198: Mastering IV Sedation Dentistry for Practice Growth

Here's the thing that I think it's an opportunity cost piece. 50% of people don't go to the dentist. And one of the big reasons they do not go is because they're just afraid.

Hi, I'm Emmett Scott, and just like you, I've had my ups and downs in the dental industry, but times are changing. The DEO has built a map of how to succeed in one of the most challenging industries to navigate. On this show, we talk to dental industry leaders, solve problems, and get you the answers you need to face these challenging times and thrive. Welcome to DEO's Growth Safety Secrets podcast for dental organizations. Now let's get started.

All right, everyone, welcome to another episode of DEO Growth Secrets podcast. I am Jay Pool, CEO of the DEO and your guest host today, filling in for the illustrious Emmett Scott. I have two of my favorite dentists in the whole wide world here, Dr. Scott Sayer and Dr. Chris Martin. We're going to talk about, you know, I hate to even call it a corner of dentistry, but a part of dentistry that we think and you all are super passionate about that has massive potential that you guys have really mastered. To be honest, I think you've, I think you've mastered this part of it. And I think a lot of people who are listening are going to have their eyes open a little bit. So, Dr. Sayer, do you want to give yourself an introduction, tell folks what you're all about, and then we'll go to you. Dr. Martin.

Yeah. Hey, Scott Sayer. I'm Cincinnati, Ohio. Been doing dentistry for a long time. You can tell, but because of my hair, not going to go into those details. Four practices, 140 staff, 12 docs. And we are kicking it because of sedation dentistry.

Awesome. And we're going to go deep into that because, you know, those four locations are doing more than a lot of DSOs are, you know, they're doing a lot of. They're pumping out a lot of dentistry. And so we're going to talk about that. So, Dr. Martin, how about you?

Yeah, it's a very similar story. Dr. Sayer has been a mentor of mine for 15 years. We were part of the same mastermind group, group called Whitehall Management. And really just we were, you know, we were both practicing dentists. Me specifically, I was such a great manager that I managed myself down to one employee. And I realized I didn't want to be a solopreneur all by myself and read a couple books, but mostly got involved with coaching and Realized that, you know, I still love, had a passion for dentistry, but there was, there was models out there where you could really focus on the craft of dentistry and take the psychology out and serve patients in a way that you could become an expert at dentistry. And then it attracted like minded team members that wanted to really just get into the meat of being a dentist and providing next level care for patients surgically, but also in a customer service way, whether you take the fear away from them. And so I think part of the reason that I was not fulfilling my potential as a dentist was because I was so fearful of hurting feelings or tap dancing around feelings of the staff and the patients. Finding oral sedation or we started with oral sedation, then went into IV after we found Dr. Sayre and started modeling, patterning ourselves after his model. And you know, everything just exploded for us. And we attracted doctors that wanted to do the same thing, which was be the best in class dentist that they could be. And you can focus on that when you allow patients to take a little breather or take a nap. So IV sedation really allowed us to take our practice to a similar model. Four practices, about 120, 130 team members, and we do a lot of the same revenue as 20 location practices. So it's a model that resonates with us for sure.

So we're going to talk about what this world is, how you guys have approached it. And really it is about patient care, it is about the way, you know, patient experience. But just to give people an idea of the scale that you all are dealing with, I mean, Dr. Sayer, what does one doctor of yours on average produce versus you know, versus kind of what you've seen in other, other practices and locations.

We really reach for them to, once they're sedation certified to do 10 to $15,000 a day, they almost always do that. I do way over that. I mean know, we have practices that do 5 million a year. My main practice is, I don't know, over 15 million. So you have to understand all the business aspects of this, the techniques and the, the way that care is given. But you can double and triple your case average on every patient by doing sedation. So you're going to do the root canal and the crown and the five fillings and the two extractions all at one time.

Yeah.

And because the patient's sedated, it's great. Now there are a lot of dentists out there that will numb everybody up, use local anesthetic and try to do the same thing. But there are a whole bunch of dentists that don't do endo. Don't do this. Don't. You know why? Because the patient's not comfortable.

You got it?

And we, if we can show you how to make the patient comfortable. There are so many different things. Surgical extractions, wisdom teeth, endodontics, implants, sinus lifts. The whole array of things opens up to you, and you become much less afraid of approaching those kinds of, of, of techniques. And I'm sure Chris can expand on this. Yeah.

So, Dr. Martin, you, you, you kind of have, you have like, before sedation and after seizure, life before and life after. So you kind of came across some of the things doctor say is talking about, and maybe you can talk about. Yeah, what, what you were doing before and what your, what changed in your mindset, Dr. Martin, and then, and then what you're doing, how you're approaching this now.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was just not wanting to be a bad person. Like, I really, I'm an eye on the disc profile. Like, I love people. I love, I love to go out the end of the day, and people like me. I mean, liking is my currency. Like you like me. I'm good, you know, and I just was in that place where I felt like my staff didn't like me. I had a bad patient that, you know, cried or they, they got upset or they got angry. I mean, you get all these emotions as a dentist and man, you know, I, I, it just started to hit me like, I'm a doctor of dental surgery. DDS stands for Dr. Of Dental Surgery, not Doctor of Dental Psychology. And I find myself being a therapist and a psychologist and a tap dancer. And so when I was able to start just with oral sedation, which works well on a certain segment of that population, that was the entryway into it. And I realized, gosh, just a pill could help. What could IV do? And then it dawned on me that dental surgeons, oral. Oral surgeons all use IV sedation. They would never consider giving somebody a pill or local to take their wisdom teeth out. And it was just a. Is the light switch goes off, you're like, I'm a surgeon. I, you know, I need to step into that world and really be a doctor now. And I think that that was the mindset and it was just wonderful for me as a person to be able to go home at that day and know that every patient had a great experience because they're not going to remember it. And then I could go get my master's in the Academy of General dentistry, learn surgery, learn implants, learn sinus lists, like Dr. Sayer said, and truly come back and take my time and really practice that and become an expert at it. Because I wasn't tap dancing around, you know, somebody's discomfort in any way.

So, so how are you all utilizing sedation now with yourself, your doctors?

Well, we, we, we hired at one point full time medical anesthesiologists to see what that would be like. We went all the way to the top, had MDs working in the office and found that that was complete overkill. So then we backed down to nurses and then we went to paramedics in our office. So every one of our offices has a full time paramedic that allows us to operate in a sense with a sense of safety. They start our lines, they kind of manage our meds, they coach us on certain aspects of cardiac and things that we may not have as much of a comfort level with. So it's almost like having a mini ER in our office that as a resource that we can go to, to help keep things safe. But we also hold our doctors accountable for maintaining the highest standards of care in terms of, you know, taking patient safety is like paramount to the experience that works.

So, you know, you have to check with each state. I just want to make sure that that's something that we're all aware of. And EMTs may be allowed in your state, nurse anesthetists may be allowed in your state. You have to check on all those things. But in my office, we go from here all the way up. We do everything. We have a MD anesthesiologist that comes in at least once a week and does our full, you know, depending upon the case, depending on their medical problems, their special needs, their whatever. And so we do all that. And then all of the docs are certified in IV sedation to, you know, moderate sedation. So we handle the gamut from the beginning to the end, which is amazing. And we can just help everybody. We get referrals from oral surgeons, we get referrals from end to dos. We get referrals from University of Cincinnati because they can't get the patients in fast enough. We get referrals from everybody. You know, one of the main things about IV sedation is that it fixes a lot of your problems. And Chris, you'll probably expand on this, but, you know, you have problems getting staff in because, you know, dental assistance quite honestly sucks a bit and they're not always the happiest people. And you have problems with like, Insurance, you have problems with getting paid, and you have problems with finding new patients. And in financial. And the fact that you, as a, you know, small practice lead, you have so many hats to wear that you can't get your financial game in charge. Well, if you're doubling and tripling your, your average per patient, you can handle all this. The staff who's trained in IV sedation says, we're here for one thing. We want to keep these people alive. They get it. They're headed in one focus. You know, you don't have to worry as much about insurance and dental benefits because quite honestly, the patients that want to be taken care of and be comfortable are going to pay. The only thing they want to pay for is to be comfortable. They don't want to pay for their extraction. They want to pay for being comfortable, you know, and new patients. So as you go out there and every patient comes in and goes, I don't. The beautiful thing about IV sedation is the fact that the amnesia is there. They think they've had a general anesthesia. Would you agree, Chris? Yeah, they, they think they're done. They're. They had a fantastic experience and they would tell everybody. And so whether you advertise or not, your number of new patients goes up and then too many hats. Well, guess what? You can afford to have somebody do billing, you can afford to have somebody do insurance, you can afford to have somebody as Chris and I do with large staff. And, you know, we don't, we, we go home at night. Just go home at night. We're done.

Yeah, you can, you can kind of build in the talent there. There's, there's margin and, and for talent. Chris. Dr. Martin, anything you want to add to that? I mean, there's lots there.

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing he's talking about is niching down like, you know, we're, we don't want to become like medicine became where they're, they work for the insurance company, and if you don't offer a value add that's outside of that realm, you're. You're just going to end up going to work for, for the, for these guys. And they're, they don't, at the end of the day, they don't care about the patient experience. They care about, bottom line and, you know, cutting costs on supplies and cutting corners here and cutting corners there. Now, there are different organizations out there. I'm not throwing everybody under the bus, but I'm saying that if we go the way of the medicine. I just was with My internist yesterday and he said, Chris, medicine sucks. I hate it. He says, I would never encourage my kid to go into medicine. He says, I make 150, 000 a year. And he said, Chris, you wouldn't even walk in your door for $150,000 a year. And, and you know, I didn't say anything, but I just felt bad for him. He's 70 years old and he, he said that I owned a body shop for. I had four, man. He told me the story. I love this guy. He said, I owned four body shops in Raleigh. And he kept talking about his cars and his body shops and he said, I just do medicine because it's, you know, it just kind of gives me something to do. It's like a hobby. And I don't want to see dentistry go that way. And I think that that sedation care, implants, cosmetic, you know, things like Botox, I mean, we're not there yet, but like, we have to keep learning and offering things that are outside of the sign and drive, you know, and let the insurance companies market for us. I just believe it's the next level learning that we have to be able to do this, to have that tool in the belt to offer our patients or we're just going to be working for those guys. Yeah.

I have an entire story about Botox and IV sedation. If somebody wants to hit me up, I think it's a million dollar business overnight, but that's for a later conversation.

There's a lot of, a lot of good stories that wrapped up in there. Well, I'm careful because I'll ask you to come back, Dr. Sarah, and do another episode here. Okay, so, so, you know, I, the dentist that I talk to immediately a lot of times will have a lot of trepidation around it. Right. There's a lot of worry. So let's talk about who this is for and who it's not for. Probably right up front because I don't think you guys are saying this is for. Every single dentist should go and dental office should go and implement this. It's really important on the front end for people to know who it's for. So Dr. Sayer, you want to talk about where this works best and who this works best with?

Yeah, so I've trained, you know, 12 docs, I've. One has said, finally, you know, I don't want to do sedation and surgery. It's just too much stress for me. I said, great. We have a lot of people who apply to our system and we say, you know, we would like you to learn sedation and implants and extractions and. And they're like, no, I. I'm a general dentist. I don't want to do that. So there are a specific percentage of dentists who say, man, I, I really want to do this. And quite honestly, income is huge. If you want to do this, I mean, it's huge. I'm not going to go into that, but it's very substantial.

You can. I mean, just how many times more than a regular, you know, looking at

double their income minimum. Double.

Yeah.

And up to totally, you know, oral surgery. Ent. I mean, we're talking big, big, big numbers, right? You know, 600, 000 to a million. What? You know, I'll lay that one out there because that's your potential. Per dentist. Not per practice, per dentist.

That's. Associate. Doctors in these models can do that.

Yeah, yeah.

You don't have to own it. You can just come in and learn this stuff, and then you can go home, have a nice life, and work in a practice like Dr. Sayers and under a mentor. But you have to. I think the key is having a mentor like Dr. Sayre because you, you, you know, he's been toward me. I can't tell you how many times I've called him and said, hey, man, what about this medication, this interaction? He's like, well, I've done it for 40 years. It's never been an issue. And then it allows me to operate more safely for my patients and just for myself. But I think mentorship is key, getting the right education. You don't want to, like, learn at Dr. Dr. Sayers Vesper Institute because you're learning from somebody that's done it for 40 years. I wouldn't go learn. I think you can learn it at a GI clinic where they, you know, you're putting people to sleep with colonoscopies. But how does that really translate to a dental experience? It's not a dental experience. It's a GI experience. We always talk about the, you know, the oral cavity is the opposite end of the GI tract. Right. But it's very different.

You.

You need a different skill set to operate here than you need to operate down there. So I would say learn it from. From a place like Dr. Sayer. And it's. It's unique in the world. Like, you know, Dr. Say, do you mind if I pitch your place for you for a second?

Well, Dr. Martin. Yeah, I would love to. Let's just give some context. Right? So doctor Say You've, you started out doing this. I don't know. Where did you learn how to do this? Just real quick.

So I had a great, great, great residency. I did almost six months of in, in, you know, operating room anesthesia at Miami Valley Hospital in Dayton, Ohio. It was a. The cowboy days back in the 70s, and it was just fabulous. And so ever since then, I've been out doing sedation and, you know, I have an anesthesiologist, so I see. I personally do intubations every week to help her. And, you know, she's controlling the meds and it's just a great practice and it's fabulous. And so Vesper Institute was started a couple of years ago. We do all different kinds of continuing education, but our main focus is on sedation dentistry. We have some fabulous faculty. John Roberson, oral surgeon, And Jay Resnick, MD, DDS, oral surgeon. And then we have MD anesthesiologists on board. And we've got about six clinical GPs with over six years to 20 years of IV sedation. This is one of a kind thing in the country. Nobody's doing this. You basically go to hospitals and dental schools where they shove you into rooms where you do, you know, a couple of cases, half an hour each, and you have to do 20. We're doing real patients. We want you to do treatment and anesthesia. We want you to understand the entire concept. We do briefings and debriefings. We have 65 hours online, 24 hours in person, including mannequin. We call it Mannequin Monday. So the entire day you're doing emergency practice airway. Every, all day long, this is a different beast. And we want you to know something. 80. This is in the literature. This is in Malamed's book 87. So I'm going to round it up to 90. 90% of the docs who go out and take IV sedation do not use it in their practice. I, I think this is abhorrent. I'm absolutely against it. I'm not going to put up with it. We're here to change that. We're here to support you. Every month we're going to do clinics, you know, phone calls, get in touch with me, get in touch with other my staff. We are here to change this. My mantra for my practice is bring comfortable dentistry to everyone. And that's my passion until I get out of dentistry. So.

Well, I'd like to piggyback off of that, Jake, if I could, because, you know, every doctor that comes into our practice and learns IV Sedation. I guarantee you they'll never stop doing IV sedation. They just, they're. You can I ask them? I'm like, hey, how do you like it? And they're, oh, I love it. And I'm like, would you ever give up your IV ticket? And they're like, no, you'd have to pry it from my dead cold hands. That's how much I love. I don't want to do tooth at a time, you know, tap dancing around the feeling. Dentistry all the time now we still offer it. There are people that come through and Dr. Sarah probably say this. Sometimes they just want an occlusal. You don't have to be sedated for that. But we give nitrous to those people. I mean, they might come in with his Xanax or something. But I even. And this is interesting, guys, I just saw a tick tock Jake that there's a guy, I guess he's in New York, he's kind of gone viral. He has something called the dental bar and he has a speakeasy in his office. You go in this. Open this cabinet and it opened the door and there's a full bar back there. And he gives an alcoholic drink before the, before the visit. And I literally had a conversation with one of our associate docs today. And we're like, you know, one drink. It's a sedative. It's a depressed depressant. I mean, what's the. What's the negative? I don't know. But it was just. The world is kind of going that way. Dentistry is. It's nerve wracking, it's scary. Something edge off is what's really, what's

really interesting, Chris, is, you know, alcohol is a GABA receptor. So this is getting into the medicine. But the first drink liberates you and makes you more hyper. So I don't know where this guy is going, but he needs two or three drinks to make it work.

Yeah, we had that conversation. Like, is one the right number is. Because two can go sideways on you real fast.

Yeah.

Interesting conversation we were having about the medical aspect of these.

Yes. Yeah.

Yes. It makes. I mean, so Dr. Sarah, I mean, I knew what you were doing. For first of all, this is just the tip of the iceberg. The operation you've created is incredible. It's a legacy. If you're ever in Cincinnati and you know, I know sometimes even have people over and you can they kind of walk through the office and check it out. Definitely check out his offices. But so I know you're doing this. And then. Dr. Martin, I knew you were kind of doing. Doing this at scale. Really. I think that's the big difference, is you guys are doing it at scale with many associates. And I didn't know. So the Vesper Institute is new because I was like, I didn't know about the institute. Or you're bringing people in where they could, they could learn this.

But.

So you said it would open out a couple of years ago. And so people, you know, doctors can fly in. How does this work exactly?

Yes, they come in. So first of all, they take the 65 hours. Joy Cooper, who. I don't know if you'll put her name out there, but Joy Cooper is the president of the Vesper Institute, and she can take all of your questions and answer everything for you. But you come in to. Well, first of all, you do 65 hours online. The entire didactic program is online. A lot of these courses. You go there for two weeks to try and get everything out of it. So we're online. We've got this great system set up. And then you come in to see us for three days. It's usually Friday, Saturday, Sunday, maybe Monday, depending upon what you're doing. And then you can come back and do your clinical whenever you want. You can wait a month. You can wait a month and a half because the clinical is the big part of it. And it takes about a week to get 20 cases in. And the ADA said in 2016, you have to have this didactic, this clinical and this and this. We look at that as an absolute minimum. I would love for people to come in and work with my anesthesiologist and do an intubation and spend extra days if you can. I know everybody wants to get certified. The other thing is we help you with your state. Your local state has all kinds of restrictions. Everybody's different. And so we have a specialist in there that's helping with the state requirements. And yeah, it's just a great course and lots of camaraderie and hands on. One to one. One to one general dentist doing sedation with a general dentist. That's learning sedation. We don't believe in two and three and four. You know, you got three people in the oral surgery clinic, a resident there doing wisdom teeth, and you're not even pushing meds. You're just, you know, you're not doing anything. So.

Yeah. What's that?

Yeah, I know you've been up there a bunch.

Yeah, yeah. Dr. Sayer, you know, that's how we learn and that's one thing I love about the deo, Jake. You know, we've talked about this, where we get, we get. You gave me a list of names of guys on the west coast and Maya and I got a car and we drove all the way from LA to Seattle and visited Whitehall guys and, and, and DEO guys and got to learn the different ways. But that proximity, learning next to real practitioners, I think is the most important way to learn. You see that it's possible. You realize it can be done. And I think that's the key here. Learning it from somebody that's doing, doing it in the setting that you're going to be doing it in are very similar. I think it's the way to learn this stuff.

What any other. That's saying, any other, you know, kind of objections people have, doctors have, or just kind of hesitancies or other questions. You get a lot as people are starting to open their mind to, to this.

Well, I think the, the main thing is that it can, you know, do huge advantages for your patients, for your staff, for your practice and yourself. I mean, it's, it's, it's remarkable. It does take time. There's some money that's going to be invested, courses, you know, an expense, and then probably about roughly $10,000 to get the equipment, the EKG and the, the drugs and the meds and all the different things that you need. So it's not an inexpensive adventure, but it pays for itself pretty quickly. You know, if you can double and triple your case average, that's amazing. See, fewer patients and better cases. I don't care if you're a cosmetic dentist. What patient wants to sit in your chair for four hours while you're doing all these veneers, all these preps and everything else? They don't want to do it. They'll tell you they will, but they don't want to.

What percentage? Yeah, so like, let's say, you know, another office has a hundred patients. What percentage of them do you think, given this choice, would choose to do this?

50% right off the bat, just regular patients will tell you, I would like to be sedated for my root canal. I would like to be sedated for my simple extraction. I would like to be sedated for my implant all day. That's all we do. All day long. All day long. If you give them the choice, they will just accept it. Mrs. Jones. You know, it's because it's, it's. They want to pay for the sedation.

Well, I I must keep jobs. Dr. Sayer, Steve Jobs said, you know, people don't know what they want. You have to show them what they want. And once you, if it's valuable, they'll buy it. Right. And, you know, I call, I call regular dentistry. The flip phone. Would you like the flip phone or would you like an iPhone? Nobody's choosing the flip phone unless they're in a hurry and they don't want all the cool stuff. So I believe IV sedation is like showing people the I the magic of an iPhone, you know, and let them choose. Most people, if they've got complex needs, will choose IV sedation. And here's the thing that I think it's an opportunity cost piece. 50 of people don't go to the dentist. And one of the big reasons they do not go is because they're just a fit, great fear. If they knew this was out there as an option. I mean, I wouldn't go get a colonoscopy if I knew they were going to see me with my pants off, you know, and I had to be there, watch it all go down. Like, I still have to get it done every five years because my mom had colon cancer. But I want to be knocked out for that, you know what I'm saying? So I don't even get a choice. But a lot of people see dentistry as way worse than a colonoscopy.

Yes.

You know what I'm saying? And every colonoscopy is done with propofol.

Yeah.

You know, so, well, it's twofold. Right. There's people who aren't going into the dentist right now because they're afraid, and then that you present treatment and they say no because they're afraid.

I mean, fears they might be money or they say, I don't have time, but they're not telling you. You didn't give me an option of taking a nap.

Right?

That's right. That's right. And so it's, I mean, it's from both sides. Right. As much as it makes sense for the doctors, as much as it makes sense on business, the business side and referrals and everything, it also is what the customer is asking for. Right.

They don't ask for it when you, When I give.

I mean, until I, like, psychologically. Right. Like they want a solution to this problem.

Correct. Yeah.

When I give lectures on this, it's. It's more than obvious. So complicated, you know, you're not going to do wisdom teeth unless you're kind of crazy. Without sedation, you're not going to do sinus list without sedation. But you're also not going to do special needs. You're not going to do this, you're not going to do multiple extractions and three root canals and you're not going. So actually when you sit down and look at it, over 50% of the people, 36% of the people in the literature are afraid of the dentist. 16% aren't going to go, period. They're not going to go until they have to. In other words, they're like swollen in the hospital, blah, blah, blah. So when you put all these statistics together, it's more than 50% of the patients out there that need this. And guess what? These docs, these DEOs, they're not even seeing those people. They don't even know what's available. Do you want this much of the pie or do you want the whole piece?

Exactly.

Your choice.

Beautiful. Well, Vesper Institute in Cincinnati, Ohio, there's now a solution at scale. Like I said, I think you can do this one off and there's some ways probably to do it one off, but you want to go into a structured program that's going to get you ready. I mean, by the end, Dr. Sayer, you are without the equipment and there's some probably follow ups. Right. But you're ready to go after you've completed your full course. You can get into this. Any final? Yeah, anything final you want to. Anyone listening.

I would, I would definitely want to share a pain point that I think a lot of doctors run into is personal to me. And because I, I have a phobia and I'm the biggest wuss of somebody sticking me in the arm, you can shoot me in the mouth all day. I'm the opposite. You stick me in the arm, I get lightheaded and I want to do it myself.

Same.

I, I hate it. So I, that means I also hate sticking people. So I would say as an option, And I know Dr. Sarah has a little bit different take on it, all of our doctors can do IV starts, but we don't, we kind of suck at it in our practice. So for us, a big hurdle that we got over was hiring nurses, phlebotomists, medics that are very, very comfortable sticking people because they're used to sticking them on the back of a truck running down the road at 55 miles an hour. So for us, the hurdle of getting over doctors that were trepidatious about starting IVs or scared of starting IVs, it's a, it's A way to kind of help you jump start that IV thing by getting a hiring out somebody that's really comfortable starting IVs, and that can teach you how to do it office well, or if you get backed up and you can't get a needle stick. We found that having somebody that's done it thousands of times allows us to really access people that we have, obese people and people with spider veins, you know, challenging older patients that we do get stuck on sometimes. And I find that that's been helpful for us, maybe a little different.

I think that's a absolute real thing, Chris. And after 40 plus years of doing this, probably 30 to 40,000 cases, it's probably one of the best things I can do, is teach you how to do IVs and really make it work. You know, my anesthesiologist, she's been doing this 40 years also, and she comes to me and says, can you start this iv?

Yeah.

You know, so I've become really good at that. I'm not bragging, but it's just the way it is. So that's something we can show you at Vesper.

Yeah, 30 to 40,000 cases. What a career. That's amazing. Awesome. So reach out Vesper Institute. We'll go to the website. Reach out, you said Joy is a good place. She can answer a lot of questions, but, you know, it's pretty seamless just to get going. If this is something you're interested in, final words.

Dr. Sayer, I'm telling you, this is a savior for a lot of DEOs that are having financial problems. This is something you should put in your ball game. You know, X number of your docs need to do this. One in each city, one in each practice. It's a game changer.

Love it.

Dr. Martin.

Anything.

I would just give an open invite to anybody that wanted to call me. My number is 919-616-4008. If you're having questions about it, you know, just want to chat about medical history. I mean, just whatever, or come visit us. I think that again, you know, I've learned so much by finding mentors like Dr. Sayer. He's let me come to his office multiple times and bring staff. I think that we need to help each other in the profession to get better. It's not us against each other. There's too much of that in our profession. I hate it. I think the next level for us, you know, you get to a certain level in life, you realize, like, I don't own any of this. None of this was mine is I've been gifted to be able to make it this far in life, we got to give it away and, you know, within reason. But we would love to have host anybody that wants to come visit the office and just see what it's all about.

Jake, totally agree. If maybe at the end of this, if you can put Chris's information and my information out there and Joy's information, that would be appreciated because I totally agree. Anybody's welcome. Call us. Come and take a look.

All right. Beautiful. Paying it forward. Thank you to both of you. And we look forward to this being more available to a lot more patients as time goes on.

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