92: Chaos To Amazing Results Part 2 with Host Ken Kaufman and Guest Jodi Evans, COO of National Dental Partners

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of DSO Secrets. My name is Ken Kaufman. I am your host today, filling in for the illustrious Emmett Scott. And with me today for part two of what's turning into maybe a three or four part series in Chaos to amazing results with our amazing guest, Jodi Evans. Thanks for being on the show again today, Jodi.

Oh, thank you, Ken. Love being here. Appreciate the opportunity.

Well, and I think all of our listeners appreciate you being here because just the content you brought there in part one of this, how do you assess organizational chaos and how do you get yourself turning that tide so that you can start to create amazing results with your team? Everybody's felt this at some level, and so this content is fantastic. So let's go ahead and do a quick reset. Part one, you took a few minutes and you taught us about how to assess organizational chaos. Anything stand out from you or anything you want to remind the listeners about kind of how they should go about thinking about assessing the chaos in their companies?

Yeah, I mean, just really focusing on your team energy. If it's really low and your urgency is high, what are we missing? Then you're frustrated with outcomes. And I think the key point too is that by the time you recognize that there's chaos, it's probably been happening for a while. And so recognize that when you see it, to go ahead and take action versus waiting for it to become more apparent. So hence those hints that we talked about are really important to pay attention to. Yeah.

And it's usually bigger. Right. When we feel a little bit of it. Often our employees are feeling a great dose of it or a much bigger dose than.

And we're experiencing.

Yeah, absolutely.

Awesome.

So then we went to sort of step one to move out of chaos into getting your team aligned and positioned for organizational health. And something that stood out to me there was, I think most of us as leaders would think I need to just reset the vision with My team. But you taught us something really powerful. Remind us what it was. What should we do before we go into vision to get our teams on track with moving toward amazing results?

Well, I think it goes back to we're, you know, we talk about dentistry. We're not necessarily in dentistry. We're in the relationship business. And so going back to relationships and going back to the people that are in charge of making sure that everything is carried out, that the systems are carried out, that the healthcare is provided. So that's why I chose to go back to who is in your org chart. And not just from a structural perspective, but like, who are they as a person? How do they think about the world? How do they think about solving problems? Because if you're running fast and you need the right support, they need to be at their highest and best contribution. And so driving back to that first for me has been really powerful. If I jump over division and I forget about truly understanding who's with me, then that vision may not resonate with my team members in the way that it needs to. But if I understand who I'm talking to and the way they need to hear that vision and the parts of the vision that are most important to them, then I can make sure I cover that as I move on to that step, which I think is step three.

So, yeah, yeah, that's really powerful. And for those that missed part one, I would really recommend you go back and listen to it because Jodi introduced a concept that she's called the baseball card. And a battery of tests, you know, personality profiling, Colby Disc, things like that, enneagram, other questionnaires, learning styles. She's come up with this battery of information that gets put into this baseball card and really gives people a comprehensive opportunity to really evaluate themselves and think about themselves and then look around at their team members and start to understand that. So if you missed part one, you should definitely go back. There's some really powerful tools there that Jody introduced. So part one is getting awareness as a leader of who's on the org chart. Their strengths, their skills, how they attack problems, which is what the cold brings to the forefront, and so many other things. So let's go ahead and jump into step two. So once you know who's on the org chart, what is the next step to driving the chaos out of the organization and getting everybody aligned for amazing results?

Step two is one of my favorite because maybe it's all my favorite. I don't know. But I love step two because it's who are they interacting with. And that's really the power of bringing self awareness. Not only to say, here's what my strengths are, my weaknesses, but now I see the person next to me completely different as well. And so when we go to step two, we're really methodical about how we do this step. And that's when we bring our teams together and we start discussing their baseball card stats combined and how it operates as a team. And so, like, for instance, with the Colby, we'll look at. Okay, when we're looking at systems, this group of team members are going to solve it this way, and they stand in one corner of the room, and then this group of team members are going to look at it this way and they stand in another, and there's three groups, right? And they kind of look around and they start laughing and talking about that, because they'll talk about a time that they went to solve a problem and how each one of them approached that differently. And so it's fun to not only recognize that, like, yes, this is how I solve a problem, but, oh, that's how the person across the room is solving a problem. Because a lot of times we get confused and think that people are intentionally trying to drive us crazy or they're not listening because we're communicating the way we want to solve something. And we feel like, well, maybe they're not truly being empathetic or understanding us, when in reality, they're actually solving the problem a different way, but different. It's not necessarily contradicting.

Yeah. And it's not that one way is better or worse than the other either. Sometimes you could say, oh, well, they're too much of a quick starter, they're too much of a researcher. But in reality, it's the blend of all them together that get the team to the right outcome and the right result.

That's right. And so when you start to see that, you see yourself first in your vulnerabilities and your capabilities, then you start to see others, Your relationships with other people begins to change dramatically. Your communication goes a lot more smoothly, and you give everybody permission to truly show up and be themselves. So I can do that as a leader and I can say, hey, you know, when you, when you and I talk to each other, I understand who you are, and that goes kind of far. But as a leader, we're typically not interacting with our teams all the time. They're usually interacting with each other a lot and collaborating a ton. And so when you empower them to understand each other better now, all of A sudden, the momentum goes much faster and everybody's really happy. I don't need them to just get along with me. I need them to get along with each other as well and to have that mutual respect. And then I also want them to solve the problems differently. And so we try to create teams that actually are going to approach each problem from a different perspective, and that really helps solve the whole problem. Now they need platform in order to do that. They need a place to put their thoughts. So if I'm a visionary, I need to be able to have some keywords that I use if I'm talking to somebody who actually starts more at the detailed level. So some hacks that we use is, I'll say, hey, I'm going, can I go up to the spaceship and kind of understand the problem? You know, high level? And then they're like, yes. And then I need to talk about the ants. So that's kind of our internal language to say for me to really follow this conversation. Somebody more detailed may say, I need to talk about the ants and the details first. Then I can kind of understand why we're doing this. And then I might say, well, I can't follow the details and support you until we talk about the spaceship or the high level. Like, why do we have ants? Like, you know, is there an Earth there? Or what's happening? And I need the whole picture. So we always talk about going to the spaceship versus talking about the ants and giving each other permission to do that is a great way to communicate what you need in order to get momentum.

That's amazing. It's amazing that the assessment at first they get aware about themselves in step one and step two. As they learn about themselves now, they start to see their coworkers and have empathy and understanding for how they're approaching things. And I know what you were just talking about. Another word that we've used throughout the organization pretty regularly is we say, can we brainstorm on this? Or, I'm just going to brainstorm for a minute. Because a lot of times employees will hear us say something and think, it is the law, it is written, it is codified, and it needs to be followed exactly like that. And then they get frustrated when we Change our mind 30 seconds later or a day later or a week later, when in reality we were at the spaceship level like you talked about, or, hey, I'm going to be brainstorming here for a minute. I'm not going to focus on the details of how this actually gets done or how many things this Idea is going to blow up and force us to have to change or, you know, redirect in some way. And so that's another word, I think that creates a safe place for people who are real. Like, they want to get things done and they just want to hear the instructions and go. Using that word. Brainstorm creates a safe place and they can feel safe being in it and hearing about it and knowing they don't have to figure out how to go break everything and put something back together that you're just going to change your mind on later. Is that a fair way to say that?

Yeah, I love that. That's right. And we've actually had to define that where it's language that people can use. Right. Okay, can I be clear? Is this a brainstorm, especially when somebody who is more detailed or has that higher implementation around systems and details starts to feel that anxiety during a conversation. That's kind of their key word to your point, to say, hey, is this a brainstorm? That's their way of giving themselves actually permission to breathe and to not start solving it at a detailed level.

That's right.

So I think as leaders, I hope people will take some of these words and leverage them and give their employees permission to use them. Another one that we've used inside the organization, I've seen this reduce chaos a great deal is when an employee is feeling overwhelmed with too much to do, we encourage them to push back on us as leaders and say, can you help me prioritize this list? Because they're so overwhelmed, they have so much to do and we may be thinking, hey, that thing that they're really stressed about, we don't care if that gets done. Maybe in a month or two where there's something else we care much more about. And sometimes we need help and we need them to pull us into a discussion about prioritization versus hey, I don't want you to feel overwhelmed. The only thing I care about that happens this week is this and those other 10 things. We'll get to those when we get to them. This is my biggest priority. So I'm sure you've used that language with your employees and had those types of discussions before and actually had them sit you down and say, jodi, I really need some help. Help me prioritize. Do you have an example that sticks out in mind there?

Yeah, I love that. I do have lots of situations where I've had to encourage people and I've actually to bring that self awareness to them very quickly to let them know that if you come and sit in my office. I can come up with a million ideas. That's part of my Colby. I can come up and brainstorm on a bunch of things. And I've had people. Yeah. That they've had to sit in my office and say, okay, I just want to be clear. Am I failing? Because that's what it feels like to the detailed team members. And in actuality, it's not just that, you know, they're good at details, and I could do it, but it's not my favorite thing to do. Actually, for me, it's a huge blind spot. I don't know that I'm overwhelming people, and so I have to warn them. Like, if you don't communicate it, I may not pick up on it until you're crying or until I'm like, okay, what's going on? And I might get really far in the conversation before I stop, before my awareness kicks in to say, hey, what's happening here? So, yes, you have to empower your team to communicate their needs, own their anxiety, and be transparent about that. If somebody is faking it, then the issue with that is that they think that I'm creating these expectations sometimes and that I can see the details, and I'm still expecting them to execute, but in actuality, for me, it's a real blind spot. And so I need them to communicate back to me, and I actually need them to be good at the details or at the project will fail. The initiative will typically fail without that support. So I want them to show up as their best selves. I want that overwhelm to be an indicator that we need to slow down and get clarity. And I'm okay with that. I just need to know what's happening. So really, again, it goes back to, like, that team celebrating together. We have actually turned it into, like, certain rituals where we get together as a team and we do a bunch of strategic planning, and then every year, we. We figure out a way to celebrate every team member and their unique strengths. Or we figure out a way to take the baseball card stats, let's say, like, the Meyer Briggs, and we talk about how we became that person, what contributed to those personality traits. We usually typically share pretty vulnerable stuff. And we go around the table. Last year, our theme was the one thing, and it was, what's the one thing that you're really good at that you bring to the team? And we had a piece of paper. There was 13 of us there, and everybody. We passed it around. Everybody's name was on there, and every person on the team wrote one thing that that person does that really supports them as a team member. And then that person stood in front of the room and they share what they think their one thing is contributing. And then everybody went around the room and talked about that one thing that they did that they thought they brought value in and how it's helped them in their professional life. And it, like, people were crying, and it was just a big deal because they felt really seen and really heard by their team members. And so we not only just say, yeah, this is so great. We're all getting along, but we really want to try to pause and create a cadence where we're celebrating the individuals as a team, if that makes sense. And we've taken the baseball card and turned it into word art, you know, in connection with our nine pillars. Like, what's the nine pillar that you really like? We feel like you demonstrate really well. And then all their keywords are in that pillar art. We've done just lots of really, really fun activities too, and it creates a bond as a team. And it's not just touchy Philly. I think it gets real results.

That's amazing. In fact, I was thinking about two things as you were talking and sharing that. The first one is, and I'm glad you shared that experience about the one thing and all the employees going around, because, you know, exposing a team to this requires a high degree of vulnerability, and team members might even, you know, vocally push back on. I don't want to do this. Or they may. They may resist in some way, or why are we doing. And this is crazy, or this is just the fluffy stuff like, you know, you just mentioned. It's not just. It's not just interesting. It actually impacts the organization and helps the team get aligned for amazing results. So can you maybe, like, go one step further and explain, you know, either a specific example or some initiatives and things that you feel like were highly impacted because you invested some time and a little bit of money into having these discussions and building out the baseball card for everybody and then everybody, you know, having these conversations. Could you maybe, you know, pull out a time when you feel like, hey, I can show tangible results? We added value to the company in this way because we went and did some of this touchy feely stuff.

Sure. So I have a really specific example that was exciting. There was an initiative where operations and clinical really needed to start operating as one team in our organization. Initially, operations ran, and I was running operations. I was responsible for this mindset, but absolutely in a silo. And I was not being sensitive to the clinical team and treating them as a customer. And I was getting lots of coaching on that and I needed to learn, you know, and it was mechanical at first. Like, I was like trying to learn the language. Like I could have carried around a book to be like, okay, here's how you, you talk to a clinician. And anyways, so again, I think that I love this stuff because I don't claim my emotional intelligence is very high. So it needs to be systematized to some degree. But I invited the clinical team to this retreat where we studied the baseball cards and brought them in as part of our team and put them in our team exercise and then had everybody share that one thing that they do. And, you know, I mean, it's very vulnerable. We were wearing the one thing t shirts from Dr. Seuss. We had on blue wigs. Something that you typically like, don't want to do in front of other people, right? And then we're sharing like this really vulnerable thing. And we walked away from that. And our regionals were able to now start collaborating way more with our clinical team because there was a level of trust. We just had an experience together that was super vulnerable, where we're sharing where we're really strong and where we're really weak. But also, more importantly, we're able to communicate where the clinical team brings value and that we did see them and that we do appreciate them. And so that built trust and we walked away with initiatives that we originally planned taking two years, three years were done in about eight months. And that's because the trust was built and there was a lot more to that retreat. But that was a big part of that team bonding side, you know, to have the team say, you know, as a clinician more than just your, you know, the value that you bring with that skill set. But we see you as a person and we see you as part of our team and we know that we need you. And here's why. That's clearly identified and articulated by every member of, you know, the operations team. That really brought a lot of value and momentum. And then they did the same, you know, so, yeah, initiatives that could take two years took eight months. And that was a huge win.

Eight months. And I think in a lot of ways we can even go back and point to some specific, like, bottom line result outcomes that helped improve the performance of the DSO overall. But the DSO is only successful if the clinicians are successful in each of the practices that are being supported and the Clinicians being supported by the DSO are successful. But I think that dotted line that you connected with a nice solid line through what you did, I think organizationally we saw tremendous impact financially. At the end of the day, it wasn't just, hey, this feels good to be aligned. It's no, we're actually getting more done, we're getting it done faster and we're taking advantage of the opportunities in front of us that the market's giving us.

Yes. It reminds me of that book, Speed of Trust. Right. So if trust is built, you run so much faster. And so that was a huge part of that initiative, is that we were able to build trust. It was a couple of days, there was some activities with it. I'd also say the other part too is that as a leader, you have to go first. So I always share pretty vulnerable things with my team. I typically like. It's an emotional thing and it's not heavy, it's just vulnerability. Right. Like I will share something that an experience where I recognize my need for a team and what that look like and so I'll clearly articulate it. I also show my baseball card and my results first. And you know, a couple weeks ago we had something we're training our directors and our project managers and I put on there, what am I insecure about? Where am I fearful of failing on a strategic level and a tactical level? And the team was sitting there and some of them, like brand new team members, you know, barely knew me. And they were like, whoa. I said, okay, great, now your turn. You know, and they got to try theirs on paper, it wasn't on PowerPoint up in front of everybody. And then they got to share what they wanted to share. Right. So I tried to, you know, not make it a total like throwing them in the boiling water. But going first is a big part of that. It's like, here's who I am and here's what I'm insecure about and here's why I. And this is where I need your help. These are true weaknesses that I have. Now all of a sudden they can start doing that too. And I also, they, you know, had a statement on here's where I think I bring value. And they were able to own that too. So, yeah, it's exciting. It drives collaboration at a level that I haven't seen otherwise. And then we jumped into vision stuff. So again, it's. I follow that formula and I almost don't know how to do it otherwise, because when we start meetings, it's like, this is a Brand new team. Like OS is a brand new team or ortho's a brand new team. And we came together initially it was supposed to be about vision. And I was like, I can't. We gotta get into baseball cards. And then we gotta get into team. And I actually had them plan like a whole vacation together and talked about their strengths and weaknesses and stuff and how that worked as a team. And then it's like, and then we can talk about vision. And that vision conversation was so much better and so much farther.

Interesting.

Yeah. And you just dovetailed right into step number three. Remember, number one was know who's on

your org chart and gain that personal

awareness for each employee. Number two is now who are they interacting with? And so everybody starts to share and open up and be vulnerable with each other. Your third step in your process of

eliminating chaos and replacing it with these

amazing results is building out that vision for the team. And I think also you mentioned when we talked about this and also for each individual, so they really kind of know their role in part. Do you want to maybe give an overview on this one and we can unpack it a little bit?

Sure. So when I think about rolling out like vision for the team for us, we really look at, you know, what that vision statement is, and we have, we have the word revolutionizing in our mission statement. And so our vision has to be revolutionizing something. Right. And again, so like, when you think about doing something audacious, you better know who's on the. Who's on the bus with you and where they're going to contribute the highest, because you're about to revolutionize something. And so when we're talking about vision, we go into that statement and we throw out what's meaningful for us, what's the end result we want to achieve. And then for us, we want to tie that vision to clinical constitution. So we want to tie it to principles and to outcomes that are very specific for our clinician. Again, being sensitive to our customer. And then we're breaking down our customer avatar. So now we're going from my self awareness, my team self awareness, to customer awareness. Who are they? What do they need? In fact, we're even taking it as far as we're trying to. This is an iteration, but we want to get baseball cards on our customers and we want to know who they are so that we can show up better.

We've talked about patient avatar, and I

know inside of community dental partners, we very specifically defined kind of a. It's a generalized version, but we put a name on it, we put an age, we put, you know, demographic. We put some of these different things in to do that. But that's. It's a fascinating concept to think about. Now, I want that customer on my team, and I need to understand who they are so then I can figure out how they fit in and align and how we serve them. It's a fascinating concept.

I heard somebody say once, so I'm stealing this from some other podcasts. I don't remember which one it was. I love it. They said. They said, you can pre forgive somebody when you understand who they are in advance. So it allows you to pre forgive. Like, okay, we're gonna move forward. This is gonna be a place where they're gonna struggle, and that's okay. We already know that. So we're not gonna be offended. We're just gonna pre forgive. And we may even pre forgive and then say, how can we do it differently so that we show up in a way that doesn't create that stress for them? But sometimes you are gonna create stress for your team members. You are gonna create stress for other people. And so how do you let them know in advance, hey, this is coming? So as we were building our vision, how important is it that we understand our customer and that we understand what they need so that we can hone our message better in a way that they truly feel the intention, which is to serve them. And then we go back to our optimal team and say, what departments do we need? So when we think about. When I think about building vision with the team, those are the components we go to, because we go, okay, what are the departments? And then you look again at everybody's strengths, how they interact with the team, and go, who wants to go and build that? Who wants to go lead that? And who has the best capability to make that happen? So if I started with vision, and I go into that and I'm going, who's my customer? I really want to understand them, but I don't understand the people in the room. Like, that's pretty invalidating to say you're taking a bunch of time to understand them, but I'm working with you every day, and you don't know who I am. Right. So that's some of the logic behind the vision.

Interesting.

Putting it third.

So, you know, I've never heard you articulate it that way, but it's fascinating to me that it's like, okay, the individuals have to figure out themselves.

Then they have to figure out everybody on their team.

You know, you're going through your steps to remove the chaos. And then they have to expand the size of their team to include their customer, and that becomes their vision. And it spills over to what the team's trying to accomplish, and then it actually waterfalls down to what me as an individual needs to, like, what. What's my vision? What. What's my role in whatever, you know, this initiative is, whatever the project is, or whatever, you know, we're moving forward with. Is that a fair way for me to describe it or to summarize it?

Yeah, it's even. It's better than the way I articulated. I love that. Yeah. So we were sitting there with one of my teams, and we were looking at our optimal team, and we said, you know, in the future, if we're going to revolutionize, here's the different departments we need. And then we looked at each other, and we looked at our, you know, the baseball cards. We had spent a lot of time, so we kind of knew them with each other, and we were like, who's going to lead it? And then we said, okay, Clarinda, you are going to rock it at this. What do you think about that? And it was almost like a job change in the future right in front of her. And she's like, absolutely. I love that because that works with my strengths, and I want to go run that. So kill the ego. Nobody was like, well, you know, sometimes people chase titles. That kills that because they go, okay, wow, look at all this opportunity that's creating this vision. I can contribute at a high level here. And everybody agrees, you know, and so they.

It's.

It's just awesome to see that happening as a team. That's when the vision, for me, really takes hold. Because a mission statement, getting excited about pillars and things like that only go as far as the people that are going to implement it.

Yeah, this is all very, very powerful.

Can you maybe. Actually, you gave a great example there of Clarinda and how she individually saw how she fit in. How do you see? Maybe you could give an example about a time when you had a team that wasn't really understanding the customer. And, you know, so you went through step one, step two, you get to step three, and it's like, wow, this is a heavy lift to understand this and to get them over the hurdle, to accept that customer onto their team and to figure out how to serve them and how to organize and what everybody's role is in that. Do you have an example of when a team had a hard time maybe initially embracing the Customer and figuring that out.

Absolutely. So I'll use myself as the example, because I think when a team struggles with something, you can usually look to the leader and go, oh, there it is. Right.

There's some bias or something that's existed in the past that you've got to undo first. Right?

Absolutely. So I would go back to my relationship with clinical. In the beginning, it's kind of laughable and a little bit embarrassing, which is good, because if you're not embarrassed, you're not growing, and, holy cow, like, it's embarrassing. But I used to be sometimes frustrated with their request, and. And I know it's really backwards because we're a dso, but that, again, shows an area of growth and opportunity for me, is they would come and say, we need this. And I would think, like, do you, though? Like, do you really need that? Because here's what I think you need as an operator. Right. So I'd put on an operator mindset and have that. And there was conflict. And guess what? Conflict does the wrong conflict. And that wrong misalignment throws me back in that chaos cycle. Right? So now the team is overwhelmed, the energy is low, and I'm looking at all my team, and I'm like, okay, I got the right people on the bus. Like, how do we fix this? And that opened up my eyes to say, oh, yeah, I need to understand my customer. I need to understand who they are and their baseball card and what they need. And that was that turning point. When we invited them to the retreat and we started getting clarity, it was like, oh, my gosh. I could see my own, you know, lack of empathy and my own lack of clarity of where it's really missing the boat in the relationship. And that that really helped change my mindset and get the team growing in the right direction. And I was lucky to have that opportunity. In a lot of places, they'd be like, well, if you don't get it, you don't get it. Right? And so I saw that as a, you know, grace in a moment. And it was also like, and I don't want to do that again. And so being really intentional about building the customer profile from that point on. And again, initiatives move so much faster, but also it's just more fun. You know, it's one thing to get things done. It's another thing to get things done. And to be having a party while you're doing it, things can be stressful, but really enjoyable, or they can just be stressful. And every step feels really tough. And like, you're pushing through brick walls. And so to not have to spend energy pushing through brick walls is life changing.

The vulnerability you had just sharing that example was phenomenal. But the application of this is, like, so real. You can just see that you kind of breathe and think and sleep and drink this, and it's. And it's become such a part of you. And it's obviously been a huge benefit to the organization that you're in. It's actually really powerful to see how these really simple concepts you've taken and ultimately, like, it gets all the chaos out. It gets. It gets out the discord amongst employees. It opens up the communication so that people will work together more effectively. And the part that I'm taking away is that you can't create the vision, or I should say, the vision is around your customer, that you're going to go search the problem you're going to solve and who you're solving it for. And you can't just be excited about the problem. You have to be more excited about

how is that going to benefit and

help the customer who has that problem. And it's going to make their life better. And when you get that alignment around that, it's, yeah, the chaos goes away. Now it's like, hey, everybody's just pointing in the same direction and they're excited about moving forward. So that's a great takeaway. I mean, you did a great job explaining it and being vulnerable. And I just. I feel like I got a great takeaway from how you described that.

Oh, thank you. Another thing that we're looking at, too, when we think about our customer vision that I think is important is who are they interacting with on their who's the org chart? So we literally call that out on our. We've created what we call vision in a box. And we called that out to say, okay, here's our customer, here's their profile, here's who they are, here's the data, here's the optimal results they're looking at, you know, and. But one thing is called out is who's the team they're interacting with? Because again, it's like, okay, what's their profile? What's the customer's profile? Constantly bringing that awareness to the front. So, yeah, we're trying to be way more intentional than we've been in the past.

It's all great stuff.

All right, Jody, I think we're about

out of time here for this episode. We're going to go to part three in the next episode, and we're going to focus all on how you take all of this work that's been done and you turn it into and you organize it into something that you call Playbook. Do you want to maybe give a teaser for the group just so that they kind of know what to expect in part three, which will be the next episode?

Sure. So Playbook for me has just been a powerful force of driving alignment throughout the organization on your initiatives and where you want to go next. So it encompasses both the vision and and the strategic plan to get there. So we will walk through why it's important, how it works, and then the cadence to make that Playbook successful that we've used.

That's outstanding.

So can't wait to get into that episode and to talk that through with you. Thanks again, Jody, for being on the episode today and thanks to all our listeners. Remember, if you've got any questions or you want to engage in a conversation on any of this concept around taking chaos, organizational chaos, and turning that into amazing results inside your organization, you can come over to the DSO Secrets Facebook group, put some questions in there, tag Jodi on it, and she'd be happy to engage and talk through anything there. I just volunteered you for that. You good with that, Jodi?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

All right. Awesome. Again, Jodi, it's just been great to have you. Look forward to the next episode and breaking down the concept of the Playbook and how you organize that. Thanks to our listeners for joining and as Emma always says, until next time, keep smiling.

Thank you for listening to DSO Secrets. Join our community on Facebook @DSO Secrets and get answers and resources to some of your most challenging questions. If you want to get a copy of the seven secrets of any DSO, go to our website at DSO secrets.com and we will get that emailed to you. Remember, don't go at this alone. Let us be your team while you build your team.