84: The Value of Building Core Values with CFO Patrick Nelson

Welcome to DSO Secrets. I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur in the dental industry. I've had my ups and downs, just like you. There's so much opportunity to be excited about, but so few resources to get answers. From here on DSO Secrets, we get you those answers so you can change the lives you're meant to bless and achieve your personal success.

When I was working as an associate right out of school, I never imagined I could own these many practices with this amount of support. So thank you.

You have helped build my marketing mind

to a whole new level. You have this natural talent, this unique ability.

Happy day to you and welcome to another episode of DSO Secrets. I am Ken Kaufman, your host today, filling in for the illustrious Emmett Scott. I'm excited to introduce today's guest, CFO Patrick Nelson, an MBA from BYU in Strategy and finance, and he's currently serving as the CFO of Platinum Dental Group. Patrick, welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks, Ken. Great to be here. Appreciate it.

Excited to have you. And I think you've got some great insight to share with the listeners of the podcast. First question to kick it all off. So, Patrick, what is it that led you into this amazing DSO industry? And why in the world are you still here?

Oh, my gosh, great questions. It's so funny. You can never predict your career going forward. You can only connect the dots. Going back, I was working at a software firm, Symantec. I was a product manager for Norton Antivirus. And all the while, a very good friend of mine was buying failing, bankrupt, distressed dental practices in Utah. And I thought that was the craziest thing you could do. So I reached out and said, hey, let's work together. So we kept in touch for a few years, and over time, we decided to make it happen. So we created a position, kind of carved out a partnership. I relocated from the Bay Area, California to Utah with my family, and jumped headfirst, jumped into it. We had no idea what we're doing at the time. I was early 2015, and, you know, we've learned a few things along the way, but we still. Some days we feel like we don't know what we're doing, but it's a fun business. It's been such a challenge at times, it's been stressful, but it's been so rewarding to look back these last five and a half years to see what we've built, what we've grown, the relationships we've created over time with our. With our doctors, with our doctor partners and team members, and that's what keeps me here because I have a sense that we're growing something and that's really exciting to.

Oh, that's fantastic. What a great story. So in order to allow our listeners to get to know you a little bit, we've got kind of some quick questions to go through as well as the purpose for going through these questions is so our listeners can be familiar with you and some of the things your firm does and how you are organized and your growth strategy and what software you use so that we can facilitate some networking where it would make sense. As listeners are, you know, listening in, they may find some commonalities to reach out and connect on.

So let's start over this.

How many total locations do you have now?

We have 20 locations. 17 are located in Utah, three in Colorado.

Outstanding. And how many full time doctors does that equate to?

That equates to. Oh my gosh. This is a constantly growing number. But we have 32 to 34 full time doctors along with five part time specialists that travel to our locations.

Oh great. And specialists. So oral surgery, orthodontics, what specialties?

Yep, those two. Oral surgery, ortho, endo and perio.

Very nice. So you mentioned at the beginning and getting into your growth strategy, you mentioned that the business was kind of started on this premise of buying, you know, distressed or you know, perhaps even, you know, bankrupt dental practices. Has that continued to be your growth strategy? Have you done some de novos as well?

Yeah, great question. We have. We have primarily stuck to the practices that are struggling in some form or fashion now. Whereas in the early days we took over bankrupt practices, you know, dentists who are six months late on rent, behind in vendor payments, etc. We don't target those practices anymore. We'll target the practices that have a patient base that have eight plus operatories and that have history in the community, but that are underperforming. So it depends on the practice, but that could look like a $500,000 annual revenue practice all the way to 1.1, 1.2 million depending on the number of providers. So that's kind of our, that's our sweet spot. We look for practices with patient bases with the facilities that are underperforming. And we feel like we do a pretty good job at taking those kind of mediocre practices and turning them into successful multi specialty practices.

Very nice. So it's really a value play, but not just buying at a good price, but, but it's also adding value through some of the expertise and skillset that Your platform has built out, it sounds like. Is that right?

Absolutely it is. You know, different groups have different strategies, but a key piece to our strategy is, yeah, we want to buy. Right. But we feel like given the right practice, we can dramatically improve the operations and the financial performance of the practice.

That's awesome. Great. So right, as of right now, in your CFO role, what departments do you have that are reporting to you?

Yeah, so I have the core financial operations team reporting to me. That includes purchasing, accounting, financial reporting, and that includes four people they report to me. I also have the revenue cycle management team reporting to me, including our credentialing team. Currently that includes eight individuals, six billers and two folks over credentialing.

Very nice. Okay, are you cash basis or accrual basis accounting at this point in time?

We're accrual and we report all of our financials accrual basis. However, for our internal discussions, we share our P&Ls with all of our team members. That includes the doctors, whether they're partners or not, the office leaders, the rest of the team. We share all of our PNLs. We share those financials on a cash basis. So that's. Those are for internal management discussions to discuss opportunities and trends. But from an external standpoint, we're fully accrual based.

Okay, great. And do you have external stakeholders that are requiring that or is that just what you found to be best? Best practice?

We have one external stakeholder two years ago. Maybe we can do this later, but two years ago we took on some mezzanine debt. It was really growth capital, no warrants, no equity. So we took that those funds to grow, acquire more locations. That stakeholder requires monthly financial reporting. But the larger trend is, listen, as we grow, I think the more appropriate way to report financial statements will be on accrual basis for our future financial partners.

I couldn't agree more. That's great. All right, so let's jump into software. What are you guys using for practice management? Right now?

All of our locations are an open dental and that is one of the hard and fast requirements that we have when we onboard a new practice. We move the, we move them to open demo.

Okay, great. And then what about accounting? What are you using

now? We are using Sage Intact, which is new for us. Up until last year we were on QuickBooks Enterprise but we upgraded to Sage Intact. Transition has been tough, but it's really paying off.

Oh, that's great. You know, we're in the same boat. Not coming from QuickBooks, we're coming from Microsoft Dynamics GP. But we're in a conversion process to Sage Intacct right now, and you and I have had a couple conversations about that and I appreciate your input there. All right, AP Automation, are you using any tool for that or mostly manual processes?

Yeah, another exciting thing that's relatively new for us. We have started using a software platform called Avid Exchange. It's a plugin to Sage intacct and, and it automates the procurement to payment process. You know, some folks call that P2P. It's new for us, but it has automated a lot of our accounting and invoice entry. We're also now rolling it out on the purchasing side. That's very new. We're still kind of testing it with one office, but I'm really excited about it. You know, cfo, you kind of geek out about those kind of things, but we think it's going to make our financial operations a lot more efficient.

That sounds great. Fantastic. What about payroll HRAs or LMS systems? What are you guys using on that front?

We're using ADP for payroll and there's some additional HR modules that I'm not as familiar with simply because we haven't, I don't think we're fully using them, but ADP for payroll at the moment.

Okay, great. What about forecasting and planning? You in Excel or using any other functionality in the intact software?

Forecasting and planning, it's largely in Excel. When we want to share those, those forecasting and budgets, we'll put them in Google Docs. But it's, you know, that, that process is pretty manual at this point where we, you know, we're in Excel. Uh oh, Ken, I think I lost you. Are you on mute?

Oh, there we go. Does that work?

Yeah, now I can hear you.

All right, editors, please edit that out if possible. What are you doing for data visualization and data automation? If anything, just, you know, KPI reporting and things like that.

Yeah, so we, we've, we've tried a lot of different things over the year or over the years most recently. And currently we are using a software platform called Domo. So it's a data and BI reporting system and we've invested heavily in it over the years, but it's been a fantastic product in that we have been able to extract data warehouse, create a data warehouse from open dental and run our own KPIs. And in that respect we can really define what we want to see and how we want to see it. We had, we're working with a consultant who has, who has written those queries and who has helped us set up Domo. But all of our teams, all of our internal stakeholders have access to Domo. They can see all of our KPIs across the organization.

Yeah, a system like that where it does the aggregation and then the display, everybody I've talked to says they ultimately either have to hire external consultant to come in and help or else they end up just really having to invest in their internal team to become that expert on the aggregation. And then obviously the visualization side. And you probably have ended up building out some of both. But I guess I'm just saying this because I appreciate the investment. It's not. There's no real visualization automation tool where you just buy it off the shelf and plug it in and it works. There's significant investment.

Yeah, you know, unfortunately not. And that's, you know, when you, when you go down the path of looking at different BI data and BI visualization software, you know, that's the hope, that's the promise. But that's what we found as well. We've tried a few different platforms and, you know, ultimately I think we have a good one. But ultimately you have to invest and, you know, to make it your own and to make it meaningful and it takes a lot of time and effort, but, you know, that's. Ultimately you hope that it's going to drive the performance that you want.

That's great. Good. Are you using any type of project management software?

We have just started using Asana. In the past we've used Trello, but we're still trying to find the sweet spot there. With all the various projects that require different internal stakeholders and team members. We're still trying to find our way there, but currently we're using Asana, which I'm still getting used to and familiar with as well, frankly.

Yeah, I've heard good things. I've used more Trello than Asana, but I've heard good things about it from those that use it. How about team communication and chat? What are you guys using for that?

The vast majority of our internal communication is done by Slack. We have somewhere around 230, 250 employees or team members and roughly 180 of them have a Slack account and they're connected to our various channels. Externally, we use email and phone, of course, but Slack's been a great tool. We've liked it. We've been able to manage our internal communication much better.

That's great. I'd love to see my organization ultimately move to that. We're using a Few different ones. Including our IT team uses Slack a lot. But then they have to stay active on Google Hangout and other channels where people are at. So at some point we're going to consolidate. I may pick your brain about it at that time. How about credit card expense reimbursement? Any software you're using to automate that?

Yeah, I'm not sure if you've heard of divi.

Of course. Yep, we use divi.

Oh yeah, that's right. Maybe we spoke about that earlier. But yeah, we've been using DIVI for I guess the past year and you know, our doctor owners, our doctor partners, our regional leaders and a few folks in our home office that spend money or you know, are authorized to spend money, they'll have their cards. But you know, we've been using divi. We've been happy with it. It's been a great way to, you know, set budgets. There's a clear cutoff in spending limits. So we've liked it. What are your thoughts? How have you liked divi?

Yeah, it's been great. In fact, we're finally to the point in using IT where I think we can even start to take away immediate supervisors needing to be involved because we've got enough history and data now and creating budgets that I actually, we're excited about taking some of the administrative burden off of managers and regionals and you know, just empowering the accounting team to run it because it's, it enables them to be able to do that. So we've been actually really pleased with it. And honestly my biggest complaint with DIVI is they're not increasing our limit fast enough. We still have capacity over at amex and so we're using Amex, but everybody hates having to use that. It's a more cumbersome process. Divi's a much better end user experience and our employees, you know, they just over and over prefer to. Prefer to do that. So.

Nice. Yep. That's been largely our experience as well.

Yeah. Great. So let me ask this, I'm going to skip over. We're not going to jump into budgeting, forecasting. I want to ask because you've run across this with when you were in Enterprise on QuickBooks and then now you're to sage intact. What are the main challenges? And again, knowing that we've got some small groups and emerging DSOs, you know, and the leaders of those organizations or you know, controllers or financial leaders of those organizations, what are the main challenges that you faced in trying to get nice clean consolidated financial statements for presentation to your team, you know, for management discussion, and then externally. And what are some of the ways that you've been able to overcome those challenges?

Oh, great question. You know, it's the challenges, I think have been different over time as a function of our growth. The challenge that we had when we had, say, 10 locations were very different than they are now. So I'll address, you know, some of the current challenges. The current challenges are shared expenses. As we get larger shared expenses and the allocation of those expenses. As we become larger, we have better and stronger purchasing power and we also have more shared expenses. Regional managers, they work across multiple locations. Specialty supplies, specialty suppliers, shared marketing budgets and shared marketing campaigns, things of that nature. As more and more of our spending goes to kind of shared resources, there are economies of scale. We throw that term out quite a bit, and they exist. However, from the accounting side, it requires better reporting, better communication, and better controls to make sure that we allocate those share costs correctly across the locations. You know, because I. Every month I meet with our teams or I have a conversation or report our financials to our teams and they'll ask me, you know, in fact, just earlier this week or last week, I had one of our doctor partners, he said, hey, what's this travel expense? $237 is on my P and L for travel expense, who traveled? And, you know, so I had to look into it. I didn't know that the answer off the top of my head. Well, I had to look into it and, well, it was a regional manager. It was your regional manager traveled from point A to point B. And you know that that cost was shared among your office and these three others. And, you know, so that's been a challenge. I don't. It's certainly something we can overcome. But those kind of allocations required, like I said, better communication, transparency and controls. In the early days, it was different. In the early days, we were trying to get our chart of accounts consistent across all locations. And doing that in QuickBooks is a lot harder than doing that in a more robust program like Sage. Intact. But like I said, you know, three years ago, we were still getting our chart of accounts consistent across all locations. Which, by the way, if you're a smaller emerging dso, I strongly suggest you do that. You want all of Your P&Ls across all locations to look just the same. The expenses, the amount of expenses, the economics, of course they'll be different. But if you're going to call non doctor compensation, if you're going to report non doctor compensation, you want to report that consistently. You don't want to have a different nomenclature for that.

That's really good advice. So even if they're using QuickBooks, get that chart of accounts consistent all the way across.

Yep, for sure.

Outstanding. Okay, what is one of the biggest oversights or mistakes that you're seeing among smaller emerging DSOs? And you could even, you know, point the finger at yourself first and say, here are some of the things that we missed on, because experience tends to be the most powerful teacher, at least for me. So what are some of the lessons learned as you guys have grown and scaled, and what are some of the other issues or challenges you see smaller groups making today that maybe a little bit of advice could help them avoid or think through a little differently?

Sure. Well, I like that, Ken. I will point the finger at us first. You know, I think a big mistake that we have made that we're trying to correct is setting the right expectations now with our internal stakeholders. Now, that's really broad. So I'll elaborate. In the early days with our. With some of our doctor Partners, our expectations and our agreements and contracts and all that, they were. They were pretty loose. They weren't very explicit as to who does what and how the economics are split and how we make decisions about investing into new equipment, new software, whatever the case may be. And in most cases, we've been able to resolve that and get our outline our expectations. In some cases, it's ended poorly. In some cases, our doctor partners, one doctor partner in particular said, hey, this isn't what I signed up for, you know, and I want out. This is four years ago. And, you know, we dissolved that partnership. And, you know, that was a miss. Right. But it came back to we didn't set the right expectations. Now, part of that was a function of we didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know what we didn't know. And as the business evolved, as the strategy and business model evolved, so did our partnership. And, you know, that ultimately that was different than what this partner initially signed up for. Well, we've also made the same mistake in with our team members. You know, for example, oftentimes when we're recruiting and we're hiring people, we find a candidate that we really like. Say it's for a position for a new office leader. We really like this person, and it's easy to set the wrong expectation of what's required. You know, we like to highlight the positives of, hey, you know, we're going to grow this practice. And it's going to be, you're going to love it, you're going to get along with team members and you're going to add so much value. Well, sometimes we set the wrong expectation by saying, well also keep in mind you're going to be working five days a week and it's going to be hard work and you're going to be, have to, you're going to be a leader and you're going to have to have the hard conversations with your doctor and with your other team members. And you know, when we, and in some cases, you know, we, sometimes we've hired the right person but when we set the wrong expectations and we haven't given them the appropriate training, it just hasn't worked out. And you know, that's, that's been a miss. That's something that we're trying to resolve right now. That's something we're trying to correct right now. In a lot of different ways. Our agreements with our doctors, our partnership conversations, our are much different. They're more professional and they're more, you know, we're trying to reset those expectations or set the right expectations with our team members. We are investing a lot more in training and during the training process we're trying to set the expectations of what this job actually looks like. So, you know, that's, that's one thing, that's an oversight that we're trying to correct. You know, I think it makes us better for it makes us stronger. But I would caution any business owner, DSO or not to, you know, really think through the business model and as it evolves, really think through how are you going to communicate transparently with all of your stakeholders to make sure that you're all aligned towards the same goals.

Yeah, that's fantastic advice. And you know, if I was sitting in an emerging, emerging DSO right now and listening to this advice, I think to myself, awesome, okay, so now how do I circumvent that? And it seems like getting the right dental focused legal counsel can help you get agreements really that are contemplating all the bad things that can happen. And that's generally what we're paying for is that risk management and as well as, you know, getting the expectations clarified and then building out that training is just so, so important and so critical to create consistency, to create compliance in many respects and so many other things. I think that's great advice and I want to pull back now sort of the 30,000 foot level and it's something that you mentioned when we were chatting that you guys have spent a fair Amount of time and effort really identifying your core values and you find that the core values, now expectations get attached to those core values and it creates the platform to discuss and get everybody aligned. And so I'm curious if you could share this, you know, your experience doing that and what value it's brought in, managing expectations, getting people aligned, and really, you know, what core values have to do with actually being profitable at the end of the day?

Absolutely, yeah. Over the years, as we all find our way, our strategy evolves and our messaging evolves along with it. So in the early days, what we were presenting and how we were presenting to our teams was much different than we are now. As an example, our early training focused around metrics, focused around pre appointment hygiene, pre appointment rates, focused around new patients and retention and average daily production. Now, don't get me wrong, all of those metrics are very important. You know, they help drive success if you get them right. But when the focus is on those metrics, it's not necessarily, it usually isn't very inspiring to other folks. So last year, early in the year, we got really serious about defining our core values. And it wasn't necessarily making core values up. It was more about documenting what do we believe. And we came up with 10 core values. And they're all around, well, they're what we believe. Some of the highlights will be our service. We believe in serving others. We believe that we'll be more successful serving others. Another core value is patients pay our paychecks, which drives the point home. Hey, we need to deliver a great customer and patient experience because that's who pays our paychecks. You know, other core values are around teamwork. Teamwork is essential. Humility, education, family and team relationships, etc. And we spent a lot of time formalizing those and crafting them. We gathered lots of feedback from our partners internally and we put them down, we memorialized them, and then we went on a tour across all of our locations and we spent a couple hours at each location, whether they're new or not. And we delivered these core values and everyone was very, very receptive to these core values. Okay, so to the point, why does this matter? Well, we found that we can drive better performance if we're working towards a common goal. As an example, if we want to talk about a patient experience and, and retention, patient retention and case acceptance, well, let's not talk about those metrics, let's talk about what impacts those metrics, and that's the patient experience. Patients pay our paychecks. So let's treat the patient. Great. Let's make sure they feel comfortable. Let's make sure they trust our providers and they understand the value of the treatment that is being proposed. You know, there's of course, so much more to that, but if we focus on patients, pay our paychecks, let's deliver a great patient experience, a lot of those metrics will fall into place. And we found that as we focused on our core values, we got a lot more emotional buy in from all of our team members, from our doctors to our OLs, office leaders to our dental assistants, et cetera. And it was a really unifying voice. It really unified us as an organization. Now, when this global pandemic hit and we had to partially close down our locations, it was also very unifying. We had built up some goodwill internally where we believed in a common purpose. And unfortunately, we had to close down our offices, which meant that many employees were furloughed. Well, I believe that we built up some goodwill because we knew what we stood for and we closed down our offices and furloughed our employees in order to maintain the future success of the business. You know, so it's. For us, core values were important. You know, in retrospect, we look back and we say we should have focused on these core values a lot sooner than we did. Which, by the way, that seems to be a common thing among many, many DSOs. But it's been important. The core values have really aligned our shared vision as well as our goals and therefore the resulting behavior.

Yeah, that's amazing. And the more that you promote them and the more that they're true.

Right?

If they're not true, if you really don't believe those things authentically, and if the leadership team doesn't lead out with those things naturally and authentically, then obviously it falls apart. But the more authentic that is, the more impactful it is. And it's amazing to see how that can just run through the course of, of the veins of the entire organization down to what you call the very furthest away tertiary brand new hire and the very furthest practice away from where your support centers at it's. And I love the perspective you guys have as well as the process you went through to define them because you hadn't given them names, they just existed in the way you guys were operating and functioning. And the fact that your employees responded so well means that they were really true core values. If a lot of people had left or said, no, these guys never actually behave that way, and my doctor never behaves that way. And they don't believe in these core values. And why are we making these things up? They're not even real. Then you end up with a nice poster on the. A nice poster on the wall. But that doesn't really have impact in the organization.

That's a really good point. And you're right. I think they have to be. You have to be sincere with your core values. You have to believe them and you have to talk about them. Otherwise they can just become a poster on the wall. But, you know, and I'll tell you what, Ken, there have been a handful of instances where I've had a team member either tell me or one of, you know, someone else in the office. They'll call us out and say, hey, listen, we talk about these core values, but how does this decision, you know, align with that core value? And, you know, a couple of times say, yeah, that's a really good point. Let's talk about that. And maybe the decision remains the same, but maybe it's not. Maybe we need to rethink this and what do we really believe? And what's that? North Star. So it's, you know, it definitely the core values resonated with our team members. But you're right, we have to be sincere. And if we depart from them in our behavior, in our attitudes, then they become really hollow. And, you know, you want to avoid that. And so it requires effort and time. And. And you have to talk about your core values to make sure that you remind yourself and you remind all of our team members what we believe in.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And there's so many pearls of wisdom in what you've just said and key takeaways, I think, for all of our listeners. So we're to the exciting part here. It's all been exciting, but we're to the exciting lightning round portion of the interview. Patrick, so this is sort of a rapid fire. And let us know what you think about these six questions. What are you currently working on?

I am currently working on lining up the Main Street Lending Program application.

Yeah, that just came live and online, didn't it? And what have you seen so far? Can you give us any insights?

You know, unfortunately not. I reached out to a couple lenders yesterday, so no updates, but I'm optimistic. We'll probably have to catch up, you know, once we hear more. Huh?

Yeah, that's. That would be a great idea. What are you most proud of?

Oh, you know, I'll get personal here. I'm definitely most proud of my family. I'm Married. Been married for 14 years this month, and we have three fantastic children. Nine, six years old. And, you know, I'm proud of what we've built together. And, you know, we have a happy family and we're healthy and, you know, I'm really proud of what we have.

Good for you. Congratulations on that, for sure. Favorite sports team?

The Nebraska Cornhuskers. There you go. The football team.

I love it. Great. Favorite hobby?

Favorite hobby? Oh, man. Good question. I. I'm kind of a nerd. I don't have really fun hobbies. I mean, I like to go to the gym and work out. I'm no fitness buff, but, you know, I like to spend time with family. I like to travel. But those would probably be top of my list.

Awesome. Great. Favorite app on your phone.

It would be one of two. First, my ESPN app. Love staying up to date, even if it's just a past time. Second would be my Domo app. I love to geek out on our various KPIs.

That's awesome. So you're bouncing back and forth between first visit, you know, patient visits and your Cornhusker football team. Right? Back and forth between those two apps.

That's basically it. Yeah. Great.

Favorite spreadsheet function.

Oh, geez. I mean, it tried and true. You got to go with the pivot table. I mean, it's. It takes a lot of data and you can get to what you're looking at, but yeah, pivot tables.

Great. All right, Patrick, we're kind of. We're at the wind up phase here of the interview. What is the parting advice that you have for emerging group practices? Knowing what you know today?

Sure. Oh, man. Well, for what it's worth, I think going back to aligning behavior, aligning shared vision and goals, you know, my advice would be map out, what do you want to accomplish? How are you going to accomplish in as much detail as you can. Obviously that can change, but what do you want to accomplish and who do you want to accomplish it with? And, you know, from there, maintain those relationships with your internal stakeholders, you know, because success, especially in the DSO space, is definitely not achieved alone. It requires a team effort, and it requires everybody having that shared vision, you know, being on the same page. So I would. That's it. You know, figure out what you want to do, who you want to do it with, and constantly work towards achieving. Achieving shared goals.

I love it. So, Patrick, you are on the DSO Secrets Facebook group. So if you do want to reach out and connect with Patrick or network in any way with him, we encourage you to go and you can ask some questions and tag him there. Patrick, any other way if somebody wants to reach out and connect with you, how would you recommend they do that?

Oh, of course. I'm not a big social media guy, so let me share my email address. I'd be more than happy to connect with anyone listening to this podcast. It is my first name, Patrick P A T R I c k@platinumdentalservices.com Perfect.

Well, I appreciate several things we talked about today. I think the biggest takeaway, hopefully for emerging groups is hearing you, you know, when you're at 15 or up to 20 locations and having to go back and kind of reset those core values, how much more effective it could have been if you started that a little earlier or maybe even right from the very beginning. And I think there's. Anyways, listening to you talk, Patrick, that's what I was thinking about is really defining who you are and who you want to be. And I love how you said who you want to be with and building out those relationships and developing that and sticking true to that core. I think there's just, there's so much value that comes from really owning those core values and allowing those to govern and drive how you lead and how you build out your dso. And it really, truly does fall to the bottom line. So again, Patrick, thank you for joining today and many, many thanks to all of you listeners for joining. This is a wrap for focusing on building core values with CFO Patrick Nelson. Happy day.

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