was because my kids called me before I went on. You know how you like, you're supposed to picture everyone is in their underwear and it calms you One of my sons is like, just pretend you're in your underwear. And I'm like, oh buddy, you're like, that's not the way it works.

It's the other way.

Yeah. It's a young me. No, no, no beard. I'm just doing me. And I literally put a whole slide deck together and incorporated a lot of, a lot of interesting parts of my story that a lot of people don't know. Anyways, back to you, Emily. So how are things going with you? I mean, we chat, you know. Fairly regularly. Sashay is killing it right now. You're in Target. I don't know how many stores you're in, but once you kind of take a couple of minutes and kind of bring us up to speed where you are now and what's going on in your life and your involvement as sort of a pioneer in the, what I would call the non-alcoholic movement. And then we'll sort of dig back a little bit because you have an interesting history too.

Yeah. So Sashay's current footprint, we have a flagship location in Charleston on King Street. It's our laboratory. You know, you guys know we believe in retail and the physical experience, especially for a nascent space like the no and low movement, because people don't understand nonalcoholic or adaptogens or functional beverages. And then we are in partnership nationally with Target. So Sache for Target to curate, you know, an assortment. It's a very confusing— there's so many brands, so much to look at, so much to choose from. And as part of that, initiative, we have a Sashay-branded non-alcoholic wine. Technically, it's de-alcoholized, so it was wine, the alcohol was removed, and then we balance it to make it taste amazing and sophisticated and allows you to join in the celebration. So that's where we are today. We just closed— well, today's January 30th, so end of dry January. It's been busier than ever, and I think you guys both saw The slew of articles around even the Surgeon General issuing a warning about alcohol as a carcinogen. You know, the younger generation's not drinking or looking for alternatives. So finally we're getting that headwind that I've been waiting for.

I love that story and I've been following you. So let's back up a little bit because I actually don't know what adaptogens are.

Yeah. So, you know, one of the big categories that's growing in non-alcoholic is that, is it the, I call it the functional category where you're replicating a feeling alcohol might give you, right? So whether it's a buzz, relaxed, help you sleep. So the beverages will have nootropics or adaptogens or plant-based botanics added into them. So examples of those could be anything from like tryptophan and melatonin, valerian root for sleep, 5-HTP, GABA, caffeine, collagen. I mean, the list is so long. So you really in the functional category have to look at, okay, what feeling am I trying to achieve? And it's always— it's not always that simple, which is why physical retail and educated staff, it's so important.

Yeah, that's— I mean, you're in it deep because I didn't know any of that stuff. I just recently saw a commercial for a beverage that was nonalcoholic that supposedly was, was giving people a buzz and gave them that kind of feeling. But, you know, we, you know, Rich and I are on opposing ends of our relationship with alcohol. So Um, which I'm so, you know, I was, I think the first time, Rich, you hang out with me in a bar was in London at the pub. And, uh, that was when you got your, your cranberry and soda.

You always had a joke, Emily, you don't know, like these guys would call me from the club late at night and like, Rich, like we've got a cranberry for you, come out. And they'd send me pictures and they'd be calling me and I, I was like in bed, like literally.

We, well, it would, it would be great to anchor the conversation if you guys are comfortable sharing your personal journey. With alcohol and what it looks like today, because that's typically when someone walks into my store, I ask, what do you like to drink? And that allows us to have an open conversation about, you know, either they're sober curious, alcohol-free, friend of Bill, just walking in thinking we're a traditional beverage shop.

Sober curious, alcohol-free, friend of Bill. What a, what a, what a Beautifully. What a beautifully soft way of saying all of that. Rich, why don't you— not to put you on the spot, Rich, but you, oddly enough, you just happened to actually write a post about— are you 31 years now?

February. So just that, well, in a couple of weeks, I'll be 31 years, you know, when I stopped drinking. And it's so funny you say that, Emily, because someone said to me the other day when I was talking about it, they're like, Are you a friend of Bill? Or they made that reference and I had no idea what that meant.

Yeah.

I just had no idea because I didn't go through the AA way, right? Like I just stopped kind of cold. So I mean, just rewind. Yeah.

So you drank into your late twenties?

Yeah. Well, not late, early. Yeah. Yeah.

20. Well, yeah, 25, 26. So Rick, why don't you tell, tell your story because mine's Mine's not your— mine's, mine's, mine's a little different than yours.

I mean, my, mine was more a journey of consciousness. So, I mean, and, you know, I've never, you know, bore the cross like no one should drink. That wasn't what it was. It was more drinking. I didn't use drinking, uh, in a good way, right? Me personally, right? Like, I use drinking to escape. I use drinking to get away from feelings very specifically, right? And my father was a binge drinker. I mean, I obviously didn't know that till later, cuz he didn't drink that often, but when he drank, he drank. And that was more my relationship to alcohol. Tough week at work, go out, let's get fucked up. Like, I wanna forget my week. I have feelings, I don't know what to do with them being the man I was. You know, what do you do with anger? What do you do with hurt? What do you do with fear? Well, let's just drink. And try to forget it all. And then usually the next day everything's way worse. And I sometimes was an aggressive drunk, aggressive drinker, because I didn't know how to handle my anger. I mean, it was just something I didn't deal with well. So you can imagine me, I should have gotten beaten up. I mean, a lot of different times and in bars for just stupid things, right? Playing pool and I'm super competitive and I would lose and, you know, there's a, there's, you know, a board that has names of who's playing next, or there's quarters on the table and be like, I'm playing next. And I would just play next, like just total asshole. I mean, for real. And then what I started realizing was there's no accountability either. Like I'd go, you know, I'd see my friends the next day and they'd all be like, oh, you were so funny last night. Right. And you know, and you know, oh, that wasn't you. It was, you know, cuz you were drunk. Well, that was me. Right. You know, and so there was this kind of issue. No one's holding me accountable. No one's saying, dude, you were an asshole last night. Like you said things you shouldn't say to people, you know, you should have gotten beaten up. Someone should have punched you, you know, that kind of thing. So it took me a long time to kind of re— my relationship with myself, I guess, and that alcohol wasn't supporting who I wanted to be as a as a person, but, you know, also as a husband, because I got married and then we hadn't had kids yet, but I kind of made the decision like, I never want to be hungover for my kids. You know, and sometimes I think you start outside yourself, you know, do it for someone else, but it was pretty clear to me, like I had, you know, some memories of my dad, you know, throwing up, you know, listening to your father throw up. You know, in a toilet, you know, it's not a great memory, right? So I think it took me a long time to come around. It took me a lot of what I'll call social emotional intelligence and realize I needed to have a better relationship with my feelings for myself to be better in relationship with anyone, but first myself, but then also my wife. I mean, my wife played a big role in this, you know, for me, cuz I, she'd wanna talk about stuff and I'd be like, nah, I'm not doing, I'm going to bed. I'm not talking. Oh, cuz conflict was like a bad thing for me. But then when I drank, I was into conflict, but when I wasn't drinking, I wasn't. And I had a tough— because my dad was super fun when he drank, you know? So I had this weird thing like, you can't have fun unless you drink, right? So it kind of took, took a lot for me to kind of come around to it. And the last time I drank, it was very funny. I was in Mexico. I think you know the story, don't you, TJ?

I do. Was it, was it the wedding or something related to it?

No, the last time I was on a work trip, I was in Mexico City for like 2 weeks. I had a distributor down there who was— this was obviously way before Lions. I was at a technical training company. We were selling hydraulic and pneumatic trainers. So we shipped these things down there and we're at this trade show and I'm away for 2 weeks. And this guy's, you know, I'm drinking with my host. He was a very good host, but he starts having a conversation with me like, you should have a wife in Mexico. And I was like, what? He's like, well, yeah, you should have a wife in Mexico. You have a wife in the US. You should have a wife in Mexico. This is, this is a true story. And I'm like, you know, when you're drinking, things seem like good ideas, you know, which is that, you know, I'm like, oh, and he's like, and then we can go to Cuba and you can have a wife in Cuba too. And, but he went to the point, like, remember that woman at the booth? Like, her name's Bianca. I can introduce you to her parents and you can marry her. You know, I was lonely, I was away for 2 weeks, I'm drinking. I'm like, that doesn't sound like a terrible idea in the moment. I mean, it's a terrible idea, but you know, but I'm, I thank, you know, God that nothing happened. 'Cause literally I like flew out the next day and I was like, it's just a really weird thing. I was going to a weekend training with my wife and it was about soft addictions. And so I'm going to this training and I was flying back and I was like, I, you know, you weren't supposed to drink 24 hours before. So I had broken that rule cuz I was just out getting hammered with this guy and gonna have another wife. And so I was, I remember I'd landed in Houston and I was like, and there's snow in Chicago. I'm like, please cancel my flight. Please. Like, please, I don't wanna make it. And so I did make it and I was like, this one's going in the vault. Like, I don't know if you have the concept of a vault, right? But this one's going in sealed. I'm never talking about this story. I'm not talking about anything that happened. So I go through the whole weekend, don't say anything. And then on the way home, I just told my wife, I'm like, listen, you know, this happened. I was very tempted. I don't want to ever be in that situation again where I could make a mistake that I couldn't live with, that I couldn't live with. So that was the last time I drank.

Amazing.

31 years?

Yeah. 31 years and a couple weeks.

Wow. Congrats.

That's amazing. Thank you.

So I have a question for you, Rich, on that, because all of us haven't lightened ourselves yet. Like there's a group, you know, we're, there's a squad of us. I mean, I can think of 8 or 10 of us, right? That, overenjoy ourselves from time to time. Never tempted, never anything, huh?

Like, you're always a stoic guy, but, um, yeah, I mean, I think I just— I mean, obviously it's been a long time, right? So 31 years. So it was before I had kids, but yeah, I'd been married. I was 25, I guess, when we got married. So a few years into marriage when I stopped, and it, you know, I had to get around to— I can still have fun. I can still express myself. I can still, you know, be me without drinking, you know, because when you have that belief, like, I need to have a drink to calm myself down. I need to have a drink, like, when I walk in a bar, like, the first thing I always want to do is get a drink because it's kind of an anxious thing, like a lot of people and who am I going to talk to, you know. So to be able to kind of take a breath, literally, and you know, it's okay to feel. A lot of it, I think, was my relationship with fear, you know, growing up, you know, that's, you know, in our age demographic where if you're afraid, you're weak, right? You know, and you don't talk about that. You know, so to get that fear can really be a friend and I'm okay with it. It's just energy, you know, I can feel it. Being hurt, like you're never supposed to talk about hurt, like, You know, and I'm kind of going both sides of, you know, the masculine, right? Like if you're on a football field or if you're playing sports, like, yeah, you're not going to be like, oh, you just hurt me or whatever. But it really helped in relationship with my wife and I have two daughters. So think about that. Like I was surrounded by feminine and it taught me a ton. It taught me a ton just about I need to be able to talk about my fear. I need to be able to talk about my hurt and not just jump to anger. So quite a, quite a journey for sure.

I like that version of you, this version of you that I've, that I've come to know over the last several years. But so when you're out, what, like we were out to dinner, like the whole table was drinking water. It's like, do you try any of the new stuff that's out? Any of the adaptogens or any of like the, the stuff?

It's a funny thing. Cause you know, you asked me if I've ever attempted, I really, Once I get, I mean, I'm kind of an addictive personality, to be honest. So once I gave it up, I gave it up.

Yeah.

And that's why I've tried any, me personally, I didn't do the AA thing. Like I was just kind of like, I'm done. Right. It's not working for me, so I'm done. So, I mean, I mean, I've tried different things as well. I mean, sometimes I miss, you know, I was a beer drinker, so I have done some non-alcoholic beers and stuff. Some I like, some I don't. I mean, I was kind of drinking for a purpose. That's the problem.

Yeah. Yeah.

Guinness came out with 0.0 and it's actually really good. Yeah. Oh, I was in Ireland, had a Guinness 0.0. I like it. Tastes good. I like that. I wasn't a great, I never really liked wine. I mean, I didn't, I never got my palate, you know, changed to that. Really? Never tempted, but once in a while I might, you know, enjoy a non-alcoholic beer, but that's just my taste.

Yeah. So you were never a bourbon guy, never a vodka guy, you're not a wine guy or anything like that?

Never got there. I mean, saved me a lot of money because I'm sure, you know, I would have had to build a wine cellar and have the best wine and spend a ton of money because that's like another thing to care for.

I'm just the opposite of that. Like, I would have beer. I mean, I don't know, once you throw a beer up as a teenager, I never— I don't— you never get to taste that. But I'm a B, I'm a I'm a wine guy and a bourbon guy and things like that. But it was funny 'cause we were at NRF, Emily, and we went out to, we went and crashed the partner advisory board social the night before their big meeting. And then we had dinner and it was the first time I think I'd been at a table where we all were just drinking water. My friends are, you know, when I go into a bar, I literally tell the bartender that, you know, like I want, you know, a soda and lime with a splash of cran in a rock glass. You know, I don't want the big fucking Coca-Cola glass. And if I'm drinking, I'll, I'll, I'll make sure the bartender or the, the bottle service girl or whatever knows what I'm doing. But I have a— I haven't, I haven't reached Rich's. I haven't reached your level, Rich. And I'm impressed.

But I don't think people know the TJ that alternates, like, you know, one on, one off. I don't— I think people just see you as You know, so they don't know this, TJ, though, either, that there's moderation and there's a method to your madness, right?

Well, funny thing is, is I— this— I think when I first brought Shannon to an event, I brought her to Shop Talk in 2019, and it was the first time I remember because I got talked about the entire show. It was the first time anybody had seen me let my hair down and like, be like they all were like, I've seen them 100 times, right? It was the first time, but that's because I was with somebody, I was in love, I felt safe. I, you know, because normally when I'm out, I'm the keeper, right? I gotta— I'm watching the squad. Even when I'm out with more seasoned people, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm the guy. I make sure nobody's left. I make sure nobody's— you're the dad. I am. It doesn't get talked about that much. But that, but that is me. But, um, I love, I love that story, Rich. And, you know, congratulations on 31 years.

So thank you. Thanks for, thanks for asking Emily Heintz. And I appreciate what you're doing. And congratulations, by the way.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to share, but TJ, I do want to talk about your journey a little bit, like where you're at and there's no judgment. And that's why I started Sashay.

No, no, no. I'm, I'm, I'm with you on that. So I'm going to, I'm going to go in reverse. I'm going to start where I am today. So I, before I went on sabbatical, which I think I'm a, I think it's called retirement now that it's been a year and a month, but I'm still using sabbatical. I like that. Probably a year and a half ago, made like a conscious decision to cut probably 70, 75% of my drinking back. And that's what I've been doing for the last year and a half. With very few exceptions. And those exceptions are events that I go to with friends and hang out with people that I've always hung out with. I'm a social drinker at the end of the day. I've always been a social drinker. I never drank with purpose. And that's, that's what it is now. And I've even cut back more on it. I'm probably more at 80, 85% now. I do have a wine cellar. I have about 275 different wines. I'm primarily a Right Bank Bordeaux guy. I like the Merlot blends. I'm not a big Cab Franc heavy guy, plus the old world stuff is just kind of crazy. And then I've recently gotten into California. So California's probably about two-thirds of the cellar right now. A lot of Italian, a lot of French. I also collect bourbon and spirits. I'm a huge digestif, aperitif guy. So my drinking right now really is down to like half a glass of wine here and there. I'm not drinking any spirits and haven't for a little while. Again, unless I'm out with the squad, and that's a different story I'll get to. And then aperitif and digestives. Like last night, Montenegro is like my, my kryptonite. You know, I've got these really wicked fucking expensive hand-carved rock glasses and I put a big cube. I only pour an ounce unless Shannon wants to share it with me, and then I'll pour two. So even when I'm doing it, it's not that much. And it's after dinner and it's very digestible, digestible for me. So that's kind of where I am right now with, except when I travel and, you know, Emily, you, you somehow have managed to avoid my evening activities, but I'm what, I'm what you would call a social drinker. So when I'm out with the boys and the girls and doing my thing, I am, you know, yeah, I forget sometimes I forget where I am. I forget, you know, what's going on. I forget, you know, how many, how much of this I had or how much of that have I had. And I'm usually the host. Only recently has it changed. And so for me, I, I've always just been a social drinker. The challenge is, as a social drinker, with the exception of the last probably 4 or 5 years where Rich alluded to, I have— everyone thinks I'm just drinking all the time. I'm not. I'm usually like a beverage and a water and/or beverage and 2 waters. And when I'm at a club, the girl who— the table people know it. We do table service a lot. When I'm at a bar, the bartender knows it and people watch me now. But first thing I do is I go talk to the bartender and I'm like, listen, everything you give me, I want a rock glass. I want a lime, I want some cran. That's it, period. Right. So it's been interesting, but my, my life has not been that way. Like, I grew up kind of in a, in a house of drug and alcohol abuse, and it was pretty horrible. And as a teenager, to get along with people, I would go drinking. As a young adult, when you turn 21, I, you know, I thought that's what you did. You went out and you drank and, you know, I, I don't, I wouldn't say I make bad decisions, but the next day, and my wife talks about it too, I have a shell. I think everybody knows, like, you know, I'm a, I can be an intimidating person because I just have this protective barrier around me and I'm always protective of my friends. But what drinking does, if, and I know if I have too many drinks, the next day is my shell is gone. And when my shell is gone, I will cry watching a fucking puppy commercial on TV. And, um, I don't like that. I don't, I don't like that next day feeling. So for me, me, what changed sort of my consumption and how much I metered myself and being very aware of what I was doing. I don't get fucked up anymore. Like, I don't, like maybe once a year I'll slip into it unintentionally, you know, 'cause I don't drink. So, you know, you go and you have 3 drinks and next thing you know, you're like, ooh, that's a good thing I can walk home. But I don't like that feeling the next day. And that's what changed me was I didn't like feeling stripped down. I didn't feel like— I didn't like the anxiety of the next day. I didn't like that shell that I have. I normally have this very thick protective shell. It was essentially eroded. I don't like the look that I have. Actually, there's a look you get the next day when, when you've overindulged and all your friends can see it and your spouses and partners can see it. You might not be able to see it, but you do have a look of, I don't know, kind of wear on you. And I just didn't like it, to be honest with you. And even now I have this huge fucking wine collection. It's just behind that goofy-ass picture. I don't know if you can see around his eyes, but it's just around the corner there. We have a Coravin. I bought a Coravin because I'm only drinking like 2 ounces of these baller Bordeaux wines at a time and I got to put them back. Truth be told, I haven't said it to Shannon yet, but like, I kind of lost my taste for that too. Like, it's not— I don't know. I don't know if my palate devolved over the last little while. And I'm, I'm looking into the adaptogen stuff. That's probably a rabbit hole I'll go in after this because I don't know how to explain it, but like what I look for when I'm drinking something, anything, even if it's a vodka soda, is like that first sip or two when you get that, like, there's like this weird thing, like the first sip of a Coke or a Pepsi, like that feeling is what I'm, what I'm always looking for in a beverage. I've gone on the NA journey. We've got, probably a dozen different things here. You sent a care package, which I destroyed pretty quickly. I loved those little cans of mixers. And so I'm, I'm exploring that, but I'm very conscious of like sugar content and ingredients. And I fucking read every label on everything now. Like I'm very aware of what I put in my body and it's just different. You know, anyone listening to this that knows me is, you know, up until about a year and a half ago, you know, I've pretty much been a knucklehead. And when I went out, you know, I created environments where, you know, people were free to, you know, be themselves and go as close to the fuzzy line of reality as they wanted to. And I wouldn't encourage it, but, but I would certainly create an environment where anybody around me was free to do that. And in hindsight, that probably wasn't a great idea. But we didn't die.

Well, You know, both of you are Sashay customers in different ways. You know, I have products for guests at Sashay that are 40, 50 years sober, and I know what to offer.

Sure.

For that customer, right? You're not going to— Rich isn't going to be in my store all the time, and you may not be a regular consumer, but when you're having a celebratory moment, Yeah. And you, you try an alcohol-free champagne, you might decide, you know what, this isn't triggering for me. I can be part of the party. It's not water, something different. And TJ, most of our customers do what you do, which is like, we call it zebra striping, alcohol flexibility, like just kind of moderating, just being more mindful. And if that leads to leading a pretty alcohol-free life, that's great. But I founded Sashay with the idea that it shouldn't matter what's in your glass. And like, your relationship with alcohol is your relationship. And we don't, we don't want the pendulum to swing so far where it's like, if I choose to drink an amazing Bordeaux or, you know, Pomerol or something, or have a stiff martini, that someone's judging me. Right. We want it to be like, you know, just like everything you decide for yourself. And your personal journey. And yes, alcohol is a carcinogen. I don't think anyone in this world would say that alcohol is good for you, even though there's a lot of studies that you should have a glass of red wine a day, all those things. Yeah, so, and I'm happy to share a little bit about, you know, how I got into this movement, and I do share my personal relationship. I just made a post about how my 7th— this is— was supposed to be my 7th Dry January, and I failed, but I have had 6 successful Dry Januaries. But if failure is— it's— I shouldn't even say failure, but I, I came from a family where my grandfather ran moonshine during Prohibition. I've had aunts and uncles who were alcoholics and went into nursing homes because of it, right? And so there is a tremendous amount of alcohol use disorder in Like Gen X, right? Like baby boomers, because it's just, this is what you did, right? You drank to socialize, connect, and celebrate. So during, like right before the pandemic actually, I read a book about freedom from alcohol, a woman named Amy Grace. She's pretty famous for like examining and doing an experiment on removing alcohol for your life. So I, in 2019, I did my first Dry January. And then from there I was like, this, I feel amazing, but I don't feel connected to the people around me who are vibing, right? It, I, it was very isolating. I didn't feel like I could go out. I was home. All I thought about was like, what am I drinking? So it wasn't a great experience aside from the fact that I slept better, I felt better, I wasn't depressed, I didn't have that anxiety. So. Figured that there was something there. And then fast forward to the pandemic, um, I was living with a partner who was very alcohol dependent, and we were hosting, and I just did not want to contribute to that environment. Like, if I'm going to make a decision about whether I should be with this partner or not, I need to be sober. Like, I need to be thinking about it, right? Like, who I am, what I want out of life. I left my partner and rented an Airbnb and spent 30 days thinking about what I wanted to do with my life. So I came up with the idea for Sashay because I recognized through that journey, just my whole life journey— I mean, I went to the University of Georgia, we partied, you know, like, that is like, you drink on the weekends, you drink during football games. Um, so it was a different mindset, and I thought if I was feeling this way, plenty of other people during COVID were probably thinking about their relationship with alcohol and all of these cool, sophisticated beverages were coming to market. And of course, with my background in retail, this is what's going to be right. Like, this is the next movement. This is the next white space. It's perfect for physical retail. I came up with the brand name Sashay, and then that was 4 or 5— I bought the domain name 5 years ago.

Wow.

Yeah. This is our fourth year officially in business.

I love that story. It's interesting. COVID did a lot of good and bad to people. And I, and I, and I think it was a, it was a reckoning where we were all kind of forced to really look within and, you know, think about and, and address some things that maybe we wouldn't normally do. Shannon and I literally to this day, we've been together for 6 and a half years. We've never had an argument or a fight or, Or anything like that. And COVID was probably the best thing ever for our relationship. One of the things I noticed then when I started looking at NA stuff, 'cause oddly enough in the last probably 6 months, it's on almost every menu here in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, is in the canned stuff is a lot of the stuff seems to just be like tonics and sugar.

Yes.

Like, is that a laziness on the part of restaurants? Is it an immaturity in the market? Like, It seems like if I don't want to drink, but I want to feel like I have a drink, which is exactly what I like. I like the theater of all of that without, without the effect. Right. I know that sounds weird coming, by the way, coming from me, but everything was like ginger beer, simple syrup, right? It was soda water. So like everything is like fucking sugar. Like, why is that? Why, why, why is that maybe my experience? Am I just not looking hard enough or are we immature at this sort of realm?

There's a number of factors that are influencing the challenges for— because at the end of the day, we want the consumer to get a beverage that they want in their hands, right? That, that like they want to return for. And because it's a new industry and because the US is fairly unique in the way that we classify CBD We'll get into legal THC and alcohol. We have a lot of roadblocks, right? And every state has different laws, right? So it's not, and it's also like the restaurants not embracing it, right? Like believing that someone's gonna pay for it to a drink that has like adaptogens in it, or that's not just club soda mixed with like sugar and it has a cherry on it or whatever it is. You know, like there's, there's a lot of education. We're in the early days and then it's the distributors. Like, so yes, the restaurant might want to carry an amazing menu, but they need to know what to select and then they need to be able to get those brands to their restaurant regularly. And right now a restaurant or a bar is being distributed to by alcohol distributors, right?

Yeah.

And isn't NA even— I mean, I think in New Hampshire certainly is— it's still controlled by— even, even zero, like you still have to be 21 to buy like zero Guinness around here, which is my 18, my 19-year-old experienced. But yeah, it's still, it's still controlled and managed. I want to say ATF, but like, because I think those are more on the police side of it, but it is kind of still kind of treated like a controlled substance.

And so, yes, well, we're mimicking adult drinking behavior ethically. We should be carding. At 21, right? Because there is a little bit of alcohol in non-alcoholic beer. It's less than 0.5%. The FDA considers it a food product. Alcohol in a banana. There's alcohol in orange juice. There's alcohol in kombucha. Right. But, but like some of those considerations, especially at mass retail and larger bars and restaurant chains, like they have to follow the rules. Same with distributors. A great example, and I don't want to pick on the state of South Carolina, but I will because I actually had to get a, um, like a full 7-day alcohol license when I founded Sashay. So when we first started the company, we're paying as if we were selling alcohol, but we were not. And the state of South Carolina, you cannot ship product into— legally, technically, non-alcoholic product into the state of South Carolina. Because they consider nonalcoholic beer beer. Like if you're in South Carolina and I don't pick on Athletic because they've done so much for the industry, but you know, you shouldn't be able— there's, there's a lot of change at the state level, at the distributor level, at the retail level for us to, to solve some of these challenges. And the easiest thing and why you're seeing TJ, maybe some canned beverages on the menu, the easiest thing is like a 0% like canned cocktail. That like doesn't have any alcohol in it because that can be distributed by a food distributor. And Kehe is doing a great job with non-alcoholic products, but they still have limitations. Like sachet, our wine, because it's de-alcoholized wine, we have to go through an alcohol distributor through— for the state of South Carolina. And until November of this year, we didn't have enough sachet wine in to get to my store. So I was like, I had a wine, but I couldn't sell it in my own store, which is crazy. And it's very, very good. The other thing is we're importing it from Germany and France. And so domestically, I think there needs to be some, some changes for the de-alcoholization process. And I don't want to bore you with all the ins and outs, but there is like, we're changing consumer behavior, but we're also changing the supply chain process.

Yeah, but it is so interesting. You know, I'm a conspiracy theorist guy. Like, is, is there a little bit of lobbying by alcohol companies companies to not allow this because of how quickly it's growing. I mean, the articles are coming out almost daily of my son's generation, my 19-year-old, as far as I know, Jackson doesn't drink. And he's, we call him the wobble walker. He's actually the one that everyone else calls in the dorms when, when they're not sure if they can get from their bedroom to the bathroom.

What a good guy.

Yeah. Yeah. I call, I call him the wobble walker, but And is some of this like just legal fuckery behind the scenes, or is it just legitimately like the early stages of TBD and C and, and Delta 9 and things like that where people just— it just hasn't gotten to a point where people understand what it is or it isn't?

Yeah, it's just I don't think there's anything deliberate. I mean, certainly big Alp and big distributors are trying to figure out what to do. I love seeing you mentioned Rich Guinness 00, like that's doing really well. I think a lot of the big Alps are adding a non-alcoholic. But at the same time, some of the best products come from the innovation and the smaller players. So we want to make sure that there's a balance, that the smaller players who may not have big enough pocketbooks can still compete in mass retail, which is like the best place, and compete at the bars and restaurants that you go to, because that's the place for discovery, right? Like most people might not know that there are phenomenal non-alcoholic wines out there. There are— 94% of the market today is non-alcoholic beer, thanks to the moves by Athletic Brewing, but also because making beer using— by arrested fermentation is simpler. It's easier. It's, you know, like making that yeast stop the fermentation process, right? Whereas wine is a little more complex. And then with spirits, you know, you're not gonna replicate the burn. Like an alcohol-free whiskey, TJ, is not gonna solve your, like, I love just an ounce of like my favorite whiskey on a cube.

No, it's more, it's, it's more herbaceous. I found that the, the replicants are, are, are more herbaceous. I don't know if that's even a word, but like, um, this is just a different flavor profile and, and I enjoy it. I mean, quite frankly, and it'll be interesting when, when Big Bev does, 'cause you know, they'll come in to the NA market at some point. They have no choice, especially with a generation we've got, you know, I don't know how many kids are under the age of 21 right now, but there's a generation that's gonna be coming of age over the next 10 years that is fundamentally gonna flip it upside down. And by the way, they're also not doing drugs, right? So they're not replacing alcohol with weed. Maybe, maybe some CBD and things like that. But no, it's, it's interesting. It's such a— I'm intrigued by it because I like to have a beverage wherever I go, and I don't always want vodka in me. You know, I learned the hard way about alcohol, you know, unfortunately, a long time ago. I don't remember, 2020. What year are we in now? '25. But I got in some trouble and had to go do a sleepover somewhere and where it was literally 3 days of learning about alcohol. And I was shocked, like this, the things that people don't know about it. And I think it is medicinal, but the problem is nobody really appreciates or sticks to the medicinal dosages. Right. You know, it's calming and, and, you know, it, it can do a lot of things for you if done the right way in small quantities. Like, and I mean small quantities, like the glass of wine things.

Yeah. I mean, it hits a dopamine receptor there. It's part of the way that we socialize culturally. And big alcohol is a trillion-dollar global industry. So there are, you know, I mean, and in the US, like, we have rails that have been built since Prohibition to regulate alcohol as a drug. And the younger generations aren't drinking, but they're going to be doing something, right, to connect and socialize. And what we're seeing is that they're interested in D9, which is hemp-derived THC. It is legal at a federal level thanks to the 2018 Farm Bill. But same thing, just like alcohol, there's research that needs to be done. We've got distribution, state-by-state laws. So I think we'll see more, you know, attention on that as well as non-alc. And sèche is a modern bottle shop, so we cover all of it, right? Like people think I'm sober, that's fine. But sèche means dry-ish, right?

Like you, you, I like the emphasis on the ish.

Emphasis on the ish. Yeah. I mean, I can, I mean, I can choose if I wanna be sober March, April, May, like that's my choice. Why does January have to be dry? Why can't we just moderate and be mindful all year? And sometimes that leads to alcohol-free, and I think that's great. Sometimes it leads to like, you know, this isn't for me, I just wanna drink. So, no problem.

I, I love it. I, you know, I think when I first met you, I thought it was amazing. You know, I went down to Charleston and I didn't find the store, And I think when I reached out to you, you were at the, the Greenwich Village pop-up that you were doing at that point in time.

So, um, I've gotta make it down there. Sounds amazing. I'd love to see it.

You definitely need to come to Charleston.

Yeah.

Rich, you wanna, wanna go to Charleston on a trip? I, have you been to Charleston? I love Charleston. I'm in. One of my favorite places. All right.

It is a food and beverage capital. It is. I mean, there's so, all the restaurants are great. We are on King Street, which has experienced a resurgence in like brands coming to King Street because so much tourism is there. And that was deliberate for us. But the store itself, yeah, is an experience.

I took a picture of the sign at King, the intersection at King and Queen, and I literally show that to my wife. I told her we should get an apartment right where that sign is. So, Em, let's, let's kind of walk back a little bit because, you know, You've been in this NA movement and had Sashay for, you know, 4 years now, but like, it's kind of an interesting intersection of life, right? Like, it looked— you had a career in retail and fashion and moved into tech and moved out of tech. So talk a little bit about kind of this whole thing kind of coming together for you, because even though my knowledge of you is, is an account executive for an e-commerce platform, e-com is actually not really a huge play for you right now because of the, the power and, and sort of prevalence of, of the retail footprint and, and the reach of it. So talk, talk about like, how did you, how did you, let's just cut the sachet part out, but like retail to tech to, I, I'm sorry, re— to retail, to fashion, to tech, to— Yeah.

I mean, if you wanna go way back, when I was 16, I told my dad, look, I wanna be an entrepreneur. I wanna have my own business. I do not wanna live in the suburbs. I don't wanna get married. I don't wanna have kids. And here we are, 47, none of the— I, I like manifested exactly what I wanted out of life right now. I founded my first company, uh, well, I started on the retail sales floor and then I founded my first company in retail in the early days of e-commerce, which I don't share with a lot of people. Um, I was 24, it was before Shopify. This is when you were like coding your own site in Flash and like, you know, You guys know the e-commerce side. So we were buying Los Angeles-based designers. I mean, we did probably half a million dollars the first year. Like it was— we did well, but I couldn't handle the ups and downs in entrepreneurship. We were undercapitalized. I had a business partner. Anyways, moved on from that and vowed to do it again, right? I didn't know when, but I was like, I'm going to do this again. And then so in the interim, I was a wardrobe stylist. I worked retail to get more experience as a manager, all the things, right? Uh, and eventually I was like, if I'm going to launch my own business, I need to understand e-commerce. I need to understand tech more. So that's where I, I transitioned from working directly with retail companies on the operational side as a manager and a recruiter to selling technology. And so I started with in-store technology, app-based, worked a lot with Apple, and then moved into traditional e-com, which is like how you You guys know me from New Store and from Salesforce. So great foundation for understanding like how to build a modern tech stack, right? Wish I could use it more, but the truth is like 20% of retail global sales are e-commerce and 80% is still in the physical store. So, you know, I think getting the physical store right and then focusing on e-commerce is the right move for us. Um, I was kind of waiting through that whole journey on the idea, right, on when I was ready to launch a new business. It had to be the right idea, and I wanted to build a brand, not just a retail store. So Sashay, at our heart, we are a lifestyle brand around alcohol flexibility. I'm not a non-alcoholic bottle shop. I am not a non-alcoholic wine. We want to, like, bring this lifestyle to you. And so I am wearing a necklace that says Dry-ish. We have like little pins that say sachet with a martini glass. You know, I come from brand and retail. Like the store experience is all about education and awareness, discovery. Like my big hairy goal, big hairy audacious goal, BHAG, whatever that is.

Yeah, you got it.

My BHAG is that we are the Sephora of the know and love movement. Right. You come to a Sephora because you're discovering new brands. The team's educated. What are the materials? What's going on in your skin? How do you use it? And that's very similar to beverage. There's a lot of nuances, but yeah, so that's, that's where we are today.

Can I— let me ask you a question on that. And just because I'm curious, because you're into brand and that, you know, and you're looking at the customer, I mean, I kind of have a you know, a thought or a hypothesis that health plays into this, right? You know, TJ, you brought it up earlier, like you're looking at labels like, oh, there's a lot of sugar, you know, and you're avoiding sugar and, and, you know, you're looking for a healthier beverage. Like I went through this with, I love chai tea lattes, right? But if you go to Starbucks, like that chai tea latte, I mean, that's like a fricking dessert drink. I mean, that, yeah, I mean, there's so much I still love it though, but then you find other brands that have adaptogens that you could do, you know, um, make your own chai latte and it happens, it still tastes good, but it's way better for you. So I mean, do you see that playing? Is that a big play with people? Like they want to be healthier or what are the factors, I guess, that are drawing people to you and, and to this movement?

You're 100% right. It is a wellness. Play at its core. So in my investor pitch, Sashay sits at the intersection between the $4.5 trillion global wellness industry and the $1 trillion alcohol rate. And so then that's where the market share is. That's our target customer. When someone walks in my store, the reason why I ask them what they like to drink, it's not only to understand like where to guide them in the store, but, you know, they'll ask me about sugar, they'll ask me about like what, what's in this beverage. And, and I think Understanding the next step is the efficacy of some of the adaptogens, right? It could be sugar-free, but there might, they may be using monk fruit. Like, do you even like the taste of monk fruit? Mushrooms are having a moment and psychedelics.

Yeah. I'm having a moment. Yeah.

The non-psychedelic mushrooms.

Yeah. Are having a moment. And even like the chai tea that I had has, you know, has adaptogens and mushrooms in there, but it, you don't taste the mushroom, but yeah.

And a lot of the cocktails, people say mocktail and I truly dislike that word. It's like there's nothing funny about it. It should just be a cocktail and alcohol is optional, right? Just like a salad could be, you add a protein, like that would be my dream. But there are some things that are better for you than others in this space. So we've also been dabbling in supplements, gummies, tinctures, wellness products in general because. You know, you get to decide what you're putting in your, your drink, right? There is a plant-based botanic line that I love called Ross's Vada, and he has a black ginger beverage that is always in my refrigerator. It's based on Eastern medicine. It's a liver cleanser, so it could be considered a hangover night before cure. So we make— you can make a nightcap. But I have an investor that has never had a drop of alcohol and ever just doesn't like it. And he puts it in his coffee in the morning. Right. So there, you know, it's that flexibility of like, these are great products and with education you can figure out how to use them. But, and I'm going to speak about wine quickly. When you remove alcohol from wine, you remove sugar and you remove calories. So for me, it was important for Sashay as a brand, like our representation of the brand and the celebration, the connection, the socialization is around a bottle of wine. And truthfully, it doesn't really matter if it's water in that bottle of wine, right? Or 100% alcohol, or there's a new movement around like low-alc, like 3 or 4%. We carry some of it. I love that quarter-proof idea, or alcohol-free, right? The bottle sits at the center of the table, right?

Right.

You toast with it, whatever. So, you know, people may not know that it tastes great, but there's less sugar and less calories. And if you find one you like, even if you're only celebrating at a wedding, like I think that's for sachet, like that's how I want my brand represented. I love the center of the connection.

And I mean, you mentioned earlier, and I think TJ said it, sleep, like all of a sudden all these studies about sleep and how important sleep is. So now you're talking about, well, if sometimes you drink certain things, that's going to impact your sleep. You can drink other things like you're saying, you can add things that help your sleep, which helps everything, right? So back to this wellness thing, I'd love, I'd love Sleep as you age. I hear you.

I just, I told you how old I am. Like I have a drawer at home full of things to help me sleep. And whether it's CBD, we carry Alice Mushrooms chocolate. They have like a one for sleep. We've got, um, Nightcap, which is valerian root and lemon balm. I have teas. Like I am all about sleep because there's nothing worse than starting your day with poor sleep. And especially in women, as you age, even one glass of wine wakes you up at 3 o'clock in the morning. And that's, and then you can't go back to sleep because your body can't metabolize the alcohol. And in fact, I'm also starting to get rosacea and like flush when I drink alcohol because my body is now like allergic to ethanol, ethanol, whatever it converts into in your body. I know it's like so sad. Like part of why I don't drink, there's lots of reasons why I, I drink less, but That's a big one.

I like that. It's an interesting observation. So I, we have a rule here at the house. It's sometimes hard to follow cuz Shannon's a nurse and, and I pick her up at 7. So sometimes she doesn't eat till 7:30 or 8, but we sort of run off this 3, 2, 1 thing, right? So no food 3 hours before bed, no alcohol 2 hours before bed, none, not even like my little ounce of Montenegro. And then no liquids whatsoever an hour before bed. And, and when I follow that, which isn't as consistent as I wish it was, knowledge doesn't mean execution here for me. I mean, I'm constantly experimenting with poor and half-assed decisions, but there is a noticeable difference in my sleep. And it's funny you bring sleep up because sleep quality is probably one of the most understated and yet important parts of a healthy regimen that you could possibly have. I'm, I'm the opposite. I won't take anything. Like I've had like different things and I take a magnesium pill, you know, a couple hours before bed, but that's about it. I, I tried the, what's that chemical that they give you that you take at night? It's like a, um, melatonin. Melatonin. Yeah. Bothered me. Like, yeah, literally it, it would, I wouldn't, I didn't, wouldn't stay asleep. Like I would fall asleep, I'd have a good first half of my sleep, but the second half of my sleep, something about melatonin just kind of messed me up. But sleep, there's sleep.

Yeah. My magnesium, melatonin, tryptophan, valerian root. Like there's a, we have brand called Lilo that uses kava for sleep. Like there's, there's a lot of things you can try. It's just figuring out what works for you, just like anything. And then there's stuff that we have that could give you a buzz, right? Without alcohol. 'Cause sometimes people want a buzz, you know? And so we, we, it depends on what effect you want that we, we have lots of options. And there are some aperitif digestive type things too, TJ, that I think you would find interesting. I don't know if you've tried Pathfinder or—

Yeah, I do. I Pathfinder. Pathfinder. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think they make 3 kinds, right? I think I have, I think I have all 3 kinds that they make. We have a lot of stuff here. I actually got our favorite bartenders in town. I actually, he's over here every couple months for dinner. I, I, they, they actually put 4 non-alcoholic beverages based on the stuff they tried at my house on the menu. I love that. They're amazing. And so he's got one, his wife has one, and they actually say who it's by. So This is by Lauren, this is by Lance, this is by Andrew, this is by Michael. Michael said, actually, I think he's a manager or something over there. But anyways, it's that little influence because a lot of people don't know how good that stuff actually can be. I am experimenting with a low alcohol cacao right now because I'm a big, like, pure cacao person to replace coffee. And I'm a big— I'm a big tea guy, but I have them working on a low ABV cacao drink that I can, that, that can be warm but isn't like an Irish coffee. 'Cause Irish coffee's getting me fucked up.

Yeah. We, we, we're, we just got some cacao into the store to test it.

Yeah. I, I have a subscription to Ora. I think it's called Ora, Ora Cacao. They source directly from farms and, uh, it's amazing stuff. Whenever somebody comes over, I'll, I'll be like, hey, have you ever had like real pure like cacao? And then I kind of goose it up on my own little way so that they'll, they'll never taste that again unless they come back here.

It's quite a ritual, like down in Mexico, cuz we just a couple weeks ago did a cacao ceremony and they grind their own cacao. You know, it's a, it's a shaman comes. I mean, it's a, it's more of a healing ceremony. 100%.

Yeah. Well, cacao has so many, like if you not milk chocolate, but like 70 to 90% cacao, like real cacao is got so many amazing micro and macronutrients and compounds in it. I forget the— I forget what the main thing that cacao has in it that's amazing for you, or I would screw it up. Like when I tried to say déclaté, do you remember that whole conversation, Rich? I was calling it a raclette or whatever the hell. Emily, Emily, we did a podcast where my, my wife has got me like, I, and I was like, you know, the thing here that's like the— and I kept calling it a raclette, which raclette is like the cheese under the burner.

Yes.

And it was only after the podcast was over that I realized it was décluté, but I had to let that whole segment go. But what, what is that compound in chocolate? Do either of you know that is super, super beneficial?

Oh, I guess I should know.

I don't think—

I mean, dark chocolate is dark.

My wife loves dark chocolate.

I love dark chocolate. Yeah.

Polyphenols. That's what it is.

Yeah, I should know more. But again, like, I'm not a beverage person. I'm not a food scientist. I'm, I'm a brand and retailer. So part of our journey forward is to surround ourselves by these experts, right, that can, can help. And whether it's product development under the Sashay label, white labeling, building, creating our own products, like, we know what customers like and I can kind of see what's happening from a trend perspective and get ahead of it. Versus just like throwing spaghetti against the wall with my own brand.

So that's an interesting comment that you just made. Why? Because I, I, I would love to pivot over to like you running and leading a business and some of the lessons. I mean, you've been at this for 4 years. To say you were early is actually an understatement. Like you, you, you, you predated the early people. What is it, you know, what, what sort of advice do you have for yourself 4 years ago or 3 years ago that that you know now, because the, the last year for you, year and a half, has been a very different trajectory than those first 2, 2 and a half years. Looking back, what do you, what do you kind of wish was or wasn't a stumbling block or was something you knew or had experience with? Because it's, you know, I know when Rich and I were running businesses, it was like every day was a new day. If I could go back and mentor somebody right now, I mean, I, you'd think I was Moses, uh, prescribing tablets. So, But what's that like looking back on your first couple of years, Emily, and kind of getting started? 'Cause you predate the predate people.

Yeah, I mean, I would say the one constant is my belief in myself and in what I was building. Like, that has never wavered, right? But what has changed is my ability to weather the ups and downs. And I'm sure both of you could probably, you know, speak to that. Like, at first it's hard, right? Like, you're gonna have real low lows, you're gonna have really high highs, and like, like the best way through is just, you know, like we were in the New York Times on the COVID of the business section last week.

Nice.

Like my wine and my store. And I can't tell you that I was like really excited. I was like, this is great, but I got this, this, and this to do, you know? So, um, yeah. And then like, or do you know, there'll be some, you know, money crunch or whatever it is. And I'm like, this is not fun. But as long as I continue to move forward Right. And, and then I look at other brands. I listen to a ton of podcasts on like brand founders who went through the whole thing and like the ups and downs and the crazy stuff. Like, I mean, I have all kinds of stories about the things I've been through and I know there's more ahead. It's just more zeros, more challenges, more people. I'm fortunate that I was able to take some of the pressure off because I hired a chief operating officer. In September. We haven't announced it publicly. It's not a secret, though, who it was. An early angel investor now turned operator. And that has taken so much off my plate and given me like the professional, like, balance that I needed because I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a salesperson, a marketing person, right? Like, I didn't— I haven't led teams of hundreds of people or ran, you know, hundreds of stores. So I needed someone who had that experience.

That was a breakthrough for our business when I hired Norm as a COO. Breakthrough because I, I'm a sales guy. I don't wanna run. I wanna go sell. I wanna develop relationships. I wanna be in the field. I mean, that was a big point for us as well.

It's so, so critical too, to just be surrounded by the right people. And that's what we're working on. So, you know, I've said no to some potential investors. I've said no to, being involved in things because it's not about the opportunity. It's about like focus and staying really focused and building a community around me where, I mean, work's hard. It should be fun a little bit, right?

Yeah. I mean, you gotta love what you're doing. I mean, that's the, I think that's the missing link with a lot of folks. If, if, if you're, if you're running or leading a business and, and the Sunday scaries are because you don't like the Monday realities, then you're, you're probably in the wrong business. But I love the comment that you made that like, you know, the big— I want to say maturation, but because we're all grownups, but like the big change in you in the last few years is your ability to weather the ups and downs. And like, it's kind of funny, the New York Times article, it's like, oh, it's good, but like, I got shit to do. And there's an old adage out there. I forget, I forget where it came from, but never let the highs get you too high because there is a bottom that's equally low to the high that you experience. And it's it's actually a trap for young salespeople that get overly excited in closing big deals. And they close a big deal and they make good money on it and their commission payout, their year's taken care of and they go out and they party and there's this amazing jubilance. And the problem is, is that that biorhythm has an equal negative to it, right? So, you know, the highest of highs will also become the lowest of lows. And I think that's probably something I tried to do probably only over the last decade, decade and a half of working was like, I don't get too excited, but I also don't get too upset, right? Like, shit happens. Those are the lessons to remember. You know, it takes a conscious effort to remember all the good times and— but the bad times are right there. So I love that. And I saw the article. I don't have a subscription, but where did I see— did I see— maybe I saw a clipping of it actually somewhere.

Copy of— yeah, it was— I can send you the gift subscription because they have a paywall.

But they do have a paywall.

And ironically, of course, it comes out like the day there's a massive snowstorm and I'm in Minnesota with Target leadership, right? So I, I can't get a copy, but we, we got one. Um, those types of things. And, you know, I, I also— I told my team this story yesterday. It was like we had just closed our pop-up in New York, and I in the store in Charleston and we had just opened it and I was on the floor with my dog Teddy crying because I was like, I don't know where to go from here. What am I going to do? And I got an email that day from Target that we are going to move forward with the associate for Target assortment. And, and that was like the moment where I realized that I can never let myself get that low or get so high, right? Because it just clouds your, your emotions and, and distracts you from what you need to do, which is like run, run the business.

A hundred percent. It's, it is definitely a distraction. And, uh, you know, it's, it was a hard lesson for, for, for me to learn because I am so intense that I, I moved from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows, which is probably why I self-medicated, you know, when I was younger. Like I, I used to do a lot of unsavory things when I was younger because it was just my only way to deal with stuff. But, I'm better now. I'm all grown up a little bit.

I'm 60 this year, brother.

I feel like the older I get, the closer I get to you, though. Is that— is that a thing? Can I say that? Because when I was 45 and you were like 50, that seemed like a big gap. And now that I'm 55 and you're going to be 60, that gap seems pretty slow. I feel like I'm catching up even though I'm really not.

I think you are catching up percentage-wise. For sure you're catching up.

I mean, age is just a number and youth is wasted on the young, you know, 100%.

Mind over matter, Emily. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. And I think that's interesting, Emily. Any questions for Rich and I? I know we've been probing you quite a bit and we did, we did chat about our relationships with alcohol. Rich and I have very different relationships. Mine, I'm still dating her. We only hang out once a week for 15 minutes.

Maybe our early relationships were more similar. How about that?

Rich is gone.

Well, yeah, I know. I think it would just be helpful. You know, I'm in it right in the day to day, and it's not easy, even though from a distance it looks like we're crushing it, right?

Sunshine and rainbows from sunshine and rainbows.

Yep.

You just have a big room of money somewhere. That's what everyone thinks. You just have this big room full of money.

Yeah, it's, it's like, even if I did, it's like it's never enough to go around.

So, yeah, for sure.

But yeah, just advice. Um, you know, if you can think back about when you guys were in it, you know, and, and building your teams and you had your goals for the business, like what got you through? Like any advice?

For me, this is gonna sound probably a little arrogant, but I had an unwavering faith in my abilities. Even if I didn't actually know what the next step was or the next 5 steps was, my path passion for what I do and did. I still do it. And my willingness to literally just got up and take the good and the bad and everything in between and figure it out. And my trust in myself to do that is the only thing that got me through any of it. Like the only moments I wavered were the moments where I stopped believing in myself. And I had a few of them over the years. I remember I was 29 and a half and I almost left Pixel actually. Like I had a moment where 6 months before I turned 30 and I just didn't think I had it and I'd kind of lost that faith and passion in myself. And thank God I had Eric and he came to my house and sat on my porch with me and talked me out of this slump. I— we've actually never told this story and got me back in the office. I literally just left. I said I was sick. I like didn't go in for 2 weeks and I had lost that. I had lost that feeling that no matter what it was, I could get through it and I could do it. And I would say that's probably the one thing, the one lesson I have is that you just have to trust yourself and trust your gut and be willing to do the work, which you've already proved you are, right? I think so many people have all of those things, but they don't want to do the work. Like Emily, how much are you working right now? Legit, don't bullshit me. How many, how many, not how many days, how many hours a week do you think? Sashay is deeply part of your mindset.

80 to 90.

Exactly.

Easily.

Yeah, I agree.

And I mean, Monday at 8:00 AM, I was in our storage unit moving boxes, right? Like, it's not glamorous. Yesterday I did a photo shoot. I threw on a dress, you know, threw on some makeup. Like, I just, you know, there's no time to like, you just get it done.

I agree. I agree. And I think that, You know, again, the only times I felt like, you know, I didn't have it were the times I had somebody like Eric or Shannon, because it's actually happened since we've been together for 6 and a half years, come over the shoulder and say, hey, like, you got this. So I think the other part besides that unflappable sense of self-worth and drive and your willingness is make sure, which I know you've done, and this is for anybody you have to surround yourself with people that know how special you are and believe that there's a magic in you that deserves encouragement every once in a while. Because we can sometimes get caught in our own head and maybe get a little over our skis, which I've also done, and have to be slapped back a little bit. But, you know, I think you've surrounded yourself with amazing people. And I love this COO hire that you've done and the change that that's going to bring. And, you know, You know, you just got to trust these folks, right? So at the end of the day, it's the people around you. And if you have people that don't think that you have that power or that ability or aren't willing to give you a little push on the shoulder or a grab and pull from the wrist, right? Because sometimes you need both. Then I, I, you know, regularly— is going to surprise people— I regularly go through my network of people that I associate with and I shed the negative. I actively have to. You have to because, because you have to.

We're already hard enough on ourselves.

Like, yeah, no kidding.

You don't need someone else telling you you can't do it or whatever it is.

Yeah.

I'm happy for someone to provide constructive feedback.

Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, it's, it, you gotta believe in the bigger vision.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not even a criticism thing. I love criticism. It's, it's just, just, you know, status quo. I'm just not a status quo guy. People would, you know, when I left, they're like, well, why'd you leave? I'm like, well, I've been working 80, 90, 100-hour weeks for 30 years. They're like, shit. And I'm like, the fuck? Have you ever owned something? Like, you ever woke up at 3 AM worried about payroll? Like, you ever woke up at 3 AM worried about a thing that you probably should have stayed up till midnight figuring out, and you have to get up and at 8 o'clock you have to talk to a customer and it isn't ready or it's not where it needs to be? Like, no, it's what we do. It's what we think about. It's what we think about car. It's what we think about on the plane. It's what we think about in Ubers. It's, you know, it's what unfortunately what we think about going to bed. I would have been—

All day long. No, all day, all day, all night. I don't even think you're ever off.

No, you're not. When you're sleeping. But sometimes I dream about my job. Well, something that I did the last few years that has been kind of magical is I have figured out how to clear my head when I lay down. I'm one of those weirdos that can fall asleep in like a minute.

Oh, me too.

I've also— I'm down.

Shannon hates it. Like she hates it because it takes her like an hour. But Rich, what do you, what's your, what's your advice for, or thoughts for Em as far as, you know, a couple of things.

And I, I love listening to you, Emily, listening to you share. I think what kept me going was that BHAG. Like you mentioned the word BHAG. I'm a big BHAG and big Jim Collins fan. Like I still have, I had a poster board. You know, when I first started the business and I came up with my BHAG, it was to be a $50 million, you know, IT Chicago-based IT consulting firm. It wasn't e-commerce, you know, by the time I was 50, you know, and I had like the zero down here and I had the $50 million up here and I was made it like a game board, you know, like Chutes and Ladders. And what was I going to do? But I didn't know, right? So I think that kept me going, like having that thing, you know, and obviously it evolved over time and it changed a little bit. That passion, like I hear it in you obviously, and you had it way earlier than me. You know, when you're a kid, I want to be— I mean, that's unbelievable. You told your, you know, was it your dad? You said?

My dad. Yeah.

Yeah. That's unbelievable. Like I'm going to do— and like, here you are, which is amazing. So I didn't have it that early, but I think having that helps, you know, I could look at that board. I still have that damn board. Right. And that helped to remind me. But I think you both said it too, having the people around because you forget. I think people don't realize, and you were just mentioning it, TJ, until you become a CEO, you don't know what it's like to be a CEO or a founder. I mean, you just don't, you know, because I've had so many people who became CEOs after me come back and kind of be like, thank you for what you did. Like, I didn't know it was that hard. I didn't know it was that lonely. I didn't know the weight, you know, on your shoulders. And so I think, you know, on both sides I had really good people around me. Like, sometimes I needed a kick in the ass, like literally, like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, you know, and those are the usually times where I felt really good, you know, going to highs and lows. Like, sometimes I'm on a high and someone's like, dude, get your head out of out of your ass. Like, you gotta go, it's go time, right? And then there are other times, like, literally I call someone, like, you were sitting, sitting on your floor, like, crying. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. Like, I— and you just kind of go through those lost moments, and you call someone and they're like, dude, you're doing great. And remember, like, remember this, like, you're going here, and look at the impact you're having. So, I mean, you know, whether it's friends, it's, you know, I always had a coach and a mentor. I mean, because there's emotional, personal stuff to work through. I had an advisory board, you know, like it's lonely. Like I coach a lot of entrepreneurs now and it can be really lonely because you can't tell people, like I can't go to my employees and be like, hey, today I don't feel like I know what the fuck I'm doing. You know, so I hope you feel good that you're working for me because I am lost, right? I feel lost that you can't say that, you know, so, you know, we're talking a lot about self-care, like self-care was like critical for me. Like just how could I, you know, I'm a big believer in I have to be in good shape to come to my people, my client, my people are everyone really, my clients, my employees, whoever it is, but I mean, I just see a lot of entrepreneurs, like they're trying to get stuff from their customer cuz they're so hungry. They're try, like trying to get stuff from their employee cuz they're so hungry. I'm like, that's, you can't do that. You can't, you're the leader. You have to like, how do you, whatever you gotta do, workout, sleep, eat, coaches, friends, acupuncture, massage. Like when you come in, it's go time. And you've got to be ready to pour that affirmation on your people, your customers. And that, that's not an easy task, right? So I think, gosh, I had a team to keep me in shape so I could support my team, right? And, and I didn't always know that early, you know, I mean, where I'd wear myself down and I'd work all night and, and you kind of realize like, I, I gotta support this machine because I'm supporting a lot of other people. So it was, you know, I think very important, those people around me. And then also keeping that north star, like you're calling it a BHAG. And I had, I had to have it because I'm such a driven person, right? Like, remember, we're going here. Like, um, and it was so helpful.

I never, never was a BHAG guy. We, we talked about this when we had Eric on the other day. I just go. I just, I only have one gear. I will tell you something I discovered about myself quite a few years ago is that I get seasonally insecure.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah. In the fall, specifically in the fall, like September, October timeframe, like, like pretty much like clockwork. It happens all the time. Right. So it is, it is pretty interesting. I think it's funny, Emily, that you told your dad that you didn't want all these things at 16, but you're actually doing them all right now, just in a very modern way. Like you might not have a partner, but you have partners. You might not have children, but You have staff members and, you know, I think that something that is very controversial, I, I've had people kind of say that they don't like when I say it, you know, you are raising a family. Yeah. You know, you have partners that you rely on and they rely on you and, and you have staff members that, you know, right, wrong, or indifferent, like family members because they are depending on you. And, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of funny to look, uh, 30, 30 years later or, you know, 28 years later and see that you're, you're doing that very thing just in a, a very unique, very modern way.

It's very modern. Yeah, I mean, now we're at the point where I feel like I can have a nanny, right? Like, it's— I can take a day and then, like, I don't have to worry about the business imploding. Um, but that's a new thing.

That's amazing. I feel, I feel like I could take a nanny. I love that.

Yeah, yeah. But again, at the end of the day, you know, the, the train left the station. And here we are. But I'm happy that I did this, right? Even though it's hard and every day I do like, okay, what are the 3 hard things I need to do today? You just do 'em.

Yeah.

Well, there's nothing more fulfilling than creating a vision and executing it and owning it and managing it and, you know, getting into a market that is emerging, right? I mean, you did it, you're, you're doing it, you'll continue to grow. And I, I think it's It's been amazing to watch you. I'm very proud of, of, you know, being able to have a backseat, so to speak. I'm not a driver, but I'm certainly a passenger with you. And, you know, I'm on a parallel journey. You're a producer of things that I'm very interested in, and it's just been really cool to watch, to be honest with you. And the passion that you have for it and the success you have is undeniable. And some would say that being on the floor curled up crying, that on the other side of darkness is a pinhole of light, and it only takes a pinhole to change it. Right. And I think that if more people worked through that and just got to that breakpoint, they'd probably see more success in their careers in general. Right. I think everybody gives up right before that position. Right. So it's been cool. And, uh, I appreciate you coming on today and, and chatting with us and, you know, spending the time. Rich, I always love your stories. What I love, Rich, is over the last 90 minutes that the lighting has gotten so much better on you.

Yeah.

So changed.

You went from like this more jaundiced, like I thought you had like liver disease guy to like now you're all well-lit. I could see all the color in your face.

And I mean, the sun came up literally, right? I mean, obviously Emily, you know, she enlightened us, right? But also the sun came up here in California.

It is 11 o'clock here. So we are well into the day, but this is a wonderful way to spend my Thursday. I needed this. So thank you for the chat.

Thank you.

Yeah. Thanks for supporting the journey and thanks for what you're doing.

Thanks for being a pioneer. We'll, we'll have you back on again because I think great things are coming and, and I love, I love to do these sort of semi-annual check-ins and see what's going on. So it's a pleasure to have you and we appreciate you guys listening to another episode of Tea with Rich and we'll see you on the backside. Thank you.