97: DSO Real Estate Secrets with Host Ken Kaufman and Guest Hosts Austin Hair & Nathan Palmer, Partner/Founder of Leaders Real Estate Development

Welcome to DSO Secrets. I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur in the dental industry. I've had my ups and downs just like you. There's so much opportunity to be excited about, but so few resources to get answers. From here on DSO Secrets, we get you those answers so you can change the lives you're meant to bless and achieve your personal success.

When I was working as an associate

right out of school, I never imagined I could own these many practices with this amount of support.

So thank you.

You have helped build my marketing mind

to a whole new level.

You have this natural talent, this unique ability. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the DSO Secrets podcast.

My name is Ken Kaufman, your host today, filling in for the always illustrious Emmett Scott. I'm excited to have two great guests with us. It's interesting in this DSO space and with many of you that I've had a chance to talk to and connect with through the months and years that we've been doing this, as well as those that are engaged in the DEO group, lots of questions come up about real estate. How to find the right location, how to negotiate leases, and so on and so forth. And so we have two experts in the field that have been working with DSOs that have spent a lot of time understanding the dynamics that are happening with DSOs in the dental space, as well as the overall real estate landscape. And so I want to take just a minute and introduce each one of them. First, Austin Hare. He's a partner at Leaders Real Estate Development. One interesting thing about his background is he was a professional wakeboarder for about

11 years, having retired.

What's been about three years since you retired, Austin?

Yeah, that's right.

Hey, well, we're really grateful to have

you on the show. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, it's a pleasure, man. Thanks for having me. You know, the wakeboarding world is quite different from the real estate world, but it's been a really fun transition, so outstanding.

And then we also have Nathan Palmer with us.

He was the founder, actually, of the Leaders company Real Estate Development. And you've been doing this for about 13 years, Nathan. Well, thank you, by the way, for being with us.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Great.

Well, let's go ahead and kick it off. I always like to ask this question at the beginning because those of us that are in the DSO industry, we love it. It's addictive. There's tons of opportunities, and we're all hungry to try to fulfill our visions, but sometimes we have to scratch our head and Wonder why are we still here? Because it is very much a wild, wild west. A consolidating industry takes a lot of heavy lifting and work to build out successful dental practices and then build out the proper support team. So tell us about what got the two of you into the DSO industry and what in the world are you still doing here?

It's a good question. So our background for the last 12 or 13 years has almost been exclusively in retail health care. We started in urgent care. And so I've been a part of, I think, over 500 new urgent care sites in 40 some states. And we really kind of became known in that space because we recognized very early on there was a disconnect between the strategy and ultimately the implementation for growth for those centers. And so we jumped into that space and that was really kind of what evolved and helped us create our team and is really kind of being that gap between kind of the Buxton and the traditional brokerage office, right? So we invest a ton of data and resources and kind of our theme is to provide. Provide the small guys with the amount of resources the big guys have, right? So a lot of our clients historically and still are big health systems and hospitals. And, you know, when you look at the resources and the millions of dollars they have for departments of real estate people, all kinds of analytics and data resources to throw at understanding areas, evaluating competition, it's just there's a big gap between that and your solo or small providers, who largely, you had a solo entrepreneur running, a former doctor maybe running, you know, kind of going from the chair to the office running two, then three, then five, then eight practices. And really our goal is to kind of find a way to be the gap, to provide kind of the big company resources to just the average small and independent operators. And so we did that, as I mentioned, we had a lot of success in urgent care. And a handful of years ago, it's actually a funny story, one of our urgent care clients was acquired by a large dental DSO and kind of got us starting to think of, hey, you know, there are other healthcare types that also benefit from the kind of the retail aspect of real estate. And so that in a combination of other variables, you know, we kind of decided, hey, you know, let's explore what it would look like if we were to not only do urgent care, right. And so we started down that journey three or four years ago and now have been fortunate enough to participate in several other healthcare segments. But one of the ones we're probably most excited about because it probably most closely Aligns with our background is dental. You know, because of the benefits of, you know, when I speak, we've kind of used this term called the retailization of healthcare.

Right?

But making healthcare more convenient, more accessible, more consumer friendly. Right. I mean, it's not, you know, we're not like a McDonald's where, hey, you see the, the golden arches and oh, I feel a little bit thirsty, I'll pull in and grab an iced tea or something like that. Right. You know, but as, as the medical world continues to look for the best way to conveniently find our patients and provide the best level of access and care, you know, the gap is closing and you know that the benefit of being in retail more prominent, more visible locations is becoming more and more valuable. And especially there's a lot of components to that, right? From the ability to ramp quickly to the ability to out position competition and how you evaluate all of that. But that was kind of a long answer to maybe a simple question. But we're really excited. We think there's, you know, when we work so much in urgent care, so much of it was all de novo growth. Right. And obviously a lot of that exists in the dental space. But you know, part of what, you know, we're so passionate about is, you know, we think there's so much opportunity, not just in de novo growth, but also reposition of existing assets. Right. You know, so much of the analytics and the work that we do is, you know, hey, I'm looking at buying this network of offices and you know, maybe half of them are located well, half of them are located poorly. Evaluating, hey, sure, we're going to pick up these 10 locations, we need to move five. Here's our growth plan around that and really finding a way because I think there's such great opportunity to really reposition healthcare right now. TYLEN and probably a lot of what we talk about today just because of COVID and how that's gonna accelerate businesses that were maybe already struggling, or maybe even restaurants that weren't struggling, but now are there's gonna be more better real estate available available than has been in the past. So interesting.

So I want to kind of take that. Nathan and so we see some interesting trends that are occurring. We're still in the midst of the COVID pandemic. I mean, we've seen it spike and then kind of slow down and spike and we're just, we're still in the middle of it that we, there aren't a lot of good ways to solve that. And that's obviously had A massive impact on commercial real estate. So love to here. You know, Austin, you can chime in. Nathan, what are you guys seeing? Some of the key trends are that DSO leaders need to be thinking about as it relates to commercial real estate.

Yeah, sure. You know, I'll piggyback off what Nate was saying. You know, essentially like it's this concept of retailization, right, which has been happening for a long time. And a lot of the big guys in the DSO spaces are really doing it well. And it's just switching from those office locations, the unseen locations, to the retail locations that have a lot of drive by traffic, have a lot of visibility. And so specifically talking about trends right now during this time of COVID it's, it's going to take a while for it to shake out. You know what I mean? We can only really make our best predictions at this point. But what we're predicting is that, you know, you're going to see these, you have several different levels of retail space. You've got like A, B, C, even D grade retail space. And so the A grade space is always going to be in demand. It's always going to have, have people vying for it and wanting it. And so you are going to start to see to some extent these restaurants that have been forced to close down or some other businesses go out of business unfortunately go under. And what that's going to do is provide opportunities for people who are positioned right to take advantage of that and get that grade A space. You know, they're not necessarily going to be getting a great deal on that, but it's going to become available and it might be now affordable or it just might be worth it. And so you're going to have to keep your eye out open for that. And the other thing is there's so many government programs right now that are helping out tenants, it's helping out landlords, and there's a lot of money that you can utilize to help with your cash flow. And so, you know, we're really encouraging people and we're helping people and we're open to helping whoever's listening if they need it to just, you know, renegotiating their lease or at least negotiating, maybe not renegotiating at least entirety, but negotiating some things that'll help them with their payments. Because, you know, like barring anybody who just signed their lease like during COVID or within the last six months, you know, most people, if you're coming up on signing it again or resigning or if you're looking at it or it's been maybe like a couple of years and this is all unforeseen when this happened, then potentially, you know, if you're not, if you haven't touched anything, you know, you're just leaving money on the table, even if you can't afford it. You know, it's just, it's within your best interest to see what's available and what you can do.

That's outstanding.

I appreciate that perspective. Another perspective I think would be really

helpful for the two of you to chime in on is it's tempting to not for dentists and DSO leaders to not buy into this trend of retailization and to look at more traditional medical space or stuff that is off of the retail path, if you will. Can you walk us through, and I'm sure you have these conversations with folks in the healthcare space in general, regularly walk us through how you help them think about and evaluate is it better to get cheaper rent off of the retail path where you have much lower foot traffic and car traffic, or is it better to spend maybe a third to 50% more or maybe even twice as much in rent and it's going to end up coming back to you in terms of more foot traffic and more patient flow. Can you tell us how do you help clients think through that math problem and come to a conclusion on what's best?

Yeah, I think the simplest, I think the simplest balance there is really just, you know, we try to look at everything as a function of required patient visits, right? So when you look at dental and you say, okay, you know, the average patient is worth $400 to us or $300, you know, obviously every, every different group we work with, depending on kind of their specialty or what they practice and may have a little different variable there. But ultimately, when you establish what that is, if you said, hey, you know, our option to be in a C location is X dollars, our option to be in an a location is $10 more a foot. Then, you know, we just look at it from a simple math equation of, okay, that's going to require 10 additional patients a month, right. Maybe two additional, you know, if you've got 20, 22 working days a month, you know, maybe an extra couple of half a patient a day, whatever it works out to do.

Right.

And do we feel like that position is going to provide access to that?

Right.

And.

But I think it's. I think there's a lot of variables or there's a lot of dimensions to it because there's one very pragmatic side that I just described, right. The other element is if you don't, your competition will.

Right.

And so I think that's one of the things that, you know, we're seeing more and more is it's, it's becoming, you know, how do you have, you know, kind of that most defendable position, Right. And so, you know, because the reality is, is if. If one of the larger DSOs in your market are not competing with you, they probably soon will be.

Right.

And so we want to make sure whether our clients got one site or five sites or whatever, that we are in the most optimal position to compete in that trade area.

Right.

Because you can't stop. You know, we saw this a lot. You know, we refer a lot of examples back or over to our urgent care work, but, you know, so much we'd say all the time, you know, there's more money than sense when it comes to how different hospitals operate. Right. Because they need to have coverage in certain areas and so they'll throw out locations not intending them to be profitable, just to have market coverage.

Right.

And so I think, I think when you look at, obviously, I wouldn't say any DSOs are maybe reckless like that, but when they look at a market and say, okay, here are the handful of competitors we're concerned about and here are the opportunities we can come because we've been on that side of the fence, right? We've looked at the market, we've looked at the competition that's poorly positioned. Say, yeah, we can go right here. We've underwritten the area from a demographic standpoint. We already are comfortable with the overall population to dental ratios and we have the opportunity to out position half of the competitors that are there in this market. So I think as this business continues to become more sophisticated and more competitive from that standpoint, you really have to think about it not only in and what is it going to cost me and rent, but what am I going to lose in potential patient traffic from a competitor eventually doing that same thing. And nobody's got a crystal ball. I don't know if it's going to happen in a year, five years, or maybe never. But certainly the pattern would suggest right now that there's going to be competition that is going to be in quality real estate and you need to be prepared for that.

Yeah, that's. It's a powerful perspective, actually. I love it because like you said, there's the pragmatic side of I need a half a patient more a month to pay for this extra rent or per day to pay for this extra rent. And then there's the other side of your competitors are going to go gobble up that space and they're going to be attracting that foot traffic and it's going to your marketing costs are probably going to go up over time to attract patients away from that shopping center that they're used to going to to buy their groceries or to, you know, do other types of shopping. So I think there's an interesting balance there. I want to do one thing.

There's got to be some line you don't cross. I mean, right. I mean there's going to be some price that is too, just too ridiculously. But yeah, certainly should be open to looking at that.

That makes sense. I want to, I want to come back to the de novo concept here in a second, but something's come up because I realize a lot of our listeners are actually in the process of doing acquisitions. So I want to go off script from our de novo topics here and just have you guys comment. You know, if I'm a dentist and or you know, I'm part of a DSO supporting dentist and we're looking to help them acquire a new practice, what are the top two or three tips you'd give them in terms of getting that lease assigned over to them? Because it's going to be very important that they take over that lease and they control that once they officially purchase, either they're purchasing the practice or the assets or the charts or whatever it is from that practice. Could you maybe put a couple of those out for our listeners?

It's a great, great question because again, it can be very complicated because we've seen so many times where the dentist selling the practice also owns the building. So the sale is contingent upon the new owner signing long lease in the current building. And what if that location is no longer or we don't feel as viable for the best position for us for some period. So you got a handful of characteristics and you know, we use the word kind of fundamentals a lot, right. So you know, we want to make sure the fundamentals are there, right. Do we have good real estate? Are the lease rates that I'm being asked to pay in line with what the market would suggest, right. Are they fair or if they're not, is there a reason they're not right. Like is so much of the bill am I my acquiring location where so much of the build out was built into the rent, therefore I understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, right. And so really understanding those characteristics there's different consequences if. Depending on the answers to some of those. Right. And then, you know, the other thing that we think is really, really important is really tying in a specific acquisition to what, whatever the bigger plan is. Right. So how is this acquisition going to impact our overall market, strategy and plan if we grow here? How is that synergistic with the other offices we have? You know, I mean, because, you know, different markets are different. Right. You have a market like Dallas that's enormous. I mean, it could take two hours with no traffic to make it from the all the way on the east side all the way to the west side. Right. And so as we're looking at the market dynamics and the strategy, you know, does it make sense, you know, as we're acquiring or de novoing these practices, you know, how close or far away from a, From a synergistic standpoint, is it functional to operate and open these locations? Right. Or take over? So I think you have a lot of different dynamics there. And then the last thing is we do a lot of patient profile mapping. So understanding, hey, my location's at XYZ street, and looking at the last couple years of patient records, mapping those out to say, okay, actually our patients are mostly coming from here or there's whatever. So to really understand, you know, the physical location may be what it is, but maybe the way they've been marketing or whatever the provider they have there, whatever influences has kind of attributed to it. But most of the patients may be coming from this direction or that direction.

Right.

Which may influence then kind of the long term, most viable spots for that office. So those would be some of the mean, a lot of basic stuff, but some of the things to be thinking about and then just making. Making sure that everything with whatever assignment or purchases is appropriate and matches everybody's kind of short and long term goals. Great.

Thank you, Austin. Anything to add to that? We can't hear you, Austin.

Sorry about that. Yeah, no, I mean, Nate summed it up really well. You know, a lot of times you might think that you are paying a ridiculous amount for the rent or whatever, but what are the reasons for that, you know, and just learning from who the landlord is or if it's contingent on the sale and seeing there was a high cost to build out. And so sometimes just going to take research and it's going to be a case by case basis, you know.

Absolutely.

So when maybe this is the way I want to phrase the question. So I'm either a dentist or I'm a business person. That's working, supporting a dentist who has this, there's just this big vision to grow and it's this thought process of hey, I could go anywhere in the world. And then you start narrowing down to, you know, that, that perfect place. What are the top two or three or four factors that are just non negotiables from your perspective when you're helping clients think about where should they grow next to from a de novo or an acquisition perspective? What are the top two, three, four metrics you guys look at that help you start to triangulate in on where the best opportunities are going to be?

Yeah, you know, the top three things that we look at would just be demographics, the competition and the quality of the real estate. And so when we say demographics, well, there's really two things. It's population density and its income. You know, and there's a lot more things that can go down from that. But you know, as income gets much, much higher, you know, that looks really good on paper, but usually that equates to like a really low population density. And so we like to have one practice for every 2,000 residents of the area. That's a kind of good rule of thumb. You know, it's again it's, it's not always going to be so perfect. Like it really depends on your market strategy and your, and your competition. And then just in dealing with that competition evaluation, you know, are they actually your competition? Right. Are they, are they in pediatrics? You know, they more Medicaid or like what are they going for and can you coexist with them in a sense? So we really like to do a deep dive into the competition and then quality real estate because you know, you just when you say quality of real estate, like this concept of retailization that we keep bringing up but you know, is it getting a lot of foot traffic? Is there getting a lot of drive by traffic? And you can have too much of that too, like if it's on a really, really busy plaza, you know, there's four lanes each way, then there's too much traffic, nobody's going to see you. They don't want to fight the effort of like, you know, making u turns to go into your location or whatever. And so I just say, you know, it really comes down to studying those three things and you can get as, as deep and technical as you want to, but those will really give you some insight into where is a good location versus what looks like a good location on the surface turns out to not be when you examine it.

Yeah, I really appreciate that perspective, actually. So, Nathan and Austin, I'd love to hear your perspective on this. So we kind of know where we've been with commercial real estate so far. We know Covid is changing the landscape to some degree. What are you guys looking at? What trends are you predicting here for the next 12 to 24 months in commercial real estate that specifically DSO owners, you know, doctors that have small groups that they're trying to grow or emerge into larger groups. What are the trends that they should be aware of and thinking about when it comes to their real estate strategy for the next 12 to 24 months?

Yeah, so I mean, we touched on it maybe briefly, a little bit, you know, you know, we just think that there's, there's good time, it's going to be a good season for upgrading healthcare.

Right.

In real estate. Right. So whether that means locations that weren't available, that will be available, locations that were too expensive, that, you know, the supply is just going to exceed the demand that's there as some of these tenants fall by the wayside with COVID So, you know, we think it's a good opportunity to be better, to be, you know, to come through this stronger. Right. You know, the one tricky thing that's different for dental user compared to, you know, a blockbuster type tenant is obviously for us to move it requires a lot of build out. Right. So it's got to be pretty strategic, it's got to be worthwhile. We can't just take a marginally better site and justify the cost. Right. And that's where I think, you know, there's going to be, you know, we focus on a lot of repositioning through some type of new or redevelopment, right. Where you know, if you can start a new project, you know, start a little strip center, you know, we're doing, we're doing a couple right now, or actually three of them right now where you know, we have a medical, dental related kind of starting use. They're already in the area, they're just relocating. And we found a nice pad in or near a major grocery center and guess what? Starbucks wasn't that trader. So we're doing, we're doing three deals right now with colocation projects with kind of medical anchored user in a Starbucks, right. And who's, who wouldn't want that type of profile location, right? A nice pad up on the road and it's you and Starbucks, you know, so, so just there's gonna be opportunities like that that historically have been harder, harder to get.

Right.

There's also, and we see this, you know, because we've done, you know, I'll do, I'll do probably more deals this year in California than any other state, even though I live in Florida. And you know, market by market, you know, we've watched over the last 10 or 12 years kind of the landlord's kind of adaptation or really comfort as it relates to healthcare and retail. And, you know, we think that's going to continue to slide in our favor. Right. You know, I mean, in maybe a little more kind of progressive real estate markets like a Dallas or Phoenix. I mean, you've seen a lot of healthcare and retail for many years, but there's still many parts of the country where you call a shopping center and you say, oh, I've got a dental user, like, well, why are you calling me? So I think that that is just another trend that's going to continue to become easier for this kind of segment of users, that they're going to be desired. Right? Because historically, I mean, we go through this all the time. We, we want to be in a shopping center because we want to benefit from the 10,000 people a week that go into the grocery store. Right? Well, what do we have to offer?

Right.

We see 25, 40 people. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we've gotten asked so many times, you know, how, how do you benefit the shopping center?

And

we're like, yeah, you know, we're a great tenant, we pay rent and we're, we invest a lot in the space, so we're probably not going anywhere. But our draw is not typically there. So I think some of that's going to continue to shift in our favor where we are going to be a more desirable tenant base than we've historically been. So I just think the opportunity to be creative, to put deals together if you can do something to redevelop or develop, you know, we love the opportunities where we can look at a network of locations and identify, hey, these 10 or 15 we would reposition if the right opportunity came available. And then being able to watch those areas, find something good as it comes available, put a really tenant favorable deal together that can maybe absorb a lot of the build out into the rent. So there's not a huge cost or burden on the practice to absorb that. And I think it's just we're going to enter a season of upgrading, you know.

Yeah, emphasize what you're talking about. Nate, we had a guest on our show, our podcast that we do, and he was just talking about, he's Dennis and just talking about how he was applying to have spent space at a retail spot. And they, they kept saying no. And they were at the. He was out in the Northwest and like, I think it was two or three times they told them no. And they allowed restaurants to come in. And two or three restaurants failed. The most recent one failed during COVID And they finally called them, they said, hey, are you still interested coming and renting space here? And so I think, yeah, I think you're starting to see more of a shift, more of an acceptance towards that outstanding.

You know, the default rate from a banking perspective in restaurants, I think it's 5, 8%. Somewhere up as high as that in dentistry, it's 0.53%. So at some point landlords are going to start recognizing that not only is dental solid, it has very high margins, but the likelihood of that dental practice not making rent is much, much lower than the three to four to five restaurants that you let cycle through there and burn through your ti money before you realize that, hey, if I settle in on a dental practice, this is a solid 20, 30 year play.

Yeah. And I think those are good statistics to have too, if you're trying to negotiate, you know, getting a spot with the landlord. Cool.

All right, so we're running out of time here, so we want to go through the lightning round, do this with all of our guests. So, Austin, we're going to subject you to this. Nate, Ethan, you can make fun of him later for some of these answers if he. If he's off base a little bit. And then we'll do a quick wrap up. First question, what are you currently working on that you are the most excited about?

Well, we are. It's kind of like two things. We've been growing our podcast, you know, commercial real estate Secrets that has been so much fun. We have had some amazing guests, a lot of people that have been here in the group, including yourself, Ken. And so that's been really great getting to know people and just building relationships. And then, yeah, our project, we took down a building in Missouri and we got Starbucks in there as the main tenant. And so we are really excited about the prospect of that there's still room to have another, you know, dental or urgent care there. And just been exciting working with them and opening up the door in that relationship because that's kind of, you know, a little bit of a new area for us, going with the boutique coffee, if you will.

Very nice. What are you the most proud of right now?

You know, I'm the Most proud of my wife. She's got an autoimmune disease called ankylosing spondylitis, and that just causes her pain, like, every single day. And it'll just randomly flare up. It's not very well known. It's extremely rare. If you guys know Imagine Dragons, the lead singer of that also has it. He's kind of spread some awareness. And she still gets up every day. She goes to work 10 hours a day. She's a dermatologist, and she trains for American Ninja Warrior. And so I'm just so proud of her every day. To see her pushing through it, that's awesome.

That's inspirational, actually. Favorite sports team?

Favorite sports team? You know, I'm not a traditional sports fan too much, but, you know, I just. Back in the day when I was growing up, I loved watching the Bulls. I loved watching Jordan go at it. And so that was the highlight for me.

Awesome.

Great answer. Favorite app on your phone?

Favorite app on my phone. I probably spend the most time on TD Ameritrade on my phone. It's become much too addicting. I may have a problem.

All right, all right. So you're an investor at heart.

Yeah, yeah. I've been getting a lot more into, especially this year.

Awesome. Okay, great. Yeah, we've had plenty of volatility. Hopefully you've benefited from some of that. And then we always ask, what's your favorite spreadsheet function?

You know, I like. I'm not super into. I always use spread. Like, I'm always reluctant to use spreadsheets, and I'll try and just do everything else. And then I just realized, this is just way too complicated. Let's take it to a spreadsheet. So I always end up using it by default, but I just love the basics, like, you know, the sum tool or the ability to format stuff and make it look nice.

Outstanding. All right, so I have one parting question. The overarching question here is, what advice do you have in parting for these dentists and emerging group leaders that are trying to figure out how to grow their businesses? And I think I want to steer you, if that's okay. I want to steer you toward the conversation around how do they find. Coach them on how to find the best real estate professional? And I want to remind our listeners, a dentist goes to school for years and years and then practices that training, becomes an expert. At the end of the day, when your patient comes in, they have no way to evaluate your technical expertise. They have the one measurement of am I in? We talked about this before the show. Awesome. But it's like, am I in less pain when I leave than when I got there? They can't evaluate how well you did that three surface filling or how well you prepped that crown and how the margins were spot on. So can you give our listeners, give them some insight into how can they really vet and think through finding the right real estate professional that's going to give them the right resources and help them make the best decisions for their business?

Yeah, you know, it's extremely important to vet your brokers because I can't tell you how many times that somebody uses a broker because a, it's their brother or their cousin or their golfing buddy. Right. Or they just, their friends somehow they're acquaintances and they just say, oh, yeah, like I do commercial real estate too. But what you don't realize is how much you're sacrificing. I mean, you know, dental has the most expensive build out in almost any industry. And so when you pick that location and you sign that lease and you build out, you are, you're stuck there. It is very difficult to move. And so you could be having these long lasting negative effects on your business if you don't do your proper research and due diligence. And so just a quick rule of thumb, I would say the easiest thing to do is just ask how many deals have you done for me in my industry specifically for dental, like how many dentists have you helped pick a location? And the number should be greater than 10. You know, it's a little bit of an awkward question, but I mean, it's just worth it in the long run to make sure that you're being upfront about it and you're vetting those people to make sure that they're experienced.

Yeah. It comes down to figuring out how to pay for their experience rather than pay for them to get experience, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So make sure they've already got some experience and some reps under the belt.

Yeah. You know, and you know, you don't want to be cutthroat because everybody can start somewhere and we all want to help people, but they don't necessarily have to start with you. Right. In this particular area.

That's right.

Awesome.

So in parting here, Austin Nathan, how can our listeners, besides the fact. I know, I know. Austin, especially you, are over in the DSO Secrets Facebook group. So anyone who's got questions, anything real estate related, come on over there, Ping Austin. And he'd be happy to engage in a conversation any other ways you'd recommend for them to reach out and connect

with the two of you?

Yeah, sure. You know, the DSO Secrets page is great. Yeah, I'm on there. You can just find me Austin Hare. Tag me, whatever. My email address is. A hair. So like just, just like hair on your head. A hair@leadersre.com and so it's like leaders. And then re is in real estate dot com. And then we have our podcast too, for anybody who is interested in listening. It's just called Commercial Real Estate Secrets, which Ken, of course, graced us with his presence pretty recently.

So, yeah, that show is a lot of fun. Well, again, thanks you two for joining. It's been a pleasure. And I think our listeners are going to get a lot of value as they think about their real estate strategies here moving forward. So we appreciate all your insights and I want to thank all of our listeners for joining in. Feel free to come on over and engage at the DSO Secrets Facebook group. Always happy to get the conversation going there and there's always several conversations going at a time. So love to have you contribute however you'd like to.

Yeah, we love the group personally. I mean, it's been, we've been on a few months now and yeah, it's been really impactful. Even even though we're like indirectly related, we've gotten a lot of value out of it.

Outstanding. Many, many thanks to all of you listening today and to our guests today and just want to wish you all a happy day.

Thank you for listening to DSO Secrets. Join our community on Facebook at DSO Secrets and get answers and resources to some of your most challenging questions. If you want to get a copy of the seven secrets of any DSO, go to our website at dsosecrets.com and we will get that emailed to you. Remember, don't go at this alone. Let us be your team while you build your team.