66: Stress Tools in a Crisis with Dr. Mark Bird and JD Stacey

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You have this natural talent, this unique ability. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of DSO Secrets. I'm your fearless host, Emmett Scott, and I'm here today with Dr. Mark Byrd and J.D. stacey. Thank you both for being here today. Dr. Bird. Mark, is it okay if I call you Mark? Tell us a little bit about your background and. Yeah, your background and what you do now.

I am a marriage and family therapist by trade. I have worked in residential treatment centers, in terms of outpatient programs, and in private practice. So I've seen kind of people through the entire levels of crisis in their lives. So I really understand kind of how to work at all levels of crisis based on that experience. Worked for years with addiction and really enjoy working with couples and families.

Well, thank you for being on today. And I mean, that's really why I pulled both of these guests in here, is because right now, we're obviously going through an obvious crisis, a global pandemic. But I thought this will be a great podcast for us to. To in other crises that we have, because I think how we respond, how we feel, doesn't require a global pandemic oftentimes to make that happen. There's other things in our life that drives that. So, anyway, I think the principles are the same, so I'm excited to dig into those. And jd give us a little bit about your background.

Yeah. Thank you for having me on. My training and development was in psychology, marriage and family therapy. Similar to Mark. I graduated, got my master's degree, then went on to get my clinical license. And my first job was in a drug and alcohol program doing counseling and therapy and day treatment, and then got into marriage and family therapy. Did that for about 12 or 13 years. And that led me into hospital administration, where I ran some psychiatric units and got into operations, which kind of led me into what I feel like my true passion is, and that's around organizational behavior, where you maximize human capital, so to speak, to use a business term. But really Just love culture and love what makes an individual and an organization tick. And so that's kind of what brought us here.

Now you're doing business development for community dental partners. Well, thank you both for being on. I want to step back here and really look at what's going on from a personal perspective, from a leadership perspective, et cetera, and really from a psychological perspective. Let me start with this question. When a crisis is happening, why do you think that self awareness is such an important part mark of having during the crisis, during the emergency?

So I guess there's kind of multiple levels on that. So self awareness happens in different ways. Sometimes just being aware we're in crisis, that the temperatures turned up pretty high and knowing what to do when we're in that higher temperature is an important thing. As we come out of that temperature to kind of like look at things in a more rational way, I think self awareness helps us to realize, okay, what's going on? What's the data I have in front of me? What are my thoughts? What are my feelings? How's that informing what I need to do with this situation? So I think there's kind of two places of self awareness. One is I am in that hotter zone where kind of survival oriented is and how do I get myself out of that? And the second is now that I'm out of that, like how do I get oriented to what I need to do? And so how do I get enough awareness from my own system to know how to move forward?

You know, I think when a crisis initially happens. Right. That fight or flight kind of kicks in. Right. And for entrepreneurs, oftentimes they're just like, dig in. What do I need to do to solve this? Others might kind of hunker down, et cetera. Why doesn't staying in that fight or flight mode, why can't you just kind of stay in that? Right. Cause that's the initial response. And frankly, with the media and everything else, it would be easiest to just stay in that mode. Where does that not serve us as well?

Well, the biggest dilemma is I don't think our system can maintain that for an extended period of time very successfully. And we're only looking at the data that's about how am I going to survive, not how am I going to thrive. How do I really handle this? And when I'm looking to fight, I might end up fighting against my partner or against my children or against my business partner or against my staff. That fight mode starts to ooze out on everybody, which then kicks them into survival Mode. And we get different responses. Some employees, we want to have step up and they freeze, and other employees just don't come to work. So what we're doing is just inciting a bunch of reactivity when we're in that state. And so the longer we're up there, the more we're apt to incite other people to join us in that same frantic mode instead of kind of joining them and working together.

Oh, go ahead, J.D.

i was going to say on that same note, I've always thought that and always felt that when you're going through a crisis, a crisis creates a vacuum, and it kind of draws you in and sucks you in. And the way you're used to managing it, that's what surfaces. And I always say that it's where character's revealed. And sometimes that's awesome. And sometimes your bad habits are what's revealed inside of that vacuum.

Yeah, great point. As you were saying that if you're in Fight or Flight, then you're kind of. I imagine you're almost like, just swinging around at everything. And initially you're hitting on the enemy, so to speak, and solving the problem. But then to your point, the whole reason you're doing it, maybe to protect your family or to protect your livelihood or et cetera, it sounds like if you don't get out of that pretty soon, you're actually destroying a lot of the things that you're trying to protect, which is the biggest challenge. Why is self awareness so challenging? And maybe there's a better word. I'm using the term self awareness. Being present, kind of having a state of mind where you're able to connect with others, you're able to clearly know how you feel and express it. Why is that such a challenge during a crisis? Let's say that I was doing it okay before. You're always working on it, but in a crisis, it tends to go out the window. Why can't I just stay in that same place? Because my feelings, it seems like, are pretty acute, so I should be able to articulate them.

Well, the first thing is generally when we're in fight or flight mode, we're not necessarily clear on. On assessing very well what the threat is. So some of our natural instincts, like, you know, when we're kids, we're taught stop, drop, and roll, right? If we catch fire, the natural instinct in that mode is to flight. What that does is it fuels the flames at a greater level. And so one of the dilemmas is oftentimes because we start out in a survival Instinct. We actually get more and more on fire and everyone around us, like I just said, gets on fire. So I think it's hard because there's different types of awareness we need to have. If I know I'm on fire, the only thing I can do is kind of automatically stop, drop and roll. I have to practice noticing that level of awareness so I can put the fire out, right? And in that moment, unless I'm running towards the ocean to jump in and put the fire out right, that movement is all working against me. So I think we have to have an awareness at that level of when do I switch into survival mode and what things do I have in place to make sure I'm using that in my favor rather than having it work against me on the other side of that, once I've been able to kind of put the fire out and then sit down, I think you have to have. And self awareness is a great word, just the ability to say I am my best resource and if I can value everything I bring to the table, the likelihood that I can bring that to a place like I normally can. I think during crisis, the biggest issue there is the normal resources we're used to working with. The structure in which we kind of function with that awareness is broken to pieces. And so we're left to set up our own structure in that environment. So left to our own devices, we don't do that very well. So in high school, we have the structure of high school and then we move on to college and have a structure. Then work gives us a structure and we just keep moving from pre kind of pre put together structure to pre put together structure. And so when crisis happens and that falls apart, we don't have the tools to go, oh, wait, how do I put that in place?

And you mentioned these structures, some parts of those structures help us to avoid certain conversations or not have to deal with certain relationships. Right. So things are tough at home. It's real nice because I can just go to work. Well, right now I can't go to work, right? So this is an interesting crisis because it's forcing, I think, a lot of people to have to deal with present relationships with an intensity level that they weren't expecting their March and April of 2020 to say, all right, address all your issues, go locked in a room, go. So definitely all of our escape mechanisms, if you will, have been stripped away from us pretty quickly here. Go ahead. Mark.

No, J.D.

no, I actually really love that, Emmett, because when you think about what has happened, and I know we're talking about very specific stressors, but we're going through something right now where the entire world has turned upside down. Normally in our normal lives we have areas where we excel and areas where we struggle and we get to kind of systematically take those on. You're talking about something where everything has changed. Where every relationship now where I was going to work and had time to process and do things, now I get it now I'm home. And in many, in some circumstances. So because you use different skill sets when you're in crisis problem solving mode, it allows you to push everything else to the side and get real focused and take care of that. But what happens when every part of your life is in that mode? Because you're right, one of the first things to go is the way you treat yourself and the way you treat others around you. So that's. And I'm just kind of going back to what Mark said about self awareness. That's why self awareness, I think is so critical. You have to really appreciate what is being asked of you, what we're dealing with compared to how I know, because this is unusual and we're not always giving our best stuff to those around us in this kind of a situation.

Yeah. What I'm excited about having this podcast cut here is because these are the same emotions though that can happen when an industry moves and you have to change everything. Right. This is the same thing that could happen when a relationship falls apart and you have to change everything. So I think the tools that we talk about here and even just the clarity of mind of what's happening to you personally, I think is applicable. This is obviously a unique situation on some degrees, but in others it's something we're experiencing all the time is constant change. I mean, even those who you could say, well, so and so is still going to work. Yeah, they're going to, you know, let's say the grocery store checker, right. Still gets to go to work every day. But I mean, the work has totally changed. Right. The franticness there, the fears around coronavirus, it's under duress. There's nothing really for anyone that's the same right now. And maybe in some ways that's the only good thing about this crisis is we're all in it together, versus oftentimes we feel like we're all alone and we're the only one experiencing it. So go ahead, Mark.

Adding to that, I think you got stay at home parents, moms or dads that are accustomed to a kind of similar structure. Right. So While we're talking about business now, we have moms or dads who've been at home, and they have the structure of kids going to school or nap time or all these things that are going on. They're also in a similar place where all that structure is lost. They didn't get to go to work, but they might have had time to exercise or breathe or maybe think about something besides screaming babies. So we're seeing that across every. The home environment is completely wiped with structure, too. So that's even adding more to this.

Well, and that leads into the next one, which is the shame and guilt that kicks in next. Right. Because we have this interesting expectation on ourselves, oftentimes subconscious, that, yes, everything is changing, but my responsibility is to still be amazing, still support my children well, still support my spouse well. And though verbally to them we might say, well, you don't know the stress I'm under. We might lash out, et cetera. Inside, we feel a lot of shame and guilt for how we're handling this, or we're feeling shame and guilt for because we're laid off right now, or we're feeling shame and guilt because we had to lay somebody off. I mean, there's really no escaping it at this point. What do you think are useful tools as we're processing through that? If you're the mom at home saying, man, I thought I loved my children right now, I don't know what to do with them or any of those other scenarios. Where do you go first?

So first, I distinguish between shame and guilt. Shame is typically one of the survival emotions. Shame and anger show up a lot when we're in that survival mode. And the message of shame is, I'm broken. Something is innately wrong with me, and I'm not worthy of love and belonging anymore because I can't do X, Y, or Z. Whereas guilt says, I'm not doing something right for me, I'd like to be functioning better. So how do I get that structure set up in my house so I have a structure I can count on because I don't have that anymore, and I need to find it right? So guilt can kind of push us towards change in a positive way, in a way that is integral for us and right for us. Whereas shame tends to just heat more crap on us. In fact, in the addiction world, we call that shooting on yourselves. Because that tendency to just put more and more heaviness on top of yourself is. That's just super destructive. And so saying, I should be able to function better this Or I should be doing this in this way. What's wrong with me just changing that language ever so slightly that this isn't working for me right now? I need something different. What do I need and how can I get that in my life? Like that little shift to what do I want and what is it that's right for me and how do I seek to find that can shift us out of that, like should heavy, heavy, heavy into like, oh, I can move forward now. So I think just being able to distinguish between those two emotions and how one pushes us down and back and the other one tends to help us look ahead and move forward as our own values are guiding us.

And there's a lot riding on this. When you feel this shame and guilt in some of our cases, we're business owners, we're heads of households, there's people looking to us as leaders, providers. And so there's some guilt probably in many regards of I've let my family down, I've let my staff down, I've let my, I mean my co workers down. And so there's a tendency here, if you're not careful, there's all kinds of weapons you can go pick up to really beat yourself up with right now. That's what's truly in my opinion. One of the bigger challenges of something like this is you want to go find the ways that you might have failed or you should have done better.

Right.

If I as a business owner would have only saved more money and perceived that this was all going to happen then X, Y and Z, if I personally would have been better at A, B and C, I would have been more prepared for something like this. There's just so many things that we can go And I love the buckets you created, Mark, where the shame bucket seems like you're putting on yourself. One, you're not at all self aware or appreciative of the stress you're feeling. You're just saying, I'm going to ignore the fact that I'm dealing with that I still should be today already perfect at these things. Right. It feels like guilt is more of like a signaling mechanism of saying, okay, I need to start making some progress here. But the timing there is very empathetic. Right. So I don't have to be there tomorrow, but directionally I want to get better at this. Is that a pretty big distinguishing mark is like, am I supposed to be there today or eventually?

Yeah, definitely. And I'm just thinking one of the dilemmas with shame is it cracks our identity wide Open. If we built our identity on our profession or on our success as a mom or dad or whatever it is, and a pandemic comes and takes away any power we have, suddenly one vision of me gets cracked into pieces. And if I can't be the one who provides in this wonderful way for my family, I have a brother in law who's doing less hours as a radiologist right now because of the pandemic. And if his only definition was can I give my, my myself X amount of money for my family? And now he can't do that. Something's broken in him now, right? That's his, that's going to be his belief. So as we, as we hit spots where we're super capable and our structure is such that we look really good to the outside world, things like this cause us to go inward and say what really matters, which is wonderful, right? If we can do that, if we're struggling to do that, then we're alone and we isolate even more. Just we don't want people to see that we're failing. And then that creates more shame.

And Emmett, you and I have even seen some of this in the dental space. There are dentists that we've talked to who are asking themselves, should I keep doing this? Should I walk away from this? And so because we forget that there's so much, I mean, we measure ourselves so unfairly, sometimes we feel like because I wasn't perfect at bookkeeping or I wasn't perfect at this or this, we'd really start to question our core and am I really cut out for this? So I feel like it's important to just be aware of some of this stuff is totally out of your control, some of this. And so learning how to manage what's in your control versus out of your control I think is a big step in figuring out how to work through some of this shame and guilt.

Can I say one thing about what you said, Emmett? You talked about that if only I had, you know, during a pandemic there's a lot of grief and loss during a crisis of any type. And one of the stages of grief is bargaining. So we have sadness, denial, sadness, anger, bargaining and acceptance. And bargaining is that process of either looking backwards or looking forwards. So I'm going to look back and if only I had, I could have changed this, right? Or we look forward and say, come on God, will you just save me and I'll do everything right again. So that's a type of bargaining that's happening because there's a Grief process. Everything that I thought I had in the right place, now I've lost. And so to me, just accepting you're in that stage, the awareness to know, oh, this is a loss. And now I've got to figure out how to get to a stage of acceptance where I'm not trying to change the past, which I can't do. I'm just looking towards the future to make the changes I can make now. So just to be aware that in any sort of crisis, there's always going to be some type of grief going on in the background. And that looking backwards to kind of see what I could have done differently is using all our energy to change nothing versus looking forward to say, what can I change now that's more of an acceptance place.

Well, that leads us into kind of this third concept, which is empathy. Typically when we think about empathy, we're thinking about being empathetic towards other people. But I think, Mark, the framework you just laid out is really that first step of being empathetic towards yourself, understanding that there are going to be these stages. And sometimes what can happen is someone's a little farther along and they're grieving than you are. And then you go back to that shame part of like, oh, why aren't I already where they're at? Right. So having that empathy, where do you think first on an individual basis, where does that give you power? Because I think at some point people feel so powerless in a crisis, they kind of want to get some level of power back. And, you know, they're dealing with this shame piece and maybe they're lacking some self awareness. Can empathy solve some of these things?

Definitely. A piece of empathy requires that you acknowledge that you're human. And so for those of us who like to pretend we're perfect or inhuman, it's really hard to get to empathy in those moments. So there's a shift from I have to be God and I have to be everything to I can't possibly be this, and how am I still worthy if I can't be all this? And again, I think these crises are great times to challenge people to growth, but they're also very difficult times for them to say, I'm so much more than just a businessman or just a dad or just whatever your definition of yourself is. And empathy says, I'm allowed to feel what I feel, and then if I can accept I'm feeling that, then I can figure out what to do with it. Until you can get kind of that empathy for your own emotions, you're Going to be stuck in the yuck of the feeling rather than the forward movement of that. So very important.

JD what would you say to somebody who says, yeah, I want to do what Mark says here, but if I sit back and really am empathetic to myself, I'm going to totally collapse. I won't be able to lead my team. Right. Like, if I take the time to figure out what I'm feeling emotionally, I'm scared that I might open a box that I can never close again, and I'll just be in the fetal position in the corner of my office or at home, Right. And just saying, I agree, it is all terrible, and I have no clue what to do. Right? So what would you say to somebody who's scared to open that up?

Will I be able to turn it off again? Is the concern, you know, as Mark was talking, and if you'll indulge me for just a minute, it reminded me of a story that I heard Stephen Covey once tell. And he was riding a subway, and he was on his way to do a. He was presenting a seminar to several Fortune 500 companies. And as he was preparing, he said there was a father with several young children that came and sat down on the subway. And the father sat down across from him and immediately put his head back against the wall and closed his eyes. He said his three children proceeded to run up and down the subway, yelling, screaming and disrupting. And Stephen Covey said he felt himself getting angrier and angrier. And he could see people around were getting visibly upset by this, to the point where Stephen Covey, he said, I couldn't help myself. I said to him, can you please your children? You can see they're disrupting. And the father, I'm paraphrasing, of course, the father looked at him and he had red eyes. And he said, you're right. I suppose I should do something. We just came from the hospital. My wife, their mother, just passed away. And to be honest with you, I don't know that they're quite sure how to handle it. And to be honest with you, I'm not either. And so what it teaches me is how powerful compassion is. Because from that moment on, Stephen Covey said, I saw this man differently. Compassion, to answer your question, finally, Emmett, is such a powerful, powerful leadership tool. Compassion is what gives us the ability to really look past words and to look at what a person is feeling. And compassion allows us to have real conversations. It's okay to hurt. It allows you to feel, but it also allows you to Process in a healthy way.

Yeah, it's awesome. It's a powerful story on that change of perspective that happens through that empathy and compassion. So how does that empower you as an individual then Mark, to like, if you see yourself that way. Right. Does that give you more strength? Because it's easy for a type personalities to believe that that's great and I'll feel that way about that, dad, but I don't need to feel that way about myself.

So I think one of the dilemmas is in my experience, having somebody else you can turn to that you trust does a lot to open up empathy for yourself. When someone could witness my experience, I feel like if they can see me, I can see me. Right? So I think it's really hard in a vacuum to be a rock and an island and be empathetic to yourself, because to be a rock, you have to survive on your own. So admitting that you need others is a precursor to self empathy. If you know, I need other people, it's a lot easier to go, yeah, I can't do this all on my own. That's why I have a whole staff. That's why I have a wife or family that I can turn to. So kind of a precursor to empathy is admitting that you need others and then turning to them and kind of letting them help you see that it's okay to be where you are. And I think that's a tool that's tough. As far as a lot of the people we're talking about that are going to have problems with feelings, I call thinkers. They all stay up here and they don't like to go down here. And to me, the most useful way to look at feelings is diagnoses. If you're a thinker, to go, oh, like when I take my car to the shop and I get it diagnosed, no one freaks out, no one goes,

oh my gosh, this is the.

But emotions are very diagnostic tools. So if I'm feeling powerlessness, that means I'm focused on things I don't have power over. I can't change the past. So where can I find power? I can start looking for it. Where does power lie now? Right. So that's a diagnostic tool. If I'm feeling alone, I need some connection. How do I go out and find that? Right. So every feeling we can find isn't about staying floating around in that like, abyss, which feelers tend to do. Oh, I have feelings. I want to stay here forever. Right. It's about a balance. I can acknowledge it, but I can also See, it has real value to push me towards the things that I want in my life. So to me, kind of converting yourself into more of a middle of the road person, where I can see feelings are important data, they're valuable and I can shift gears from that feeling into a place of empowerment or connection. And if I don't have that, I can't really figure out where to go next. Those feelings are really helpful. So it's obviously a process to know how to feel. When I was young and I felt powerless, I would just erupt and argue that that wasn't a very good response to my powerlessness. Right. So it's about. And I know, Emmett, you might be saying, yeah, when I was young, because I still have pieces of that. But anyway, it's learning to better and better develop the skills to kind of fix the car. Once I acknowledge what's happening, that's not working quite right. What are my tools to kind of evolve into a fix for that scenario that's now happening with the vehicle? Me.

Well, what I love about that again is the fear of thinkers is that I'm going to finally go ahead and allow the feelings out and then they will overwhelm the system and I'll never be able to get back to my comfortable place of being a thinker again. I think, yes, there could be an emotion surge that's under there. Yes, there can be some crying and tears, or there may not be, but ultimately it's going to turn into a diagnostic tool. Ultimately, it's actually going to empower the thinking side who probably is missing because of lack of self awareness. It's missing that input. Right. So by allowing that emotion to come up, you're actually going to inform the brain and the thinking side. Like, hey, here's the parts of the engine. You've been driving around listening to the clunking, trying to go faster and faster. Then you ran into something, but you're just gonna continue to go forward if you'll stop, just run this diagnostic, I can tell you what to fix and boom, we can be back on the road going even faster.

Right. And in those cases, that's the. Not only do we need the ability to have someone to witness that we're feeling it as we share that. But we also sometimes need a mechanic, somebody who knows whether that's a therapist or a consultant or somebody we just have a great relationship with that can give us guidance and information we may not. My mechanic comes, he gets a P4 reading and I have no idea what P4 means. He goes to his manual. He goes, oh, that's this. We can fix it in this way. And I'm like, oh, that seems a lot less overwhelming now that we understand the problem. So, again, connection is such a critical part of being able to manage those things we're unwrapping and making sure we have those resources around us as tools. That's an important element that always makes coping with those feelings less of an abyss and more doable.

And I think, even from a leadership standpoint, that compassion impacts both parties as a leader and as the person you're talking to, whether you're talking to a doctor, a staff member, it doesn't matter. If you've had a staff member who's clearly struggling and not doing their. And you can see their job is starting to be threatened by the way they're acting. I found compassion is actually very, very helpful to all sides because if you bring them in and you just start railing on them versus if you bring them in and say, hey, I've noticed this and this are going on. Is everything okay? And I've noticed totally different reactions. And what it did is forced me to look at that person in a very different light. And then we have a different conversation of, yes, I'm actually struggling with this part of my life and this part of my life. And it allows me to say, I'm worried about you, because if you don't fix this, you probably. It's not just, you'll lose this job. You'll probably lose the next two jobs after this. I want to help you fix it. So it really does impact the overall relationship, the conversation, but it changes the way you approach people. It's just a one. It's an important part of leadership.

Well, it's a good example, too, in case anyone's like, well, empathy is just too soft. I mean, you just gave an example of empathy being used for accountability. Right? So. So I think it's a powerful tool. I love the diagnostic. I love the ability to utilize it on multiple fronts. Let's talk about jd. You kind of talked about using it with someone else. Now, let's say that you have. I'll give kind of a relevant one. Let's say you have a spouse who says, hey, I think that this crisis is really no big deal, and I don't know why you're freaking out so much. And then somebody else who says, you know, we're all going to die and this is scary, et cetera. And I don't think you need COVID 19 for that to be Happening that happens on a regular basis in a lot of relationships, right? Where it's like, this is the worst thing ever. It's going to affect our children for the rest of their life. Someone else, like, nah, it's not a big deal, it's just a phase. And you're always trying to find that balance. In what ways do you think empathy helps in this situation?

So if I can give a definition of empathy from my perspective, Brene Brown gives a really good one. She's got a video. You just type in. Brene Brown empathy. It's a four minute little segment, but it's the ability to connect with feelings in myself that you might be experiencing and a non judgmental way. So I'm not. And what most of us do when we're in crisis is we go pretty extreme. So it's pretty common with a lot of the couples I work with where one partner's on that this doesn't matter at all. And the other person's on that this matters so much. And they're just, they're extremely on each other. And if someone can just step in and say, wait, so tell me what's

going on for you?

Let me be curious, right? Instead of judging your perspective, which I think if I go into your perspective, I lose all my credibility, right? If I try and listen to what you're feeling, then I can't have boundaries. I can't say what you can do, which is not true.

That's what people believe is if they take that step out of their extreme, they'll lose their position, they'll lose their fighting position.

But the reality is empathy protects us. And so let me give you a little story about that. So I don't know if you know about the Houston Astros, the fiasco that happened with them, but they were, they had somebody. I read an article, they had some. Somebody was, was reading the pitches before they came, they were reading the signals and they would bang on like a trash can, which would get lost in the noise of the stadium to give the batter exactly what pitch is coming. And so they were, they were ahead of the game, guys who were single hitters were hitting home runs. I mean, it was just a really amazing stretch. And then they got caught kind of after the fact. To me, that is empathy, being able to read the signs. So you know what pitches are coming. I can predict what my patients are gonna do. I can predict what my employees are gonna do. I can predict what my spouse is gonna do. Like knowing all that in advance, just think how much power you have to make choices around. But if you don't understand why they're pitching, the way they're pitching, or where they're coming from, you can't really be prepared for whatever's coming at you. And very few people realize that. Having that capacity to see others feelings actually gives us an inside view on the pitches. So when they're coming at me, if I'm aware of why they're doing that, I'm going to be less reactive. I know exactly what's coming. Why do I need to freak out? I know what to do with this. So to me, first thing you have to do is say, being empathetic does not lose me anything. It actually gains me perspective, a greater power to win in the context of a win win relationship. Not just win, the other people lose. But. So I teach all my clients empathy, first and foremost is protective. And when we know how to protect ourselves, we can lean into that. So if I have an employee who's freaking out and I can say, tell me what's going on. The second I start to understand their story, it's like, okay, no wonder your behavior is erratic if you're seeing it this way. That makes total sense to me. So what can we do? Because that behavior is not okay, but I don't want you to feel that way either. Try and brainstorm together. Right? So it's no longer either he can have the behavior or the feelings. It's wait, what do we do with both of those? It just takes a higher level of willingness to look at the big picture. But in my mind, if, you know, this is in the end gonna protect me and allow me to get what I need out of this as well as others. It's just a very wonderful skill.

So Mark, you said something in the beginning that could help on the tactics there. You said something like being able to recognize their, the feelings that they're having inside of you. Right. So maybe I'm not feeling the emotions they are around this tactical thing, right. Or this strategic thing, but I probably felt those feelings. Right. So. So is that a technique is to basically connect it to another instance in order to understand there, you know, I'm not scared about this, but I have been scared before and I know what that feels like.

And if you can, the dilemma is who wants to feel fear when they don't have to? So it's often really hard to go, why would I touch on a scary place in my life? I'm not doing that. You're weird. We just. So it requires that ability to say we all have feelings. My feelings won't overwhelm me, but if I touch your feelings and those feelings overwhelm me, like my feelings overwhelm me, I'm not going there, right? So again, my own ability to be connected to and aware of my stuff is a precursor to me being able to be empathetic to you so I don't get lost or overwhelmed.

It comes back to your own self awareness and empathy in order to reach out to others. J.D. anything you'd add to that?

I really love what Mark said and specifically around fear because I think that is some of the reason we do get stuck and we do get lost. Fear. Fear is one of those things that are a part of life and I don't know many people, if any, that really enjoys feeling fearful. But fear can be helpful. Fear gets us to act, but it also, fear is one of those things that you got to be careful because you also can't allow it to run the show. The tools that we've been talking about today, I mean, this is a, we're going through stuff and we can bring it back to everyday life, but we're going through stuff right now that are going to naturally create some incredibly uncomfortable emotions because this is now about getting to a better place emotionally, getting quicker to the areas where we can control versus worrying about all the things that are out of our control. And fear is going to try and constantly push you into a place where you're feeling out of control and worried about the wrong things. So those are my primary concerns.

You both almost hit on the two sides because I think when we think about empathy, right, it's the person who's acting and looking strong being empathetic to the one who's fearful and weak. But kind of what you just said, jd, there's some real value if you're feeling fear to have some empathy towards the person who's feeling strong because you might get something out of that, right? Like, hey, you seem like you're really strong and you're feeling good about this. Kind of walk me through what logically is getting you there, right? Because obviously I'm interested in not staying in fear. That can be tough. I mean that takes a lot of courage because if you are feeling fear, you probably would like someone to be empathetic towards that. So, you know, both of these sides though have an opportunity. It's like who's who wants to take the power position first. But whoever goes for empathy wins for the group, honestly.

And interestingly, as I think of that, the extreme we have the person who doesn't see the pandemic as any problem at all, and the person who maybe they're married to that sees it the exact opposite. Right. So this person's in fear of the pandemic, and this person's in fear of the person that's in fear of the pandemic. They're actually both in a position of fear, but they don't know it. And so instead of saying, I'm scared this is going to take us here, and you're scared it's going to take us there, they've lost an opportunity for connection around, you know, and that lack of curiosity about each other's perspective and fear prevents them from coming together to a middle place. So in reality, often the thinker, the one who's less worried, is like, you're irrational and da, da, da. But they're just overtaken by fear, too. They just. They can't see it because they see that irrational behavior over there as the problem rather than my irrational reaction to your irrational reaction.

Right, right. Yeah. If I'm so logical and confident, why can't I be empathetic towards the rest of the people who are maybe fearing at that? And again, I think this application, all you have to look past, you know, two months ago where we didn't have a pandemic and we could pull out 20 things that were, you know, fell into this exact same bucket. So it's definitely not something that requires something at a global level. Well, we're kind of short on time. Let me just transition to one thing that I think is worth touching on, which is kids. So we kind of look at kids and we say, okay, these are all adult conversations. But I noticed with my kids very quickly that they were showing some anxiousness.

And.

And to be honest, I thought, as we often do, that everything that was going on at work and so forth, I was kind of keeping at work, though that wasn't true at all. And they were getting out of school, so they probably would think of this as being very positive, et cetera. And I had kids that reacted different ways. But I think understanding what's the right way to approach kids, because it can be difficult to say, you know, depending on their age, to say, yeah, there's this global pandemic. I don't know, you know, I don't know what's going to happen and we're all going to die doesn't feel like the appropriate approach. But not addressing it at all and saying, oh, don't worry about it, it's Fine. Yeah, I know everything's closed and we have to stay at home, but that's really no big deal. You know, our kids are a little smarter than that. So just thoughts on maybe the best way, maybe some language or scripting as we think about talking to people.

It may be too simple, but to me you're gonna do the same thing you would do to the employees. Hey, there's been a lot going on. You guys have been here at home. Tell me what's been going on for you. I have a feeling sheet I always give people. People don't always like it, but. And just say, how are you feeling about being at home? There could be good, there could be negative. How can I help you? What can we do to make this the best experience for you? And if there's a lot of fear, how can we find you some power around all this? So to me, you're just going to go as a parent very curiously and try and see into your kids lives, their feelings, their experience. And some of those kids are going to be more thinkerish and you have to be patient with that and try to understand what feelings are behind those thoughts. And others are going to be just big blobs that can't put words to things and trying to find that middle ground with them and teach them like. And then on my end, just normalizing, I feel some of those feelings too. How are you dealing with those? And so you go right into what are some fixes we could put together for you to make this a better time. So again, just that skill of I'm not going to fall apart if my kid's having a rough time, I'm going to move in and say, how are you dealing with this? Leave it open for them to tell me and then say, how can I be there for you? What do you need from me? Again, all that's in the first couple weeks. I just was like, there's too much chaos. Go to your room. Recently I felt less of that. And I'm like sitting at the lunch table with my one son and said, how you dealing with this? Being kind of more isolated. And we had what I thought was a pretty decent conversation anyway and it gave me some insights into what's going on for him. And I really want him to know I love him and that I don't want him to be alone. That might be easier with a kid than an employee, obviously, but just being willing to show that you care in that way. Again, it's a reiteration of what we've already Discussed.

Yeah, it's awesome.

I totally agree. I feel like we do our kids a disservice if we just try and pretend that everything is cool. I feel like I've had some. And I know that Mark and Emmett, we all have. We're all family men. We all have lots of kids. I have five of my own. And whether my kids seem like they were doing well or poorly, I've had regular conversations with them just to talk through. Because the best part about this is, and Mark brought this up, is when you are validating someone, when someone's talking about how they feel, your job is not to fix it. Your job is not to jump in and try and make it all better. Your job is to sit back, listen, and validate how they feel. And it's okay and it's normal and there's going to be time because this is an opportunity. I've had some really cool experiences with my kids talking this through, and I've been actually stunned because as they've had a chance to process their feelings just the way they started to think it through, they've just. This is where some of the. I've watched some of their leadership emerge. And so I'm a big proponent of talking and then listening and validating. Don't rush into fix. Let them process. It's amazing what happens.

Well, you guys have been awesome. I really appreciate this. Yeah, Mark, give us another thought.

Just one real quick caveat. Walking into your kids to try and get them to be open to you can be very painful. Again, if you don't know how to protect yourselves. Be careful when you go in thinking, my kid's gonna talk to me and this is gonna be wonderful, and like, no, probably my kid's gonna be like, if you don't go in prepared, then you kind of go and you're vulnerable and I'm trying to love you and then I'll fix you. You don't talk to me that way. So just a caution as you try and lean in. You have to know how to protect yourself first. And if my kid doesn't respond well, I tried. I tried to reach out. I can follow up later when he's in a better or she is in a better state. Like, just a really important warning for parents who are already in chaos and trying to manage their feelings. Be prepared for some kickback from kids because they're not always in a great place to try and be open. And often that's a test to see if you'll be open really. And if it's really about them or if it's about you. So that costs.

Well, it goes back to that original principle. Like if you just listen to this and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm a terrible parent, I need to go talk to my kids and you're walking in with shame and then they respond that way. That's why I never talked to you. You just reversed it on them and shamed on them. So yeah, I think going back to that self awareness with yourself, I love, Mark, that you said, hey, first couple weeks is like, go to your room. I just got to deal with everything myself. Like, you gotta be real about some of that. And then slowly, you know, through empathy, start making those next steps out. And I think someone could re listen to that part around kids and just think of that as team members. Like you mentioned, Mark, you know, like, I've laid somebody off and now I want to reach out and be empathetic. That could be a really scary component. If I do that out of shame, then we're going to be, you know, we could be in a tough spot if they respond similarly. But if I'm doing it saying, hey, you're still part of my team, I'm still looking to the future, et cetera. There could be some really good opportunities here. So I love this. I really appreciate you guys being open. I feel like we could do this a couple more times around some things and maybe we should because I think at the end of the day, every business is a human connection business to some degree. And these are skill sets and capabilities that don't come as naturally sometimes to some of us high achievers. Thank you all so much. I really appreciate it. And for those who are listening in, if you want more information or ask more questions to Mark or jd please come to our Facebook site, DSO Secrets. And until next time, keep smiling.

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