161: Missteps To Avoid When Exiting/Selling Your Dental Practice

Welcome to DSO Secrets. I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur in the dental industry. I've had my ups and downs, just like you. There's so much opportunity to be excited about, but so few resources to get answers. From here on DSO Secrets, we get you those answers so you can change the lives you're meant to bless and achieve your personal success.

When I was working as an associate right out of school, I never imagined I could own these many practices with this amount of support. So thank you. You have helped build my marketing mind to a whole new level. You have this natural talent, this unique ability. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of DSO Secrets. I am Ken Kaufman, your host today. Very excited for the topic that we're going to be talking about. It should be on all of our minds. But first, I want to go ahead and introduce our guest. Sean, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience, tell them what you do, what your expertise is, and how long you've been in dental, and then we'll jump into it.

Sure. So my name is Sean Terrell. I am the founder and the lead financial advisor at Dentist Exit Planning, which is an independent financial services company that I founded myself, registered in the state of Iowa, which is where I'm based. Although I work with dentists all over the country. And my expertise is providing what I call personal financial planning for dentists who are soon to be or have recently exited clinical practice in some fashion.

Outstanding. So let's, if you're okay, let's just go ahead and jump into this. You're obviously talking to a lot of dentists. Sometimes they might have one or two or three practices, and they're obviously, they've spent a lifetime or some portion of a lifetime trying to build up this asset, which is this business which has lots of value, patients that come in and treatments being done, and it's generating revenue and profitability and those sorts of things. If you were to. If I was to ask you, you know, what are the three top considerations that if I'm about to sell that I should be thinking about to so that I can get my personal finances kind of tightened up and ready to go, maybe tell me, like, what's the right timing to engage somebody like you? And then what are kind of the top three considerations that could be massive foot fouls for these dentists and cost them a lot of money into retirement?

Sure. No good questions. I think in terms of ideal timing, like, look, you know, sometimes people tell me they want to leave in three months Other times it's, you know, six years. So in general, the longer the Runway, you have to get some of these things in place and plan, the better. That being said, you can't start planning too far out. I like to use four years as like the end of the Runway in the, in the longest amount of time that you'd probably want to start thinking about this just because in my experience, when you sell a dental practice, a lot of times they're doing a three year look back on the valuation process in terms of the numbers there. And so four years gives us a little bit more time than that to start thinking about things. If you ask any business owner, let alone a dental practice owner, when they expect to exit their, their business, the most common answer given is always five years. So I try to stay away from five years. Three to four years is a good time. But hey, you know, if something changes and you want to do it sooner than later, you know, we can always work with what we can work with. So that's sort of the time element of the question. In terms of the big three things to think about, I think number one is for a dentist to really spend some time thinking about what I, what I call what is. The question I always ask is what are you solving for? And what I mean by that is what is how does money fit into your life and your lifestyle? So the first thing that I think needs to occur is for a dentist to do an honest assessment of their life and their lifestyle. You know, some dentists are perfectly happy living on $10,000 a month. Other dentists, the number is three or four times that amount of money. So if you're trying to come up with $10,000 a month in terms of how much cash flow you need post clinical, that's one equation. If it needs to be $50,000 a month, well, that's an entirely different equation too. And it's my job to tell people, you know, how likely that is or that isn't what they're trying to solve for. And that's important too, because as most dentists, no there's, it's not uncommon to find some personal expenses that find their way onto the business balance sheet. So as you, and this is, you know, they do this when they add, do add backs with practice valuations too. Right. But you're really trying to separate the cream from the coffee in terms of what is it really costing you to live on a monthly or a yearly basis in terms of how much cash flow is needed for the lifestyle that you desire. Post Clinical. So that's the first piece. Figure out, you know, what does lifestyle really look like and try to do an honest assessment of that. The closer you can get to a number, the better. The second step, once you do that is.

And real quick, Sean, I just want to interrupt for a second. And so, for example, let's say a dentist walks into you and says, you know, here's my number. And you say, hey, based on like what you're telling me your business is worth or what, what you've been offered for so far, that you're just not going to have enough? I mean, is it, is it a factor of them either changing their expectations on, on what their post clinical income is going to be, or do you tell them, hey, maybe you need to get heads down and build this practice up a little bit more and make it worth more money so that you can support that lifestyle, or is it some combination of both?

I think it's a combination of both. So if, you know, if their practice, give or take, is worth 4 or 600,000 on the low end and they have a million dollars in their 401k and their investable assets outside, and they think they need $40,000 a month to live, or they want $40,000 a month to live post retirement, you know, it's my job, as any good clinician would tell a patient what's reasonable and what's not reasonable to tell them that's probably just not enough. Those things don't all fit together. So either you're going to have to compromise on what you want your life and your lifestyle to look like if you really want to or need to leave now, or as you said, you need to put your head down and get to work and figure out how to make your numbers outside of your practice be higher at some point in the future and also drive value up in your practice and maybe stay a little bit longer than you thought you wanted to increase that multiple and increase that, that net number that you're going to take when you exit your practice? So again, it gets back to what are you solving for, what's acceptable to you and what are you willing to, or not willing to compromise on lifestyle or time? Still in dentistry.

Perfect. That's great. And I, I did cut you off there. I asked for the three considerations. So what are, what are the other two that, that you think are the most critical as, as dentists are thinking about exiting?

Yeah, so the, the second one is, and thanks for, I don't mind being cut off, interrupted any time and ask Good. Follow up questions where I haven't been clear enough or you think it would be helpful for the audience. I'm totally fine with that. But the second thing to think about as a dentist is leaving clinical is really getting together a strategy on how to grow and distribute wealth post clinical. So your practice is worth X amount of dollars and you have X amount of assets out hopefully outside of your practice in real estate or investable assets that could be 401ks, IRAs, things like that. And just to, you know, if, if to, to use a really simple, easy math example, you know, if, if your practice and all of your assets outside of your practice in total were worth a million dollars and you needed $50,000 per year to live, you could take that million dollars and put it in a savings account and take out $50,000 a year and you can see that your money would last for 20 years. So that's a really easy low number. But what we know is that we probably want to give that million dollars a chance to grow somehow over that next 20 or 30 years to increase what's there and maybe increase how much we can, can spit off with that million dollars each year. So you need to put together some sort of a distribution and a growth strategy that fits in with your comfort level and your values for the next 20 or 30 years. And that's, that brings up a kind of a sub point on that. Number two topic is, you know, you need to think about how long the money needs to last for. Are you relatively healthy? Are you in your late 50s or are you in your mid? Are we solving for 15 or 20 years? Are we solving for 30 or 35 or maybe even 40 years? That all factors in as well as.

Let me lob a question at you here because most of us actually don't know how long we're going to live, right? And it seems like we hear in the news that life expectancy is increasing, medical advances, there's a lot of things that have been occurring that are expanding the lifetime. And so if I'm a 50 year old trying to decide when am I going to die, if that life expectancy keeps going up like. So I'm curious, how do you sort of try to put that in a box because these are, you know, numbers. And if you invest it, you may or may not get the return that you're hoping for and all those sorts of things. How do you, how do you tie all that together for, for the dentist that you're helping?

Yeah, no, that's a really good question. So you know, you can run all sorts of simulations and Monte Carlo analysis as they call them in the industry. And those are helpful to give you like a little bit of guidance and guardrails on kind of where you are in a rough estimate in my, my belief is that you need someone along the way that's going to help you course correct over that 20 or 30 or 40 year journey, depending on what the conditions of that journey are. So I think my industry does a really bad job of selling people on certainty. My position is that we can't possibly know what the next 30 or 40 years is going to look like. Let's get a rough estimate of what we think it's going to look like. Start out on the journey and then be in regular communication on course corrections that are needed over the course of time.

So, so there's, there's a process of try to get the best estimate you can and then know that you're going to need to iterate because, you know, maybe the income needs change, maybe there's a health crisis much earlier on, maybe you end up living past 100 or whatever. Right. You just have to be ready to course correct or iterate as you go, like you said.

Absolutely. I think that's more, it's very likely that that will be required. And I think my position is let's expect that. Let's plan for how we're going to react ahead of time or when these inevitable course corrections are going to happen and what are we going to do then. And then when those inevitably happen to us, we're not thrown off, we're not surprised, we're not upset or anxious because this straight line up isn't actually this 45 degree angle. It's all kinds of dips and mountains and everything else. Right?

That's right. Great. Okay, so sorry, we're getting through your three here, so keep, keep going.

Yep. And the only thing I want to add on number two was sort of with that, that distribution and growth strategy, I think you also needed to have an idea like are you solving to bounce the last check that you write, as some people say jokingly, or would you like something to be left behind for your children, for other causes that are important to you? If we have $5 million, can we spend it all down or do we want to make sure there's X number of dollars left for whoever that all factors into the equation.

Yeah, great call out there because I see more and more, especially in the DSO world where you've got a lot of really high multiples. And private equity coming in and doing transactions. I see and I'm hearing more and more about people looking at what they've earned and realizing it doesn't make sense for me to spend this in my lifetime. And so they, then their mind immediately goes to generational wealth planning, which is a whole nother level of complexity in terms of what you want to have happen with that money and, and how it should be shared and, and so on and so forth.

And again, the more leeway you can give somebody that's an expert in those areas, the more efficient you can be with whatever you want that plan to be. And the more time you have, the better off you can make that plan in the future in terms of leverage and in terms of leaving the most amount to whoever you want to leave it for and not letting the IRS take more than its fair share off the top of whatever that leftover amount is. Which leads me to point number three on the, the top three things I think dentists should consider when, when exiting their dso, exiting clinical. This one gets overlooked a lot. And I think it's going to be a big part of the future of financial planning as I see it, in that I think there needs to be a lot more proactive planning around taxes related to personal financial planning for dentists. Taxes will almost always be the number one expense post clinical, post exit for a dentist in the last third or half of their life. And so the way most dentists come to me after a long career is almost, they're almost their experience with taxis has been in the rear view mirror looking backwards. Right. I think where there's a chance to really move the needle is by looking through the windshield, looking forward and being proactive. Oftentimes a dentist has deferred a lot of income into the profit sharing Plan or their 401k during their, their practice years, their high earning years. And that's been a really good move because they were probably in the highest or if not one of the highest tax brackets. And so now they have all this money, this huge pool or this huge pile of money in a 401k or in some sort of IRA that will all be taxed at unknown rates in the future. And where there's real opportunity to not tip the IRS or give the IRS more than it's due is by in the late 50s through the mid-70s when required minimum distribution start kicking in for some of that money to really be proactive about putting a strategy together, getting a strategy in place about how and when you pay your taxes and Last point with that, and this is a really big point, is that most people, Dennis and everybody else are accustomed to trying to solve to pay the least amount of taxes, the leave whatever that dollar amount is each year in any given year. Like they're always trying to make that number as low as possible that they see online. Whatever it is on the 1040, it's

changed too many times. Who knows what line it is now, right.

My position is that the better way to look at that is actually to try to think about the total tax bill in retirement over the last 30 years of someone's life. And that's going to be in the seven figures for most dentists, let's be honest, it's going to be well over a million dollars if someone has done a good job building and saving assets. And how can we make that total number lower than what it is with the default setting that we currently have? How can we sand off the rough edges of that seven figure tax bill in retirement to make it just a little bit less painful than it, than it is if we continue on the current pace. So getting a plan in place, looking out the windshield instead of the rear view mirror taxes, so, so critical.

This is, this is a very interesting set of, you know, sort of top three considerations and I want to jump into this tax one a little bit. As you know Sean, I, early on in my career I was in the, the financial planning world, stock broker world. You know, back in the day when you actually had to call somebody to buy a stock, you didn't just open up that E trade account or whatever. There's some interesting things happening with what with the Roth options versus your pre tax options. And you know, I'm the nerd that does that runs all the numbers. I'm sure you do too. Like we love our spreadsheets and we love to run analysis, but the interesting thing is, is if we believe that taxes are going to go up in the future, then moving any dollars that are have not been taxed yet over, like there's an interesting potential strategy for that. And like if you think taxes are going down, there's a potential strategy for that and, and, and planning for the future. And some of that is, you know, just taking a wild guess and then being, being willing to iterate as you go. When I say wild guess, it's an educated guess. But I'm curious what your take is on that of you know, somebody who's a dentist, 40, 50, 60 years old and you know, should, is there sometimes a reason, like a viable reason to start paying some tax on some of that before you get, you get it off into those later years. Like basically I'm saying convert it from a taxable account to a non taxable account, which would be some type of a Roth structure.

Yep. So what you're referring to is something called a Roth IRA conversion strategy where you're converting pre tax IRA or 401k dollars into a Roth IRA and, and basically saying, I would rather, I think taxes are going to be the same or higher in the future than they are right now. And I'm going to pay the devil that I know and pay my taxes now because I can save 2%, 4%, 10% on that million dollars over my lifetime if I pay it now. The devil that I know instead of paying it out over the next 30 or 40 years.

That's exactly.

It's a very, very popular strategy right now. And here's the thing. Taxes are guaranteed to go up in the next four years based on the current tax code and legislation that's in place. The Tax Cut and Jobs act is set to expire or sunset at the end of 2025. So you have three tax brackets in there to get a little bit more micro that are guaranteed to go up by a few percentage points or several percentage points depending on what bracket. So you know, does it make sense now then? It makes sense to pay 22% tax on the bracket that's going to be 24% or, or 28 or 32. Like the math there. I don't want to get too big into the numbers, but you can kind of see where I'm going. Yeah. And that it might make sense to accelerate paying your tax bill in retirement if you can pay a lower amount now.

Yeah. And then you have to offset that with, well, what if I took those dollars instead of, you know, paying the tax now? What if I use those dollars and invested them? Could I ultimately create. And it's. All of this ends up being a combination of probably all of it. It's. And, and I heard somebody, I don't know who coined the phrase at first, you might know. But tax diversification, just like we say asset diversification, actually tax diversification, where you have taxable accounts, non taxable accounts, you're doing things to maximize or optimize the tax brackets from year to year and, and all of those sorts of things if you can. Like, I'm fascinated by the financial planning world and I know that so many of the dentists are worried about this, about when I'm going to exit and am I going to have enough and how do I make sure that I'm, you know, optimizing what I can get. And obviously the tax bill, like you said, you said that's their biggest bill after clinical. It's probably their biggest bill during clinical too in many instances.

I was trying to be kind.

It is for all.

It probably, yeah. Is their biggest bill throughout their lifetime. You're absolutely right. Yeah, it's 30 to 40% of their expenses and yeah. Just to maybe add on to the tax piece of things. So one last piece of that I would say too is, you know, it's just not a good solid strategy. You talk about tax diversification. It's a really good strategy to in retirement have some bucket, some big chunk of money that is not subject to any taxation in the future. So if you need to get your hands on a chunk of money in the future, you don't have to take 30 or 40% more than you actually need to net it down. What it would, you know, like if you take a million dollars out of a tax, tax deferred account, you're going to need to take 1,400,000 or $1,500,000 to net a million dollars. So getting money converted into post tax places like Roth iras is a really good place to have a chunk of money. And then you also are putting yourself in a position where you do eventually get to the age that you are required to start taking distributions out of those pre tax accounts RMDs. Those RMDs are not so big as to push you into higher tax brackets than you really want to be to from a Medicare surcharge persp and a whole host of other areas as well. So yeah, tax diversification, having a plan in place, huge.

That's fantastic. So this has been really helpful these, these top three considerations. I wanted to ask a follow up question, just kind of an overarching general one here, Sean. And it is. So as I'm thinking about selling my practice, we talked about maybe what's the right time to engage an advisor to help you think about planning for, you know, tax and, and having enough money to live on and all those sor things. I'm curious, what advice would you give dentists right now that are in their earning years and they've got a high amount of income because they're, you know, they're great dentists, they do a great job taking care of their patients, they've built a great practice or you know, say you know, two to three practices and you know, so their income's coming in. Here's my question. And I, Because I hear this all the time, Dennis, struggle with when should I take the money out and start diversifying outside of my practice versus leave it in and build and grow? Because especially those of us that are entrepreneurs, we all believe that we're going to create a much better return on our money than the stock market will now in any given year. Maybe that's. That wouldn't be true. But if a dentist entrepreneur can look and say, hey, I'm going to. If I, instead of taking this money out and investing in things outside of my business, if I keep it in and I invest in this equipment and I invest in expanding this office and I build an office over here, I. That can create a great return. How do you. And I'm curious if you run into this discussion and how do you kind of coach these dentists? Because I get asked this question a lot, actually. When is it time to start taking money out of the practice and diversifying versus leave it in and just keep growing? You know, I'm full bore. Go, go, go.

So just to make sure I understand the question correctly, just use a really easy example. Let's say A dentist nets $500,000 from their solo practice. They need $300,000 to live on. They have $200,000 in profit. That has some optionality around it. Yeah, they could leave it. And let's assume they already have an emergency cushion in the practice, that they don't need that for just cash reserves. What do you do with that $200,000? I think it really depends on the dentist and what they want their. Their life to look like. So my first question, if someone posed that to me, would be to throw it back at them and just see how they react to this. What do you think you should do? And that is probably going to lead me in a direction that I can, you know, try to steer them where I think they deep down, subconsciously want to go. Anyway, it really depends. Do you want to grow in scale? And I know you were a guest on my podcast, and we kind of talked about that same question, too. Like, that's sort of a pretty big inflection point for a dentist. Like, you just want to keep it with two docs in one location, or do you really want to start stacking things on top of each other to use. To put it very crudely in my words. So. So that's a really tough question. And I like the way you think about it. You think that you can Get a better rate of return by taking that $200,000 and using it as a down payment to buy a second practice and creating more leverage and more, more skill there. That's absolutely a way you could go with it could also pay down debt. You could also, yeah, you could reinvest in the practice by buying more equipment and do more procedures that way. So there's a lot of different things you could do. That's the $64,000 question. I don't know if I'm totally answering it this. I think there's a lot of different options and I think they're all good options. It really just depends on what the dentist wants their next 20 or 30 years to look like. And I tell people this all the time. I'll get people, I'll get dentists that just hate debt and they're like, I've got this 3% loan and I know I should invest this extra money, but I can't. I really just want to pay off this load and be debt free. And I just tell people there's a, there's a money, there's a math aspect of financial decisions and there's an emotional component of financial decisions. Like the math says that if you got a 3% loan fixed for the next 10 years, you should probably not accelerate that payment. And the current market conditions, we're in February 2023. But if they hate debt and that makes them sleep better at night to have that debt gone as fast as possible, then I tell people to pay it off. Great point. In a roundabout way, I hope I answered that question. It really depends on kind of what they want the future to look like. And I think all options are good.

That's right. And what's your vision? And then I think too one thing you hinted to this, I'll just articulate this out a little bit further. There's also an amount of risk tolerance where at some point it's like they, they feel better taking some money out, setting it aside, maybe making sure the kids college education is funded and maybe they pay off their house. Or you know, there are those that want to be cons that feel more conservative and are more risk averse, that would rather use their cash to do that. And there are others that say, hey, I want to, I'm going to double down here and my practice just generated 200,000 of extra cash and I'm going to use that to go and do X. I think the one thing you and I would agree on here, Sean, more than anything else is before you spend the 200,000. Make sure you've paid in your quarterly estimated taxes, because the biggest pain is when that dentist gets the bill and they just bought a boat and then they find out that they need $50,000 to pay taxes or $25,000 to pay taxes or something like that.

So make sure you know your safe harbor number and hit that safe harbor number. Right?

That's right. Yeah. 110% of what you paid prior year or. Yeah, whatever.

Yep.

Awesome. Okay, cool. Well, Sean, with every guest that we bring on, when I interview them, I like to ask a series of lightning round questions.

Okay?

So these seven questions, I'm going to fire them at you. Looking for quick answers? No. No need for long explanations. Unless it intrigues me enough that I sort of like, we need to unpack something there. Okay, so first question, what are you currently working on?

So I am building a new website to make my website better than it is. I don't think it reflects my brand and the value that I offer. So that needs to get done right away in 2023. Also working on a Facebook group that I want to get off the ground here by the end of the first quarter.

Oh, outstanding. Oh, and by the way, I'm remembering when you and I were on the podcast together, because your podcast remind me the name of it.

Dentists, Puns and money. Yeah.

And so you asked me for a favorite joke of mine. So I'm. You're going to get eight questions here. I'm going to ask you what's your. What's your favorite joke?

I didn't prep for the joke, but I got one. I just thought of one.

Okay.

Oh, do I give the joke now?

Yeah, let's do it.

I'm just stealing this from. This might have been the joke that you gave me. Just trying to remember a corny joke that somebody used on mine. What do you call a dinosaur that doesn't like to brush their teeth?

No idea.

A flossoraptor.

There you go.

I love it. I'm sure if that's the right delivery

of the joke, but dentist puns and money, that's. And by the way, go check out Sean's podcast. I think the episode we recorded will be there, you know, on there soon. But. But Sean has great guests on, and I'd encourage you guys to engage with that. Okay. What are you the most proud of in your life, Sean?

That I bet on myself and went on my. Went out on my own a couple years ago.

Good for you. That's awesome. Love to hear that. Favorite sports team.

Big fan of the Iowa Hawkeyes. If you've noticed the water cup I'm sipping from throughout our time today, every Iowa football game and basketball game, I'm usually in front of the TV or in the stands for Outstanding.

Do you travel with the team much, by the way?

Not too much at this point. I've got young kids, so I. I just make sure that I can carve out to at least watch it on TV when they're. When. When they're playing live.

Nice.

All right.

Favorite hobby?

I love to ride my road bike. I got into cycling a couple years ago and it's one of those things that I'm like, where has this been all my life? I can't get enough of it.

Yeah, you and I talked about that. I'm. I'm similar. I love to get on my bike. The. The winters in Utah are not forgiving, which means that I'm on my spin bike during the winter times, but as soon as it's warm enough, I'm road biking and mountain biking. Okay. Favorite app on your phone.

Amazon Music. I'm a huge music aficionado. I love. Well, I like a lot of Pearl Jam's my, my all time band, but I love all genres and I like to curate and build my own playlist for different occasions and moods and things like that.

Outstanding. I love it. Your favorite spreadsheet function.

I am not a spreadsheet guy. I don't know anything about spreadsheets.

Are you kidding me?

Nope. That's. I missed that class in college or somewhere thereafter. I guess there's AI that can do it for you now, but I haven't even gone down that road. I'm back of the I'm a calculator guy.

All right, so your favorite spreadsheet function is AI we'll just call it that then. Okay, that's awesome. So, and you, do you have one of the old school calculators that does the calculation of time, value of money and all of that stuff?

Yeah, like every once in a while I'll get into them. But I've. I've. I've tried to follow this acronym called KISS as I've gotten older. Do you know what KISS stands for?

Oh, yeah. Keep it simple.

Keep it simple, Stupid. So sometimes I like to do the analysis on my end however I do it, and then try to draw it in crayon when I can for the clients that I work with. That's my, that's my intention. It doesn't always come out in crayon. But that's what I try.

That's awesome. It makes sense. All right. If you had one piece of advice to give to dental practice owners today, what. What would you tell them?

Man, I'm a big believer in paradigms being a bad thing. I would challenge people to think about their current life and how their practice and career fits into that, and if they're truly happy and if they're not, to ask themselves if the way they're doing it is the way that it has to be done, or is there a different way to pull back and figure out a better way to do it so you can live the life that you want to live in dentistry, outside of dentistry, and just challenge paradigms that might exist in the profession and just life in general.

Outstanding. We're all guilty of kind of fitting into routines and following sort of paths and patterns that often when we ask ourselves those questions, we realize, wait, now, why am I doing this? And we start to realize that maybe, you know, maybe there's a better way, a different way, or maybe the entire way just needs to be abandoned altogether. Right? Yeah.

Tim Ferriss is a podcaster and kind of a guru that I follow, and he has this question that I have to remind myself of this all the time, which is, what would it look like if this were easy? Or does it have to be this hard? Yeah. How am I complicit in making it this hard? So I'm talking to myself as much as the audience when I share some of this stuff. I am a work in progress by all accounts.

Fair point. I'm in a similar place. All right, so, Sean, it's been absolutely fantastic to have you on the show. You are in the Facebook group. So if any of you have any, you know, financial planning related questions about, you know, where you're at now or. Or thinking about selling and needing to start to think about planning for the future. Definitely. Are anyone in the DSO Grow Secrets Facebook group? Definitely. You can ping Sean there and then, Sean, what are the other ways for them to reach out to you?

Yeah, my email is sean s h a w n dentistexit.com so my website is also dentistexit.com you can find a lot of information there. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. I don't know for how long, but at least I am right now. And yeah, it's not too hard to find me on those places.

Awesome. Yeah, it sounds like Instagram is where you're asking yourself, is there an easier way to do this? Right.

I'm playing around. You got to try everything before you say you don't like it, right? I don't know yet. The fence. There's a lot of dentists on Instagram, but I can't tell if late career, late stage dentists are hanging on Instagram or not. If they are, let me know. Look me up there. Dentist Exit is my, my handle on Instagram.

That's fantastic. Great. Well, Sean, thank you so much for joining the show today. It's been absolute pleasure to have you. I just as a quick wrap up here as we get ready to end the episode. Again, thank you to Sean. Many, many thanks to all of you who have joined in and listened whether it was in the Facebook group or via the podcast. We encourage you to like the podcast and, and just keep engaged with us. Come over to the Facebook group, ask your questions. It's amazing. We get so we get like three to five questions a day in there from practicing dentists and, and other folks that are trying to help run dental organizations. And it's a, it's a great place to curate ideas and, and to have a little mini, mini mastermind. So encourage you guys to do that. Again, many, many thanks to everybody who joined today. This is a wrap on all things dentist exit planning. Happy day.

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