#48 - Claus Rose - Making Safety Instinctive: On Leadership, Trust & Change

And the most important part, if you're a leader, you cannot transform anybody if you haven't undergone the same pain and agony yourself.

Cool. So if you haven't transformed individually, good luck. It's just not going to work.

Correct, because what do you have to show for yourself, right? So it's kind of, I get back to a colonel who once told me when I was a young officer, he said, remember one thing, regardless of what kind of rank you hold, in battle, they mean zero. If people don't trust the person, the rank means nothing. But if they trust the person, then the rank becomes irrelevant. They're just looking at you for answers.

As a headman, as a leader.

That's where we need to get to, and that's what it means. Just because you hold a title means nothing if you're not able to kind of be at the same level with the people that you actually have to help.

Klaus, how are you? Good to see you again.

Well, I'm good. Thanks, Musa. Really nice to see you again. So happy to be in London with you.

Amazing. Honestly, I remember when we spoke last, it was April 2024. It's been a long time and I've been seeing you throughout in different events.

Yep.

But yeah, how have you been? What have you been up to?

Well, I've been very busy, so I kind of finalized my work with the Ivanova, putting them or helping putting them on the stock exchange last year in April. That was a lot of fun. It was tough, but it was a very great learning experience. I wouldn't have not wanted to do that. So it was really, it was a cool experience and I'm grateful for having had that opportunity.

Can you give us a bit of background there? So it was like, it was on for a few years, there was—

It was literally, I was really pushing that we kind of got the quality and EHS and the liability size kind of on the frame, so to speak. So we got late to the game. So we literally had 18 months because the only thing that didn't change was the 2nd of April. That was kind of the date where we needed to get on the stock exchange. So we needed to build anything for a standalone company within that area. including dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars of liabilities that we needed to kind of squeeze down to a size that would then be acceptable by your investors. So it was tough. Great team, great experience, but I'm happy it's over.

Not many people can say that they were involved in an IPO preparation process.

No, no. So that's why I think it was a really great journey. And then after that, I decided that I wanted to do something else. So I started on my own, literally, because I got a little bit sick and tired of just hearing people talking about the same thing over and over again when we talk about culture transformation within quality and EHS. And when you then start digging into the details and then figure out, you know, the people that actually looked at that, so the likes of McKinsey and Forbes over multiple years, they come to one very astonishing conclusion that people that wanna do that, 70% of those fail. Irrespectively, they put a ton of money behind that. So it's It's just waste, right? So you're just wasting money, time, and efforts to try and do something that you should be doing. I just got sick and tired of kind of seeing that happening over and over again and not really have an answer to how to—

How to do it successfully.

How to do it successfully. So that was my quest. I wanted to figure out how to kind of crack the code, so to speak.

Right, and to clarify what that means, you mean change, right?

Change, yeah.

So 70% of organizations that try to carry out strategies to change, to drive change or transformation, fail. Yeah. As a data point. Right. Cool.

Yeah. And it's literally, if you have a result that you don't like, it could be you wanna have less injuries, you wanna have lower non-conformance cost, or you wanna have more revenue. It really doesn't matter. Change is change. The topic may vary, but the underlying issue is exactly the same. So it's all in one, so to speak.

Okay. And what's your insight? So why do they fail?

So my insight is, if you look at the McKinsey studies, they kind of come up with 3 elements. It's inadequate change management. So you don't understand literally what it takes. You don't understand what it takes to change a human. We'll get back to that. And then it's not realizing the culture that's already there. So not accepting the fact and then trying to kind of push a new culture on top of something that's already there. That's difficult upfront. And then the last part is interesting because people always talk, yeah, we can change from the top or we can change from the bottom. But the truth is you need both. And that's why I think a lot of, if you, in particular in the safety world, when you talk about safety 1, safety 2, it's all about you need to change from the frontline and you need to have the tone from the top. Yeah, that's true. But how do you kind of bring those 2 together to kind of be at the same level? Nobody talks about that. And when it comes to the inadequate change management, it's very interesting when you then dig deeper and figure out how long time does it actually take a human to change? So let's use you as an example. Yeah. Okay. You want to do 25 pushups today. You are able to do 1.

Barely. Maybe half.

No, no, but well, let's just, just stay with me. You could do 1 and then you and I agree that you're going to do 25. So you tell me you're going to do 25. I may give you some hints on how to do it. I may give you some ideas on how to improve your ability to do it, but that's pretty much it. And then I'm gonna leave you with it, but I'm constantly gonna remind you to have to be able to do 25 pushups at a certain time that you and I have agreed that you wanna do it. And that's the interesting part where people completely misunderstand that it's kind of like running a marathon. You're gonna have sequences in that process of change where you're gonna running against a brick wall where you need to change tactics.

And those things are stopping me from—

Correct.

Mental constraints.

Because then otherwise your brain is gonna take over. And your brain is gonna tell you, I'm born lazy, so, you know, 5 is good enough.

Yeah.

So you're gonna settle with 5. So you never got to the point where you actually created the change. You kind of got somewhere and nowhere. And literally that's exactly what happens in an organization.

And convince myself that, okay, I made some progress.

You've made some progress, but literally it was not the progress that we kind of set out to do in the first place.

Right.

And that is an interesting point. where if you kind of then put that into an organization, say, now I wanna change an organization, who talks about the 66 days of change? Nobody.

And 66 days of change is the average time?

That's an average. So it could take 200 days, it could also be less, but the average is around in about 66 days that it takes for a human. But they kind of have the same phases that you would have, maybe 2 or 3 phases where you're gonna have items where you need help to kind of bypass that. And literally, What you want to get to is you're going to move away from brain memory to muscle memory.

Hmm.

And again, who uses muscle memory? Very simple. I spent 20 years in the armed forces. As an officer, I get the same basic training as the soldiers that I was commanding. Why? Well, I'm just as vulnerable against bullets flying, right? So if I don't get on my tummy, if somebody's shooting at me, then I'm going to be just as dead as anybody else. As hard as it sounds, but that's why you learn the distinct sounds of either incoming artery or artillery or mortar fire or somebody shooting at you. And then you get on your tummy and then you know what you need to do. And then you think afterwards, but your muscles is literally driving you down to the ground and that's what you want to get to. So if you can get that into an organization where you get muscle memory in front of your employees that's working in a factory, out in the field, Then they will eventually get to a point where they just do it because it's easier to do it than not doing it. And that's the whole point of muscle memory. I just do it for instinct and then I can reconsider what's behind it afterwards, but I just do it. So the more you can install that and the more you can put those, I would say, functions into the individual that you work with, then it's also easier to add that up. New people that come into a structure to kind of feed them into the same—

The same system.

Same system. So that's what they do in the armed forces. That's why they don't have EHS and quality people. They don't need them. Everybody is kind of trained to do this self. They know if they're not good enough, they could literally end up dead.

They can end up dead. The insight is most companies really don't know how to change or transform.

Correct.

And of course, it's a big, complex system. And typically, the core of the problem is because people stop and get complacent at a certain point. It just requires a lot of depth and you need to keep going at it. And one of the things that you've analyzed when you look at the situation is focusing on driving change through muscle memory as well as an enabler in transformation. It's like, go that deep. Don't just like reactively try to change and transform as an organization.

And the most important part, if you're a leader, you cannot transform anybody if you haven't undergone the same pain and agony yourself.

Cool. So if you haven't transformed individually, good luck.

It's just not gonna— Correct. What do you have to show for yourself, right? So it's kind of, I get back to a colonel who once told me when I was a young officer, he said, remember one thing, regardless of what kind of rank you hold, in battle, they mean zero. If people don't trust the person, the rank means nothing. But if they trust the person, then the rank becomes irrelevant. They're just looking at you for answers.

As a human, as a leader.

That's where we need to get to. And that's what it means. Just because you hold a title, means nothing if you're not able to kind of be at the same level with the people that you actually have to help.

Yeah, it's like as a human, your biggest responsibility is to actually change yourself and work on yourself internally. And by doing that, you'll naturally be so equipped through just an authentic relationship with people where they see you being changed and acting differently. And that way they'll trust you and follow your lead.

So that's kind of, I would say, the fundament. And then I spent a lot of time figuring out how can I then put that into a format that makes sense for people to learn. We call it the Trinity concept. So literally the Trinity of the health management part where I make a mental or physical change myself. I understand what kind of tools to the culture, which is the second piece that I then have to bring into the equation. So I get simple tools where I actually train people to do the right thing per muscle memory over time. And then the third piece is looking at data because it doesn't help You can have all of the best tricks in the world, but if you're focusing on the right thing, what's the point? And today, unfortunately, there are a lot of organizations that just doesn't focus on the right thing. And we figured it out with one of the tools that we used inside of GE Renewables, where we actually started using machine learning and AI, and then had a pretty significant aha moment where, okay,

we're

not looking

at the right

things. We're not doing the right things. So now we need to kind of, I would say, shift horses and then kind of get back on track. And it literally made a massive difference. So that's And then we said, okay, now we have the trinity. Now we also need to have the time. So the time is important that you can also drive the—

Change, which is like—

Change for the individual, that you have to get past this point where people do things regardless whether it's cold, whether it's wet, whether it's hot, whatever it is.

Good, bad.

It doesn't matter whether they're in a bad mood, they're just gonna do it because—

You've given them space and time.

Correct, because the body tells you you have to go do something. something and then you're gonna do it. So we actually follow them through this. And then we have, I would say it's a combination of online, get to know, face-to-face where we literally take them through a process where they learn what it takes to get to the next point in their life, but also give them tools that they can actually bring home. And then they go back home, try to work with the tools, and then they come back and then share. So what did you learn? What was the pitfalls? Where did you need help? What kind of help did you get?

Yeah, did you get sucked into your old pattern?

Correct.

Were you able to get the muscle memory?

And then you just send them back, but then you stay with them for another couple of months. So literally the whole program is about 6 and a half months, round and about.

Okay, I'm gonna take a step back. So you highlighted, I feel, your journey and the insights, and the insights are around, you know, people, it takes time to change. You have to build your muscle memory. You have to focus on yourself and your patterns, and you have a Trinity program. And you're saying we as a program, but what program are we talking about here? So after you left GE, you started an organization?

I created an organization that's called SAFe STEPS 24.

SAFe STEPS 24. And what's behind the name before we—

So I actually spent a lot of time considering. So let's start from the back, 24. It was founded in '24. But literally, if you look into the program per default, we have 24 tools in the box.

Cool.

So that's kind of the other one. And then the SAFE steps has nothing to do with the fact that we are focusing on safety, not at all, but it's actually safe for people to go through this process. So you get gradually more comfortable getting from where you are today to where you need to be, both personally but also in an organizational context. So that's kind of the name behind the brand.

Cool. So it's like there are 24 tools that you have access to that will help you grow, but you're also taking steps. Right. So you're kind of growing through a ladder of change.

Correct.

Cool. So that's the organization. I know you're starting it with a group of fantastic people. And to what you've been explaining now, kind of what your insights you were able to put together as a program so people can sign up, tell us more about that program.

Yeah, so the program in its own right is really about having an opportunity for an individual that could be an operational leader. It could be people that are working in leadership positions within quality and EHS that kind of want to learn I would say a new way of doing things, they're the ones that should sign up. And then we also made it very compact, both in size where we said we want to have only 20 people. So it's limited to 20 people and we are only gonna have it twice a year. So we wanna make sure that it's—

It's very focused. Like,

it's very focused, but it's also limited. Not that we don't want to give it more, but it's, it's putting a lot of strain on the team as well. And I probably want to spend 2 minutes talking about that because before the individuals come in, they literally have to go through a questionnaire. So they themselves decide what they want to change personally, and then they sign up. But they also tell us what it is that they want in a smaller context to change when they get back home. And that means that we, from a team perspective or facilitation perspective, have to then adjust whatever we then have in front of us, given what the individual student is actually expecting. So that is why it's tough on us as well.

Yeah, I love that. It's like you're going into a hyper-special, like you're bringing a very powerful group of experts and we'll talk about them in a second. I want to learn more. And you're focusing on 20 people over a 4.5-month period. So it's a very individualized program and you're adapting your program based on their change needs, you know? So it sounds like spaces are typically going to be super limited in such a program, right?

Yeah, and that's also why we wanted to keep it limited because literally we can physically not master more.

Give them the right level of quality. And focus. And okay, so let's take a step back and talk about the team.

Yeah.

So it's yourself and just give us a quick view on who you've got.

Yeah, so I have Janet Asimura, who is a medical surgeon.

Yeah, she's been on the, on the cast.

She's been on the podcast, so you know her already. She has a very interesting way of talking to, I would hate to call it hearts and minds, but it's really talking to people's heart when it comes to managing risk. And that's what she does very well. She's very humble, but has some very good tools and ideas that we have decided to bring into this that we can actually help. So she's one.

Yeah.

I have found a guy called Andreas Thomas, who is a guy that I used to work as a sports scientist, psychologist for the German Olympic Training Centers, helping high-performance individuals, teams perform at their best. He's now stepped out and is actually doing coaching for, I would say, busy leaders to become mentally and physically better. equipped to handle their job. So he's all about this transformational change. So he's gonna be one of the key elements of helping individuals change whatever they wanna change.

So he understands, like, the core of individual change.

Correct. Then I have Rasmus Leissner, who is, I would say, in the team predominantly for 2 reasons. One, he's really a clever guy, but knows a lot about lean and also how to transform basic lean philosophy into a context that we can use where we use other tools that he's been working in the past. And have had quite a lot of success with that. And then I have Peter Simon. Peter Simon is, I would say, the data guru, so to speak. So he understands machine learning and AI and also helps people understand how to read data and what kind of options that they have and how difficult it is actually for a human to make sense of data that you have in front of you, even though that we claim we can solve everything. Not really. So that's gonna be also an aha experience for the people that gets into the program to figure out exactly how difficult it is to Even do simple tasks. And here's why you're gonna learn it. Then I have Ian Oliphant-Thomas, who is a, I would say, leadership coach. He's been working predominantly with very high-risk organizations like nuclear energy, coal mines, mining, and stuff like that, and have always had a very pragmatic approach to how to actually have teams come together and then learn. I would say muscle memory from a frontline perspective. So this is what he does very well. The last one is a guy called Tony Atherton. Tony, background HR out of Rolls-Royce, ran the entire HR organization for Rolls-Royce, and has now stepped in to be, I would say, a leadership coach or a program developer. And he literally, for this program, is the one that is kind of gluing everything together. So he's the one that kind of makes sure that we adapt to the customer needs, so to speak, and then also have a very good understanding of how to drive human behavior performance that then links into this personal development side of it. So a very broad mix of teams.

Yeah, a very powerful, very experienced group of people. Yeah. It's impressive.

Yeah. And then the last piece, which has nothing to do with a coach, but is also important, I've actually engaged with the university in Aarhus in Denmark because they really like the approach and they want to have people involved. And they're also the ones that are helping create the questionnaire. Because we want to make sure that we can use it from a scientific perspective as well. So they would eventually start doing a study to see whether it actually works. So for us, it's also important that we figure out, okay, where do we need to change? So we're actually going to have a university also backing us.

Loved. Okay. That's so powerful. Honestly, I only know yourself and Jeannette, and the two of you are amazing, especially like when I had a conversation with Jeannette, honestly, she's such a compassionate, deep, caring leader. Like, she's able to help people reflect on the core of human relationships and how to operate with people in a way where you care about each other and push each other forward. And it seems like you've maintained that same caliber in a very good, experienced group of people, which is extremely powerful.

Absolutely. So we met to kind of go over the program that I laid out initially, and then we started drawing. We spent 3 days together, and after the last day, Everything looks very different, which was good. It got better. And then we kind of figured out exactly how we can put each other into the mix and where we provide especially more value add than some of the others and where we have our advantages over some of the others. So the whole diversity of the team is also what makes it extremely strong.

Absolutely. And it's just gonna keep getting better and better and better and better. Yeah. It's like you're, you'll create a wheel of, of transformation and change. Do you foresee individuals signing up themselves to this, or do you see organizations now being the main drivers of putting their leaders and their teams in this program?

I think it could be both because the whole dynamic of having the 20 people, of course, it will be beneficial to have people from multiple organizations because there's also a learning experience for everybody.

Networking and you connect with each other. Correct.

But it could be a, you know, a corporation that goes in and say, hey, we want, you know, the 20 spots. Okay, then the 20 spots are gone.

Yeah.

Literally.

And how much of my time is it gonna take when you say 66 days and it's a 4.5-month program? How much is it full-time, full-time for 66 days? How does it work? No,

it's 6.5 months, literally. So you start out where you then commit yourself to go through this program. So in essence, the first part is you need to fill out a questionnaire that's gonna take you, you're gonna be mentally challenged. So you have to spend time. So I would reckon that you would probably do that within, let's say, Less than an hour. So you're gonna spend an hour doing that because that's your commitment. So you need to make sure that you actually stick to your commitment. So that's why I said you probably want to spend a little bit.

And that's gonna wake me up to patterns and things that I have, maybe I haven't noticed.

Correct. And then there is a 90-minute introduction call where we are gonna explain them what it is that they're gonna go through. We're gonna give them the setup for module 2 where they're actually gonna come together for 3 days. Very full days, and then get submitted to some of the key tools that they have to use themselves, but also use when they get back. Once that's done, then they have around 2 months' time back home where they then keep working on their own. They have regular, we call them check-ins. We don't call them coaching sessions because we are not coaching them. We just check in.

Facilitating.

We are facilitating. They're the ones telling us what they need. And that's also a tool that they're gonna learn. And then they have to work on the task. And that task has to be captured in a written form that has to be handed in to show progress, fail, honor, because it's gonna get rated. And then we're gonna check in, we're gonna follow up. They have to then provide status on where they are, both personally, but also from a business perspective. Once they've done that, we pull them back again for a little over 2 days, and then it's all about lessons learned, sharing good ideas, whether we missed something, and then And then kind of go around the room and then give people credits for what they've done, but also telling them, so you're not over the hurdle yet. You're kind of, you're getting close. You can see the end of the— there is light at the end of the tunnel and it's not an ongoing train. So it is gonna come, but you need to stay focused because if you're not, you're gonna fall back in old habits. So it's now is really the tricky part. So for the next 4 months, we are literally gonna be having a biweekly check-in where we just stick with them and they are every day gonna give us an update on where they're at. So I would say over this 6 and a half months' time, they're probably gonna be spending maybe 3 and a half weeks timewise, round and about that.

That's powerful. So it's really not disrupting people, their work and their day-to-day activities. And at the same time, the way I look at this as you're talking about it is putting myself in a position of change, of like starting to move And that takes time and it takes iterations and it takes— it's like you start opening up and you start finding things out and you start learning that, oh, change is actually possible. And over time, we keep unraveling more and more and more and more. But it's like you're kicking the wheel in the positive direction for change over a long period of time. And you have a very strong group of professionals around you who are very diverse in their experience, but also a group of passionate leaders, 19 other passionate leaders around you. So you're also kind of fostering a community. Yeah. People who can like start collaborating and contributing and helping each other over time. I really like that, honestly. It's so cool. You've gone from corporate, very large organization to now really building out this powerful system that enables people to grow and enable. So it must feel great. How are you doing now? How do you feel about this whole change?

It's really exciting because you get to do something that you really believe in first and foremost, but also get an opportunity to work with very amazing people. And also utilize the network that you have in a very different way. That's a challenge, but it, it's really a nice challenge. But I really enjoy this where you, you have an opportunity to help drive change in a very different way because nobody else has done this before.

Yeah.

It's literally the first time. So I think this trinity is gonna be interesting to see what kind of change that makes because it's really moving away from what I would call traditional approach to culture transformation.

Yeah, like I can see the glow in you as you're talking about it, you know, and for me as someone who is, for example, a leader in an organization, you have gone through such an interesting career between your time at the army and then working at a very senior role in an organization like GE and GE Vernova and then working towards helping them IPO.

Yeah.

Bringing all that experience but also your amazing network. People who are kind of like in the mid-level of their career, they're just becoming leaders and managers, it's also going to help them speed up their growth, their leadership ability, their belief in themselves, the energy around people, people around them. I think there's a place in the leadership journey where people learn that leadership is actually about letting go of your ego and just focusing on other people in compassionate ways and like letting your guard down. And by being someone people can trust, You naturally will grow a lot in organizations because you're someone who's helping organizations move forward and you're helping bring people together. I feel like such a, such a, such a program will help crack that.

I hope so, because we talked about it earlier. I think that there's one thing that kind of makes me really, really intrigued because it's just reflecting what I've done many years back when I was doing a lot of parachute formation skydiving. And I was lucky enough to get involved in creating a program in Europe called Basic Body Flying, which was literally a university study on how to drive muscle memory into people that were doing formation skydiving faster. And literally, that was interesting because you had to get rid of, I would say, old traditional way of doing things.

Which is like before you had to do—

You just had to do trial and error. You know, you just go up and then you figure out and then you learn along the way. But you literally had 30 seconds of opportunity to kind of learn.

Free fall where you can literally make a mistake.

So here it was a ton of time, you know, hours on the ground before you got even into the sky. So the interesting part was 21 jumps. The study showed that these people were at a level around about 600 jumps compared to people that had used the old methodology. So what I'm trying to do here is literally doing the same. I want to literally skyrocket people that have 600 jumps today to be smarter and just using 21 jumps to get to their cultural transformation.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, it makes complete sense. You know, you're a reaction machine. The body is always reacting to patterns and things that we've probably taken from our childhood, but also probably like genetically from like our parents and our parents' parents. And it's just teaching the body a different way that is healthier and energizing versus de-energizing, you know. But yeah, honestly, I'm so happy to hear this change. I'm excited for where you guys are going with this. What are things that you feel you want to achieve? Do you have a— beyond changing and improving people's lives, do you have a vision for this in the long term?

Yeah, so the longer vision is also— we talked about the university in Denmark. I think the longer vision is also trying to find a more suitable program that you can put on a university study. There is also a logic behind trying to spend the time that you spent, and that would make that potentially a viable option going forward. So that would be I would say what we are hoping for. Because then you also have something that you could put into a marketplace in a more broad sense.

Exactly. That more people can benefit from.

Correct. Because we have limited options, right? And I wanna make sure that if it makes the change that everybody hopes, and I believe that it's gonna do, we wanna make sure that it's readily available for anybody. And then you have to put it into the normal school system, so to speak.

Yeah. Whenever you're ready after a few years. also involve me here. We can simulate it all and get into immersive programs.

Absolutely. No, no. So that's really the long-term goal.

I

love it. But it's also a, if it works, then it's also for me going forward, a way to go into organization, of course, or help them change specific items that wanna change maybe in a different context. But the backbone of what we are trying to do with the masterclass is literally the same. So we are trying to help people understand what it takes to change. And then if they get that flavor and then you have enough of those that actually makes the wheels spin, then you're gonna get to a point where you have enough people and then it becomes, this is the way we work around here mentality.

100%. And with these things, word of mouth is like the strongest thing ever. You know, like when you go through such a program, you're gonna be trying to bring everyone you care about to do it because you realize that they have the same walls that you had before you started that are blocking you from growth and change. You're like, look, I can see that you're not gonna understand the things I'm gonna explain to you. You just need to throw yourself into that program. But then when you're contributing so much value to people, thinking about scale, it's so powerful because not everyone has probably the financial means and the time means to be able to do a lengthy program like that. But having something that gives you a similar pattern. Yeah. And in a few years, I hope like we'll catch up again here of how that looks like, because I do know some programs that actually stopped and said, not in HSE, but said, no, we're gonna keep it focused. and long because it needs depth. You can't make it something that is simpler. It'll be interesting to hear what you will think in a few years after many, many sessions.

Happy to do so. I'll keep my end of the promise and say, yeah, we can do that.

Yeah, awesome. Is there anything that you wanna share with listeners?

No, it's just, of course, people can go on the website and they can sign up if you wanna sign up. If people need, it's on the—

So

safesetpoint.com. There is the masterclass described and there is a signup page. And once it's full, it's full. If people want to have more information, they're of course more than welcome to reach out and we can give them more background information to all of the things that we talked about, the studies and the logic behind what we're doing. But in essence, it's also, it's a new approach and we are really, really looking forward to it here in the beginning of May, starting the next class. That would be amazing.

Amazing. I'm sure you have limited spaces, so if people want to know more, they need to probably move fast.

Yeah. So end of signup is April 2nd, literally.

Cool. We'll link the website to this episode. We'll link the team. If you have anything that you want us to share as well, let us know. But honestly, I'm so excited for you. I'm so excited for this program. We'll hopefully keep hearing updates from you over time.

Yep. I'll keep you in the loop, Moussa. I'll promise you that. Also, if we kind of get to a point where it could be interesting for you to talk to maybe some of the people that are on the training as well.

Yeah, that would be—

To get their feedback.

Yeah, I'd love to.

So I think in essence, that would be probably the next step.

Great. Awesome. Thanks a lot for coming here, Klaus, and we'll hopefully speak very soon.

Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure, Musa.

Awesome.