159: Amazing Women Leaders in Group Dentistry

Welcome to DSO Secrets. I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur in the dental industry. I've had my ups and downs just like you. There's so much opportunity to be excited about but so few resources to get answers. From here on DSO Secrets, we get you those answers so you can change the lives you're meant to bless and achieve your personal success. When I was working as an associate

right out of school, I never imagined

I could own these many practices with

this amount of support. So thank you. You have helped build my marketing mind to a whole new level. You have this natural talent, this unique ability. Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of DSO Secrets. I am the guest host today filling in for the amazing Emmett Scott. Today's episode is all about girl power and female empowerment. I am joined today by with some of the most amazing women leaders that I know and I'm so excited to introduce them to you today. We're going to talk about all sorts of things about the benefits of having women in ownership and leadership positions. We're probably going to talk about the difference between how a woman leads to maybe how a man leads. We're going to talk about mom guilt imposter syndrome and all sorts of things. And so pull up a chair. We are so excited to have you today our guest. I'm going to have them introduce themselves to you, tell you a little bit about who they are, where they're located and a little bit about their dental group. And so Amber, do you mind kicking us off?

Absolutely. So my name is Amber Nish. I am the chief marketing officer for Community Dental Partners. Have been there for about 10 years. We are as probably known as Emma's company and so we are have about 90 practices at this point. I'm also beginning to dabble into the fractional CMO role to help other groups and other practices to have the leadership that they need to solve their patient acquisition and retention problems. So that's where we're at today.

Thank you Amber.

Amy hi, I'm Amy Lee. I am the director of Clinical operations at Birch Dental. We're located in Northern Illinois. We have eight general offices, three Perio offices and one Peto and pretty much I'm been there since 2016 slowly creating the mentor programs. I sit on the leadership team and also doing training with also LMSs and presentations and hands on and just making sure that our clinical standard of care is being in every single office and helping our patients say yes to that care. I've been a dental hygienist since 2005. So dental hygiene has always been my passion and always will be.

Thanks so much Amy. Whitney.

Hi, my name is Whitney Weiner. I'm the CEO and founder of Whole Dental Wellness in the Metro Detroit area. We are a growing group practice absolutely obsessed with impact to members of our team, patients in the communities we serve professionally. I'm a periodontist. I've been in private practice for about a decade and most proud of my role as mom of three beautiful boys and wonderful husbands. So you know, very exciting to be a part of this group. I'm a secret super fan of DSO Secret. So fun fact there. Thank you Josie.

Oh, so glad to have you. Jenny.

My name is Jenny Britt and I'm the director of operations for Sound Dental Partners. I've been with the practices since 2013. We started at one where now we grew to eight. I'm a mom of three. I was a dental hygienist through 2013 which I absolutely loved. I was, I was a dork and my job is to take good care of people. That's what I do. Whether it's the doctor, owner, my team members so that they can serve the patients that taking really good care of people.

Thanks so much.

And Jill, My name is Jill Jenkins. I am the CEO and owner of Jenkins Dentistry for Kids. I'm a pediatric dentist. We have two locations. There are four pediatric dentists that are practicing in my practice. I was in a partnership for about 15 years and about two years ago decided to do something that aligned better with myself and my values. So we have a very values based business that really everything that we do goes around our values of joy, abundance and authentic connection and just trying to make that sustainable for my team, our patients and our community.

Thank you so much. And for those who don't know me, I am Josie Sewell. I'm a dental hygienist by training. I've been in various different seats as an executive leader in a dental group. One is also a coo. Before we sold it it was a lot of fun to do and now I'm a partner here at the DEO and a co creator of DEO map which is a dental specific operating system of which I am super excited to have some of these guests on here as people that either utilize MAP or or work with me. And so it's really fun just to get to hang out with my friends and talk about things that are important to the industry. So let's start with. I know everybody here is a mom now. Amber, you said you have Five children, is that correct?

I do have five kiddos. I'm a single mom full time. Two of my children are adults and have grown and left the house. And three teenagers at home keeping me super busy.

What I love about following you on social, Amber, is how involved you are with your kids, even though you have this, like, incredible career. And something that I, excuse me, have really appreciated is you call out and talk about how it takes a village to raise your family and to take care of your family. And I think that that is true in raising kids, but that is also true in building a dental group or a business. Is it takes a village to get everything done.

Yeah, for sure. I think it's important to know where people's strengths are and to rely on each other, both in my mom village, but also in my work village. I mean, everything takes a team. No individual players can be as successful as we are when we're all together and kind of rowing towards the same goal together. And that helps me with rides as much as it helps me with decision making in an executive board meeting.

Absolutely. So let's. I want us, as we take each question, if it's possible or it's relevant to the question, to almost talk about how do I handle this in a professional setting? And then almost how do I handle it in a personal setting, like what you just talked about, Amber. And so one of the things that you said is, like, I have to have people around me with other strengths. Right. And some people refer to that as a unique ability team. And so what am I really, really good at, and how do I balance that with other people that are good at other things? So let's talk about for a minute. What are some of the strengths that you guys see that women have in being a leader? That's, like, more innate to women, and anybody can jump in.

I think one thing that we are really good at is socializing. You can call it networking or, you know, trying to find other women that are in, like, situations. And then we start, you know, helping each other out, you know, car pools. I think Amber was just talking about trying to find rides and stuff. But, you know, like, we're always just trying to find a way to socialize and connect and be able to help each other. You know, whether it's helping, tutoring a child, getting them to dance practice, recording. I was just at my daughter's, one of her dance practices, and another parent was recording another person's child and sending it to them because they couldn't be there.

I love that. What other Strengths do you guys see that are innate to women?

I think a big part of it, Josie, is the compassion that we bring to the leadership role. So there's so much empathy and compassion, and that maternal instinct definitely translates. And I totally agree. It takes a tribe everywhere and just to show up. And also the humility and vulnerability of knowing what your blind spots are. You know, we joke a lot. Ego is not your amigo. I think a lot of female leaders own that, and that's really wonderful and can bring that. And when you show up with that sense of humility and your team feels that it's okay to fail, and we actually celebrate failure because we fail forward, and we're able to discuss that openly without it being a negative impact to character. That's a really unique thing that we bring.

I love that, agree with that so, so much. It's the, I think what people deem soft skills that I think are vitally important to be able to operationalize those things. And I'll be honest, I'll put a plug into the DEO for this. You know, the Head, Heart, hands tool that we utilize allows me to operationalize soft skills and quantify something that seems to be, you know, traditionally unquantifiable, and it opens up those conversations. It allows me to be vulnerable as an owner, and it allows the employees and encourages them to be vulnerable and have those conversations. So I do believe that that's more unique to. To a feminine way of leadership and a masculine leadership.

And, Jill, I think you nailed it too. It's like the. The map and the fit finder and the 5Ps and all of that stuff is it makes things less subjective. It objectifies them, right? So now we have analytics and a way to score in a way that doesn't feel so harsh. I don't know about you guys, but for me, sometimes things just feel so rigid and harsh. I want to give everyone a big hug and, like, shoot care of our hearts around. And so to be able to take those tools and put them into an operations manual for the company has been really amazing. And it allows us to take our empathy and our warmth of being a mom and, you know, also being a boss and have a scorecard for that. So that's been really awesome. So I agree totally.

Thank you guys so much for sharing. So for listeners who may be wondering, like, what is this they're talking about? Within the operating system, we have something called a fit filter, and that allows you to look at team members and assess, are they the right people? Meaning they live your Core values. And then are they in the right seats? And so it allows us to be, you know, kind of not make this too emotional or too difficult difficult. Be more objective in evaluating team members and open up to have really great conversations. So I love that you pointed that out, Whitney, that it's like, it takes me, who's very positive and warm, and I love my people, and I want everybody to succeed. And it gives me a structure or a format to help make some of those decisions and know when I need to lean in.

Well, Josie, I think you nail it the most when you say no margin, no mission. And I, like, have that literally written down on my desk right now because I have to look at that and say, it is okay to make money. It is okay. And that allows us to fulfill our mission. So it all goes hand in hand.

Absolutely. Has anybody else struggled with that that they're willing to share, maybe letting their big heart keep them from being profitable in their business?

You guys strengthen numbers. I'm there all day. 2023 is going to be our year. We're building awesome things and leading with the heart and the head. It's important to marry the two. I found.

I do think it. It probably is a little bit more of a unique challenge for female owners or female business leaders in general, to want to have that sustainability of emotional intelligence and the flexibility in the understanding of their female employees and then balance that with compassion and empathy and profit. I think a lot of times, at least for me, and I think the people on this panel probably would agree with, is we start with culture and we start with people, and then we profit is an outcome of those things rather than looking at profit as the driver for everything. And I think that is definitely a unique challenge that I work through out

of experience that I had, as I was actually the call center director. I had just stepped into that role, and my empathy was actually a little bit of weakness. I had a team member that was a manager that was going through a divorce, and I was a single mom, so I just wanted to cater and make life really easy for her in the moment. And I actually remember Jodi Evans was my leader at the time, my boss, and. And she said, the best thing you can do for her is actually give her the ability to provide really well for herself and her family. So a little bit along that same lines of, like, you, you need to be making money to have a mission. Right. And so helping women build their careers and not cutting corners for them and softening things and sort of cutting and enabling them because of a perceived difficult situation. She's like, I didn't do that with you. And I'm, you know, one way to empower women is to actually not be so soft and allow them to grow and take care of their family. Because that's a strong. That was a strong leadership lesson for me as I was trying to maybe be overly empathetic. And it kind of, it could have hurt her and the business at the same time if I had followed that course of action.

Thank you for sharing. I think that's something we all learn along the way is, you know, that mama hen, like, kind of take them under our wings and make everything okay versus no, you take the training wheels off and you're going to fall down a couple of times, but eventually you're going to get to ride this bike on your own and develop some of that, some of that confidence. So that brings us into something that's interesting. We were, as we were prepping for this call, one of the things that we talked about is there, there are not enough women in executive positions, right? There are not enough female owners. And it's still silly that it's primarily men in these positions. And so we had some really good convers conversations about what holds women back. And I actually want to talk about three things that hold women back. One, maybe it is a male counterpart. Two, it's probably other women as well. And then number three, how do we hold ourselves back? And so I would love to take each one of those. How have you. Do you have an experience as a woman leader that you have struggled being like the only woman in the room or the minority or what type of struggles do you think you had specific to being female? And it's more like. More particular where. Like, let's talk about the male counterpart first. I would love to hear from the doctors on this one a little. Some of the experiences that I've heard women go through in dental school, like, is it as bad as what I hear it is?

Oh, Jill, I don't know. What do you think?

I struggle with this because I really have had generally good experiences, or else it's just my lens that I look more internal than external. So sometimes I think it's more just knowing not how to handle a woman at the table, not having a preconceived bias or anything like that. But I can think of a position of leadership in organized dentistry and so outside of practice ownership, but. And being on a board with one of the few women on the board, I, I think there's. Is she Going to be rude? Is she gonna make mess up our lunches?

Is she.

Our dinner's not going to be as much fun. And once you break the ice and tell a joke and you know, and you're willing to have fun, then I've had easier success maybe in, in certain areas because I'm a female than the other wife. So that's my experience.

I think that's awesome. Jill and I would kind of synergize on that and say both. I think especially being a woman who went into surgery, that was interesting because the feedback is like, how are you going to be a mom? Wait, don't you want to have kids? Like, what are you going to do? Are you really prioritizing your career? And then like, Jill, I think you're like, oh, yeah, but I think I can do it all. Which is funny in and of itself as a statement. Right. But you know, we look at things maybe with rose colored glasses or I would say I will. But so much of it is like attitude of gratitude and moving through it. So, yeah, it is interesting when you walk into a meeting and it's all doctors and there's three women there. That's, that's changing, you know, And I think that there's a lot of strength in that too. And it's, it's fun sometimes. I don't know, Joe, if you feel this, but being the only female at a doctor table, like when it's a brainstorming mastermind and people are looking to you and they're like, how do I relate to my team members? What really do you want? What, what are you talking about? Equity with the people in your company and things like that. So I do think that there's a superpower there and that maybe still being minority, we have a lot of weight in that conversation because of that.

I absolutely agree with that.

That's great. Other ladies have something to chime in

here, just echoing what Whitney and Jill had said. I mean, it some, sometimes I actually find that it's, it's very beneficial, like, because they really want my opinion. At first they're, you know, sometimes I have to kind of rip off that band aid and, and they have to hear me kind of come out strong or come on strong just a little bit. But then it kind of comes down to it. They want to know, like, what, what makes us check, like, how do they show somebody grace, you know, those kind of things. And so it gives, it gives us the ability to educate them, to teach them and to share with them. So I've Seen that from a place of a lot of value.

That's great. You know, I really have also been very fortunate in my career. Now, there are some definite instances that I look back and I realize, like, hey, I, like, I didn't want to believe that maybe there was an issue because I was a woman, but when I look back, maybe there was. So, for example, I've had a job in the past that we were negotiating and they told me, nope, this is like the top tier salary. This is all you're going to get. This is, you know, this is the most that we can do. But when they advertise for my position, the base salary was $25,000 more than what they said that they could pay me. So I've had, like, little instances like that. Or at one point we were. I was trying to hire somebody and he did not want to report to me, and we had to change our org structure. Org structure because I think that he just didn't want to report to a woman. And then I also had sometimes this little thing when I would be with a group of doctors, being the only hygienist that. That it was like, is it because I'm a. Is it the one thing? Or what is it? But I have found I have been very, very lucky that I've been surrounded by men who I think value my voice and value what I have to say and want to learn from me or grow with me. So in a lot of ways, I've been very, very lucky. I know there are a lot of women who are not, but nobody has ever tried to take advantage of me in, like, really negative, awful ways that we know some women have experienced in the corporate world, and I count my blessings for that. But I do think that I had to adapt and I had to learn some things so that I could own my seat at the table. And so, like, one of those things that I had to get much better at was how I communicated. I needed to be more direct. I needed to be more, like, succinct or specific. They didn't want a ton of backstory. They didn't want who said why. It was like, just, you know, get to the issue. And I think I had to be even more analytical or data driven and how I was presenting things. So normally I'm like, well, I just know because I like emotional intelligence, tells me that she's not happy in this and this. And. And I had to be more data driven. And so anything that you guys would add, how you have adapted to own your seat at the Table.

I think what you were talking about before being a dental hygienist and then being in a room full of doctors and. And most of the time, need. I've always worked with male doctors, and I could be giving them research. I could be telling them directly. And one time I had a doctor and I was talking about sealants. I'm very passionate about preventive care, and I'm giving all my data and research and telling them about adult sealants. And the new hire was like, well, I'm not too sure I really agree with adult sealants. It doesn't seem like there's too often a time that you actually. They would actually qualify for them. And then I said. And I had to bring up, you know, the male. My Dr. Burch, who is the owner and. And his colleague and dentist. And I said, well, that's a great conversation for you to have with Dr. Birch, if you'd ever like to have that in a conversation. And he said, well, if Dr. Birch also agrees with that, then yeah, yeah, I probably agree with you now.

And I.

Because he said it versus what I just said. It's just interesting where those moments do happen. They don't happen that often, though, honestly. But there is going to be. There's gonna be time. Like, is it because I'm a female? Am I be. Or am I a dental hygienist? You know, what. What is it for real?

Thank you for sharing, Amy. I've had that, too. And sometimes it's like, when I have a great relationship, that's where it is. Like, if I have the relationship, I know it's pretty easy to talk to the dentist, but sometimes if it. If it was. If it was. I didn't have a good relationship or with somebody new or with something really specific to that dentist, I might just leverage and be like, hey, Eric, I need you to go have this conversation. And these are the three bullet points I need you to hit. And because it comes from a dentist, it feels different, and I respect that. You know, I know that sometimes only a dentist can say things to a dentist, but for the most part, Jenny, have you ever experienced any of that? I know you're a hygienist, but in a leadership role.

Yeah, we've. We've had some of that. You know, the. The difference in us as far as with our doctors, most of our doctors are female, so they are just extreme. Extremely receptive. Extremely receptive. There have been a few times that I'm like, Dr. Harvey, I really need you to drive this home. You know, you're going to have to really take this and drive this home. Like, I can lead them to water, but you're going to have. You're the one that's going to get them there. So there, there's been some of that. But I will tell you that they, you know, especially our. The group of women that we have, they're very respectful, they're very. They appreciate my insight, my experience. And I look at it, I kind of look at it from both sides, and, and so they really, really seem to respect that. So, so not a big issue, but there are times I have to get him to, you know, he's got to come in with that, that DMD and, And. And drive that home.

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that what I'm also recognizing and talking about this is one of the strengths that probably many women have is that the ability to lead through somebody else. Right. And so, like, it may not be me that has to have the credit or show that I had the idea, but if I can lead through others and influence, then as long as I know eventually we're going to hit those results, I don't have to be the one who's the mouthpiece. Right. And I think that I've seen a lot of women do very, very well with that is the ability to lead through others.

I agree with you, Josie. You know, having a mentor program in each department, I have learned that not, you know, if you're a mentor, you might not be the mentor for that person, and your job could be to find them a better mentor that might fit their needs. And for me, I. There's so many times where I went to a different mentor, and I said, you know, she's just not responding the way that I think she could respond. If you were mentoring her, could you mentor her? Could you take on this task? And, and it's crazy because once you realize that maybe you're not the mentor for them or the coach, and then you give them someone else, then they get to succeed and blossom. And it's. It's fun to. Fun to watch, even though it's not you that.

That did it.

Sure. Absolutely. Well, so let's talk for a minute. One of the things that we did want to share was that sometimes it's actually not our male counterparts that we struggle with, but it's other women. So, you know, you guys even said, actually, I kind of like it when I'm the only woman in the room. And I, you know, I can bring the energy and I can have fun and I can, you know, kind of hang with the guys, but sometimes it becomes a little bit more complicated when it's women working with other women. So let's talk about that for a minute. Anybody have an idea or an experience they want to jump in and share right away?

Even for myself, Josie, as like, through my professional growth, like, through the years, it was. I had to learn how to celebrate others and how to raise others up. That was difficult. You know, that was difficult with, you know, just like, talking about the idea and kind of letting somebody else kind of deliver. And it's like, oh, wow. But I did that. I built that, you know, and letting somebody else kind of have the credit for it. And I think it kind of. It kind of goes into that. You just have to get to a place of being confident in yourself and actually want to be able to raise them up around you. And that was a place of learning for me years ago. You know, I can say five or six years ago, I

felt a little

bit more like maybe competition than what it did. Wanting them to be as strong as I am. Like, I'm. No, I am no stronger than the folks that I surround myself by. And anyway, that. That's been huge for me, especially the last couple of years, is to really, really raise up the women that are around me. Of course, that's what I'm surrounded with by most of the time. And that was a barrier that I struggle with personally. And now that I've kind of broke through that, like, it's amazing. And I hear different ones, you know, talk about, how did she get into leadership? And this is with some of the folks that we kind of raised up last year. And it's, well, why didn't I get picture or why didn't I get chosen? So there is a lot more jealousy. And I think that just adds a whole nother dynamic to. To women and leadership. But, yeah, it's been. It's a humbling moment, and. And it's a great. It's a great place to be in when you can watch them succeed. You know, you give them the tools and. And they just ran and. And they grew. So it's a whole different perception when you get there.

It makes me think, you hear a lot when we go to dental conferences, that there's really not a lot of competition for dental because half of the country isn't even using their dental benefits. So, like, let's all go and learn and grow together. There's room together. It's the same with women in leadership. It's not Competition, because there's so much opportunity out there that we can actually all take a seat at the table and still not fill all the chairs, right? And so just the opportunity to look at that and not see it as competition. But the more we link arms and the more we celebrate each other and shine the lights of each other and grow ourselves together, there is room at the table because there is such a deficit there. It's not like there are so many women sitting in leadership positions that we have to claw our way to the top. So really supporting each other and helping each other gets us all there in what is going to be the equalized seats at the table eventually, I think.

I love that, Amber. You know, I have had some really interesting situations with this. And in fact, like, Eric knows it's a little bit of a sore spot for me, so sometimes he'll tease me. He's like, oh, Josie's here. So now everybody's going to quit, right? And so what happened was when I started working at the dental group, I was an outsider brought in where they had, like, raised a bunch of people up, and I was an outsider brought in. My relationships were different. I, you know, it was like just a different space of life and so had some issues where I think my presence really upset some people. And that was really, really hard for me because I was like, I don't want anybody to not like me, and I don't want anybody to be upset. But I knew that my presence did that. Now I've come to own the fact that when I work on a team, I. I don't know what I do consciously or subconsciously, but I have to be very careful to not be, like, too much too soon. And I have to, like, you know, build relationships and things like that. But I really appreciate Alyssa Keefer. And I went through some really, like, ups and downs in our relationship. We were, you know, partners and friends and colleagues and. And she made a comment once and she was like, well, I mean, I had to go to therapy to be your friend. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like, it just really broke my heart. She said, no, Josie, it's not because of you. It was because of me. It was because I had to deal with, like, my own confidence and my own self work. And so sometimes, like, it is just hard when we mix women with women. And it can be hard. But you know what? Like you said, Amber, there's not, like, because another woman is successful doesn't mean that there's less pie, right? That there's still Incredible opportunity for women and it is a lot. Jenny, I really appreciate you calling out because I know I had to do that myself. Like, like, no, I'm going to support and I'm going to be a cheerleader and I'm going to celebrate the gifts of others. And yet I will still say that sometimes I have to mute social media or I have to get off of social media because I get too much into comparison or that trap of like, well, they've got it together. Why don't I have it together? So I think that those are all internal things that we all have to work on ourselves.

And Josie, I love that your friend said that to you because for me it all comes back to self love.

Right?

We need to love ourselves first. And self love isn't selfish, it's foundational. And when you're confident in yourself and you really have that, then the tribe around you is these amazing people, you know, and so, so much of that is who we. In my opinion, like, I'm a huge believer with the sum of the five people we surround ourselves with and I'm so thankful for those people. And if we're being honest, I mean, women are beautiful and they can be venomous too. And that jealousy is so real. And social media just life and filters just twists it even more. And then you get into the mom guilt and the working mom and all the different things and it's so important at least for me to just synergize on. Okay, I'm so thankful. Self love all of this, thankful for the tribe and get back to that. So I love that your friend could tell you that that's awesome. And she was trying to be more like you.

I love it. She's. She's an incredible person. You know, one of the things my daughter and I were talking about is, you know, she was talking about these girls in her class that she doesn't like or boys, you know, that she really struggles with. And I said, you know, Lila, one of the things I want you to think about is sometimes when we don't like somebody, there's actually, it has more to do with us. There's something that we see in that person that reminds us of something we don't like about ourselves and we start to like reject or kind of fight against that. And she's 12, almost 13. I didn't think she was actually listening, but it was probably a couple months ago. She said, you know, mom, I was sitting in class looking around at those people I thought I didn't like and I realized oh, that's because I probably don't like that about myself or, oh, that's probably because I see myself and I do that and I don't really like it when I do that. And so it was just really kind of this incredible conversation that we got to have that let's talk about what mom goes through on a professional level. And then how can we translate that to, to middle school?

You know, another point for the women sometimes being the downfall. So on Facebook, there was a private dental hygiene group and a dental hygienist put on there that she's two years out, she works four to five days a week, and she's exhausted and she's burned out and she wanted advice and all these well meaning dental hygienists women were giving her advice and 80% was, you know, oh, less hours. If you just cut your days to two to three days, you'll be happier. And that's. They're well meaning. But really you're saying, you know, you know, cut down your opportunities to succeed and do your career down to two to three days versus your four to five days. No one was asking or telling her, like, you know, you have to try to find your purpose. You have to go find a common woman group to talk about, you know, like, go find another dental hygienist who you can relate to and talk to, vent with about like struggles with dental hygiene, family work, life balance, you know, go to CE courses, go find a dental office that will let you implement everything that you learned in that CE course, or go find a dentist that will like make you a partner in the clinical care situation versus, you know, just, oh, you just polished teeth. But like, we weren't giving the right advice also. And it's not like they were being rude, they were being well meaning advice. It just was kind of like the wrong advice.

Yeah. So to Whitney's point, like, who are the people you surround yourself with? So when we, you know, ask a question, making sure we're asking it to people who maybe have been there and have, you know, understand the situation. I love that advice. Amy, let's talk for a minute. So we've talked a little bit about, and I'm going to flip it in just a minute. We're talking about what holds women back. We talked about, you know, is there some male counterpart stuff? How do women hold other women back? Now let's talk about where I think even probably the greatest obstacle is how do women hold themselves back and how do you overcome those obstacles?

So, Josie, your conversation with your Daughter really brought something up in me. And this is one of those self learning, I would say. In my prior partnership, I was 100 anti numbers and anti metrics. I thought they were unfair and barbaric and too black and white and there was no gray. And I just never embraced them. And I think it's because the way that that was presented to me was in more of a, a masculine business world. It was for profit. And what I've learned so much over this last year, I'm going to plug the DEO again. Really, this, I mean, this is just, you know, the, the truth of it that, you know, finding a way to humanize numbers and metrics and relate them to people and impact has been such a great learning for me. And I feel like I'm such a better business owner and person. And now I honestly can say, like, I really love numbers. I love to know what we're doing. But I tell my team not as a way to penalize them, but as a way to uplift them or to say, hey, okay, we made a mistake here. What can we learn? It's just a different way of not holding myself back anymore that, that I really, I really struggled with for a while.

Thank you for sharing that.

I'm so sorry. Just gonna say, Jill, like, I feel every part of that and especially being like a specialist, used to go into all these general dental offices and take my little bagels and say, oh, here I am, please refer to me. You know, and then I'd see the numbers in the back and I was like, all they care about is money. What a joke. They were so smart, you know, and now we're under. I'm understanding that. And again, DEO map has been amazing. And Josie, I remember, you know, we had our summit and we rolled out for the first time Dental Finance 101. And you helped present it, which was so nice. And you even gave me a coaching call to pep me up and say, you can do this. It's okay to be vulnerable and share. But it's scary. And I think part of being female too, is it scary because at least for me, it's like, okay, well if we're not doing well enough, would that be different if x if we weren't, you know, present all the kids stuff, all the mom guilt. What if I worked harder on my company, but I still, it's so important to me to be present at home and then also the other side hard to show, you know, great success too. And so no matter what the result is, it's kind of a scary thing. So thank you for that. And Jill, I echo that so much. And it's been amazing to see the response even less than a year in.

In my opinion, you kind of hit one of the nails on the head as far as what we as women kind of bring to dentistry and bring to leadership and kind of to the area, the business of dentistry, I guess you could say, think about men. You know, they're so numbers geared like it. It's just all about the numbers, the statistics, all of that. And I think the beauty of what we do, because, A, we do have compassion, we do have empathy, we do. We do have grace. Like, we've learned a lot of those things and have a lot of those by nature, but we're able to make the connection between those two things. So we're not just about that number. You know, we've got to hit this. We're about, you know, what led us to that number. Like, what are all the great things that we did? How many people did we take great care of? Do we take great care of each other? Because truly, that all shows within those numbers. And so that is definitely one of the unique abilities of women in leadership, in business and in dentistry.

And so I think our practical tip. Yeah, go ahead, Whitney.

No, no, I was just gonna say we even joke about it. Like, we talk about production and just, you know, we're like, we wish we could just say impact, but the software doesn't allow us to do that. So we're like lives touched. And that's how we want to talk. But the metrics don't allow that. And the metrics seem so rigid and cold and, you know, for profit. And then looking in the mirror and saying, guess what? We're not a nonprofit. We need to have profit. And that allows us to do these beautiful things for the communities that we serve. And so I think that it's just such a mind shift from the cold, stoic nature of a P and L and what's at the bottom of it versus, like, how do we drive change?

Jos, if you don't mind, I'd love to add one of the things we're talking a lot about in the question came up of, like, how are we kind of holding ourselves back? And we're talking a lot about what is it that we measure. And one of the most impactful conversations I ever had when I started working, I was a stay at home mom TILL I was 38 years old. And so my entire identity was measured by what I defined as successful mother. Did I read books to my kids every night. Did I homemake a meal? Did I look like I super PTA mom, right? Like those were my KPIs. And suddenly I was a very single full time working mom. And I was then failing at what I had defined success as. And I remember having a conversation with a good friend and she said to me, motherhood is defined in things you cannot outsource. If you can pick up someone, somebody can pick up your kid and take them. That doesn't make them the mother. Right? The motherhood is in the relationships and in the things that I do. Whether I cooked a meal or again, I picked it up from Masonic across the street. So what I had to learn to do to help myself feel more successful is what were those metrics again? Even at home or in business, we look at those metrics and we look at what are we measuring and defining a success. I have great relationships with my kids. Even if we're running late to get them there, we're going to get them there. Or even if somebody else has to videotape them at the dance practice. For me, like we talked about earlier, like, my relationships and my connections with my kids and my family and myself became the new standard for me to measure myself against. And that freed me a lot, I think, from what was holding me back of that guilt and shame in trying to play all the roles when I

became a working mom.

Amber, thank you so much for that. I think what you said is just so incredibly beautiful and I want to keep talking about that. And so how with everybody being an owner or an executive in a leadership position, how do you find those moments of connection with the people that matter to you? You know, one of the things that I have struggled with is so my husband and I have traded roles. He's a stay at home dad and he does all of the things that a stay at home parent does. When we first switched, I was like, I'll probably stop to do the laundry or the grocery shopping or whatever. And he has taken all of it and he's so good at it to the point that like my kids, gender roles are very reverse to them. So my, my 9 year old Lincoln, he'll say things like, mom, why does everybody talk about mom's cooking? Moms don't cook, Dads cook. And I'm like, that's right, buddy, dads cook. And so, you know, they, our kids, every single one of us, our kids are seeing something very different than maybe what we wanted or thought or traditionally and, or maybe you've always grown up wanting to be, you know, an owner of a business. But how do you find time or what are some of your tricks for being the mom that you want to be while also having this career?

I know my husband is on a leader position as well. So we are both, you know, juggling full time schedules and then trying to still be there for a 13, 14 year old, but who are also in many sports. And, you know, it's all about having a lot of conversation between my husband and I. We are constantly talking about what it's going to look like in the future. When I first moved into the leadership team right after Covid, I told him, you know, like, my identity is about to change. Who I am is about to change. Our whole dynamic in our household is about to change. And it's not like, you know, it's, I'm not going to be the grocery shopper and I'm, it's not my chore to do the laundry, it's our chore and it's the kids chores and it's ours. And there's no equal choice. Like, oh, well, I did half the dishes and now you have to do half the dishes. You have to give up the idea of that there's going to be equal chores given out. You have to give up the idea of perfection. Your house is not going to be looking amazing at all times. When you have two high level executive leadership positions going on in the house, you're going to have to depend on other people. We do little things like in my life, I just celebrate little wins in the car. I make sure that the kids are off all screens and they've always had that rule. And they come into the car, there's no iPad, there's no phones, there's no tablets to watch movies. It's a, we drove to Tennessee. That was a 12 hour drive without screens. And on the way home we're like, here's your screens. Because we couldn't take 12 hours. But we, we made it a purpose to like find the little times that we can connect with our children. And it's driving in a car or it's right before bedtime or it's, you know, trying to make sure that we are all safe, seated at least three or four times a night, eating dinner together. We end the night together, watching. Right now we're watching the Office as a family because it's a funny sitcom and it's just something that we're going to always do. All these little things that add up at the end thank you, Amy.

Who else has got some tips? What do you do?

You know, I can hop in there. So Amy, I, I echo that too. My husband's a executive and has quite a large role. And so, you know, one of the things. And Jill, I don't know how you feel about this, but before when I was in private practice as a periodontist five days a week, it was really challenging because if, you know our kids are sick, I can't cancel my day because the entire team is depending on me and the production and stuff there. And he also couldn't cancel his day so he really needed to lean on help. And I'll be honest, at first that was really, I don't even like the word support system for our team. We need our home and that was hard. And I think that also in the mom world there's a lot of judgment on that. And so in transparency we have a housekeeper and then I have a full time nanny. And those are the people that allow us to be present. And so we spend a lot of time talking with our kids about quality time and we have family dinner as much as we can. That's at least four of the five nights a week. And then my husband and I, since having our second kid, we have a date night every Tuesday. And so we really focus on that for us. And then Saturday night we try and go out with friends. And so for us we try and focus on the kids. And then also one on one time, I don't know if you guys do this, but I try and have with three young boys one on one time with each of them at least a couple times a month. And that's really special. And so it's really just focusing not so much on the quantity but really on the quality of those experiences. And my Google calendar is crazy, but I'm a big believer in optimizing time as much as we can. So I will literally put on the calendar time for my kids and for my husband. And you know, we have all the different color codings for a couple time, my kids, different sports and things like that. And it, it really helps to make sure that we have that balance. And I want to have the same intention that I have going into a meeting, negotiating a refinance of practice with the bank as I have showing up for my son to take him to go paint some pottery. So that's really helped me.

Winnie, I love that you called out some support at home. That was a major obstacle for me. I was going to be the ones my kids were just not going to grow up well cared for and well parented if I didn't teach them to scrub bathrooms and hope they had to do Saturday chores. So I was working like a crazy person all weekend, all week. And then Saturday morning, I'm fighting with my kids to get them to get up, and we're doing chores because I'm going to teach you this lesson. The best gift I ever gave myself was a housekeeper that comes on Fridays. And now my Saturdays, they still. I mean, you know. You know, you got to clean before the cleaner comes, right? So, like, they still have to pick up. But I now get to spend Saturday mornings with them at their event, doing what we love together, even just hanging out and watching a little TV together on Saturday mornings. And did I trade. Are my kids going to leave the house maybe not knowing how to scrub a bathroom toilet? Possibly, but they've got a whole lifetime to figure that out. But I traded valuable quality time with them, and that was a privilege that I had worked hard to earn, and it was a place that I needed to be to protect my relationship with them. I didn't. I was tired of spending the few hours that I got with them fighting them about cleaning up the bathroom properly.

And Amber, we talk about that, too. And I think it's a beautiful space to teach them appreciation, too. Like, appreciation, we say, you know, aren't we so thankful that we're able to have these people that help so mommy and daddy can be present with you, and that way we can really be here. And then seeing them say thank you to the people at our house is like another special gift. And so I love that. Versus the mom guilt of, oh, there's two cars parked here. We have too much help. What are we doing? I say, oh, thank you. I'm so grateful that we're able to do this. So it's. It's nice.

Love that.

Same at our house, we have, you know, we have somebody that comes and cleans every couple of weeks, and it's like, it's my favorite day of the week because I walk out of my office and my house smells so good. Or she'll, you know, we. We schedule it when we're gone on a trip because there's nothing like coming home to a clean house. So, you know, allowing ourselves to do things like that, one of the other things that we're considering right now. So I have three children. My oldest one is 20, but he has significant special needs. And so he has autism, celiac disease, and graves disease. And he functions about the level of a 2 to a 3 year old. So in my home, it's like it, it is always just constant focused on Ethan. And so we've even talked about like, hey, we probably need to get some help, you know, to come in and help us with Ethan. My brother and his wife are here right now and it is such a blessing to have another pair of hands. And it's. But it's just I had to let go like you did, Amber, where I'm like, oh, I, I should be doing this or I should know that should is a story I've made up and I've said to myself and what my, what are my children learning from watching mom build a business and help people and do other things? Yeah. I mean they may not be able to fold a fitted sheet, but like you said, they can YouTube that. Yeah.

Like, they'll be all right.

You'll be all right. Jill, what are some of the things you do?

Well, so interesting that you were talking about, you know, building a business and trying to, I've found, you know, especially leaving a long time partnership and starting kind of fresh two years ago. It was a major life transition and just sharing that all the ups and downs and vulnerabilities about that with my family when we were together, I found to be such a huge learning thing for them, but then such a chance for them to show up for me and to support me and that really this was such a celebration of my family when, when we moved into this. And I think sometimes we tend to try to do our kids stuff and then wait till they go to bed and have. Have the heavy conversations and just how I parent. We talked about it up front and it took a lot of that burden off of me. I think back to when my kids were little and you know, Whitney, we necessarily, we had a, a set date night as well. And sometimes it was our three hours to argue and get it out of our system. And sometimes it was a great way to, you know, reconnect. I'm also very adamant about my time with my friends and time for myself. So once a year I take a long weekend away by myself just to refuel and set my goals. And I always calendar time with my girlfriends because I think that's probably for me more valuable than an hour with my therapist. So those are things that we do in our family, but then also for myself.

I love that so much. What was your last girls trip?

My last girls? Well, I've got one coming up in April with to Nashville. I have one group of girlfriends from Dental school that we, we travel together every year. So that's coming up.

Great. I love that. Jenny, what about you?

That's kind of been probably the biggest, I would say, one of my biggest struggles. We're, we're both extremely full time in our careers and, you know, having hands. We, we kind of, we. We just kind of did it on our own. You know, we're surrounded by family, but both of our families, you know, work very full time. My mom and dad has mom and dad. Other than that, we weren't. So we're in the middle of nowhere, so we can't just, just, you know, it's not that easy to get a sitter. We've struggled with a lot of that. And, you know, at first there was no separation. There was no separation. But between my career and, and my home now, I've always given my all to my boys just as much as I can. Like, I protect it. Like, I laugh and go as long as my fiber.

Okay.

You know, I, that's just kind of my priority. But I've had to learn how to say no. Like, the biggest thing I've had to learn how to put those boundaries up and understand that it's okay to say no. I was very much, and I say years ago, my past person was very much a people please. You know, I wanted to make everybody happy and I wanted to take care of them. Whatever it was, I had a solution for it, you know, and I knew that we could figure it out. So it was incredibly hard to say no. And I learned how to do that. Like, I cut the phone off, I unplug. Dr. Harvey tells me to do it more. He's like, jenny, you don't do it enough. You know, do it more. Take Thursday afternoons. Like, take more vacations. He's super encouraging from that aspect, but it's hard to, to detach from it. But we do. A lot of my boys are not like, we're gonna probably regret this, but my boys are not super technology at all. Like, they're 14. They don't pick up their cell phones very often at all. Like, at all. Folks get mad and are like, dang, I text you, you know, where were you? But they don't, they don't do a lot of video games. They don't do a lot of screen time because they do so much at school. But we are outdoors and like, as soon as I can get home and change, we're outside, we're outdoors. And I've learned how to leave my phone behind and yeah, just say no. And that's been a difficult thing.

I like.

I like Jenny's just say no. It reminds me of Dr. Eric Roman when I heard him say, it's got to be a hell yes, or it's a hell no. And I took that on a personal level. A lot of things, like, if you don't want to go somewhere on the weekend, and it's just like kind of like, well, we should, then it's a. It's a no. And. But if you're, like, all excited about it because your time is very valuable, then go for it. Say yes. But if it's. If it's not something, then just say no. And so I like Jenny's, like, just learning to say no. And. And then that whole point of say yes.

I love that. Yep. I love that, too. Oh, no, it's Romanism. No, go ahead. I say it's just a good Romanism.

No, it's such a good one. And I was just gonna say it's so. I. I think that's. I love the hel.

Right.

Because it's so hard to say no. I don't know about you guys, but especially with so many opportunities in every direction, and then you just feel over, and then you get overtaxed. So it's that hyper focus on time and being present, and there's so much power in the know, even when it's uncomfortable. And boundaries are a good thing, and I think sometimes they're not always portrayed that way.

Absolutely. I think I've heard a phrase that the kindest word in the English language is no, which is really interesting. So these are great tips. So it's, you know, getting help, letting go of this, like, what I should be doing, being really focused, intentional setting time on the calendar, making sure you have time for yourself, setting boundaries, being outside. That's all really, really wonderful. One habit I've kept up is I will lay down with my kids, all three of them. Doesn't matter that they're 9, 12, and 20. I'll lay down with them when it's bedtime. So first it'll be with my son, and we'll read a book, and then I'll go to my daughter, and we're talking about boys and school and girls and all of these things. And then with my oldest son with special needs, he just wants to, like, sit and be loud and cuddle with mom for a minute. But that keeps me grounded and connected to them, even when it's like, I'm so tired, and I would just like to go to Bed. I just know that I have very few moments and those like at some point they're going to be like, get out of my room, mom. So I'm leveraging it and keeping it as long as I can. We have just a few minutes and so I would love to hear from each of you like some closing thoughts. But also if you had the opportunity to speak to a younger version of yourself, what would be one piece of advice that you would share with younger version of you? Who would like to go first?

Oh, I can go. So I would say the thing I wish I, you know, could have told my younger self is that life is yes. And and in my younger, very small, narrow minded self, I believe that the one path of joy and happiness for me and the right thing for me to do was be a stay at home mom. And like it was the white ticket fence, the whole thing. I never allowed myself to even imagine that I could be both, that I could have a career life transitioned and it kind of forced me to learn that. And it's been the best journey of my life. And so just to be able to tell myself at a young age, yes, and you can actually, you can't do it all perfectly, but you'll figure that out after you're 30. But you can have a full life with lots of different hats on and be a good mom at the same time.

Gosh, that's good. Thank you. Amber. Who would like to go next?

I'll jump in. I think my phrase that I would have like to have known earlier would have been to get curious. I think I have always had a good sense of intuition, but I think a lot of times because I wasn't curious, I would get pulled in different directions. And I think if I would have gotten curious and asked the questions that I may have clarified things for myself a lot sooner. So don't be afraid to get to get curious and ask the questions.

I love that. Jill. Thank you. Who would like to go next?

So for me it would be don't afraid to fail. Don't be afraid to fail. Like that's where I have grown and learned so much and I used to be so scared of that, you know, and so that that's my biggest thing. Don't be afraid to fail.

So good. Jenny.

I was going to say the exact same thing. So for me it's there's strength in the failure and that there's actually a launch in there and that there's a lesson in there and there's growth in there. So I'd Say, just lean into that and trust yourself and your own intuition.

That's great, Amy.

If I could go back and talk to my younger self, my younger self, I was a late bloomer for school and just in general in life and I was always behind in reading and math and always going to see a special teacher to help me get ahead and get back into grade level. And because of those classes, you know, by middle school I was on grade level but I had this self conscious confidence that were so low that I didn't think that I could achieve anything. So I think I would have told myself, hey, you're just, you know, late to the game and you can achieve so much more and just, you know, just start doing and just say yes and, and go. And like Jill, Jenny said, don't be afraid to fail and just keep failing and learn faster that way.

I love that. Thank you so much for sharing, Amy. You know, I, I think there'd probably be a lot of things I'd say to myself, like, start going to yoga and don't stop or like, you know, start exercising and don't stop and probably get life insurance when it's way easier and you're young and healthy. But I think I would probably tell myself that it would, it will all make sense. Like it will all come together. I had a great deal of trauma when I was growing up. Just family stuff and my dad died when I was young and a horrible car accident, just all sorts. It was like one traumatic event after the other. And yet as I look at who I am today and even having a child with special needs, I look and I recognize every difficult thing that happened in my life has given me the ability to connect with other people or to love other people or to understand them. And I think it has, again, just prepared me to be the woman that I am today. And the way that I show up as a wife and a mom and as a coach and all sorts of other things. So I think I would probably just say it will all work for your benefit. It is all going to work out well. Ladies, thank you so much for spending your day with us. I am so grateful for your wisdom. I am so grateful for your vulnerability and for all that you shared. We hope that anybody listening to this, whether you are a man wondering how to integrate more females into your leadership team or connect better with the women on your team, or if you're a woman who's looking to lead, nobody will give you permission. Nobody's ever going to come open the door for you. And so hopefully hearing the stories of these courageous women. You know that if you have that calling in your heart, the time is now and you can absolutely do it. And there are incredible women in this industry that are willing to cheer for you and help you achieve what you didn't even think was possible. So thank you everybody, so much. And this was another episode of DSO Secrets.

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