116: PPP Loan Update with Ben Hernandez

Welcome to DSO Secrets. I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur in the dental industry. I've had my ups and downs just like you. There's so much opportunity to be excited about but so few resources to get answers. From here on DSO Secrets, we get you those answers so you can change the lives you're meant to bless and achieve your personal success.

When I was working as an associate rat at a school, I never imagined I could own these many practices with this amount of support.

So thank you.

You have helped build my marketing mind

to a whole new level.

You have this natural talent, this unique ability. Happy day to you and welcome to another episode of DSO Secrets. I am Ken Kaufman, your host today, filling in for the ever illustrious Emmett Scott. I'm excited to introduce today's guest. This is actually the second time he's visited the show and we're bringing him back to talk about all things ppp. Ben Hernandez. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Ken, thanks so much for having me as, you know, longtime listener. So second time is certainly a bucket list item. What's the record anyway?

Probably two. You're there. Probably tied with a few others.

Very good.

Awesome. I love that you asked that. So just to remind our listeners. So Ben Hernandez is the founding partner of Skytel Group, which specializes in high level financial management and MA consulting in primarily the dental and med spa spaces, DSO MSO type spaces. Prior to starting Skytail, Ben was a consulting manager at Mike White and Associates, which is now cla. And prior to that he was with HPK Capital, Southwest securities and I banker securities and various analyst roles. Undergrad in finance from Texas A and M& MBA in finance from SMU. And, and obviously based on, you can see his school choices and prior employment choices, lives in the great state of Texas. Ben, again, thanks so much for joining us today.

Thank you, Ken. I'm excited.

All right, so this is the starter question we asked you this last time, but I'm going to ask again because I think some of these answers change over time. What was it that led you into this DSO industry and what in the world are you still doing here?

Yeah, so we'd have to go back to 2015. I was at HVK, the hedge fund you just mentioned. And one of my friends there, his wife actually worked with Mike at MWA at the time, now cla. And she mentioned this exciting opportunity in their advisory department and you know, went over there, kind of took a bit of a career shift. And the reason I did so is, you know, one, it Sounded super exciting. And then two. One of my dreams since I was a child was to found my own company. And as I got older, I never thought I would. So I thought, well, maybe I can try to help my heroes, if you will, small business owners. So went over there and, you know, we had a few different types of clients. One were single solo docs. And I looked there and I didn't know what a CEREC machine was. So I thought, okay, I'm not really sure how I'm going to be helpful here. And then there was the DSO space. And, you know, MWA was already in it, but we were trying to figure out how to get deeper into it. And that just spoke to me and my past. Right. The concepts of building a business, scaling a subsector within healthcare that was fragmented and consolidating, so you kind of know how the book ends. And then, by the way, doctors who are very entrepreneurial, it just became a passion. And as I got to know all the doctors, all the business owners, they just had such dynamic personalities. And that, coupled with everything that's going on in the space, just fell in love with it and thought, let's found Skytail and see if we can help a little more on the, you know, helping them scale and then making sure that they have a really nice exit as well. We thought that that would be a really symbiotic relationship because as we went through it at mwa, you know, all the blood, sweat and tears that you go through with the clients to build it, you want to be sure they get full value. So that's what got me into this space and just completely in love with it.

Nice.

Awesome. Well, grateful for people like you who choose to come and bring that expertise from other industries and perspectives.

So grateful.

Grateful you've chosen to be. Um, we're jumping into PPP loans today. This is going to be the main topic that we're going to touch on. You've definitely been the rounds here with, with a number of your clients. I'm going to guess you guys helped or advised on. Is it a dozen? Is it two dozen? Is it three dozen? Can you kind of get us in the ballpark of. Of the work you've done on this?

Yeah, I think it was something like 44 or 45, you know, kind of PPP rounds or applications, kind of helping them through all the way through forgiveness. So definitely felt we got our PhD in it at the time.

Yeah, of course. So I think we're going to take this and we're going to be looking at your experience and the different types of situations that you've seen apply. And we'll go through it and I'd like to take the first part. Let's talk about round one and how that's kind of all wrapping up round two. We'll talk about that a little bit and then we'll jump some more in depth on some critical PPP things that are going to be lingering in the market for quite a while. Maybe you even well beyond, you know, once forgiveness comes. So walk us through ppp, give us your summary. What did you see amongst all these applications? Were there struggles using the funds properly? What did you see in the forgiveness process? Were there any hiccups or problems that you saw? And ultimately, are you seeing. Basically everything's getting forgiven as long as people are following. Following the rules.

Why don't you.

We'll take a few minutes here and unpack this.

Sure. So, first, I want to say, as I was thinking back to. What was it? April 3rd of 2020, I never thought I would say this about COVID or the PPP process, but there was a bit of nostalgia, if you recall. And you didn't ask me to say this, Ken, but DSO Secrets, the website, was so dynamic at the time. It was a time of uncertainty. It was a time. And then this leads into some of the challenges that we've seen. It was a time of uncertain. Nobody knew what they were doing, including, you know, sba and all of us were trying to do the best we can. And the community was so dynamic. Anytime anyone found any piece of information, you ran over there and you shared and had discussion and tried to unpack it. So just a really fun time. Looking back, although it didn't seem so

at the time, but that Facebook group was hopping. It's still hopping today, but it doesn't have the same sense of urgency as some of these things did, where these massive programs and legislations were rolling out and we were trying to digest them. Yeah, there is some nostalgia there. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. And the closeness. Right. Because none of us were seeing anyone at the time. We were all just, you know, locked down with one another and it provided some sense of community where. Where there was really none to be had in the outside world. But just wanted to throw that out there because I was thinking about this last night and thought, you know, I kind of missed that time in that sick way. But going back to April 3rd, round one, I kind of see it as A and B, the A part being the first 349 billion that were put out there and that went away in about two weeks. And at the times the challenges were if you worked with a big bank, that was a challenge. So go to more your community banks, they'll have cash on hand. And I think it ran out so quickly because you even saw the LA Lakers were getting it and the like. And then whenever the B part of that round, the 320 billion came out, we thought the same thing was going to happen. I remember people were running models like, okay, based on this, we have three weeks at most. So everyone was switching banks or at least adding a bank account to prepare. And what ended up happening is it actually it didn't run out as quickly as we thought. I think it was like a June 30th expiration that got pushed to August 8th. And I bring that up to say there was still money on the sidelines there for quite some time. And I think it was due to maybe some of the publicity some of the large organizations were getting. So by and large, at the end of both of those, our clients all got PPP funding. The challenges there were you were getting the funding, but we didn't really know. There wasn't really guidance that was put out by the SBA at the time. So again, all of us were guessing, all of us were projecting, all of us were calling people that we could to try to prepare. And even that the early guidance that came out like 75% had to be used for payroll that got dropped to 60. The covered period was eight weeks to 24. So when the dust settled, kind of fast forward to today, we're seeing with our clients. I think they've all applied by now for forgiveness. And, and the statistics from the SBA is I think 99% that have applied have actually been forgiven. So I say that to say the forgiveness rate is tremendous right now. If you apply and you do it correctly and usually the banks kind of help guide you a little bit to be sure that it looks okay. You usually get a forgiveness letter pretty quickly. So, you know, for now, the one thing I'll mention is if you were one of the early recipients, you are coming up on that time. If you use the 24 week covered period where it transfers to a loan, it converts to a loan. So you're going to start paying P and I, I think if you project it out sometime in August, if you took it mid april with the 24

week covered and such.

Nice. And with that specifically that if it's not forgiven or you don't have the chance to have it forgiven beyond that point, is that right?

That's correct.

Okay, so round one is we're coming up on a deadline within the next basically month, month and a half, perhaps. Okay, got it. One other piece that's really interesting, I think, that you brought up and you mentioned with the PPP round one, if you could break this out a little bit, you started to talk about the process and I think some people were surprised to find that when they submitted for forgiveness that it was actually a two step process, that first it had to go to their bank, and their bank would do whatever amount of review or underwriting, if you will, to the request, and they would be notified from the bank that they had finished their work. But then it had to go to the SBA for final, for a second layer of approval before forgiveness would fully be achieved. And then the forgiveness was officially granted when the SBA had paid the bank back for the funds. Right. Literally the flow of funds from SBA to bank and that consummated the full forgiveness and the bank being willing to say that anything about that process that you found interesting or that there were hiccups or maybe even some of your clients were frustrated with.

Yeah, I think there were a lot of hiccups early on because our clients

were looking to the banks to provide guidance. And of course the banks, logically and

completely understood, would say to us, look,

we're PPP lenders, we're okay to lend, but we're not putting out the rules that comes from the SBA and we need to wait on them. We don't have any more.

Some of them had a little bit

of guidance or opinions, but you have to hedge a little bit because the SBA changed the rules throughout the process.

So most of it was from the

SBA and not the banks, where the banks were simply telling us to hold steady and wait on SBA guidance. So there was a bit of clunkiness there and I think a bit of frustration from. From the clients, but. But it all made sense, just simply how it works. Yep.

Yeah, got it. Okay, perfect. So let's jump to round two then walk us through, you know, the process of round two, what you're seeing so far, and we can unpack that piece and where forgiveness is all that fun stuff.

Yeah. So round two was around December, announced as part of a larger package, $284 billion were put out in the marketplace and you could actually get a second round of PPP funding. Now, I don't know how many of our listeners would have actually been eligible for that, you had to have a couple of quarters where you were losing over a certain percentage compared to 29, 2019. So most of our clients didn't apply for a second, but there were some who did, and then obviously there were a few that applied for the first time. And then the SBA announced in early May that those funds had completely run out, and PPP as a whole had completely run out, and that was about a total of $800 billion. So I think in this round, we know about it, we studied it, we talked to our clients about it, but I don't think any of them were elig for it.

Okay. Okay. Interesting. And then what are you hearing in terms of the, you know, any challenges with others that are, you know, getting the funds used and deployed properly, and then any challenges around forgiveness, which I think. I think they've just barely started to open up portals to go after forgiveness for round two, from what I'm hearing.

Correct? Yes, we're not hearing any challenges in using the capital. I think it's. It's, for most of, you know, at least where we sit, pretty easy. Most of it can be used on, you know, it can all be used on payroll, and you have the 24 weeks to do it. So before we were doing all sorts of crazy math on how you got to, you know, X percent payroll in eight weeks, and what else could you jam in there from, you know, leases and other things that were also eligible? What most of our clients have chosen to do is simply put it all under payroll and ask for forgiveness. And then the thing that we tell them is be sure that you keep all of the backup and the paperwork, because these things have a long memory. You're dealing with government funds.

Yeah, that's right. The few groups that I know of that successfully brought in round two PPP funds said that they, for the most part, for what they qualified for, they did not struggle getting those dollars spent completely on payroll, running those reports from their payroll providers. They've been pretty. They said it's been fairly easy to pull documentation, and then depending on the size of the loan, some of them don't even require you to submit the documentation again. But to your point, you definitely want to hang on to all of that documentation because we're going to. We're going to get into talking about audits and enforcement here, here in a minute. But before we move on to that, Ben, any. Any other thoughts or considerations or things you want to throw out there to. To the listeners regarding program in general?

Yeah, I mean, I would Say overall, Ken, if you already applied for it, if you already received it, if you use your funds, go ahead and apply for forgiveness. Get it over with, get it done. Keep all of the paperwork that you submit to your bank, because as we said earlier, per what the SBA is putting out there, 99% are being forgiven of those that have applied. And I think the latest stats are like 70% of 2020 PPP loans have already had submitted applications. So go ahead and just take care of that and knock it out because it is being forgiven and it's being forgiven quickly.

Very nice. Okay, so I'm going to do something a little different. Usually we do some of these more in depth questions and then we jump to the lightning round. I'm going to move the lightning round up. These are the seven questions. You know them because you answered them before. And we're really going to test you to see how many of these answers have changed. I'm assuming a few of them have because it's probably been about a year or so. But before I go there, so the listeners know, once we get done with the lightning round, we're going to come back in and we're going to jump into issues that the PPP loans are creating in the mergers and acquisition space right now and some of the challenges that the SBAs and requirements around that. And then we're going to talk about how we're thinking about the auditing and the enforcement of. Because we know there's a chunk of this $800 billion that was set aside for auditing and for enforcement to make sure that people were not trying to defraud the system in any way. So that's where we're going to. But first we're going to hit the lightning round. So, Ben, tell us what you're currently working on.

Yeah, this answer is a little bit different than last time.

I think last time we said we

were working on kind of like if you become part of eos, they give

you the big binder. We're doing something similar for the DSO space. What we're working on now is two big things. One, the administrative side, we just moved offices to downtown Dallas.

But on the more exciting side, you know, one thing that we've uncovered as

we started building that is just, and we heard this from private equity firms and family offices is, hey, do you guys keep all these stats that you have for your groups? Because, you know, they're dental type of statistics. But it's very different in the DSO space. So we've been really focused on Keeping really good statistics and data on what is happening within the DSO space. Everything from M and A down to, you know, the KPI level from an advisory perspective. So, you know, that's something exciting that we're working on and we'll continue to work through.

Yeah, really cool. What are you the most proud of?

This one's the same.

My family, just amazing. Parents, wife, and then my daughter and son.

Thank God for them every single day. So that's what I'm most proud of.

That's awesome. Love that answer. All right, tell us, favorite sports team.

I think this is the same Texas A and M football. And I say, I think I'm hedging here, Ken, because I don't remember whether we were doing well or not in football when we were talking. So it's. They're my favorite when I'm happy and when I'm not. It might be another team, but I think it's Texas A and M football.

Okay. All right, I got it. Go Aggies, right?

That's right.

All right. Favorite hobby?

Reading.

Okay. That was the same last time, too. I remember that. Did I ask you what's on your shelf? Is it business book, Self help? Is it, you know, some type of novel?

It's a big mix. It's a lot of business books. And then I always try to read some random stuff, whether it's like philosophy or physics or novel. I try to have at least one that's random, see if I can learn anything.

Very nice. Good for you. By the way, we're getting some comments here. Josh Cochran is tuning in. I know the two of you know each other well. He comments that he says, look sharp, bro. And he said he looks forward to coming and checking out your new digs. The new office.

Funny, I was just thinking to Josh, I texted him the other day, the Spokane kicker from a high school there committed to Texas A and M, and I had to text him and give him a hard time.

All right, there you go. Okay. I love it. And then he was commenting on the Nomad that I have in my background there. That's. People ask me how I got started in the dental space. And it wasn't the first role, but one of the earlier roles was I was the CFO and president of that business that ultimately sold to the Danaher Group, which is rebranded all that into the cablecare Group. And then Josh drops in, he says, texas A and M. Never heard of them. So we've got some good banter going here. All right, I think, Josh, keep it coming, man. We Also have Jimmy Gardner just chimed in. He said that they got their forgiveness letter on round two yesterday. He said they applied the opening day and they've already got the forgiveness letter. So pretty cool.

Wow, that's fast.

Really fast. All right, so we're midstream here. Favorite hobby was reading. All right, favorite app on your phone. Is this the same or is this one changed?

This one has changed primarily because I keep getting out of shape. So I think last time I said the Wall Street Journal app and I still like it, but now it's the IFIT app. I got a rower to see if maybe I could somewhat get in shape and I'm a little bit obsessed with that app just to see how poorly I'm doing.

That's awesome. I've been thinking about a rower myself. We'll have to talk about that offline. And then, favorite spreadsheet function.

Yeah, lately our analyst team lets me touch spreadsheets less and less as I age. So lately it's a lot of conditional formatting and kind of give quick feedback on KPIs and things like that to be sure that we know how certain things are performing. And then on the investment banking side of things, probably the IRR or XIRR formulas as you kind of project out what a deal may look like.

Oh yeah, that's one I use heavily. Love that one. Okay. Especially on my five year modeling. Right. You can't run an EBITDA model or a cash flow forecast out five years without saying if I apply this discount rate, I wonder what that means.

That's right.

Is it a decent return? Exactly.

All right. We won't get into maybe a future episode coming on IRR and XIRR and why you should use it when you are. Okay, cool. We're going to jump back in now. So we're going to go a little bit deeper on PPP loans. What's happening in the M and A world when an organization has this debt of PPP loans? What are you seeing happen and what's being required out there and what complications is this creating in deal flow right now?

Yeah, so I think the process is pretty well spelled out by now, but I think probably around the summer time a few buyers were scratching their heads alongside us thinking, okay, what's going to happen? Here's a typical process if you. This is if you don't have the forgiveness letter.

Right.

So assuming you don't yet have your forgiveness letter, what we do is we reach out to the banks and different banks have different approaches, but this is pretty middle of the fair way, we have a conversation with the bank of, hey, we're thinking of transacting. We still have PPP in place. What should we do? And in order, one, you have to apply for forgiveness. Number two, the bank will then at that point the buyer usually will require some sort of letter stating, hey, if you can get a letter stating you're free and clear to sell, because there's some language in the documents that have a transfer of ownership provision in there. So just any sort of letter that states you're free to sell, that's two. And then three, we escrow the funds with the bank, right. So we escrow the funds with the bank in case it's not forgiven. And then upon getting that forgiveness letter, that escrow amount is freed up. That way it takes all the risk off the buyer in case you don't get forgiven and things of that nature. But that's pretty rinse and repeat from what we've seen. So, you know, the easiest thing to do is go ahead and apply for forgiveness because it is a little bit of a headache.

Yeah. And the seller, to be clear, then if the seller is thinking, hey, this is the amount of proceeds I'm going to take out when I sell my practice or my dso, what's happening is they're having to leave some of those funds behind in escrow to equal the exact amount of PPP loans that are not forgiven. But once they are forgiven, they're released from escrow and they come. So it's not like an, I guess you could maybe call it an earn out. It's just contingent on. Forgiveness has nothing to do with performance of the business. It's just forgiveness being obtained. And if forgiveness for some reason is not obtained or is never obtained, then ultimately the buyer can close out that escrow account and take those funds to themselves to offset the debt. The extra debt that they ended up with on the books. Is that the right way to talk about is.

Yes. Basically the concept is, look, it's either your debt or your forgiveness. Similar concept when we tell our sellers that they buy the business free of cash and debt. Right. If that escrow turns into cash to you as a seller, then that cash is released to you. If that escrow amount ends up turning into debt, then that's for the buyer. So what you're doing is you're applying that same concept to this. It's net of debt and cash, and it's either cash to you or to the buyer, depending on which. But you're taking all the risk off of Them early on, ourselves sellers were relatively nervous simply because you're, as you said, Ken, if someone's saying, I'm valuing this at 10 million, and you had a million in PPP funds, all of a sudden the million you were counting on is sitting with a third party with your bank, and you don't really know whether it's going to be forgiven or not. But as we see the statistics come in, you should get it back. But go ahead and get rid of the headache by applying now.

Absolutely. And so, and I think it's critical, I want to just so I'm really clear for the listeners, there's three elements of this. Right. Element. One is you have to have applied for forgiveness before you can even close a transaction and put the money in escrow. Right. The second one is the bank that sponsored the PPP loan. You have to get consent from them. Your credit agreement requires consent. And then finally, the third piece is, and this is going to be more out of reach, is then the SBA has to. You have to put the funds, you have to take the amount of the PPP loans, put those in to an escrow account with all the details around it that basically allow the buyer to take those funds. If forgiveness is not achieved, or if they are achieved, they're released to you as the seller. So there's three critical steps, and if you don't do any of those three, there could be some challenges and issues with breaching credit agreements or doing organizing something in. In a way that the SBA is not comfortable with and could be subject to some type of regulatory review.

Exactly. Yeah.

That's a perfect summary.

Okay, great. Let's jump. Now, speaking compliance and regulatory. Now let's talk about this big chunk of money that was set aside from a compliance, auditing and enforcement perspective. What are you hearing? What are you guys thinking about that? And what do we think all of that's going to look like? And are they really just going to go after the big dollar ones because they want to make sure that, you know, they really qualify it as small businesses? Or what are, what are you hearing about all this now?

Yeah, so what we're hearing is one, the audits have already started to. Anything that's 2 million or more is going to be audited. So if you got 2 million or more, just plan on being audited and get all your ducks in a row. If it's under 2 million, then they're going to just pick and choose randomly. It's unclear still how deep they'll go into that whether maybe one or two is going to be heavier and anything under 500 will be lower. That's probably what will happen. And there are a few reasons for that. There's a clause in there about economic uncertainty that you had to certify and state that, yes, due to economic uncertainty, my business is at risk, and the 2 million and up ones are being scrutinized for that, to be sure that that actually happened. And then the lower amounts, I think the SBA uses the language of good faith in there somewhere. Like, in good faith, you were under economic uncertainty during this time, so they'll be a little more lenient on that. So 2 million and up. Definitely below 2 million. Still a bit unclear, however, what I would say. They have six years at this point in time to do it. So for six years, they could audit you. And there's a bit of a history lesson here. One always keep in mind, this is government money. Very, very different if you do something naughty and wrong. Very, very different types of charges and penalties.

Mike, you're talking. Yeah. When you mess with government money, it's potentially jail time as opposed to maybe a slap on the wrist with something that's more commercially driven.

Right, exactly.

So I would say always keep that in mind and just go ahead and save your record somewhere, just in case. And then, number two, we have a bit of history here. When we had the bailouts in 06 07, those continued going even past the eligibility of the six years that we gave as an example. So I would just be sure to always be aware that you could be audited and be sure that you keep your records. I think that most in our industry, especially your listener base, I think will be okay. Certainly. I mean, we had shutdowns, we had all sorts of economic uncertainty. So I think as long as there's tight record keeping, I think we should be fine. They'll be looking at the way you calculated it to be sure it's done correctly as well.

And are we at a place where auditors are coming on site, or is all of this being done basically digitally and through phone?

They are going on site. So the SBA has a team where they're going on site, and I think they're also being provided help by the IRS and other regulatory agencies within the government. So they are starting to go on site now. Whether they'll do that for the smaller loans, I don't know. I'm guessing probably not, but they are for the large ones. And, you know, again, they've already started, so we've seen Some of those stories already interesting.

Well, there you go guys. You heard it here on the DSO Secrets podcast. Be ready. If it's over 2 million, they're coming. If it's under, they're still coming for some of you based on whatever. However they do their random sampling and keep those records for more than six years, it sounds like. So that we're ready for that. So, Ben, it's been fantastic having you. Is there any other advice or things that you're thinking about that you want to pass along? Just you've got this opportunity to share some wisdom with these emerging groups, DSOs, leaders of them, clinical leaders, business leaders in them. Any other advice you want to pass along? It could be PPP related or maybe even just in general as you see what's happening in the marketplace.

Yeah, I think PPP related.

If you do work with a CPA wealth advisor, anyone like that, lean on them or people like us, go ahead and lean on them. Make sure that they advise you on what they think that you ought to do just so you're covered.

And then on the other side of

the coin, you know, we talked about the M and A activity and things like that. This is just a broad comment. Things like applying for forgiveness during a deal, it slows down a deal. So go ahead and take care of that earlier because slowing down any sort of deal is rarely a good thing for a seller. You want it to run smoothly, you want it to to keep going and keep the wheels on the rail. And I would just say that about your business in general is we always like to tell our clients that one of our jobs is to always have them deal ready.

And that doesn't mean that we advocate.

Call us tomorrow and tell us you're going to market. That's usually a no no. But what that means is go ahead and look at your business and think

about what would I as a buyer look at and knock me for.

And that's usually your answer as to what you can tighten within your business.

And I know it happens with our

company and usually with our clients. Usually what you'll find is your least favorite things are probably the things that you need to work on. But the beauty of what you're doing and scaling your organization and building a team is you can build a team for that and you can let the professionals take the wheel. So I think that curtails nicely with some of the PPP forgiveness we talked about during an M and A process.

That's right. I love that advice and I'm going to layer two Things on number one is we have a saying inside our organization which is time kills all deals. Doesn't matter how great or how sweet or how amazing the deal is for all parties involved. The longer you stretch it out, the more likely it is going to fall through. It's just the nature of the beast with deal flow. The second one that you brought up is really fascinating to me and it's that it's run the business as if you were going to sell it tomorrow and get yourself organized and get your doctor to be that type of business. The most amazing thing is when you do those things, you actually end up with a more amazing business and you may end up never selling it because you like running it too much and it's producing a great income and all of those sorts of things on the DSO space, that's even if it's producing a great income, if somebody's going to pay you 12 times earnings, they can generally talk you out of selling it. But valuations are going to be better. Everything's better if it's a business that you love running and it's cash flowing really well and everything that goes with it. So really appreciate all that advice. So Ben, just kind of wrapping up here if our listeners want to get in touch with you. I know that you're part of the DSO Secrets Facebook group, an active participant in fact, and really appreciate that. So you can jump over there and tag Ben if you've got some questions or comments. Any other ways they can reach out to you?

Ben?

Yes. And yeah, thanks for having us as part of that group. It's always, you know, an honor to speak with you and your listeners. But yes, my email is Ben Hernandez. H E R N A n d e zydailgroup.com s k y t a l e group.com so if you have any questions or comments, we'd love to chat.

Awesome. Ben, cannot thank you enough for joining. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Ken. Thank you so much for the time. This was so much fun. Great to see you as always.

Yeah, likewise. Really, really appreciate the dialogue and the back and forth and all the value you added today. We talked through some great things. Round one, PPP round two, escrowing, PPP loans and SBA requirements and really the three requirements that you talked about and then up some great knowledge and wisdom on how to build a great organization on us. So this is a wrap on all things PPP Loans with Ben Hernandez. Happy day.

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