107: All Things Financing a DSO with CFO, Nathan Chitty of Operation Dental

Welcome to DSO Secrets. I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur in the dental industry. I've had my ups and downs, just like you. There's so much opportunity to be excited about, but so few resources to get answers. From here on DSO Secrets, we get you those answers so you can change the lives you're meant to bless and achieve your personal success.

When I was working as an associate

rat at a school, I never imagined

I could own these many practices with

this amount of support. So thank you.

You have helped build my marketing mind

to a whole new level. You have this natural talent, this unique ability. Hello and welcome to another episode of DSO Secrets. I am Ken Kaufman, your guest host today, filling in for the ever illustrious Emmett Scott. I'm excited about the guests that we have on. Nathan Chitty is joining us. Nathan, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much, Ken. Good to be here.

Awesome. All right, so a little bit about Nathan. He's currently the CFO and Director of Business Development at Operation Dental, which is headquartered in Orlando, Florida. He's got a business degree from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. He has been in the finance world for 43 years. So that means he started at about the age of five. Right, Nathan. Just so we get ages aligned correctly. But he's been involved in debt raises, equity raises, scaling startups and turning them into thriving enterprises and lots of successful exits in this past. The last piece, Nathan was one of five CFOs on a panel at the Spring Elite Intensive meeting that happened last week in Dallas, Texas. And we had a great time jumping into a lot of topics with DSO owners and group practices that are thinking about becoming DSOs. And that was a lot of fun. So, Nathan, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Good to be here.

All right, so here's my starter question. Anytime I have these finance leaders on. So what is it that led you to this DSO industry and what in the world are you still doing here?

So it was a personal connection with the chief operating officer of Operation Dental. I've known him 12 years, worked with him in the past, and when they reached the point where they needed to create an internal accounting finance infrastructure, he reached out to me and I joined him last July. And it's really been quite a good ride so far. And we look over the next three to five years to continue the growth rate that we've had, which is basically 100% a year for the last three years. So 18, 3 million in revenue this year we'll do in the mid-20s. And so that's where we. How I got here.

Yeah, really rapid growth, I'm assuming all acquisition at this point, is that right?

Yes.

Okay, outstanding. So it's been a little while since I've done one of these types of interviews. So just to remind the listeners we're going to get into some get to know you questions so we can learn a little bit deeper about what's happening at Operation Dental and also what expertise and knowledge base on the accounting and finance side exist at Operation Dental. So we'll give you some time there, Nathan, and then we've got some more in depth questions because I really want to pick away at some of your expertise about raising debt and equity. It is one of the great pain points in this industry and you're feeling it, you're experiencing it, and love to hear comparison. But we'll get to that in a second. Then we've got our lightning round at the end, which is kind of fun. And then, and then we'll do a wrap up. So that's, that's our flow here. So why don't you start us off, Tell us about the total number of locations that, that, you know, growth to about 20 million in revenue has you guys at.

So eight. Eight locations. We'll add probably six this year. We have I think 17 practitioners, 17 doctors right now.

Okay, outstanding. And how many states are you in? Just Florida at this point or have you expanded it?

Okay, so just, we're really just in Central Florida, Orlando and Jacksonville. But our growth plan really would go from Jacksonville south of I95 west over to Orlando and Tampa and then down to Sarasota and West Coast. So that's, that's kind of our target market.

Okay, great, thank you. That's a great explanation. And we've talked about your growth strategy at this point is acquisition. Have you guys contemplated de novo or really just focused on the acquisition part?

For now we've got one de novo in process that was in a high growth area west of Orlando. But we are contemplating, I would say a de novo department and I wouldn't be surprised if next year we wouldn't do five. Maybe five.

Okay, outstanding. Okay, so that, so you're not going to be a one trick pony here. You're going to try both tricks, which is great. Nothing wrong with that for sure.

Well, as you know, when you build it yourself as opposed to acquisition, you're building it at maybe a third to a half of the cost of what you would pay if you bought it. And you get to do it just like you want it. And there's disadvantages, negative cash flow, hard to finance, all those kind of things. But what you end up with, de novo practices are in the right spots with the right equipment and all those, all those positives. But we focused on acquisitions. But we realized that in the high growth Florida market, it would be unwise to neglect expansion by de novo.

That's great. I love the way you put that, actually. So let's just talk software and some systems for a minute. Primarily as listeners are participating, we want to encourage networking. Come over to the DSO Secrets Facebook group. Nathan's over there. Chat him up, throw some questions out, especially if he's using some software or if they've implemented some systems or processes that you're trying to figure out or you'd like to network around. So jumping into the software side, walk us through. What are you guys using for practice management?

Open dental. Open dental. And we've, we're in the process of implementing Jarvis, which we went through a selection process and really like what we think it will do for us in terms of providing practice level analytics. And so we're very excited about that from a accounting perspective. We're still using QuickBooks decentralized with an aggregation program called QVENTC that's handling the consolidations.

I'm assuming you have an entity per practice and it's handling all the consolidations.

We got a bunch of entities.

Welcome to dental. That's how we roll.

You know, these things, these things go. But we, you know, we'll go where you are at some point, whether it's NetSuite or, you know, to a more enterprise level. But for the next, you know, for the next year, as long as we can postpone it, we'll stick with the QuickBooks Enterprise.

Great. And then on the practice management software, just jumping back to that for a second. When you do the acquisitions, are you in a hurry to get them converted over or are you letting them stay in their current system if they're, if they're not on open dental? What's your strategy around that?

We're pretty much in a hurry. Yeah, we want to get everybody integrated in the same, in the same thing. And we want to be respectful of people's customs and how they're operating. But we can add the most value when we implement our system. We're very sensitive to the people that are in the, you know, the legacy practices and situations, but we want to get everybody onto open dental.

Okay, that's great. Tell us about. Because one of the challenges of having all these entities and all these Practices and then they're getting spread out, you know, through the state of Florida. Are you doing any type of AP automation or all the invoices coming in paper format and you're paying them out.

What's.

Do you have a software there?

We're automating the accounts payable function through ACH payments. With Bill.com we evaluated doing it through the bank. It seems like the bill.com is a little bit easier for us. So in terms of getting money, we have a centralized billing department that is highly specialized and, and efficient. And it's really a godsend to the acquisitions because there's so many problems that they, you know, they can focus on the customer as opposed to the appeal process and insurance. And that's really.

Yeah, perfect. How about payroll HRAS system? What are you guys using to manage that pdp?

And you know, this is an interesting question because what we've done, the controller that we have, Jonathan, fabulous detail person, and we kind of. I leave those details to him. He's been hired in the last five months, knew the company principles, and so I'll be a little light on my detail other than saying that we are using adp.

Okay, great. Well, and the reality is ADP and Paychex and a lot of these larger ones, they turn into your HRIS system, especially when you're at the size where you're at, you can pull down hours to run FTE reports and anything and everything from there.

Yeah. I haven't been in on the loop of the selection, but we are using an HR outsourcing consulting company to deal with, you know, personnel issues to make sure we're handling, particularly if there's a troublesome situation that we are getting advice on how to handle that, but I'm not sure which one it is.

Well, that makes sense. And with the type of growth that you guys are experiencing, this is a people business. Right. I always say 60 cents of every dollar that leaves our businesses are going into the pocket of employees or to pay for their benefits or to pay some statutory tax associated with them. Right. And so it's managing all of that is a critical element of building a great dso. How about for forecasting and planning? I would imagine you guys are probably Excel primarily, and I'd love to hear your thought process around how you're doing that.

Yes, Excel. What we've got is a single spreadsheet that has a table of contents and up to really up to 60 different worksheets that show various parts. So they're generally aggregations of QuickBooks exports, but they are also other sort of finance analysis. So the goal would be that we have in one place all of our financial analysis and reporting to the bank and to anybody that we, anybody that we talk to. So it's not, you know, sending them 10 spreadsheets and you got to go from here to here. Everything's clickable. There's. And they're indexed, updated on a monthly basis. So that's the backbone of our financial analysis.

Okay, that's great. Helpful to understand. So I want to jump into these more in depth questions and really interested. And you've been out Operation Dental. Remind me for how long?

Since July.

Since July. So getting close to a year, roughly nine, ten months. Walk me through how raising debt and equity works in every other industry compared to the DSO industry. I'd love to hear your compare and contrast and some of the challenges that are here because sometimes maybe I'll just lay this as the preface. Some of our listeners have only been dentists for their whole lives and only been in the dental industry and don't know what this looks like outside of dental. And I think giving some contrast would be helpful.

Well, the financing environment on the one to two practice level is very easy. Banks love those kind of loans. They do very favorable circumstances because of the characteristics of a dental practice. It's called an asset light loan or an asset light company, which means there's not inventory, a lot of accounts receivable compared to the goodwill, et cetera. So there's a blank spot. You can go with a local bank or maybe a regional bank up to maybe 5 million in debt. And then after that you've got to find for banking somebody that's really more specialized as I ends a Citibank. Some of the. Those are the two that really, you know, that really jump out. So that's what we've done is done all of our financing bootstrap internal with bank, you know, but we're, you know, we're reached the point where we have to get other types of financing. Private placement, 506C private placements. We're exploring crowdfunding, which has recently been increased from a 1 million annual to a 5 million. And think of it like taking your company public without having a stock exchange.

So a lot of micro investors potentially, right?

Well, they can be, but not in our case. What we're seeking to do is find a regulatorily compliance method to issue equity to the dentist. So we're using it as part of our acquisition strategy as well as the private placement because our goal is to provide as much value to the dentist financially as we can. And when you cut out intermediaries of that private equity, you're able to pass through more of the, of the economics of the, of the situation. So what you have there, we'll do about 3 million, 3 to 3 to 4 million in EBITDA this year, something like that. And we're in a. So to really get the flexibility with big banking where they really don't care your industry, they're just looking at how much money you make. We really need to be almost 10 million of EBITDA. So it's a struggle from where we are now to get to that 6 to 10 million in EBITDA. And we'll manage it through some creative techniques, we think.

Outstanding. So let me just back up then and ask this, or let's clarify this. So initially, dentists are able to get these loans one off to do acquisitions or to build practices. And then they hit a ceiling, whether it's somewhere around 5 million of total outstanding debt or they. I know the banks also use a global debt coverage ratio around that dentist, whoever that guarantor is. And they're going to look and say, hey, once your debt service gets above a certain percentage of your global income, including the dividends or earnings you're getting from these dental practices, that's the other place where that trigger hits and you kind of hit a dead end and you don't have the ability to get financing. You then have to step up to a whole new level of sophistication of professionalization and of really specialty organizations that focus on doing more. What's called cash flow lending, where they're lending based on EBITDA as opposed to your personal guarantee and putting liens on equipment and those sorts of things. Because again, like you said, there's so much goodwill in dentistry or in dental businesses relative to.

Let me make two points about this.

Yeah, great.

Simplify it. Leverage as defined by people that lend in this industry, the numerator is your bank debt. It's called senior debt. That secures the practice. That's the numerator. The denominator is the ebitda. Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, also called cash flow. So numerator is debt. Senior debt denominator is EBITDA and that figure needs to be 4 or less. In our case, it's about 2, 8, something like that. So that's the first of two measures. The second of the two measures has debt service coverage. The numerator is how much you have in ebitda, the denominator is how much you're paying out for your interest, your principal payments on your debt, your planned capital expenditures, your distributions to your owners. So leverage as defined by debt over EBITDA and debt service coverage is defined by EBITDA divided by what you're paying out. Those are the two metrics. Yeah.

And the reason why they have the two is because the first, the funded debt to EBITDA ratio is great. But you can hide a lot of things from showing up in ebitda. For example, your financing costs. Right. Your interest and even principal payments. You could capitalize things very aggressively, perhaps even too aggressively, to try to keep that out of your EBITDA number. As well as you can be pushing distributions out as opposed to guaranteed payments or paying salaries. You could be pushing those out. Those wouldn't draw EBITDA down. What the second ratio does is it gives the bank comfort that you are keeping enough cash flow in the business and it's not going out to these other avenues that EBITDA misses. It's really. It's the shortfall of using ebitda. Everybody on this show has heard me rant about this before, that EBITDA is a lazy man's shortcut to cash flow. They literally have to create a second ratio to make sure that the cash flow is truly represented correctly. Go ahead

where that comes in the fine print of that. Keep in mind the numerator is ebitda. The denominator are these payments, interest, principal. But there's also payments of unfunded, unfinanced capital expenditures.

Exactly.

Distributions, other. I can try to think those are. Those are really the main ones. And so you have those items. And here's the problem with EBITDA from a standpoint, the big picture problem with ebitda. EBITDA is a variable. It can vary a lot over time. And so you can. If you have a big, if you have a big change in your ebitda, you can get out of compliance with your loan covenants and be having a serious discussion with the bank. The benefit of our industry is though, that the diversification with having all the practices really mitigates a lot of the variability of EBITDA across the enterprise.

Yeah. So I appreciate that. Wonderful perspective. I think for those listening in, this is liquid gold to understand these metrics and how this works so that you can speak intelligently and understand what has to happen in your business. Now let me ask this Nathan and I've got a follow up. Have you guys moved forward with Any outside CPA attestation work, be it via compilation, review or audit.

I'm so glad you're asking that question. Where we are now is audited financial statements. And where we were in 19 was reviewed financial statements. And this, this is an area Ken, where you, you really need to think of the future because the gold standard for financial reporting are audited financial statements where the CPA expresses an unqualified opinion on your balance sheet income statement in cash flow.

And let me insert something here Nathan, because I just want to make sure listeners get this. So there's kind of four levels of financial statements. Level one is internally prepared to be clear banks. Once you get above this 5 million threshold or you can't loan practice by practice or you can't borrow practice by practice anymore. Banks do not trust your internally prepared financial statements. They want to see an outside expert and it requires a professional and an upgrade in accounting. And people ask all the time when should I hire the cfo? When should I hire a VP of finance? When you're getting into this world and needing to bring to get the next level of your financials, this is it. So starting at first is internally prepared financial statements. And by the way, the bank again doesn't trust those much. The next one is a compilation. This is a very basic, lightly touched by CPA where they're putting things together so you can see hey, this is what things look like at a global level. The next level is a reviewed financial statement by CPA and then the last by CP firm and then the last one is an audited financial statement. Could you Nathan, just talk about the value of these three, when and where you might want to use them and like what was your thought process to just leap over everything and go straight to audited financial statement? Well no you didn't because you were reviewed and then you've done the leap to audit.

We did reviewed financial statements as our first step up. And a review financial statement basically has the footnote disclosures that would primarily occur in an audited financial statement. But it limits the verification that takes place of actually tying things to external sources like bank statements and things like that. So here we were in December of last year with our bank and we were contemplating an acquisition rather substantial for us. Four and a half million acquisition. And they wanted us to do a quality of earnings report which enable, which involves hiring an external contractor to go into the target and do their own continuity of earnings and they kind of look for trouble with that. And so it was not timely for us to engage that it was in December. And we said, well, how about if we upgrade to an audited statement from a reviewed statement? Their action we got was, well, there's no way you can do that. You don't have time, because we need this. We need this in January. And I said, I'll talk to our cpa. And our CPA came back and said, we'll deliver you an audited statement by the end of January. And they did. And so.

And the only reason I have to preface this, like, we've got to be careful. It's only because you've got a really strong controller and you in a leadership role that knows and understands this, that you were ready and the CPA got confidence that they could get that done. If you're not organized, there's no way somebody can get that done in a month.

That's a great point. And I would do a real big shout out to cla Larson Allen, because what we did with kind of dividing and conquering before we brought on the controller is we utilized cla Larson Allen in Dallas to do monthly compilation reports. So we had essentially a closing every month with someone looking over our shoulder before I got there and before the controller got there, talking with the operating officer and the owner, hey, this is what we're seeing. And so we. You're exactly right. We couldn't have come close to that if we said, okay, let's just do this. We had that support of cla in order to make that transition, and the CPA firm really stepped up and allowed us to have that unqualified opinion.

Yeah, I mean, it's really an amazing step. And I can tell you, and maybe I want to have you come in on this, Nathan. If you were going to the bank to raise equity right now, which I know, you know, we're all always out in the market looking around and sniffing for what opportunities there are. But that, that aside, if it was your first time raising true senior debt, you're above that 5 million mark, you're going to market. Walk me through the difference between showing up to these specialty banks and saying, hey, we're ready to go. Here's our financial statements. And they say, oh, do you have a review? Do you have an audit? And you say, oh, no, I don't. Here, let me go back and get that. And then I'll come back. Versus if you're dialed up, ready, and you're like, oh, yeah, sure, I'm happy to. That you hand it over to them. Walk me through. In the banker's mind, what's Happening and what type of confidence we're building with their credit department and underwriting department.

Yeah, it's, it's so true. You, when you're able to think ahead, that's, you know, here we are, you know, we're in late April, early May, you know, now's the time to be thinking about, you know, the year end and how you're going to prepare for you because you can't do stuff overnight. So when you show up with, well, or let's say you have an ongoing relationship, you're just giving your banker the best arming arsenal to advocate for your position. Because when you give audited statements, they know that the numbers are there. And so I just really encourage, if people are in a growth mode, four acquisitions headed in that direction of high growth, like a lot of DSOs are, get to the audited statement as soon as you can.

And to get there, you have to invest into the right employees internally and building out the right processes. Let me throw just this one fun horror war story from my past into the mix here. We were actually putting a merger together. This is before I was at Community Dental Partners and we went in and kind of lightly merged and. But the other organization we had audited, the other organization didn't. And so we said, okay, we'll get the, we'll get in there and we'll get things audited. Well, guess what? They were such a mess, we could not get the audit done there. There wasn't enough third party verification reports had been destroyed or thrown away or whatever from the past. There were a lot of different like missteps. And I'll tell you, it's not the only reason, but it is one of the main reasons why that merger got completely unwound it because that organization hadn't invested internally into the right processes, systems and people so that they could be quote, unquote auditable. And so it's an investment that has to be made.

That's why the process that we went through before I got there to get with cla, it was a great bridge between the internal, external capabilities to internal. And it was, you know, we got lucky that we did it that way. Yeah.

And so I think maybe one of the few takeaways to think about here is if you're thinking you're going to get to this place where you're not going to be able to raise debt per practice moving forward based on your own personal credit and guarantee, and you're looking at going to a more senior debt type of a situation, you should be Thinking right now about making the investments that will be required to get to at minimum reviewed, if not go all the way to the audited financial statements. Again, you go to the bank. Even if your internal stuff, even if you know CLA is preparing amazing internal stuff, they do not trust it. Like they do that independent outside party attestation at the reviewers or audit level.

What the monthly did for us with cla is, you know, it kept us from not being aware of problems because they look over things and they challenge you about how you classified stuff. So it just, you're not behind at the end of the year to try to figure out what happened in March or April or July. It's every month, you know, you, you have that, that closing.

That's amazing. I just, I can't stress to the listeners how valuable this advice is that you're getting right now and how much of a difference it can make if you're really looking to grow and scale. This will be a major pain point and a major constraint to growth unless you think about it and listen to all this advice. And of course there are plenty of other folks in the industry that can help fill in some of the gaps. Okay, Nathan, this has been awesome. We've been in a great rhythm around this. Any other areas of advice or pieces of advice you'd offer to groups that are growing and trying to figure out this debt and equity financing thing? Other pieces of advice that you'd share with them as they're contemplating and planning for this?

Well, I can just share what we did, which I think worked out to be a good plan. And that's as follows. We built out an internal executive management team so it wasn't just a one man band. So in our internal executive team we've got the CEO who's the founder, Dennis Peter Kelly and he is the clinical director and does high level business development. We've got Matt Robinson who is very gifted on the ground. Operationally sensitive, works with people, supervises people. Well, we have a marketing guy that is our new patient count would just amaze you because we've had one practice in a year and a half has gone from 1.6 million. They'll do over 3, 2 this year. And practice we bought last year that did 800,000 will do 2 million this year. It's new patients and adding, adding practitioners. But there's sticker shock for the aspirational small dso. Oh, can I afford to, you know, to hire people and you know, it's really a tough thing and then bringing on the controller who really is able to be in touch with the details. And my part is external financing. So that's a pretty heavy management team. But we've managed to keep, you know, 20% on the bottom line for EBITDA margin, which is a good, a good margin. So this is the struggle. When do you commit to building those relationships? Because they don't happen overnight. Our team functions very well. We're positioned for high growth. But, you know, we've been working together closely. We've got our individual responsibilities. That's the tough part for someone making that transition. Can they, you know, can they really recruit the high level management team? That's my, that's my advice if you want to be.

Yeah, I think it's great advice and it's an interesting thing. You can argue the chicken or egg, which came first, the really high performing practices or the management team. That leadership management team, when it's right and when it's functioning properly, it should be driving that very impressive growth and success. Profitability at the practice level that should end up paying for itself over time. That's the formula. But it's hard to make those initial hires because if you go hire a marketing person, it may take them three, six, nine months before they really get into the rhythm and get processes and systems going. And as well preparing them for scale. Because if you're buying five practices or starting five practices, that's a heavy, heavy lift. So anyways, we could probably talk about that for a while. All right, Nathan, we're going to graduate out of this. I appreciate the deep dive on all things debt and equity financing. We didn't get to all things, but we covered a decent amount of it. We're going to jump to our lightning round. What are you currently working on?

So we're currently working on arranging the financing for our next level of growth. And we are heavily involved in discussions with a peg, but also mezzanine financing and private placement. And so the goal is to retain our independence by having less than 15, 20% outside ownership and by utilizing mezzanine financing and private placement. 506C. Private placements Reg. D 506C, which is financing securities with accredited investors that you can advertise. That's the up to 5 and you can raise up to 5 million a year. So that's the big.

It's amazing. I love the fact that you've come into our industry and you're introducing some of these thought processes because there are. These would be considered less traditional than going straight to the PEG or private equity group. But there's some real potential opportunity around it. So I love that you guys are working on this.

Here's the thing to remember, we're not, we're not inventing something new that's not being done. It's being done extensively in, particularly in the real estate industry, which is also a cash flow positive industry. We're just doing it in the DSO world where it's not been done before. Before. Yep.

Brilliant. Brilliant. All right. What are you the most proud of?

You know, the way our management team works together. We, we like each other, we have the same sort of ethics and you know, we, we're not afraid to hold each other accountable and be, be, you know, friends. But yes. Yet firm in our area. So I'd say most proud of the management team and the leadership, particularly of the founder who doesn't have to. He's willing to share and delegate to people that are capable of doing their jobs. That's what I'm most proud of.

It's something special. I've been on some leadership teams that have really struggled to get that cohesion and it's something special when you can get there. All right, favorite sports team?

Well, University of Tennessee Volunteers, but it hadn't been much. I have to go back to 98 national championships.

I got it. Hey, you're loyal. That's what counts here, right? Favorite hobby?

You know, I love to read and I love to be thinking and talking with people about ideas that, what I read. So I would say reading and study is my greatest hobby.

That's awesome. And favorite app that you use on your phone?

You know, I've got a, I've got a Samsung Note, I've got a 10. And I love the interface of the, of the Samsung Android with the pin. The pin, okay. All the time. So as I, you know, I have a lot of apps, probably 100, you know, home entertainment tools, banking, you know, social media. So.

But you like your note taking ability. That's what you're, you think you probably use.

It's the PIN interface of being able to press the, press the.

Oh, for navigation. Got it.

It's really for navigation, not much for note taking. And I've had, I had a note 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, and I'm gonna go to 20 before too long, I'm sure. There you go.

There you go. And favorite spreadsheet function?

You know, I like a blank canvas and my favorite spreadsheet function actually is the organization of a complex series of spreadsheets that are interconnected through linking naming ranges and so I come an artist in that regard. I like to start with a blank canvas and think deeply about, you know, what am I trying.

Is there any other advice that you'd give to emerging groups that are trying to figure out how to get to the next level?

Well, it's basic, but you know, really try to understand where you want to go. You know, set, you know, do you want to have 30 practices or do you want to have five or 10? And try to be realistic about arranging the resources that it'll take to get to this point. But it's a personal decision, like in our case, our CEO is 34 years old. And so you have to take into account what the life goals are of your management team, of your dentists that are part of it. And so I would really do some really serious staring at the wall. Where do I want to be? What kind of organization do I want to provide for my employees? So that's what I would say.

Outstanding. All right, how can listeners, members of this DSO Secrets group, how can they get a hold of you? What are the best ways? Facebook, LinkedIn.

All right, I actually am ready for that. Let's see if I can, let's see if I can do that.

Or are you gonna show a screen?

I am.

Okay, great. So for those just listening in, I'll try to read this off so you can benefit from it.

So here's, I just encourage everyone to be active in building their LinkedIn network and to make their name a custom URL. My name, mine's @LinkedIn. Nathan Chitty. But get rid of those letters and numbers at the end that they assign you. My, I'm got your, my common contacts with you. I have 35 first degree contacts with you. So 35 people that you're connected with first degree and I'm connected with in common. And so I've got my email address on here, Nathan, at Operation Dental. My mobile phone, 407-616-5824. You know we have a. One of the things I've really appreciated about DSO World is the helping nature. Very happy to answer questions or participate in the community.

Outstanding, Nathan. It's been an absolute privilege. I think we went down a really interesting road that is going to be really, really helpful for the listeners. Many, many thanks to all of you for joining today. This is a wrap on all things DSO equity and debt raising with CFO Nathan Chitty. Happy day.

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