External Lockdown: A Time For Internal Growth with Sara Davison

When I'm training my coaches, I train people to become breakup and divorce coaches. They say to me, but I'm not as confident as you, Sara, or I'd never want to do a video thing like you do. Or I don't know as many amazing people like you, Eric. You know, how do I do what, what you do? I'm like, you don't. You know, I've got me down just like Eric. You've got you down like no one can beat us. You've got to be the best you. And I think when people click into that and I look at with my coaches now, one of my coaches, she survived cancer, so she wants to be a breakup and divorce coach. She's also coaching cancer. So we're combining it. It's not about ditching her experience and just taking this new set of skills on. It's about putting everything together and being the best version of her. You know, I've got a bereavement and breakup coach. I've got domestic abuse coaches who've been through abuse and come out the other side and are combining that and helping people. And when they step into their own stride, when anyone steps into their own, you know, their own shoes instead of trying to step into somebody else's, that's when it clicks. That's when you connect with the passion. That's when books become easy to write. That's when clients are knocking on your door. That's when the shift happens.

Welcome back. I'm Erik Edmeads and we're here with another episode of Thrive tv. And today I've got a really special guest, Sara Davidson. And I've known Sara for a very, very long time. Longer than either any of us would probably want to admit to, but a long time. And in fact, I'll share a little story about how Sara and I met. I'm not even sure if you really know this story.

Okay, this could be interesting.

Well, because I had been involved in Tony Robbins seminars and stuff back in the US When I moved to London, their team would often reach out and ask me to come to the events and support them and not really be on crew, but really be there, like maybe to help them sell their higher end programs, that kind of stuff. And so as a consequence, I would always get a crew bracelet and that would give me full access to the entire place. So, you know, it's going to be five, six thousand people there and I would be able to get in. And so I would always go and score myself a couple seats in the front row. And then, you know, as this. As people started looking around for front seats, I would selectively choose who got to sit in the front row with me. That's how we first met the first time.

It is. You were saving seats.

I was saving seats for the appropriate energy of the right person in the room. And so there you were. And we had some fun. It was a good party.

Yeah, it was great.

So. And we've gone through unbelievable evolutions since then. We've gone through marriages and we've gone through children, and we haven't gone through them, but we've had the experience becoming parents and all that sort of stuff. And of course. And you've written a number of books and you've really gotten involved, having gone through a particularly challenging uncoupling, you've really gotten involved in becoming the divorce coach, and you've been supporting people through that process, through breakup recovery retreats. You've got your book uncoupling, and you're doing just really incredible work, getting fantastic media. And I'm glad to have you here because I've had some relationships, you know, let's call, you know, experts. Such a strange word, but I've had some relationship specialists on the show. I had Bruce music. We interviewed Bruce Music from Love at First Fight. I had John Gray on as well. So it's been really good to be talking about that. But I'll tell you, one of the questions I've been getting a lot from people is my ex is being unreasonable, My ex wife, my ex husband is being unreasonable during this lockdown. There's custody issues. There's all kinds of stuff. And I want to know how to communicate. And Sara. So I just want to say I'm glad to have you here because it's not all about, how can I. How can a husband and wife get along better now they're locked up in a house? It's also, how can an ex wife and an ex husband get along while they have to navigate this situation? So thank you so much for being here.

You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me. It's really an honor to be here.

I want to share with you, I guess, in a sense, three stories that I've been dealing with in my close proximity that I've been observing. And then let's jump into a conversation about navigating stuff. Story number one is a friend of mine lives in Northern California. She had a fling. The fling resulted in a child. So there was no marriage, there was no relationship to begin with. And there's been contentious custody issues going on and now he's a first responder and so he's out on the front lines of what's going on. And he has court ordered visitation rights and she doesn't feel comfortable about him visiting with their four year old because, well, he's likely been exposed and he is insisting upon visitation rights and the police enforced his visitation rights. So that's one extreme example of what's going on. Another example is another friend, a pair of friends of mine. I'm friends with both the husband and the wife. They split up some, maybe it's been a couple of years now, and they have sort of a form of shared custody or only they live here in the Caribbean. And all of a sudden the husband is off in Canada and wants the kids to come to Canada because he feels that's the safest thing to do. And she wants them to stay with her because she feels that's the safest thing to do. And in their case, the kids are old enough that unfortunately they're being kind of forced to make the decision, which is difficult because of course now they're dealing with, well, I'm letting one parent down or the other. And then the third story, which is maybe nicer than all of them, is some friends of mine that stood up fairly recently, like maybe nine months ago. I've now, I mean, I swear it's if I didn't know. In fact, I think you know one of them and probably she's taken a lot of guidance from you on this, but they have had one of the most conscious uncouplings I've ever seen. They're being incredibly responsible about, about the way they're dealing with children in custody through the whole thing. So there's a variety of experience out there. What I'd love to know from you is let's start with this. The husband and wife have different opinions about how urgent this situation is. Right? I mean, let's be honest, what was hysteria four weeks ago is now common sense. And it just takes some of us longer to get there than the others. So, you know, the husband's like, hey, yeah, the kids can go out and play with the other kids in the park. And the mother's like, absolutely not. How would you suggest navigating that within the construct of wow, we have to co parent through the divorce, through the lockdown and so on?

Yeah, well, I mean, my phone and my inbox and my social media like DMs, I'm like getting so many inquiries about this kind of topic because it throws up so much uncertainty. And there are, you know, I mean, every. Everywhere's got different rules, everyone's got different opinions. But then when you've got to come back to, everyone's got different personalities, everyone has different ways of coping with anxiety. You know, there's some of us who can take it on board, process it, maybe freak out a bit, but pull ourselves back and get on with it, you know, and then there's others of us who literally cannot manage any kind of anxiety. All. So if you throw into that a difficult breakup relationship, then that becomes very, very difficult. And people react in ways that maybe they wouldn't under normal, calmer situations. So first of all, I think we've all got to be very honest about ourselves and how we react to situations and just acknowledge that maybe we might be a little bit more on edge naturally with what's going on, and that may affect our communication style. Now, if you can consciously uncouple, as the lovely Gwyneth brought to us, absolutely great. Because you should be able to sit down and. Or even virtually sit down and have a discussion about how you want it to work. And the important thing is to create that safe space that you can have a discussion where there's no blame, there's no, I know you're going to do this. So, you know, it's got to be, look, let's have a discussion about how we can work this because it's going to be difficult and acknowledging each other's communication style in a friendly but, you know, open way to say, look, I know when the pressure is going to ramp up, it might cause either of us to get a little bit frustrated. So how do we agree before we get there to treat each other? Now, if they've consciously uncoupled, you would hope, therefore they've got that level of respect and kindness towards each other that underpins everything. Because consciously uncoupling is really hard to do. That is really hard even for the most amicable of divorces. When you start splitting lifestyles and finances, that puts a lot of pressure on. So the fact that that third couple are consciously uncoupled, I'm sure they will have a roadmap to navigate this with kindness and respect being forefront. But having that discussion up front is key. Just to set those boundaries and agree. In other. The first example you gave me with the police are already involved. You know, that is very traumatic for the child. You've got to say straight off the bat, who's thinking about the child?

No, no, I will say that the Mother in that case, I don't know the father, but the mother in that case, what she did is she contacted the police proactively and said, I don't want to release my, I don't want to release my daughter in this situation. I'm concerned about the blah, blah, blah. And the police said that they would arrest her for kidnapping. So they sheltered the child from the entire experience. So that was the good thing.

Okay, all right, that's good clarity. I mean, first of all, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't give legal advice. But the advice that a lot of my family lawyer friends are giving, that I've seen in the media, that people are saying, is that you've got to stick to the court order that is there. So if the court order is there, then you are ordered to do that until the government or your authorities tell you otherwise. Now, at the moment, I know in the UK there is a bit of a mix up. I don't know heard about it, but one of our guys announced in government announced, Michael Gove announced that separated kids stayed wherever they were without that parent and weren't allowed to move. Literally 10 minutes later he announced, actually, no, sorry, there's a sub clause in that which means that they can move. Now, I don't know how long that is even going to stay because if you think about it, you know, they go in between households, that's spreading the virus. You know, who knows if that's going to be a long term thing or not. But as it stands, we have to stick to the guidelines that we're given and that's it. And you may be having to defend that in court if you break that. So you're going to have to look at why you're doing it. And at the moment you have to do as the court says, which can be super difficult. So how do you manage that? Emotionally is where I would come in. And it's about looking at, you've got to do what's right for the child, even though in some cases I know you're going to think it's right here, keep the child there. But if the government guidelines are there, you've got to do the right thing. The other parent, if you can have a discussion with them, obviously that would be better just to explain how you're feeling. Although I know there's a lot of what I call couples that are aggressively severing rather than consciously uncoupling. And that means that they are, you know, they are at each other. So it's harder to come to any compromise, it's harder to work things out and say, look, you, you know, let's sit down and talk about this, because maybe one is hell bent on upsetting the other, or vice versa. So I think the important thing is to look at how do you balance that communication and if you are finding this really hard, then reach out and speak to other people. You know, there are people around that can support you through this difficult time. I know there's a lot of people going through tough times right now over the kids with where they're going to be, and the kids are getting anxious as well. So I think, how do you take control back, which is the important thing, how do you take your control back over this situation? It's a tough one because it is a huge, huge level of anxiety, uncertainty, fear that's come into our world. So how do you turn that around and what can you control? Well, worrying about the things you can't control really isn't helping. We need to take that worry as much as we can, channel that into doing things that we can. So helping the kids to release some of that anxiety if they are worried. So, depending on the regulations, again, wherever you are at the moment, in the uk, we are allowed to go out once a day for the purpose of exercise. So you could maybe go out with your child, do some exercise, take their bike, go for a run, you know, do the sort of things that kids like doing. Your particular children, find out what most space and go and do it. Exercise will dial down that anxiety that they're having. So if you can try and keep their anxiety down as well as yours, I think it empowers us to make better decisions when everything is going crazy around us.

Yeah, I've been asking a lot of people about parenting in that category, because our children are, especially when they're in that stage of forming their rules and forming their beliefs about the way the world works. This is a tough time and, you know, it's really there and it's not what you say that's going to infect them or affect them so much. It's going to be what you do.

Yeah, absolutely. I know my son has been worried about it. And you've got to lead by example. Yes, everyone's worried, but, you know, the news is on the entire time, pumping out messages which will freak anybody out. So I think the important thing is to choose what channel you're going to get your news from, because you do need the updates, you do need to know what safety precautions you need to take. You do need to have all that information. You can't bury your head in the sand and not look at it. You have to look at it, but then look at that. Take that information and then come out of it. Don't get immersed in it, don't get stuck in it hour after hour after hour. Go in, think about it and come out. So I think it's really, really important to be able to take control in that way as well. So as well as taking control of your exercise, getting out the house, if you can do that, to get some pressure and exercise, also choose how long it takes to get you that information. Do not leave the news channel on all day. Do not watch all the news channels and everything they're saying and read them because it is overwhelming. And I think it's, you know, I think the journalists are doing a great job reporting, but it's up to us to decide what we feed our brain with. Because if you take in everything that's chaotic, that's upsetting, that's scary, it's going to make you feel more heightened with your anxiety and your fear. So choose what you're going to listen to. Choose a channel, get the information you need maybe once in the morning, once in the evening, and then get out. Don't stay there, just get out. Use that information wisely. Take the precautions. Don't stay stuck in it.

You know, it's funny, I've been telling people, these are my rules right now for social media. First of all, I'm a big believer that social media is an incredible thing. It's wonderful. People can be wrong about it all day long. But it's just like anything else. The question is, are you using it or is it using you? And so my rule for that generally is this, that with Instagram, I have unfollowed anybody who is scaremongering, who is spreading conspiracy theories if they're putting out canned social media content that their team produced a month ago. Done. I'm done following them. I'm following people who are providing inspiration, real, good information. And then on Twitter, I have a different policy. I follow credible, medical, scientific, real people who are looking into the real research of stuff. And so when I want to be informed about what's going on, I zoom over to Twitter. I've got all the information in my fingertips, and when I need a little boost and I'm looking for some inspiration right over there to Instagram and I curate my experience.

Exactly. I've been posting some funny videos on my Instagram. I think laughter and Keeping your spirits high is really important. It can't all be doom and gloom. Although that doesn't mean that you should be glib about the situation, because you've got to follow, you know, you've got to take it seriously. But taking it seriously doesn't mean you have to be stressed all the time and worried all the time.

You know, I observed something about myself the other day, and I shared this in an early interview, but I just. I found myself. I'm here alone, which is odd, because of course, what I've been complaining about lately, I admit, was that I never get alone time. I used to be a guy who would never book anything more than five, six weeks in my calendar, and now I'm a guy who has stuff booked out 18 months in my calendar, and I don't get. The only time I seem to be on my own is in some hotel room somewhere occasionally, just enough time to sleep or on a plane, and all of a sudden, here I am, alone in my own house completely. And you know what I found is I had Robbie Williams playing on the system. And I'm singing along and I'm dancing my way through the living room and I'm kind of having fun. And then somebody called me and so how do I answer the phone? Hi. Because it's not socially acceptable to be enjoying myself right now. And that's just. I'm done with that. Here's my deal. I am aware there's a concern. I'm aware that there's stress. I'm aware that there's a measure of danger. I'm aware that we're concerned about hospital surge and. And a variety of other things. And I'm aware that there's a lot of economic uncertainty. I'm aware of those things, but none of them are threatening my existence in this moment. And so I'm going to have as much fun as I can. And I'm not embarrassed about that. And I think this is important. This particularly comes down to when people are already estranged. They already have this thing where it's like if there's tension between them, one of them can be having a really nice day, but if the other one calls, they could be over here talking. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's all kinds of good stuff going on in my life. Oh, it's my ex husband and they drop. Or it's my ex wife. Hi. And they drop. But I think that that's happening even more now because it's like we're supposed to be sad or we're supposed to be Afraid. And the weird thing is if we start acting that way it informs everything. And I think to a degree a we got to be careful about how that impacts the kids. And I think also it probably has a direct impact on relationship where if we can come at the, the difficulties. Like there was another example where there was a husband and wife were talking about their kids going out to play at the local park where there's other kids and the kids are like hungry to play with other kids. Right. And so the one parents like no, under no circumstances we're not being part of that, you know, we're not going to be part of the spread, blah, blah, blah. And the other parents like oh come on, the virus, apparently it's just like a cold for young people. And the boom. They've got a dispute brewing heavily and I think if they come at it, they come at it with a negative perspective right off the bat. That's going to be really tough. They got to, as you described, they got to lift up somehow.

Yeah, I think that everyone is worried but it's okay not to worry all the time. And I think sometimes worrying about things we can't control just makes it spiral out of all control therefore. So we have to pull that back and say, right, I'm going to channel that worry into cheering my kids up or making myself feel better because if I'm better, we're better as parents, as role models, then we can then help our kids to do better and actually worry. Anxiety is not good for our immune system. So actually we're making ourselves more vulnerable. So if you want to be healthier, if you want to protect yourselves more, take the worry as much as you can because I know it's human nature and it's normal to worry about something like this, but channel it into, I don't know, do some crafting with your kids or going for a walk or doing something which is going to help other people, maybe making a phone call to somebody who would really appreciate that and give them a boost. I think I've noticed actually today I went to the supermarket and we were had to queue to get in and Obviously there's the 2 meters separation. It was the craziest, the first time I've been to the supermarket since that has been in force and it was sort of one in one out of the supermarket. And actually what I found was that people were being a lot kinder to each other because normally I would never have chatted to the guy behind me and I would never have smiled at the guy in Front of me, I'd have been too busy. Like, right, I've got five minutes in, I go grab the stuff. Hi, Yelp out. Whereas I had a chat, I sat and I. Most people were in silence, to be fair. And you obviously nervous, but.

But I started chatting and it's Britain.

And it's Britain. Yes, we don't talk. But, you know, this guy, he was really interesting man, and he giving me his take on things. And the guy in front had a mask on, which I think is quite frightening. I found it frightening, like, oh, I don't have a mask. Oh, no. But then it's like, okay, well, you know, you start talking about these things, actually, it bonds people. And I think what we're seeing now, I mean, in the UK, the Prime Minister put out a request for 250,000 volunteers to help right now because we need help for driving, deliveries to the nhs, phoning people who are lonely. And within one day They've had over 400,000 people sign up. And that actually gives me goosebumps and brings tears to my eyes because it just shows that everyone is pulling together. And I think that it, you know, that love and kindness is giving us almost like a detox. All the crap in our lives that we seem to think is important, it's almost like that is now leaving because we're really getting a very clear message of what is important and who is important to us.

You know, I think when we think about. Generally, I think when people think about splitting up or having a divorce or something, they immediately start thinking, how will I communicate with the other person? And I wonder if maybe one of the most important things they need to be thinking about is how do they work on the development of themselves? And man, are we in an incredible opportunity to work on the development of ourselves, like. And I have seen that same type of generosity and camaraderie. You know, I made the joke about Britain, but no kidding. I'm walking down the beach the other day. I'm lucky. I'm lucky. I have a very high quality quarantine situation going on here. I'm sorry for you, admit it. But I'm walking down the beach and there's this couple walking along. And it's. Normally, this beach would have, at this time of year, spring break, there'd be 200 kiteboarders and another 400 people on the beach supporting them. And, you know, now there's nobody. There's just this one couple walking toward me and I can tell they want to talk to me, but they're not Quite willing to say something. And so I just immediately stop and guess where they're from. They're from Britain, they're from England, and they just had their flight canceled. They're trying to get home and they're stranded here. They just booked an apartment for a month. But the next thing you know, we're having this really, like, normal, nice conversation. I'm telling them where the right grocery stores are and, you know, and I'm giving them the details they need to have. And in a normal world, I didn't walk past them like I would anybody else, as you do. And we have a group here. One of the guys who lives in the complex, he actually built the complex that I live in. He created this little. We call it, I think it's called the bunker chat, and it's the survival bunker chat, where we're all in this virtual bunker. But, you know, at first it started talking about, what food do you have? Is your Internet working? You know, that kind of stuff. But after about two or three days, it started turning external, and they started asking questions about the local Dominican community who are going to be massively impacted by. This is the highest tourist season time of all. Many of those people, their lives and their businesses depend on this. Three weeks in this half of the year, and it is over. There is nobody here. Nobody's making any money. And immediately this group, where they started off on their own survival, once they felt good about that, then they started talking about, okay, how can we get food delivery out to the communities and stuff. Just warming, heartwarming behavior.

Yeah. And I'm hoping that's going to be taking over from the fear because it is a great gratitude, and helping other people is a great antidote to fear and anxiety. It really helps you to dial down that negative emotion and start to feel good. And actually giving to other people gives you a much bigger reward than it ever does that person you're helping. So I think those sort of things will help take over that wave of panic and emotion, negative emotion, that's out there at the moment. And I think, you know, even exes that are finding things difficult. I think compassion has to come in somewhere at this stage because, you know, we all need to look after each other and make sure that, you know, we're doing what we can to keep safe. And that's the number one priority. And that it's been an interesting listening to the radio. I've been on the radio here a few times this week talking about these sort of things. But, you know, wealth and health you know, you can see the government juggling this, can't you? Like all governments are juggling, you know, how much do we put towards the destruction? You know, it's going to destroy economies. I mean, it is here for sure. And, you know, then in America, you know, what's the balance they're talking about? And it's interesting. It is very interesting, and a difficult dilemma. But I think ultimately it comes down to keeping you and the ones you love safe and helping protect other people by not going around and spreading, spreading the disease. So I think that has to come first.

You know, I think that the more people can tap into a sense of compassion and a sense of empathy, not only will that help them in their own selves and provide a great example for their children, but even in the case of exes, I think that if the. If they come from that highest. Let's go to what we agree about, right? Like, we agree that we all want to be healthy. We agree that we want the kids to be healthy. We agree that we want to get through this without difficulty. We agree that we want this to be easy. We agree all that. So then we can move down from there and say, okay, now where are the things that we don't necessarily agree on? And my general rule of thumb is that what we're constantly doing right now when we're dealing with this issue of hysteria, to, you know, to denial, and where are we on the spectrum? One parent says it's okay to go play with the kids, the other one doesn't. My view right now is that what we're really weighing up in that case is the cost or the consequence of being wrong versus the chances of being wrong. And, you know, if it was a month ago and you're having an argument about letting the kids go play at the park in London at 5pm the chances and the consequences are very, very low. There's not a big deal. But now you're talking about a whole different set of consequences. They could get sick, or they could become infectious and get you sick, or they could spread it to somebody else. And even if it was moderate, for them, that consequence becomes a big deal. And so I'd be inclined, at least my feeling is I'd be inclined that if parents are having a dispute about that, they would just naturally attract to the safer choice. What is the safer choice?

Yeah, and that's the government guidelines. So I think you've got to follow that. I think, you know, keeping safe is the number one priority, and it has to be for everybody, right? Now we have to make it, even if it's not. I mean, I was out today, but I saw people walking you along, you know, really close. I mean, I know that if you're in, you live together, then that's, you know, you can. But, you know, I just think the number of people I saw weren't really so distancing as much as they could do. And, you know, that's. We've really got to wake up. You know, I think seeing some of the scenes from Italy really shocked me actually, the other day. You know, it looks like a movie. And I think when it gets to that sort of stage where, you know, it actually terrifies you, some of that media is good to shock you into thinking, oh, my gosh, I think this is more serious than I. Than I thought. Safety comes first.

Let me take a little left turn here. You know, you've done. What happens to a lot of people is that there's some crushing lesson that happens to them, and they learn from that lesson, and then they feel called to support other people, to learn from your experience. You know, I went through that with health. I went through that with business. I kind of got to the place where, you know, where I really wanted to help people through the stuff that I'd been through. And you've done a really great job of that. I mean, you produced a book, I think, two, and you've got really great programs that you run. You also do a really good job at getting yourself out into the media, as you mentioned, you and on radio. I've seen you in print media quite a lot. Talk to me about something slightly different right now. And that is there are countless people around the world that have said these words, if only I had the time, I'd write a book. And, you know, and the truth is, it was never really about the time. They didn't do it. It was about a bunch of other stuff. And I guess my question for you is there are some people sitting at home right now, and they have an abundance of time and they definitely have life experience that is valuable to some niche market out there. Everybody has that. There's nobody who doesn't have that. Give me some, you know, give me. I'd love to hear your take on how you went from something being, you know, something that you were passionately involved in yourself to then wanting to transition and turn that into a passion that you could support other people with. Talk to me a bit about that.

Yeah, that's a really great question. And you're a great example of this. As well, you know, I followed you. I mean, we've known each other for a lot of years, so. Yeah, I mean, I've seen your journeys, too. And I think for me personally, it was being at the lowest point. It was about being at rock bottom. And some of the lessons that I learned when I first met you at Tony Robbins, on those, on that actual very first event was about what is your purpose in life and mine. I just, I light up when I can make a difference and I can help someone. For me, making a difference is important. So when I was at rock bottom, when I was an absolute wreck, you know, I was. I came out my marriage, I was overweight, calling it baby weight, but hey, it was a year on, so let's get real. It was probably chocolate sponge and custard, but it was probably more to do with that. But then, you know, looking at being devastated, like having your whole life in turmoil around you, being uncertain about. I'm sorry, I didn't know what was coming next. I didn't know financial where, I didn't know where I'd live. I was a single parent overnight, and I just never saw that happening to me. And it was so painful, physically painful as well. Somehow, you know that heartache is a physical pain that you feel. And I remember I had to go to Australia on business and I was sat on the beach and I'd taken a friend out with me because I wasn't good at being on my own. And that's. And we were satisfied. I said, you know what? This can't be just a lesson in my life to learn from. Like, I've got tools here that I've learned with all my coaching. I've got experience here that I know how to put this back together. You know, as a coach, I know that I can turn this around. I just don't quite know, you know, how. But I know this isn't just going to be for me. It would be a complete waste if it's me bearing the scars. And nobody else learns from that. So I just found a way to be able to turn my pain into something that helped other people not have to suffer in the way that I did. Because I spent hours, days, weeks, looking on the Internet for how to cope when, you know, your, your husband moves on, has a family with someone else within months, you know, when she's much more beautiful than you and 10 years younger. And, you know, I mean, those things I was typing in and it was giving you sort of puffery, but it wasn't actually helpful. Me, and I needed those answers. Now, I don't know whether, you know, those things really would have helped that much at the time, but those sort of things were not out there. So for me, I needed to take what I've been through and turn it into something that can help other people so they didn't have to go to rock bottom, or if they were, I'd give them a faster way to get out of it than I had. So I think that's why I. It was a burning passion for it to make a difference to other people and not be wasted on me.

And I think the truth is you're giving people time. What I mean by that is that, you know, without your support, if somebody has to navigate it completely on their own, you know, you're talking about something that might. Might have a negative impact on the rest of their lives, if not three, four, five years. And if you can give them the tools to get them to a place where they can get that stuff handled and move to. You know, look, when my ex wife and I split up, it was very contentious and difficult and what have you. But there came this point where I just developed this metaphor in my head that she's an ice cube, and my job is to melt her, and all I'm gonna do is do the best that I can. And, you know, it took years, but we got to a place where we were able to communicate effectively. She's twice brought me in to speak for students at her school. Like, we're good friends, but I gotta tell you, if we'd had somebody doing what you do now, maybe we could have gotten there in six months. And how much more quality of life would that have given us? So I think what you're doing is incredibly important.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to know that we go through tough times, and whether that is, you know, everyone has their own personal experience, whether it's bereavement, whether it's breakup, whether it's an illness, and, you know, they. You won't get through that without some scars. But those scars don't have to define you. And you can go on and show other people how to move forward, let it go, you know, so if you do have personal experience, coming back to that point about writing a book, you know, for me, it was the best way to get my information out to as many people as possible. Actually, the thought of writing a book is a lot more daunting and overwhelming than actually doing it, because once you do it, it flows, you know, you Just map out a little overview of where you want to start, where you want to get to, and then it just happens. You know, obviously, you need to be passionate. It needs to come from here. You can't. It's not going to be good if it doesn't come from the heart. It needs to be out passion, you.

Know, Daniel Priestley, I think.

Yeah.

So I actually interviewed Daniel the other day talking about reinvention and recession and stuff like that. And he made such a really nice distinction between. The difference between, you know, we were talking about all the phenomenal opportunities that are around us in the world right now, you know, as big corporates are scaling back and dropping opportunities here and there. And, you know, we're in this place where the young, the fast, the mobile, the quick, the responsive have real opportunities in front of them. And he said, the trouble for a lot of people is they start looking around for the opportunities as external things, and what they really should be doing is looking internally and looking at what their passions are. And I love the distinction from him was the, you know, like, he has a hobby of snowboarding, but not a passion. But if you can sit down and write 20,000 words on a thing, you have a passion. And so I think that anybody who suspects that they have a passion for solving problems for people, for eliminating pain for people, for helping them take shortcuts, for helping them get better results, anybody who suspects they have a passion should probably sit down and write down the seven chapters that they might want to talk about and just start writing. And I think if it's just not there, if the words aren't there, maybe it's a hobby, not a passion.

I don't know that you ever found this out, but for me, I always thought you. That I had to be like somebody else. So, for example, Tony Robbins, like, when I first met him, I was like, oh, my God, I want to be like Tony. But he's like 6 foot 7 and.

You know, and male.

And male. So it was going to be hard. And so that didn't really work out. But I took the information that you gave me that I love. And then Paul McKenna, who's an amazing guy, I was watching him on stage and I trained in NLP with him and Richard Bandler. And, you know, Paul McKenna, he's witty on stage and he's got the audience in the palm of his hand, and he's brilliant at what he does. I was like, I want to be like him. But again, he was male, and I just. Just, you know, and it was Just a male thing. I'm just not that academic as Paul. And, you know, I'm different. It only. It only clicks into place for me when I stopped trying to be somebody else and started to be me and saying, look, I know I'm terrible. I've got a terrible memory. Like, so, you know, that isn't great. But I am really good at taking problem, solving them and helping people move forward. So that makes me an outstanding coach. So I took what I'm good at and stopped trying to be the funny guy on stage. Six foot seven, making noises and moves, and I just became me, you know? And my son says, mommy, you're really embarrassing. And I'm like, okay, but I'm cool with who I am. Like, I might be funny. I might do funny dances around the house. When your friends are watching me on video, and I don't know about it, it doesn't. You know, it doesn't affect me because I'm comfortable with who I am. And actually, when I'm training my coaches, I train people to become breakup and divorce coaches. They say to me, but I'm not as confident as you, Sara, or I'd never want to do a video thing like you do, or, I don't know as many amazing people like you, Eric, you know, how do I do what you do? I'm like, you don't. You know, I've got me down just like Eric, you've got you down. Like, no one can be us. You've got to be the best you. And I think when people click into that, and I look at with my coaches now, one of my coaches, she survived cancer and she's. So she wants to be a breakup and divorce coach. She's also coaching cancer. So we're combining it. It's not about ditching her experience and just taking this new set of skills on. It's about putting everything together and being the best version of her. I've got a bereavement and breakup coach. I've got domestic abuse coaches who've been through abuse and come out the other side and are combining that and helping people. And when they step into their own stride, when anyone steps into their own, you know, their own shoes instead of trying to step into somebody else's, that's when it clicks. That's when you connect with a passion. That's when books become easy to write. That's when clients are knocking on your door. That's when the shift happens, I believe.

Yeah, I think that's. That's really, really solid. Again, it's that? You know, I don't know how to put it, but it's. I always tell people when they want to become, like, comfortable on stage or they want to be a good coach or what have you. I'm like, if you want to become a good speaker or a good coach, work on your speaking skills and work on your coaching skills. But if you want to come, phenomenal, memorable, you know, influential, impactful, effective work on you, you know, like, that's, that's really. And, you know, it's interesting for me, you know, I've never had this conversation with you, and it's interesting for me to hear these things, to hear the various little insecurities that can come up when you're being driven in one direction, another, or when you're going through a tumultuous divorce or any kind of stuff. Like, I hear some of that stuff and I think, wow, what I remember, and I don't know what year it is that we met. It couldn't have been. It must have been. I mean, 99, 2000. Like, it's a long time ago. And I remember, I'll tell you what was that?

I was 12.

That's right. So me too. What the hell? Why would you have to say something so obvious? In any event, I'll tell you what I remember because I think this is a valuable exercise. What I remembered was an incredibly comfortable, charged, fun, spontaneous, gregarious, generous ball of energy. That was my impression of you then. And what's crazy is I was right. It just maybe took you a little longer to see it and. And vice versa. I've had that experience in my life. Carl, our good friend Carl Pearsall. That same. Roughly that same year that you and I met, Carl comes up to me and he goes, you should be a speaker. And I'm like, what, are you insane? I'm terrified of speaking. That's a ridiculous idea. And he goes, no, Eric, I'm telling you, you could be sharing the stage with Tony Robbins. You can imagine where I'm thinking this guy is a nut bar or a prophet, you know, and you don't always know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing, isn't it? I think. I don't know. I think everything happens at the right speed and at the right time. But I think you do have to keep your eyes open and start saying yes more, even when it's uncomfortable. I know that when I. When I. When that exact seminar, Tony said, you can be, have, do whatever you want in life. That even to me, then all Those years ago was like, no, no, no, no, no. I've been told that I'm not clever enough, I'm not bright enough, I'm not, you know, I don't have those skill sets. And so by him taking all those blinkers off, it really opened up the whole new way of thinking, which actually just pushed me through any limits because I thought, no, I'm going to try this, because it sounds a lot better than the life I'm looking at from where I'm standing right now. And so things took off from that event. Actually just shifting your. Shifting your beliefs and focusing on what you want rather than what you don't think you're capable of made a massive difference for me.

Yeah, yeah, I think it does. It's beliefs are, in a sense, the filters that you see the word the world through. And so as long as you do. You know, I went through a similar experience with actually also with Tony Robbins in 92 when I was really 12. But, you know, I went through a similar experience where I had grown up with a bunch of beliefs about my physical appearance and my intelligence and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I was fundamentally happy and kind of, you know, doing my thing, but I was definitely held back. I was definitely holding myself back with those things. And again, that's why I come back to this idea of like, if you want to be the best speaker, you want to be the best coach, you want to be the best ex wife, you want to be the best ex husband, you want to be the best parent, you want to be the best step parent, you can go and read all the books about those individual things and the skills required to be good at those things, but to be outstanding in any of them, it really is an inside job. It really is. You know, I need to be me and I need to be comfortable with me. I really love the way you said that. I love that you're willing to dance at the back of the house even though your kids friends might be watching on video. Just dress properly, you know, it's a house.

Yeah, that's the thing. You need to do that. Yeah, but I mean, I always do. I always talk to people. I'm always out there. And I think as a role model for kids, you know, whoever we show up as, shows them what's possible. They may be shy, they may not be. You know, I mean, I was, I was super, super shy till I was 17, 18, I was, I was super shy. People find that hard to believe now, but it's true. I think you know, as life experience goes, if you get comfortable with yourself, everything I teach is stuff that I use myself. And the techniques aren't always, you know, they might be when you want to go back up to bed, pull the duvet over your head, knee crisp. That might be the moment where you need to say, no, I'm going to do my five star jumps, or I'm going to put a smile on my face, or I'm going to ask myself a better question. You know, see, it's never easy, but as, you know, as an individual, you have to do them for you first because it works.

Okay, but let's, let's get a little, I mean, this is fun and it's, it's, it's. But let's get a little nitty gritty here. You know, you, you have a delightful little child. How old now?

11.

11. 11. What a. Like, mine are 22 and 3. And so here's the deal. I mean, I don't want to go so far there, but one of the challenges is when you're somebody like you, you've got your books out, you've got a successful business, you're healthy, you're attractive, you look good, everything's. You got the energy. It would be very easy, if I'm really frank, it would be very easy for somebody to look at you right now and going, yeah, but I mean, look at you. It's easy. But I happen to know that it wasn't easy. I happen to know that there were many, many tears and deep pains felt and major fights and arguments. And what I, what I'd like to know is, like, how do you pick yourself up and dust yourself off when you're dealing with, let's say, hypothetically, not that you went through this, but say you're dealing with like, real narcissism or, you know, serious intransigence just for the purpose of being difficult, like somebody who really is just, you know, because that's out there sometimes. And I'm, how do you, how do you deal with that? Not for you is what I'm really worried about here, is that the minute there's a child involved, all of a sudden the, all the mama bear instincts come up. And I'm curious, how do you manage that? When that, when you were going through that, how did you, how did you manage that and keep yourself or bring yourself back to sanity?

Well, I think, you know, I'm the patron of a domestic abuse charity here in the uk and I have a lot of clients who are coming out of domestically abusive relationships. And you know, it is incredibly hard. And even if it's not domestically abusive, it could be, you know, just a really tough situation and you really can't see the light at the end of the tunnel and you really are devastated maybe that your ex was your life and they've left. I've got clients who, their partners gone off with their best friends, you know, things that are really life shattering and difficult. And it is hard. You know, there's no magic wand, unfortunately, to take away all the pain. So first of all, it's accepting that this is part of the journey. You know, you can't jump to that top of the mountain in one step. You've got to zigzag your way up and you've got to try different things. And there's lots of things that can work, but not all of them will work for you. So you've got to try and test out different things to see where you go. I think number one, it's okay to feel that pain and to cry because that's letting out a lot of that emotion. There's a lot of people who will try and stuff it down and cope. And that could be a healthy way of like going to the gym or working hard. It could be an unhealthy way of just jumping into the bed with whoever's around or drinking too much or taking drugs. It could be any of those things. But ultimately you're just dragging that baggage forward with these. You need to learn to let those emotions out. When it's high conflict, it's about doing the right thing. And the right thing is based on you and your morals and your beliefs and your life standards that you have always had. You know, just because someone else has lower standards does not mean that you should drop yours. To compete in this battle. You need to, you need to stick to doing the right thing. Now, doing the right thing is pretty much 99% of the time not the easy thing, the hardest thing you could ever imagine. But you've got to think long term, especially if there's children involved. You've got to think about, you know, being the role model and being true to you in your heart and not compromising that for anything. And I think if you can stay true to you, that is, is something that keeps your integrity in place. Because if you lose that, it's hard to get back up. So if you're still proud of yourself and you're doing the best you can, then that's enough and that's okay. And then getting the Support team is absolutely critical because you can't do it on your own as easy if you've got people around. And that doesn't need to be your best friend. I had a client the other day, she turned up and she had this. She popped her boot as she's like coming into the clinic so I could see into the back of her car. She had all these bin bags and she was saying, I've chopped up all his clothes, I'm gonna dump them around his new flat he's sharing with the girlfriend. And I was like, okay. She goes, well, I created my support team and I had my best friend in there and she's really angry. So she came around. Okay, we need to like really put some rules around how we choose the friends in the breakout support team that's gonna give you the advice. You can still have that friend, but in your support team it's got to be someone who's constructive and not emotionally involved. You know, it's going to give you decent advice that's going to serve you well.

Yeah, I got to say, like cutting up the clothes and delivering them, that's something you talk about doing.

They actually went through and it was like free bam. And God, the guy had loads of clothes and they were shredded. So yeah, so again, that wasn't doing the right thing and the backfired there and there were consequences for her of that.

Yeah, I imagine so. There's something here. I have a question, something I've wondered about since I saw what you're up to and what your business was about and what you're doing for people. This is like what percentage of your clients are men and women?

That's a great question. People ask me all the time, I'd say 65% are female, but I have a lot of male clients because coaching is not therapy, I think. And I think men are used to having a sports coach or a business coach or a personal trainer coach, you know, so having a coach is a little bit more acceptable. It's very results focused. It's a little bit of, tell me the backstory, but we don't dwell there. It's not where we stay. It's about moving them forward. So actually they find it helpful in a sort of constructive, more logical way actually, which appeals to a lot. A lot of my male clients, I mean they range from, you know, got high flying entrepreneurs and business people. I've got some celebrities, I've got, you know, farmers. I've got, you know, guys that were the stay at home dad where the Mum went out to work. So there's a whole different spectrum, I think, just being able to talk something. But that isn't therapy, because I think there's still a stigma around therapy. Whereas coaching, we kind of don't have that.

You know, I had the experience of talking to some friends of mine that live in Santa Barbara, and they got married, I don't know, a year and a half or so ago, and we were just having this conversation. Then one of them said, well, yeah, but our therapist. And I was like, your therapist? And they're like, yeah. And I said, are you guys having. You know, are you having any problems? No, because we have a therapist.

Yeah, exactly.

And it really. It really. That really hit home for me because particularly in the space that we're in, you know, when you. When you've spent as much time as you have studying personal development and psychology and all that kind of stuff, it's. There's a real temptation to think you can handle it for yourself. And I think that a lot of times, you know, preemptive therapy or preemptive coaching can actually be really, really, really helpful.

Yeah. If it's. If it's reactive, you're fixing a problem so that it's already happened. Whereas if you're constant. Yeah. If you've got someone to check in with, you know, I mean, one of the things I see, for example, my clinic I had the other day, this woman had been in a relationship where things had stacked for so long. Yeah. There were issues that they'd never discussed for her. For him, he hadn't even realized they were an issue. But. But for her, there'd be massive issues along the way where she hadn't addressed. So having a therapist along the way to discuss those sorts of things can be, I think, really, really helpful because. Just avoid getting to that crunch point where it's too late, because sometimes it is too late. I see. It's like just, that's one more thing that's broken the camel's back and I'm out. There's nothing you can do to get that back.

All right, I've got a loaded question for you.