Blossom CEO Thomas Schranz on How to Grow a SaaS Business & Getting Your First 100 Customers

Hi everyone, welcome to this week's edition of Growth Everywhere where we interview entrepreneurs and bring you business and personal growth tips. Today we have Thomas Schrantz from Blossom.io. Did I pronounce your last name right?

Yeah, it's perfectly fine.

Perfect. So Thomas, thanks for being on the show. How are you doing today?

Thanks, thanks a lot for having me.

Yeah, great to have you. So the way I usually like to start these off is hear a little more about your background and then we'll continue on.

Yeah, sure. So I used, like, back in the day, I used to be a software engineer. I started to study computer science at the Technical University in Vienna, never finished a degree, and then just basically started to build web applications, high-traffic Facebook applications for the European market, and then eventually founded a company called Blossom.io. And we We offer a project management tool for software developers.

Cool. Yeah, so do you, I mean, do you want to go into kind of what Blossom.io is about in more detail so our audience knows?

Yeah, sure. So basically it's a project management tool for software development companies. So for example, one of our customers is a company called Twitter. We also have European customers. Like Doodle, which is offering an appointment scheduling, a very simple appointment scheduling thing. And they basically manage their software development processes. They visualize who's working on what, how far along a feature is in the development process. So it's actually a very fairly simple agile project management tool.

Got it. Okay, so I think a question you're probably gonna hear all the time is, you know, and I've heard this on other interviews you've been on, it's such a saturated market. I mean, how do you, you know, how does Blossom differ from Trello, Basecamp, and Asana?

Yeah, it's a super exciting space because there's a lot of solutions, but at the same time, no one is really happy with the solutions they have. Because every— everyone is doing software development a tiny little bit different. So what we are mainly focusing on is super tight integrations with other tools that you have in the workflow. So one thing that we've just launched basically yesterday is an integration with Slack, which is a new really cool team chat application by Tiny Speck, one of the founders of Flicker. And another thing that we are very soon gonna be releasing is a GitHub integration where you as the engineer, you don't have to log into your project management tool. You can just work in feature branches on GitHub, and the project management tool like Blossom is actually understanding what you're working on and how the feature branches relate to higher-level goals that you have in your software development process. So for the engineers, it's basically they can stay in the codebase without the managers losing their overview, which is fairly interesting to pull off. But I think we did an interesting solution, and I'm looking forward to announcing that in a couple of weeks.

Cool. Yeah, I'll have to test it out. I like testing out project management tools all the time, and I can't really choose right now. So it's, it's, I think it's, I think like you said, it's a really interesting space and a lot of it is up for grabs right now. So I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but blossom.io is, you guys have a focus on Kanban, is that correct?

That's correct, that's correct. And it's always funny to pitch because sometimes I avoid the word Kanban and I basically talk about it's an agile project management tool, it helps you to deliver continuously, And then halfway through the pitch, a person is like, so you're doing Kanban? And I'm like, yes, we're doing Kanban. And other times I start with, hey, we have this Kanban board. And then people are like, what are you talking about? I have no idea what you're talking about. And that's actually interestingly in our content marketing strategy, we kind of shifted around from sometimes using Kanban, sometimes avoiding the word. And now building out satellite pages with different keywords, basically. So trying to describe the product that we have for different audiences.

Okay. Can you explain to our audience what Kanban is and how it's, you know, how it can be very helpful?

Sure. So it's, the basics are that you have a visual board, and some people have a physical board in their office. Where you see different stages of your feature pipeline. And these stages can be however your process looks like. But in our case, it's— we start with user experience and then we continue to the implementation phase. So it's basically coding. And then we have a phase for validation and hardening. And then the last phase for our feature lifecycle is marketing. And then you have cards that represent a feature and you basically see how long, how far along a feature is in your process and who's working on it. And you can mark a card as blocked. For example, if you're working on a payment processor integration and then you figure out halfway through implementation of the feature that the payment processor API is not behaving like documented, and then you can basically mark the card as blocked so everyone like All the other stakeholders know that we really need to focus on the payment processor and figuring out the workaround. So it's a very visual way to represent features, kind of like when you have a sales pipeline and you visualize how far a deal is along in the process, where if you're meeting for the first time or already almost closing a deal. the deal will be in a different stage. And a company called Pipedrive is basically doing something like that in the— using the Kanban concept for visualizing sales pipelines. So it's a, it's an abstract concept that you can apply for many things, also personal, um, getting things done.

Yeah, cool. So yeah, I mean, the Kanban, my understanding is for, for different stages you're only allowed to have, you know, 5 tasks at one time or something like that. Is that true or is that not true?

Yeah, that's a great point. So one thing that I think is one of the most powerful things of the concepts behind Kanban is that it visualizes what you're working on and that these cards that represent work actually take up physical space, whether it's on your screen or whether it's on your wall. And it's hard, like if you do creative work, it's really hard to manage what to focus on. So if you work on 5 different things at the same time, you will context switch a lot. And it's, I think the most powerful thing in software development is understanding that you can't do all these thousands of things that you think are a good idea. You can only focus on a handful of them. And with Kanban, you can optionally set work-in-process limits on a certain stage. So for example, if you take the user experience stage in the beginning where we kind of try to understand what is the job that the feature is doing for the customer, what are the interactions, like how should it be designed, we can set a limit on that and say we only work on 3 of those at the same time. And if we would add more of the, like another card, then the Kanban board, and in our case Blossom, will just highlight the header of the stage and say, wait a minute, you are over capacity. And we still allow you, so we're not super strict. You won't hit the wall, so you can still add the card. We'll just highlight that it might not be a good idea because you set that working process limit. And that either means you got more resources and you can change the work in process limit, or you might be aware that adding even more is a bad idea. And the funny thing is that this, like, focus problem and being really overworked by having thousands of things to do was one of the main reasons why we started out to build a project management tool that is built around the concept of resources and limited resources is the main thing you need to worry about. Because the previous tools were more like ticketing systems. We used Redmine, we used a lot of tools where people gave us as software engineers only like one task after the other task without considering how much we can actually get done.

Mm-hmm.

So it, like, these, all these tools, they that are more based on tickets and a lot of tickets, they basically create this environment where people think they can add a lot of things without having any penalty, without making prioritization decisions.

Okay.

And there's a funny story by— like, I don't know if it's a real story, but it's a funny anecdote at least. Of someone who went into HP and he wanted to improve their process based on lean thinking and trying to find bottlenecks. And he wanted to ask what their inventory capacity is for tickets. And HP basically said, we don't have a limit on tickets because we have a lot of hard drives. And they can store a lot of tickets. So the person basically came from a manufacturing background where they tried to understand, okay, how many parts can they fit into this storage facility. And that's the interesting thing for creative work. You can add a lot of tasks to your Evernote or Wunderlist or Trello board. You can add as many cards as you want. But the interesting thing is what actually gets worked on, what the actual things that you're focusing on.

So would Blossom automatically limit you and say, hey, we can't do this right now? Is that one of the unique things about it?

It's one of the main philosophical concepts behind it, yes.

Okay, got it, cool. So yeah, let's talk about, I mean, you know, let's talk about number of users today. I mean, how many users do you guys have right now, and what kind of companies do you have?

Yeah, so right now we have a bit over 300 paying organizations in the software development space. So I think last time I looked, it was like 340-something with credit cards on file that get charged every month. Some of them are super interesting companies like Twitter, Riot Games. We have like— it's a bunch of really cool names we did not expect to actually get. brands like this on board. But I guess like a combination of focusing on just a few pain points that people really have in their development process and doing good content marketing around that basically brought us to where we are right now. Because we don't actually— like if you look at the codebase, if you look at the product, it's not rocket science. It's not a really complicated product. It's just a very edited-down version of what other products do that are in the space right now.

Okay, got it. So yeah, I mean, 346 users, I think that's great, and then paying users. I mean, how long has Blossom been around for?

So it depends on when you start counting, but we've been around for roughly 3 years. Yeah, it definitely took some time to get where we are. It was not an overnight success, but it's an interesting journey. I can't wait to see what's happening in the next few months.

Got it. Okay, cool. So I know in another interview you talk about prioritization. So at Blossom, how do you guys prioritize right now?

So one thing that we just recently started to adopt this concept that is used by Google and Zynga and a lot of Silicon Valley companies called OKRs, Objectives and Key Results. And it's similar to the Kanban concept of limiting what you're actually doing, limiting work in process. Objectives and Key Results, basically there is this idea that for For every quarter, you define not more than 5 objectives. And an objective is something like a goal, but it does not necessarily have to be like an ending. Like, it's not a destination that you arrive at. It's more like a direction you go. The objective is rich in purpose and in, like, you describe why you want to achieve it. And every objective has key results. And the key results are like the measurable part of the objective. So it can be like milestones. So for example, if the objective is we really want to create a super slick onboarding process, then key results for that objective can be a specific improvement in the retention metrics. And The cool thing about these objectives and key results is that it helped us getting good at strategy and tactical decisions that we were not super good at. So before the Lean Startup concept, we would define goals very much around objectives. So it would always be like a purposeful goal, but we would always leave out how to measure and account for the certain goal. And then once we learned more about the Lean Startup concepts, we defined our goals very much in the accountability area, like with the key results. So we had a lot of goals that were very specific around KPIs, but we left out the purpose and the objectives. So it's really hard to reach goals when you leave out either the objective or the key result part. And when I stumbled upon the OKR concepts, I was like, like had a little epiphany and I was like, okay, now everything makes sense. You need both. Like you need to understand why you're doing the things and you need to define how to be like, how to have proxies of whether you're on the right track or not. And like I said in the beginning, to close the arc, you limit these objectives. So you only have a handful of them. Google, the whole company, has 5 objectives per quarter for the whole company. And limiting these objectives helps you to get better at each of these objectives because you're less distracted with other things. So it just keeps you honest and makes you aware if You're, for example, if you're in the software development process and you're working on features and you look at your Kanban board, it should be easy to understand that, or like how these feature cards you're working on relate to the higher-level objectives you have. So in some sense, objectives can actually replace concepts like a backlog where the objectives are like a higher-level idea of what you should work on. More like focused topics. And what you're actually doing in the now should relate to these objectives. So that's one of the things that I think changed a lot in how we internally work. And it helps us to feel less burdened by concepts like a backlog that has thousands of things that we could do. And usually if you work with really creative and super smart people, whether they're engineers, designers, marketers, no one has ever a problem with coming up with great ideas. So if you just put a problem space on the table, like fireworks go off and people have really great ideas on how to improve a product into a certain, like around a certain problem. So I think the main art is to really edit down what you actually want to focus on. So it's not like the challenge is not coming up with 1,000 ideas, The challenge is deciding which, what's the handful of objectives you're actually going to pursue, and then focusing everyone on these 3, 4, or 5 objectives basically.

Got it. Yeah, it's really interesting because we started doing the OKR thing actually this year as well, and it's proven to get a lot more focus and alignment. We throw all our OKRs into our internal wiki. Yeah, I think it's great and I think more people are gonna be adopting it just because honestly, less is more. I mean, this whole concept of everyone can have a laundry list of to-do, shit to-dos, right? But honestly, there's only a few big things that you can really do to move the needle. So I think it's great and I think perhaps using Blossom would help keep even more focus on these OKRs. So we'll share with the audience kind of the links to these This OKR stuff, but I know Google has a video. It's like a 1 hour 20 minute video on OKRs.

Yes, brilliant, brilliant video.

I recommend watching it at 1.5 or 2x speed, speed up. But yeah, that's a good place to start. Cool. So I know how you prioritize at Blossom. You know, is there— and I know you worked at kind of like an agency before type of model before too. So is that the same type of prioritization or is there anything that's different about prioritizing at an agency? Because I run an agency too.

Yeah, I would say like running agencies is super interesting, and some of our customers are running agencies. So when I do customer interviews, I usually feel bad because I think we don't cover the agency use cases as well as we do product-focused companies that basically work on a long-term product.

Mm-hmm.

So like, I think looking back at what our agency scenarios were, where is turnaround time was way faster. So having these hard deadlines and working with external clients really helps you to make these super hard trade-offs. It pushes you out of your comfort zone where you know, like, this is not super clean code, but it gets the stuff done and you really need it and you need to have a workaround for that problem so you can move on. To fix the next problem. And I think that was like, I feel when I talk to founders and entrepreneurs that have technical backgrounds, those that have worked in an agency briefly before founding their company, it helped them to lay back a bit. Like if you're really, like if you're a technical founder, you're obsessed with getting things right, you want a clean code base, you really like order and having like, you want to refactor more often than it might be a good idea from a business point of view. And having like an agency background where you're pushed like in these extreme cases where actually no one after submitting the project and finishing the project, like a one-off marketing project, that no one needs to maintain afterwards, you can make like these extreme decisions that you sometimes need in like in a startup where you want to just get an experiment out of the door in 1 or 2 days and see how it works. And only if it works, you double down and clean it up. So I think the mindset of agencies really helped to like not get stuck with over-optimizing clean code and having an awesome test suite and clean design and all of these things right in, like, at the start. And I think we really care about having a slick product and a good user experience and good design, but having this agency mindset, we're not afraid to push something out for people who opt in And they know they get early access, but it might be really ugly. And we still have something like a standard of performance. So we're very aware of which parts in our application, or in the product basically, are not on that standard that we hold up for ourselves. So I think there is a way to be quick and dirty and do hacks and workarounds. like an agency sometimes does, without creating a product that isn't up to your standards. And it's not easy, I don't say it's easy, but I think there's a way to pull it off.

Got it, okay, no, that's really helpful. And hopefully you guys are able to work out the agency model later down the line so I can use it too. So what's one big struggle you faced While growing Blossom?

So one thing that was really hard and still a struggle is since the market is so crowded, like we're basically in the software, so it's a developer tool because it helps software development companies, but at the same time it's also in the productivity space, and the productivity space is super broad. So depending on who you are as a buying persona, you can be like a VP of engineering and you would compare us to tools like Jira or Bugzilla or Pivotal Tracker or Rally. There's AgileSan. There's thousands of agile project management tools. And if you're more like a VP of product, you would compare us to more lightweight products like probably Trello, Basecamp. If you come more from the management, like program management point of view, you might actually more like think of us like a different view of who's doing what and a different reporting structure. that is something similar to Asana, but then again, it's not like Asana. So depending on who you are and how you perceive the market and how you perceive us, it's really hard to create good content marketing around that. So that is one thing we've been struggling with, and I think something that we slowly get better at. And one person that really helped was Kenneth Norton from Google Ventures. So he previously, before Google, he worked on a wiki software called, I think it was called Jotspot or the company was called Jotspot. It was like a really, really cool wiki and I remember way back I also used it. So it was a really, really cool wiki that also had tables and a concept of a calendar and stuff like that. And it got acquired by Google. And they had a similar problem because different people use wikis for different things. So they started to change their marketing material away from addressing personas to addressing use cases. And that's very similar to the jobs to be done concept where you actually go away from what the persona is that is buying the product to what is actually the job that people are hiring the product for. And once you start to, or at least once we started to describe functionality in Blossom according to specific use cases, it was easier to get the word across. Like when we described the GitHub integration on how marking a feature as blocked in a GitHub commit message, what that means for the board, that it creates a red stamp on the board and that it posts the notification to HipChat, Flowdock, or Slack, whatever you're using to notify the right people, even if they're not in the same time zone. Like creating these narratives where people really can relate to the whole story suddenly the software engineers know the, like, they know the scenario and they know what the tool does for them. And the stakeholders know the scenario and they know what it means for them without us having to worry about whom we are actually addressing right now.

Got it.

So that's the main struggle, I guess, positioning and wording and understanding how to tell a story and not, like, it's this features versus benefits thing. You want to sell benefits and not features. And for me, like, I read that concept like probably like 3 or 4 years ago, and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I absolutely agree. But it takes months or even years to really internalize it.

Got it. So yeah, I definitely think, you know, as part of your content marketing strategy, we'd love to see a blog post on, you know, The struggle that you're facing right now, 'cause I think it's something a lot of people deal with. I think a lot of people don't realize it. So I think that's great. In terms of user acquisition, I know you have 346 customers right now. So how did you get the first 100?

So the first people actually came through Quora, which is a question and answer platform. And that was more or less by accident. So we are— so we basically browsed Quora because we did some research on what people are like. We used it kind of like as a customer development tool or customer interview tool to understand what the pain points are when you manage software projects. And that are like, what are the scenarios where people actually are looking for solutions. For example, you are a co-located team and then a new member joins, but the new member is remote. Like, that changes how things are managed. Or like people who struggle with a huge backlog. We wanted— like, Quora is really cool for product and market research because people actually ask questions about problems. And then the interesting thing is If it's a really hot topic, you will find a lot of subscribers to that question. And you will find, like, you will also get an understanding, even if you're not like an expert in a certain topic, you will find a lot of expert answers. And you will get a very— it's basically a very brief, a very like compact briefing for you as If you're not an expert, you see expert answers that usually provide a lot of context. You see that there's not an easy right answer and people see things differently. So you get a nuanced understanding of the problem. So it's like a super quick way to understand whether before you build a feature, what the actual problems are and how people see the different trade-offs in the problems. And then I basically got sucked in because I have my own opinions about how to manage software projects and how to do continuous delivery and how to set roadmaps and how to do OKRs and stuff like that. So I started to just answer questions because I was like, okay, this answer is great and this answer is great, but I see differently. Or I was like, okay, this answer is like— there are some questions They had only one answer and I thought the answer, having only one answer and the answer being the polar opposite of what I think is like a really bad thing to have on a public Q&A platform because people will actually take the advice and act on it. So I was like, I need to at least formulate like a counterpoint. And then people started to upvote the answers and they started to look at our product. So it was basically by accident, and by now Quora is one of the main revenue sources. It's not a high traffic source, but it's sending highly qualified leads because people, like, as far as I understand it, if you sell B2B software, it's an oversimplification, but at least in our case, It's B2B, it's related to project management. So people don't just switch project management tools. They don't wake up Monday morning and they're like, hell, let's switch project management tool. There's never a good time to switch project management tools because if your project is doing well, you don't have a reason to switch. And if your project is not doing well, you have other things to worry about. So you're also not switching. So you need to reach, or like in our case, we need to reach the people at the right point in time where they have motivation to switch. And that's usually around problems that the people themselves have identified. So to a certain degree, it works to have content to make people aware about problems they have where they are not aware about the problems yet. But it's an uphill battle, whereas if people already understand they have a problem, they formulate the problem, they search for a solution to the problem, that's a good point in time to overcome the friction and the barrier that people— so people have a motivation, motivation is higher than the barrier to switch, and that's exactly the point in time where we want them. And that's how I under— like how I explain to myself why the Quora, like if you look at our overall traffic, Quora is a tiny fraction of the traffic, but that's where the revenue comes from. And a similar thing related to Quora is tweets where people do a personal recommendation. They're like, this is a good, like people ask for project management tools and a friend of them publicly recommends to check us out, or Medium blog posts that are also— so it's not necessarily Medium as the platform, but the content we put on Medium is very much similar to the Quora Q&A style. So the content is around specific project management struggles and how to solve them conceptually. So, Quora, Medium, and Twitter are the channels where we, for some reason, by accident or not, figured out when to reach people at the point in time where they're motivated to switch.

Got it, cool. So, it does definitely sound like, you know, you're doing the things that has been reiterated on this, you know, on this show many times. You're doing the things that Initially don't scale, but then eventually you're gonna move to the scale phase. But I do agree with you, Quora, I think to give the audience a little context on Quora too, I was once able to answer the question once, someone reached out once, and that client ended up being a $10,000 a month client.

Awesome.

So decent-sized client, and Quora does help, you know, very qualified, very smart people that are reaching or using it right now. So, you know, great tip on that. Question for you on I mean, this is usually, and you look very young, so I have to change the age on this. So how old are you right now?

28.

28, okay, cool. So 28 years old, what would you give, what kind of advice would you, what's one piece of advice actually that you'd give your 21-year-old self?

I would say start with mailing lists. Look into mailing lists. So in the customer acquisition thing, if you have a, a product, especially in the SaaS space, and you do content marketing, we totally underestimated how well mailing lists or nurturing campaigns work. So we had a lot of, and we're still building that up right now, but we basically had a lot of thought leadership content on Medium and Quora. And we did, so it's like you have thought leadership and branding in one area. And then we had support once you've already signed up and you hit some problems. And between that, like, we did good jobs on thought leadership and support, but the thing in between that should actually basically bridge from, I heard about the brand, brand looks cool, they know what they're doing, to I need support. There's a lot of steps in between that, and nurturing campaigns help a lot with bridging that gap and qualifying the leads and increasing the motivation. And sometimes you don't even have to increase the motivation. You just have to remind people until they're ready to switch. So like when we get back to the concept of these—

Yeah.

project management tools where you use a project management tool, there is never a good time to switch, but sometimes there is. And it's hard for us to predict when that moment is, but if you look over many weeks or many months and you stay on top of their minds, then at one point in time there is a good event where they're willing to switch, and then your nurturing email is in the inbox, or it just was in the inbox briefly before. And then people convert. So there's like in B2B apps, I think a lot of times people have the motivation to check out a new tool, check out a new solution. Can be anything, can be a project management tool, can be a technical solution, can be like an email, can be an email sending tool, can be anything, can be an analytics tool. But it's never on top of your mind, or it's never on top of the backlog, or it's never on top of— It's never as urgent as other things, but sometimes for some circumstances that are hard to predict, it suddenly becomes the topic of the day. And if you are on top of their minds at that point in time, then you beat everyone else, even if it's a category leader. If you're on top of their minds at that point in time, then you are basically number one. And that's the power of these nurturing campaigns. And we did not focus on them as much as we should. Yeah, okay.

And in your nurturing campaign, and walk us through this a little bit, so, you know, obviously you have your blog posts, right? So I don't— what exactly are you sharing in your sequence? Like, is it just blog posts? Are you, you know, how are you spacing this out?

Yeah, so it's these— it's basically a selection of the Medium blog posts that performed So that's one cool thing about Medium, also Quora, that you can create content. And sometimes you think a certain content will work really well, but then you get some kind of data from Quora and Medium. So with Quora, it's upvotes and comments, and with Medium, it's number of views and feedback. View-to-read ratio, and you see also annotations and how many people share the content and what they're talking about it. So I think when you build out nurturing campaign, just going back to your pool of content, so you don't actually have to create new content, you can take your pool of content that performed fairly well and/or better than other content. And then you, like in our case, maybe we got lucky, but we had, we found 5 posts that are fairly well, like you can actually lead from one post to the other. But I think often you don't, they don't have to naturally lead from one post to another. You can just add a paragraph in the end and add a paragraph in the beginning of the next post. So there's some, so the flow is somewhat connected and that usually works. So take your, like reuse content. There's, I also just read a really cool email back by Patrick McKenzie, petu11. And he also wrote about how his blog post on negotiating salaries as an engineer, it's one of the blog posts that performed way, way, way better than any other blog post that he ever written. So it's cool to just be able to go back to content you've created and see what kind of content performs better because it's hard to predict from your own point of view what works, what doesn't.

Got it. Totally agree with that. Go with the numbers. You know, obviously there's some gut in there, but, you know, definitely use the numbers to kind of optimize. So what's one productivity hack you can share with the audience?

It's definitely saying no to a lot of things. And I think it's like the abstract— there's a really cool talk by Jack Dorsey on viewing yourself, whether you're a CEO or a product manager or an engineer, viewing yourself as an editor. Like, if you're in the creative space, if you do innovation, if you are focusing on creating good user experiences, you are an editor and that's your main job. And it took me some time to grow into that thinking and it's a very abstract concept to be an editor, but once you accept that and embrace that editing is one of the key value levers for you where you can actually improve value, you will get better at editing and at what editing what you do yourself. But especially in a team context, you help other people to also become editors. Like you, it's on top of your mind if you identify like yourself as an editor, So you always ask whether the things you're doing right now relate, how they relate to other things that are your higher level objectives. And that's super simple, but not easy. So it's super hard, but it's a simple concept and it's powerful because it's so simple. And it's fairly easy to explain to people. So it's also like basically, If you have a team and one person starts to really perceive themselves as an editor, after a few weeks you will have a team of editors that see the power of doing less, but doing fewer things way, way, way better than they did before.

I like it. Cool. And I think there's this audiobook I'm listening to right now called The Power— I think it might be called The Power of One, and it's basically what you're talking about exactly.

I need to check that out.

Yeah, no, it's just basically focusing, which is exactly what you're doing already. So, final question from my end is, what's one must-read book you recommend to the audience?

Just recently I read, I think it's called The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz, and that's a really good read. So, right now that's on top of my mind, and I'd recommend that. Yeah, it's easy to read, super entertaining, super, super great book.

To any founder too, or anyone that wants to start a business. I mean, that's the shit that you have to go through. And it's a combination of his blog posts, and like he said, it's very, very simple to get through, and it's a very quick read. So great book, I definitely recommend. And I think you're the second one to recommend it on this show, or maybe the third one actually.

It's a great read. All the things that usually no one would talk about, in the book, so that's why it makes it super exciting.

Great. So yeah, Thomas, thanks so much for joining us. You know, a lot of great insight here on productivity, and I think everyone should check out Blossom. Perhaps we can work out some kind of— work out a deal for the audience or something like that, but we can talk about that later. But Thomas, thanks for joining us. We hope to have you again soon.

Thanks a lot for having me. Thanks.