91: Chaos To Amazing Results Part 1 with Host Ken Kaufman and Guest Jodi Evans, COO of National Dental Partners

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You have this natural talent, this unique ability. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of DSO Secrets. I am Ken Kaufman, your guest host today, filling in for the illustrious Emmett Scott. And I have got a guest with me today that I am really excited to introduce and, and a topic that I think everybody's going to be really excited in. Jody Evans, who is our Clinical Operations Officer at National Dental Partners, has joined me on this call and we are going to take on the concept of chaos. Taking chaos and turning it into amazing results. And so Jodi, why don't you take a second, introduce yourself to everybody and then we'll jump into this topic.

All right?

Hey.

So I am Jodi Evans. I'm the Clinical Operations Officer. I am currently helping National Dental Partners and our clinicians to build specialties across multiple DSOs. And our vision there is to collaborate, elevate and serve each one of our customers to help them bring their clinical capabilities and teams to the next level.

Oh, that is incredible. So as we have done a little bit of brainstorming around this topic today and you have stepped into an area of a high degree of chaos and you're trying to now how do you turn that into amazing results? We realized, and I've got to be right up front with the listeners right now, this is going to be at least a two part series or maybe even more by the time we get done. And this is, you know, I love it because Jodi, it's like boots on the ground and you're taking all this on and obviously you have a bunch of experience behind you as well to rely on, but you've got this fresh experience that you're working on. So as we chatted prior to recording this, this concept of chaos to amazing results, some DSO leaders don't actually know how much chaos is actually happening in their organization. Maybe it's their plan at too high of a level or whatever. Could you maybe take a minute and walk us through what is the how do you actually diagnose the chaos that's happening or occurring inside your organization, the level of it.

Okay, great. That's an awesome question. I love that. So I'll first be the one to say, I just want to be transparent here, that I have typically figured out that we're in chaos way too late. So by the time that I've recognized it, I've already burned out some key amazing team players. There has been, like, a more dramatic conflict that happens, and I've had to step back and reflect and ask myself, like, how could I have done better as a leader and how could I have seen it sooner? Because my tolerance for chaos is actually pretty high, and that can be insensitive to other team members who are feeling like they're failing way before I might feel it. So I've had to reflect on this because it's something that I've actually struggled with. So as I share these, it's totally out of empathy if you're going through this. One of the key things that I saw is where is the team energy? If the energy is low, but the urgency to get stuff done is high, you got to pick up on that and see that in your team. And we can talk more about how to see that. But you walk into the space and you might be like, hey, this has a lot of urgency. And you can see it in their face that their enthusiasm is low, their energy is low. That's a sign that they're in chaos. And it's really subtle, but I think it's worth looking at.

And would it be worth it to actually ask, how would you approach the employee and ask, how are you feeling about this? Are you asking them, do you feel enthusiastic about this? Maybe you could coach us on that.

Yeah. So I really steal a lot from Alex Charfen, who's amazing. I love his formula. But the one out of all the things that he's done, the one that I probably use the most is, where are you feeling pressure and noise? And what he means by that is, where are you feeling stress or you're feeling bombarded or you're feeling overwhelmed or even just frustrated. Because sometimes when people are overwhelmed, they don't think they're overwhelmed. They think that everybody else is just being annoying. Right. And so asking that question allows them to open up about where they're feeling, that whether they go into victim mode, they might blame other people or whether they're really self aware and they're great at articulating exactly where they're feeling stressed. It doesn't matter. Because it gets you that right information to follow up with that next question of so how can I offer protection and support? And then allows them to get into the solution mode. So that's a great way, I think, to ask your team members instead of just being like, hey, how do you feel? Like, where are you feeling? Pressure and noise.

That's great. So what other elements of interacting with employees help you to figure out whether they're in chaos, the level of chaos, and bring you to a place where you're actually understanding what the level of chaos is, not maybe ignoring it or being a little bit ignorant to how, what, you know, what's going on inside the employees. In fact, before you answer this, as we were chatting, I coined this little phrase. Sometimes what's going on in our organizations is not a way to look around and see whether or not there's a high level of chaos. It's actually what's going on inside of our employees that is the true indicator. So maybe you could comment on that.

Yeah, I love that. And so I'm going to stick to the employees before I get to my other ones that are more around the business. The other one that you know that there is chaos is when somebody is culturally misaligned and they're going unchecked, when you just don't have time to address that employee who seems to always be in conflict with other team members, who doesn't seem to be getting the momentum, who maybe isn't, doesn't have the right attitude. And we have a lot of things at NDP that help us assess culture. But when you notice they're going unchecked, when you don't have time to have those crucial conversations or help develop those team members, that's a sign you're probably in chaos.

So I know you've got lots of individual experiences here with this. So would you mind maybe like rack your brain here for a second and give us an example of a time when you, you were able to assess that there was this misalignment occurring and a lot of chaos around it.

Sure, it's when I've noticed it, when I told myself, but their skill set is so helpful and I'm excusing behavior that I typically would want to address with somebody.

Oh, like what kind of behavior?

Some of it would be lack. So for us in our pillars, it would be lack of humility, lack of gratitude, going into victim mode, blaming, finger pointing. It's not my job. Tell me what to do and I'll do it. Items like that are always key indicators that there's an area, there's an opportunity to coach. We might even see that they can't engage in what we call straight talk, which is something that Ken has created for our company, and it's been huge. And that is having direct conversations with their team members. So they're coming to me and they're not solving it with the key people that need to be solving it with. And when I don't have time to really address those issues, be transparent with them and help create a plan with them to grow and to be successful. And I start using excuses like, yeah, that might be really noisy to me right now, but, boy, I really love their skill set that they're bringing. I know that, that I'm in chaos because I'm not slowing down to do my number one job, which is to lead team members to success.

Interesting. That's fascinating. Okay, so any other thoughts or tools around how to assess the level of chaos that's going on inside your employees?

Yeah. Another one is if you don't know who's working on what. So if you find that you're micromanaging because you don't know where the priorities are in the queue, or if you're going across departments and you have no clarity on where your item that you need is at and they're being stressed by the request, you know that there's. That people typically, it's because they have other, you know, ASAP stuff coming through their emails. Right. Or into their queue. And if you don't have visibility, that's a sign that there's chaos because we don't have time to slow down and, and really see what the priorities are and why you're at where you're at. And so that level of frustration, sometimes we've said, like, you're sending it over and it feels like it goes in a black hole. Right. That's chaos. That's chaos. And then the last.

We're going to want to hear how to solve that, but yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, we're working on that constantly. Right. As we grow, you're. You're typically breaking those systems and then rebuilding them. And then the other one is frustrated with outcomes. So showing up to meetings and thinking, why in the world isn't this further along? Why didn't this happen? Why isn't this person faster, better, whatever, and you start looking at people instead of systems and you're feeling frustrated with people, that typically means that you're in chaos because there's a reason you hired them in the first place. And it Means we're not slowing down to understand the true milestones that we should be accomplishing. And so I find if I'm showing up to me, I'm constantly frustrated, then there's something wrong with, you know, the chaos part needs to be addressed.

And so is it. Generally speaking, as a leader, if I'm feeling this frustration or this anger or this lack of clarity, you know, all these, all these different emotions at different intervals and times, that usually an indicator that my employees are having similar feelings of chaos. Maybe it's that they don't know their job well enough or they haven't. They feel like they don't have enough information to do the job they've been given or the right tools or whatever it is. Is there usually a synergy or is it possible for me as a DSO leader to feel all this frustration and anger and my team's just happy and go lucky and they're not feeling the same level of stress and chaos that I am.

So in my experience, their chaos and stress has been ten times worse than mine. So by the time I'm feeling it, they've already felt it for a lot longer than I have. When I pull back the curtain, they are typically at a higher degree of feeling inadequate and insecure about their contribution before I even see that. And that can trip into behaviors that look like arrogance or overconfidence or frustration or blaming. But typically that's stemmed from a place of feeling unsuccessful and insecure about their contribution. And unfortunately, by the time I see it, I'm late to the party. And so there's some rework and amends and things like that that are done to say, okay, let's start over and let's create a path together because they need to own it to get us back on track. And also asking how am I contributing to that frustration? And that's always really eye opening.

Yeah, those are powerful. Very self reflective. Maybe sometimes a little too painful questions to try to answer ourselves, right? To realize that we're contributing to the chaos when in our heart of hearts we're trying to eliminate it. But there may be some things we're doing as leaders that are causing even more chaos than there should be. So can you. Before I go into the rest, is there anything else in terms of assessing cause? I want to ask you this question. I want you to give me an example of a time when you showed up way too late in terms of realizing that an employee was in chaos. And it could be an example where maybe you were able to save the relationship and keep the employee or maybe one where you didn't. But I think our listeners, to hear how this actually happens, boots on the ground would be super helpful. But before you jump to that, if you have anything else on your list, I want to make sure we cover everything in terms of assessing chaos.

That's the four that I could come up with that I thought, yeah, that should, you know, I'm sure there's way more, but that's the four. Yeah.

Awesome. Cool. So how about an example of you showing up too late in terms of realizing that everyone's in chaos.

So we had. I'll tell one that is semi funny now was a little eye opening. At the time we had a certain position in the office that we hadn't spent a lot of time figuring out how to onboard train up. And we started seeing that as we were hiring people that they would go take a lunch break and not come back. And that was the eye opener. It's like, okay, what did we do wrong? Right? We onboard and we interviewed them, we fell in love with them. We said that they're amazing. Like all this stuff we're talking about how great they are. They show up and two days later they say, I'm going to lunch and they never return back to the office. That to me was like, we've got to stop saying why do we hire people who go to lunch and never come back and ask ourselves instead, why aren't they coming back? And we started finding it was a very particular position. And that was helpful for us to say, what are we doing to these poor humans, right. Who obviously they need a job and they want to be here and they wanted to come. And then we ruined it. So how did that happen? And as a leader, I had to own that because I was over that department and realized like that was eye opening. Relationships I've been able to save have really just come through intense transparent communication and me really just getting my feelings hurt. I think that's important to sign up for that as a leader, that your feelings are going to get hurt and that you've got to be bigger than that moment. Some of it is like I. There's some tools that I use, I'll talk about to create some transparency so that I can be more transparent about my weaknesses. Almost hurt my feelings before they get hurt. Right. But other times, like it really has been team members coming to me. So I had a team member and I was like, man, we're rocking and rolling. We're in momentum. This was like in 2014, all of our marketing initiatives had to change. And he came to me one day and he said, jodi, I feel like, like you have a tennis ball and like, I'm a dog and you're like, throwing it. And as soon as I sprint to go get it, you pull another one and you throw the other direction. And then I go. And instead of saying, you know, you're making my hair gray, because at the time the colors were purple and yellow, he's like, jody, you're making my hair purple like every day. And he's like, I'm so stressed out. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, I thought this was fun. And we were able to have a really transparent conversation about that. And I started taking my ideas, the tennis balls I was throwing everywhere, and I had to put them on a different platform that I wasn't showing him every five seconds that I had a new idea or wasn't texting him or whatever. So that was a blessing that somebody stuck around to have the crucial conversation. And I'll tell you, Ken, one of the things that I've learned is if your team is willing to tell you that that's a gift and that's a blessing, to get your feelings hurt is a blessing because they cared enough to show up for the conversation. And when you don't care about somebody, and I think this is in work and impersonal, you quit showing up for the conversations that need to happen because those take effort and those take. That establishes more of a long term game with somebody. And so I've learned that it's a huge blessing to have someone tell you versus have somebody go to lunch and not come back.

Yeah, that's right. I had somebody tell me once, it was a while ago, and I've used this saying quite a bit since, and it's a very simple saying, but I think it kind of. It'll resonate here with what you've said. And it's. Feedback is a gift.

Yeah, that's a great way to summarize that.

And we can all say, of course it is when they're lavishing me with praise and accolades. But we also have to feel like it's just as much of a gift when they're giving us feedback that we don't want to hear or that hurts. Or like you said, that could potentially be very offensive because if they're willing to do that, it means they, as individuals, could be a gift to have around you, to help you and to build a powerful team around. So I want to do this because we've got just some time left here in this episode. I know for sure we're going to have to do a part two. And you started to do this. I think what you were talking about there was a great segue. So there are several steps that you've identified. Once you've identified that your employees are in chaos, which means your organizational health is in chaos, what's the first step that you've identified that you've got to do? And I know that you're very passionate about the order of these steps. So tell us, what's the first step that you do to start addressing this organizational chaos?

The first thing I do is I want to understand who's on the org chart and more particularly who's on my org chart. And what I mean by that is not the name with the title but the person that's there. And we talk a lot about like self awareness. And I just believe that self awareness is a really hard thing to come by. It's, you know, how many years of therapy do you have to have? How much feedback do you have to have? Like what in your life creates self awareness? So I'm really passionate about this. You'll hear me talk about it, you know, lots of places. But a little while ago we developed what's called a baseball card. And it instead of somebody being self aware, they take the tests that increase their awareness and it's tests that they fill out, right? So it's their own feedback being systematized and organized and then fed back to them. And, and so I love looking at who's on the org chart. What are your strengths? How do you show up as your best self? How do you like to solve problems? Because we are going to solve problems together as a team or they're going to solve problems with their team members. How do they show up? We really want to understand that and review that because when they get to show up as their best selves, they're going to contribute at the highest level.

And then I want to interject here, just, I want the listeners to understand a couple things because you've, you've done this so long and so much. You just said a whole lot that I think we can unpack for a second. The first one is you call it a baseball card because you put their picture on it. And like a baseball card that I used to go down to the corner drugstore and buy with my 50 cent allowance. Every week I'm dating myself there, there'd be a cool picture of the baseball player. On one side and then all their stats and information on the other. And so it's here's who it is, the picture, and then you've got all this amazing information. Can you walk us through what are the tests that you're exposing your team to and how are you thinking about those in terms of what it tells you about them and how they interact with the team?

I'll tell you, I'll start too with the questions at the top of the baseball card because I've gotten such a good reaction and then we can go to the test. But I'll tell you one of the key questions that's the most important is how do you like to receive positive feedback? I've been surprised how many people have told me no one's ever asked me that before. And they feel like it's a highly personal, deep question to ask because they feel like at that moment it's like you're not going to create a program that says here's how you should, you know, celebrate success. It's how do you like to receive that feedback? And it's customized to them. So we have a couple other questions at the top, but that one has gotten the best result.

And what are the potential answers there? What is it? I like it to be, you know, I want a banner flown through the sky. Walk me through what the answers are that people give you.

So one answer that I see quite a bit is when you tell me that my team is doing an awesome job and you make that known like that. When I receive feedback like that, that makes me feel like I'm being successful. It's not tactical, it's like, I guess, yeah, how do you like to receive positive feedback is like, what, what makes you feel good? What makes you feel positive? What makes you feel successful? And it's when you talk about my team and how great they are, that's how I like to receive positive feedback. Like that to me, says I'm doing a good job. I've had other people say, when you let me know that the results that we're achieving are proved through data. I'm like, okay, so this is how I like to do positive feedback. Hey, high five. You're awesome. Right? Like, let's woohoo, do a little dance dab, whatever. And nobody answers like that. Everybody. It's more about what are we going to talk about, what are we going to, how are you going to express success Back to me? Tends to be the answer that they're, they're, that they're really giving and that's awesome to see that.

Yeah. It's not like a surface level feedback. It's more of getting some depth in terms of the impact of the positive impact that they're creating and whether that's manifested data or some other way. That's really cool. Okay, sorry, I interrupted you there. Go ahead and walk us through that baseball card.

So we have the Colby, and the Colby tells you how you like to solve problems and. And what your instincts are in solving problems. And we break it down not only by your numbers, they have, you know, four different numbers that they're pulling, but we also break down. There's a page in the Colby, it's like nine pages long, it's super long, that says, when you go to solve a problem, what do you do first, what do you do second, what do you do third, what do you do fourth? And it's tactical. And that has opened up, like, people's eyes to be like, yes, if I was free to be myself, I'd show up to every meeting, I'd solve a problem that way. And when we get into, like, team discussions. Right. Somebody else is going to solve it totally different, and it's going to seem like you're miscommunicating, but you're actually just solving the problem different ways and probably different parts of the problem. So that's been really validating for team members to see that and to say, I can show up and be myself and solve problems these ways.

Yeah. And then realize that they're not just. That if they just did their way, the problem's not going to get solved as effectively without people that have energy to solve it in other ways. Right. Whether it's a quick start, an implementer, a high researcher, or high follow through. Those are the four categories. And, you know, we talk about this a lot in organization, but it's really empowering and it gives empathy as well as appreciation for the fact that I'm a high researcher. And I realized that my way is not going to create the best outcome here. It's gonna be a combination of everybody's ways merged together as a team. Does that resonate with you?

Yes. And when people first get their baseball card, they're really obsessed with the feedback they're getting about themselves, and they stay in that place for a while. It's like, what do you mean? I can't. Okay. Especially, like, straight A students, they really struggle with this idea that, like, their highest and their best use is actually this way. They can do all things, but it's like, this is where you show up your best. Like, that's the moment. It takes a little bit for them to now be excited about somebody else's baseball card. So once they're comfortable with their awareness, then they go, okay, now who are you and what are you? You know, but at first they're like, wait, who am I? And then as we go through it and we give more and more tests, they kind of go through that reflection, and then they can reach over and really have that excitement about learning about others.

Awesome. Okay. We could stay on Colby, I'm sure, forever and talk this through, but I think the listeners would love to hear some of the other tests that you've used and. And what you learn from those specifically and implement with your teams.

The next one, I choose the Meyer Briggs. And honestly, it's just a balance. The Colby. The Meyer Briggs is lighter. It's easier to swallow. It claims that it. I think it claims that it does about 80%. It's 80% correct. So it has room to be like, I don't like that part. I don't like that part. The Colby, on the other hand, is like, this is going to be with you your whole life. So it's nice to balance it with the Meyer Briggs. If you're really going to go into deep discussions. And then we go to the Enneagram, and that's a heavy hitter. The Enneagram is very intense around your weaknesses and how you show up and your mental personality health, I guess you'd say. It's like, here's when you're, you know, in your healthy place and not healthy and mid, and it. It's not shy to let you know, you know, what the impact is of your personality on the world. And so we go with that one. Have the last one that we've implemented after the Enneagram, because that's pretty heavy, is the learning one. Learning styles. And the reason why we've done that is because typically all of our meetings look a lot the same. And it's all sit down and it's all verbal and it's back and forth. And the learning styles helps us understand how team members need to be supported after those meetings are done. So I'll refer a lot to my learning style, and I'll be like, hey, I don't learn by you telling me. I'm like, tactical. I have to be doing it. So you're gonna have to come and show me. Then I'm going to have to demonstrate back to you if you actually want me to do that test or Learn that thing or whatever it is. And so having that has been very helpful. And again, it's balancing between those heavy hitters, the Colby and the Enneagram, with some lighter tests, the Meyer Briggs and the learning styles. And then the next one that I'm really excited about is strength finders. I love that one too. But my team, we haven't gotten there yet. That stat's not on our baseball card yet.

I mean, this is amazing. This is fascinating. What you've done is you've cracked a code to get down to understand your employees with sort of this stew, I'll call it, of like you're throwing in some carrots and some potatoes. Or I'm going to throw in a Colby and an Enneagram and a Myers Briggs and a learning style and a strength finders. And I can mix all this up and come back out and I can help everybody understand themselves and then also gain a deep appreciation, understanding and empathy for everyone else around them. And all of a sudden, support goes up tremendously amongst the team. Whereas in chaos, it was probably more some infighting, some challenges and people angry at each other or taking offense and those kind of things. It's pretty powerful.

I love it. Because chaos creates insecurity, which creates like this territorial mindset and individualism. Right? Because there's survival almost feeling in chaos. Like, if I'm not bringing value and I don't know how to bring value, I've got to like hoard this information. I got to shine. I've got to stand out from the chaos. And this gives everyone permission to contribute at their highest and best way, and lowers politics and increases contribution and alignment.

That's powerful. So I want to reset one thing and then I've got to give a little teaser because we're going to have to wrap up and go to part two. So we'll let you sort of lay out what we're going to cover in part two. But now walk us through. Why is it that this has to be the first step to resolving the chaos in your organization and getting yourself out of chaos and toward the amazing results that we all hope for. Why does this have to be first? And why isn't, you know, building a vision or those kinds of things first?

Maybe it depends on the size of your company. But for me, and so I don't want to be like totally just, you know, disregard other approaches. But and for me, I can't define the vision without the team buy in and their clarity. And so if I go here and I in my office And I'm writing out this vision about how we're going to operate as you know, this clinical operations team. And I've got all this clarity and I go show up to a group of people that weren't able to contribute and they don't see themselves in that vision and they don't see why they're important. They're going to disengage if I show up and I go, who are you? Okay, what's your contribution? Really cool. We're building this vision together and these are your strengths and I want your insights and I want your feedback and I want to get like, how would you say this? Because at the end of the day when I have that, when I take that approach, I come with a vision that approaches all personality types and all types of different learning styles. Right. And how I display it and I get way more buy in from the team and plus they help to build it. And I think that's the part that people get excited about is they get to build it at whatever level. They get to build that the organization. Oh, Ken, I can't hear you.

So in wrapping up this episode, here's what my question is. Just give a teaser for the audience about what the next steps are that you're going to talk about in the next episode in terms of moving from chaos to amazing results.

Alright, so the next one would be how do you build a team that interacts well with each other? Okay, they got to be good with themselves. But now how do you bring those individuals together effectively? I think that's crucial. And then. Yeah, and then we'll get into the business side of it. I think there's a lot on the business platform. That's when you really can get down to business and build that vision and the other steps that you need systems to, to get everyone aligned.

Well, Jodi, I cannot thank you enough for being on the episode. I think our listeners are going to get a ton out of this as well as the follow on episode or maybe episodes in terms of thinking this through. Because I think as leaders, all of us have felt this. We've all to some degree known it was there, but never had a real clear process for how to address it and how to take it on. So again, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much, Ken. That was amazing. I appreciate it.

All right, awesome. So we're going to go ahead and sign off. I want to remind everybody, if you have any questions around this, Jody's on the, in the Facebook group, the DSO Secrets group. You can come there ask some questions. Always ready and happy to interact with everybody at that level. And in closing, as Emmett always says, keep smiling.

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