From Cookies to Content: Lessons in Marketing

So Neil, let me tell you about these new cookies I got over here. So guys, in the camera you can see these are these Biscoff cookies. They're nice and fancy. And those of you listening, Neil, do you want to describe what you're seeing right now?

I don't know what the base is, but it looks like some sort of cookie. I don't know if it's chocolate chip or oatmeal or whatever it is, or just a plain cookie. Uh, a Biscoff standing up, and I don't know what the white thing is.

Yeah. The white thing kind of looks like cheese, but it's not. It's white chocolate. And then she made the cookie. My friend Stephanie made the cookie from scratch, and then there's like some salt on it as well.

But what kind of cookie is it?

Is it chocolate chip? It's a Biscoff cookie.

Oh, the base is made out of Biscoff as well?

Oh, no, no, no. I don't know what the cookie is. It looks like a regular cookie. I don't see any chocolate chip or anything. Maybe some oatmeal or whatever. But this is really nicely done. And by the way, she started this company 3 weeks ago and it's called Warm House Cookies. So @warmhousecookies on Instagram. I think when you, when you design something like this from a marketing standpoint, it stands out because I bought this for Neil's kids, right?

Thank you, Eric.

Yeah. And I'm like, dude, the fancy ones, let's give it to the kids because it's like, whoa, like I've never seen a cookie where there's a Biscoff standing up from it and then there's like a white chocolate. So sometimes you can say the design itself sells the product, right? Especially when it's food.

Yeah. But here's what's really interesting. And we're bringing up this cookie company for a reason, not just to promote them or anything like that.

Sure.

You know, any Great buzz is great buzz, but there's actually a different reason why we're bringing them up on this episode. I asked Eric when he first brought them to me, I'm like, hey Eric, what's their website? He's like, they don't have a website. Now I was like, how do I buy cookies from there? He's like, you just have to go to Instagram and go to Warm House Cookies. And do they need a website? Yes. But the bigger lesson here is for especially a lot of marketers, You can just get started and it doesn't have to be perfect. Everyone just overhypes everything and thinks it has to be perfect. And they're like, I need the perfect launch. I got to figure out PR strategy, hire a social media company. I need to go and figure out how to get my website and Facebook and then do TikTok Reels and get influencers. And what does she do?

She just started.

She just started. And I asked Eric, oh, where's her location? And what did you say? Home.

Exactly. Yeah.

Because when I look at the box, it looks very professional.

Professional, super fresh. And then she has a sticker with a logo on it and the Instagram. You look at the videos, the, the videos are well done too.

I didn't see any videos on Instagram.

On the Warm House, @WarmHouseCookies?

There's one video. Yeah.

Sorry. Okay. Even the one video itself is fine. Right. And then I'm just like, it, the, the product itself is good. And, but the fact that she started this 3 weeks ago and then she has boxes and then she has logos and things like that, it's already pretty crazy.

She only has 335 followers. She's following 26 people. 7 posts.

This is it.

She doesn't have a ton of business. So how is she generating business? Because you're not the only customer, but like, what's her model?

I actually asked her yesterday. I was like, how many customers do you have so far? So keep in mind, it's 3 weeks in. So how many customers do you think she has so far? It's not a crazy number.

Like 10, 20?

Yeah, exactly. 10, right? 10 customers is what she has right now. And so I'm like, whoa, this—

Wait, were you one of them? Yeah. I'm one of them.

But it's like, you just need a couple customers to get validation to show that you should keep going. Like, you're not going to build a giant business in a day. And I don't even know if she's trying to build it into a big business, because once you get into the cookie business, that's a legit thing, right?

Yeah.

And so, by the way, I have a friend, YPO, his mom makes these amazing cookies in batches. I got those for your kids too, right? And they actually had a major cookie investor. There's one of those, right? That really liked the cookies and was like, hey, like, I'll invest, but I need to ask you, do you enjoy what you do right now? And are you ready to make this into a business? Those are 2 separate things. If you want to do it for fun, do it for fun. But if you want to make it into a business, it's going to be a lot of pain and suffering.

Yes. And when you look at her model for Warm House Cookies, you know, people ask like, how are you differentiating? What's your unique value proposition? And honestly, there's some cool designs and stuff like that, but you don't have to overthink it all. If you're going after a big market like cookies or food, it's, you know, as I was once told when I was talking to a guy in private equity who's a billionaire, he ended up telling me, We were talking about the agency space at the time. He's like, look, it's a big punch bowl. It's big enough where everyone can get drunk. And if you're in cookies, whether you're Crumbl or Warm House Cookies or someone else—

Or Levain's coming out nearby.

Do you see that?

Which one? Oh, you don't know Levain? Okay, Levain's popular in New York. It's coming right by, you know, Honor Bar.

No, what's Levain?

It's a new cookie. We're going to see it today. Watch, when we walk there for lunch, it's L-E-V-A-I-N. It's a very popular cookie thing in New York.

Okay, sometimes you just got to go out there and just do it. And it's okay if you're not differentiated. In marketing, everyone's like, I need to have a unique value proposition. Sometimes just go and get launched and then figure out the rest later on.

When have you ever done a business plan?

I did a business plan when I was starting off.

Yeah, very beginning. You're like 14, 15 years old.

No, a little bit older than that. I would say early 20s.

Okay.

I was looking to raise money at that point. And there was a company called Fruitcast, I believe it was, that we had. It was one of the first podcast advertising companies.

What?

And Fruitcast? Yeah, I did it with a guy named James. Was it James something? I forgot his last name. It was his idea. He then, I put in the majority of the money. We even had good meetings with Yahoo about M&A and stuff.

This is when, this past ACS time?

Very early during ACS.

Okay. So you guys were cash flowing well?

We were cash flowing well. And the whole model was when podcasts first came out, like literally when they first came out, the way people did advertising is, hey, let me go call you, Eric, for marketing school or leveling up and see what the rates are and do some insertions. And we had this model where we're like, we're going to create interface kind of like Google, which we did. And podcast advertisers can go in there, they can slice whatever moments, and they can just buy ads on an impression basis. And it was just more automated and it was going to create, in essence, a marketplace.

Mm-hmm.

Where we struggled with was the technology end. Not that we couldn't create a marketplace, it was a lot of people would just record their podcast episode and it was meant where you can put ads just at the beginning, it was hard for the podcast advertiser to follow, get them to follow instructions on where to put breaks so we can insert ads in the middle.

Yeah.

And then the other big problem with the business was we were looking at CPMs in the multiple like dollars of like $15, $20 a CPM, which was really high for certain categories.

People weren't ready for it yet.

And they also weren't ready for it, but that's really high when you're talking about like, Call it 18, 19 years ago or something like that. That's extremely high CPMs. Yeah.

So, okay, you did a business plan, but since then, have you really done business plans?

I think a business plan is a terrible way to raise money, and that was the only reason we created a business plan.

You thought you needed one.

That's what we were told.

Yeah.

And then the person sold us on 3 business plans, not just 1, 3.

Oh, a business plan seller sold you on a business plan. Of course he's incentivized, just like a real estate agent.

And guess how much we raised from all the business cards?

Zero.

Zero, yeah.

Exactly. So I think the point we're trying to get, going back to the cookies thing again, is like you just need to start sometimes. Like the software or a lot of the stuff that you've built, you just, me knowing you, you've always just launched things, right? In the beginning.

Yeah.

And it's, you're better off doing that and then seeing if you get some customers and then go from there. The fact that she has 10 customers in the first 3 weeks shows that she's already like, she's doing something about it. She's not just waiting around for the customers to appear. You can't just say, Oh, I have a great product and then hope the customers come. And then, by the way, the flavors are unique. The one Noah and I just ate, probably like 300, 400 calories, but like passion fruit and like jelly on it, right? The ones your kids are getting, white chocolate and Biscoff. Biscoff? Biscoff, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll cut it up into chunks before I give it to them.

Oh, because they can't have too much or else they're going to go crazy.

300 calories for someone who weighs like 30-something pounds. Oh yeah, you should chop it up.

But dude, when we see the Levain later, you'll see like they were huge in New York and they're expanding Right by you.

So that's cool. I'm going to check it out.

By the way, you just mentioned podcast ads, and then I want to talk about the deck that you had earlier. So what I think is interesting is right now, like I'm looking at all the podcast ads that we're running that I'm recording. So, so it's, I want to talk about podcast ads versus influencer marketing, because you've seen this with influencer marketing. Sometimes you'll get like 6-figure-plus deals. And then right now I'm getting like a healthy, like 5-figure deals. Like they'll come out to us and reach out, whether it's like a, like, you know, a big advertising company or something like that, right? Now, what's interesting to me is last week I mentioned I was at some AI event and one gal was like, oh yeah, you know, we work with so-and-so, you know, big multi-trillion-dollar company and we just throw $50,000 to $100,000 at people just like that. I was like, do you track attribution? Nothing, right? Whereas when we have like a Dell reach out, like Dell, the computer, or now it's like a server company, right?

I thought you said Adele.

Not Adele, yeah. When I said that, I was like, it kind of sounds like Adele. But Dell, still very big company. They cash flow well, right? Michael Dell. They'll reach out and they're like, I'm like, okay, so how much are we going to make from this? $3,000. I'm like, like, so, so like, are we just going to keep making like $3,000 each time? I'm like, what is this?

Right?

And this is no knock on, on, you know, who we work with as a, on the podcast side. It's not even their fault, but I'm just like, we're better off doing any type of influencer deal than doing like, one, the influencer deal, they don't, they're not tracking attribution or anything and they're paying way more.

Yeah.

And then on the other side, I'm just like, $3,000 for a month. You know what I mean? So like podcast ads—

It's a lot of work for $3,000. Yeah.

And then like I have to record it too. And we've resorted to using ElevenLabs now for my voice. And I'm sure you do the same thing, but I'm just like podcast ads versus influencer marketing seems like podcast ads, like pricing seems to be going downwards right now. Whereas influencer is just going upwards.

I agree with you. I don't see unless you're like a Joe Rogan or something like that, where you just have a really massive audience. Podcast advertising is a very difficult business to make an arm and a leg for. And one of the hardest reasons is attribution. Yes, you can send people to landing pages. Yes, it's great for branding, but it's becoming a more saturated place. I'm not talking about podcasts. I'm talking about the ads portion where podcasts are recording 3, 4, 5, 6 advertisements just in one episode.

Mm-hmm.

And they're not really tying it into episode. And that's a great example of us when someone's advertising Eric's using ElevenLabs or he's recording it and they're just slicing it in. While when sometimes when Joe Rogan has a sponsor or some of the other big podcasters I've seen, they intertwine the ad within the episode and they make it more relevant and it just works better. But that costs a lot more money and it takes a lot more effort.

Yeah. Even Joe Rogan doesn't necessarily weave it into his episodes that much. I've been listening to a lot of podcasts recently. Lex Fridman, he'll load the first 8 minutes all like just reads, right? He's not really weaving it in. Only a, you know who weaves it in pretty well? MrBeast.

MrBeast does. Yeah. But with Lex Fridman, I just skip the beginning.

Yeah, I just skip the first 10 minutes and I just go into it. So yeah, but anyway, that's what we think about podcast ads versus influencer marketing. I think, you know, anytime someone reaches out to either of us for influencer, we should just try to push them into the podcast and include that in it. That's what I think we should do.

Yeah, but when you look at Joe Rogan, when I look at a version of a successful ad is what he did with, what was it called? Onnit?

Onnit.

Yeah.

Well, he owned a piece.

He owned a piece.

Yeah.

But that was really well integrated and that did well for him and it did well for Onnit and that allowed them to exit. I forgot who they sold to, but—

Dude, you know what you should weave into it? Because your YouTube gets views, right? I'm like, why don't you just weave these little mid-rolls into it? Because when I weave the mid-rolls into like Karat or ClickFlow or Single Grain, we actually get leads from it.

What do you do for your mid-roll rolls?

It's simple. Like the video will go for like 2, 3 minutes or so, and then there'll be like an ad. If it goes for another like 3, 4 minutes, there'll be another ad. And then that's, that's how we just keep rotating the ads.

And then do you just pop it up on the video with the CTA on the screen?

Yeah.

All right.

You should do that because you're getting like hundreds of thousands of views sometimes, right? Per video.

Over time, yes. Not usually in the first video.

I think it's worth it. Just do that. I guarantee you, you'll get more. Yeah.

We should try it out.

If you buy me more cookies after that. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about this deck that you pulled up.

So Profound has a pitch deck. You can end up seeing it online. You may need an account to Adweek, and their deck pretty much just goes—

I'll show you that removepaywall.com/whatever the URL is, then you're good.

What Profound is, is for anyone who isn't familiar with the tool, it's a tool that helps you track how well you're doing on the AI search engines like ChatGPT or Perplexity when it comes to getting mentions. And what was interesting is they raised a few million bucks and then all of a sudden within less than a year after that, they raised $20 million. And their whole pitch within their pitch deck or part of their pitch, which was really interesting is, you know, when you look at, or at least within the article as well, but when they were telling the story for Profound, they're like 10% of searches happen in AI search engines or start with AI search engines now. And if you look at the fintech brand Ramp, which has a crazy high valuation, their mentions in AI search rose from 3% to 22% after using Profound's tools. So they're talking about the value. And if you look at Profound's pricing, I believe it's somewhere around like $400-ish. I could be a little bit off.

$500.

It's somewhere around there. $400, $500.

Yeah.

But either way, it's not the cheapest tool, but they're showcasing how companies are getting more mentions, how that's driving better results for these organizations. And that's causing them to continually pay Profound, and they're using Profound's tools to specifically get included in more the AI engines. Now, obviously, Profound's tools can't just get you included a ton of times. You actually got to do work, or AKA marketing, but that's a pretty attractive pitch. Instead of just saying, here's our company and this is why you should invest, they're saying, here's your company, Here's why people are using it because there's a shift happening with search in which 10% is starting to happen with these AI search engines and it's increasing. And look at these brands like Ramp who have used it to grow their brand mentions, their brand, their traffic, and their revenue. Yeah.

So I was kind of giving my opinion on this one. So here's the thing. Last week I had someone else show me like on a demo, a competitor to Profound, and there's a handful of these competitors already. I think there's— I think maybe it's Glenn Ossoff from ViperChill, or maybe somebody else shared this on Twitter, but there's— I think there's like 15 or 20 of these LLM services companies. I mean, you're doing something similar that's coming out with Ubersuggest, right?

Yeah.

So I'm like, okay, they raised $20 million. Okay, let's assume like $80, $100, $120 million valuation. It's— I think the problem with raising so much, and you've raised money, we've both raised capital, but I'm just like, You end up having a board and you start to have expectations and the expectations mean you have to grow at this rate. And if you're not growing at that rate, there's a lot of pressure on you. And I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, but I just, I think for something like this, I guess my question is like, what is the moat?

I don't think there's much of a moat, not for Profound and not even for us at Ubersuggest or AnswerThePublic when we're copying some of these features, just to be really transparent. But I think the mistake they made, because I saw the cost structure. So my team sent me a document depending on the usage. It can be anywhere from, call it like extra, and we have good usage, call it like $30,000, $40,000 on the very low end to like $200,000, $300,000 a month on the high end.

In cost? Yeah. On cost.

Yeah. That's not a lot in cost. We're giving away a lot of it for free because our costs aren't that high. And keep in mind, when you do a search and you have a lot of usage, That keyword or prompt or whatever you want to end up calling it, when other people are interested in that data, you don't have to pull right away. If you pull the previous day, you're going to get similar results, right? And even with a lot of these solutions, you're pulling the prompt multiple times to see what brands, because it does change. You may pull a prompt like 10 times to see the different results and then average it out.

Yeah.

But still, even then, like the costs aren't that high and we included this all in our cost formula. And it's just like, I think they raised too much money. Do I think they should have raised the $3-ish million? I think it was $3.5, yes. But I think they should have went the route that Zapier went. Raise a little bit of money, you get to profitability and scale, and then you got a great business. If things don't work out well for you, then—

They only raised that YC round that they gave it like 7% and that's it. That's all they ever did.

I thought that round took a lot. Zapier?

Zapier, yeah, yeah.

And then from there you just go and you can keep going and you can paint your own journey.

Yep.

Now, if Profound's trying to go pure enterprise and they want to go all or nothing, I think, all right, go for a raise $20 and then go raise another $80 after, you know, swing for the fences.

Yeah.

But I think a better solution is when you have a business that doesn't have a big cost base, which this kind of business doesn't. And if you look at AI costs over time, will drop. It has been dropping. So it's like, why would you raise that much money? But that's just my 2 cents. And you and I have been really against raising money just generally.

Well, I think the times I've worked for companies that have raised money, I've seen it go poorly.

You've also raised money.

I've raised money. You've raised money too. You've seen it. It just, it doesn't work for our personality styles. And we're not saying it's wrong or right. I think it's just a matter of like what your preference is. But I just, I think in this situation, when you have so many different competitors and there's not a big moat around it, I, maybe this is the wrong way to look at it, but when I think about the SEO space, okay, you have BrightEdge, right? They're a 9-figure company, $100 million, right? I think Semrush does what, $400 million? $200 million a year and they're publicly traded. And then Ahrefs public, last public data was like $140 million or something like that, right? And they've all done it differently. BrightEdge raised money, they only target enterprises, $100 million, right? And then Semrush, they got to a certain point and then they, you know, then they went public, right? And then you have Ahrefs who's just been bootstrapped the whole time. So I don't, the question is like, how big can this market get? And I don't know if we just compare it just to, you know, kind of the SEO space and it's not just SEO, but you get what I mean.

Yep.

Yeah. So, all right. You know, this is interesting because we're talking about these 3 different competitors right now. I was thinking about it this week and I'm curious to hear from your end too. So my thought here is, okay, on the Karat side, so Karat is our account-based marketing product. We have one main, like one competitor who's raised tens of millions of dollars, right? We have another competitor based in Europe who has raised a couple million dollars, but they're very inexperienced, right? And then you have us, we're bootstrapped. And so you can say, well, you know, the big company that raised money, maybe their advantage is, well, they have a lot of capital, but I would argue that their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness too, meaning that, okay, they raised a bunch of money, but they have the board to report to. They have to grow at a certain rate, right? And they're subject to the whim of other people's opinions, right? Because when you have a board and you've raised a bunch of money, there are expectations, right?

What's the total raise?

Let's just call it like 50 or 60.

Then the other problem you have, and how many rounds?

Looks like I would say 2 rounds, I think.

And then the other problem you have is founder dilution. And then if you don't hit the growth numbers, the founders get—

You get screwed. Liquidation preferences.

Yes. And then the founders just aren't as motivated to keep pushing forward. And the main reason being is you're like, oh cool, I'm not going to really make any money from this even if I own 20% because I raised a lot.

Then the motivation to work on it is gone, right?

Correct.

Now the second example is, okay, these guys raised like $3, $4, or $5 million, right? These were the guys that copied our features a couple months ago. I don't think they're doing much with it now, but so they raised $3, $4, $5 million. I think they're in their early 20s or mid-20s or so, so you can argue that they're inexperienced as startup founders. Now I might say, oh, they're inexperienced, we're going to crush them, but no, that's not the right way to look at it. Because they're inexperienced, they might try things that I would never try to think of trying, and they might just grow like crazy, right?

Yeah.

So again, people's greatest strengths are their greatest weaknesses, and on our end, we're bootstrapped, but what does that mean? That means we can move very quickly, but that also means we can do whatever we want. And if we can do whatever we want, we might build in the wrong direction. So if we're not very focused and we're not— if we're not very focused and locked in, we're going to start to build a bunch of random things, right? And so there's also, there's always like a trade-off to all this stuff. And that's why I say your greatest strength is also your weakness.

I totally agree with you. And you got to figure out how to use your greatest strength to your advantage. And I think it doesn't matter what route you take in business, You got to execute fast. Like when we look at marketing campaigns and you and I have seen so many over the years, perfection is really overrated. It's about speed, execution, just getting stuff out there and iterating and continually improving it over time.

Now here's the flip side of that, right? So I know you as one of the fastest executors, right? But there's a downside to that too.

Yes, it depends on what aspect of the business, but Me moving fast has also cost my business millions and millions of dollars in expenses that should have never happened.

Yeah.

Because I make mistakes sometimes moving too fast and not thinking things through enough.

Yeah. And by the way, here's the, here's the catch. So, because I remember Neil's personality test when we compare to each other. So Neil's really fast, but he's detail-oriented, right? I'm pretty fast. I'm not as fast as Neil, but I'm pretty fast, but I'm not detail-oriented. So I'm subject to make more mistakes. But even if you're super detailed like Neil is, and he's really good with his memory, You're still going to make mistakes. It just doesn't matter.

Correct.

Yeah.

When you, whenever you move fast, you need to understand that you're going to make more mistakes than compared to when you move slower. And it's just an equation. Is it worth it? Is the risk worth moving quicker? And this brings me into, you know, something that was interesting in this economy. It's been a bad economy. You and I have moved pretty quickly. Would you agree with that on executing? You got Carrot. You've adjusted Single Grain to focus more on B2B, if I'm not mistaken. And we've both been just cranking along, moving fast. And I'm assuming because you've been doing more stuff, you're also investing a lot more, which is—

People a lot. I'm spending so much of my time on recruiting right now.

People and tech.

Yeah. Yeah.

And R&D.

Yeah.

Which means your margins must be lower. You're making way less profit than you normally used to, right? I had this interesting conversation with a friend yesterday. This is like, when do you keep pushing forward and when do you cut? Like when do you draw that line in the sand on your end on when you think you should cut?

I don't have that answer right now. I feel like for me it's just keep going. Like to me it's just you keep building equity in this thing, right? And you're not trying to draw down right now. And to me it's like I just keep building. I think if I were you and I had kids and a family, I think I'd have a different answer right now, but I don't. So I don't really have an answer for me. It's just keep going.

I would agree with that because before when I was not married and I did not have kids, I would've sold everything I had, homes, cars, Etc., to just double down on the business.

The thing you can control. Yes.

And it's more risky, but I'm like, YOLO, I'll just go live with my parents. Even at my age, I'm 40 right now, I would still have just some mentality. I'm like, I'll just live with my parents. They bought their house for a few hundred grand. Worst case, I'll just take it over.

I think it's risky to the normal person, but it's not risky to us, right? I think we should clarify that. It like, it is risky, but—

It is risky even for us because there's things, technology changes, market conditions change, but it won't go to zero.

Yeah, we don't see it that way.

We don't see it that way because we know it won't go to zero and we'd bet on ourselves than something else that we can't control.

Yep.

But when you do have a family, it's harder to do that. I'm still really aggressive on the investing side. And for years, you know, when I look at this crap economy, our business has grown each year.

Mm-hmm.

Which is really hard to do in the marketing space when a lot of our competitors are declining. Our margins have gotten really compressed because of all the reinvestments, But at the same time, you know, when my buddy was asking, he's like, how do you know when to cut? And I was like, I don't think there's necessarily an exact moment where like in the business, oh, I got to just start cutting everything. I look at it as more as like, I'm willing to make X amount of bets a year with X amount of dollars. And when the signals are showing they're not working, I cut them.

Yep.

Because it's foolish to keep putting money at something when you know it's not working and the data's showing it.

You cut pretty fast too.

I cut pretty fast. And when things aren't working, it doesn't mean that the idea was bad. Like, you know, we've tried a lot of paid ads with our agency and because we try to service really well and optimize for the LTV, you know, people look at it and be like, oh, you got an 8-to-1 ROAS. And I'm like, 8-to-1 ROAS does not work well for me based on our cost structure. Right? Because then you got to pay commission on sales and then you paid for, you know, that account or the ad to get the account. It's profitable overall, but you know, in year 1, you're eating a lot of money. And what I was explaining to my team is that doesn't mean paid ads doesn't work. It means we may need to try a different approach and cut the old approach. So the way I look at cutting is if something doesn't work out for me and I really believe in it, I'll cut the person or the technology or the contractor who's working on it and I'll replace it with— I'll try to learn from why it didn't work, then replace it with a new variation that I think will work. And if I keep going multiple times and I can't get it to work, eventually I'll just move on to something else that's bearing better fruit.

Yeah. And by the way, sometimes you might even come back to this in a year or two. Correct. And then it works again.

Yes.

Timing might be better. But like, for example, the podcast thing that you did, the CPMs actually are like— the CPMs are even higher today, right? Yes. It's just a timing thing sometimes. So. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So like, by the way, it's interesting for me because I look at the last, really the last week or so. This is weird. I don't know if you're seeing this, but I remember there's all these deals that like all of a sudden they're all coming back out of the woodwork in the last week. I don't know why.

Like client deals?

Yeah. Like, yeah, client deals for Single Grain, right? Like all these, either they're past clients or they're proposals that maybe Single Grain lost in the past, but they're all coming back. And it's like middle of July right now. So I don't know what you're seeing.

SMB divisions, not bad this month. Our enterprise division, July is the slowest month out of the— for the whole year, every year for us. So on the enterprise side, we are not seeing things pick up, but this is in line with previous Julys for us.

And are you seeing— so what we're seeing on our end is, is again, more continued interest in Reddit. Like today I just looked and it's like, okay, Multibillion-dollar company, they want Reddit. A lot of Reddit interest, a lot of YouTube interest, not as much LLMo that I would expect. And then there's also like people that want agentic workflows. That's what we're seeing.

We're getting a lot of RFPs for LLMo.

Yeah. And you've positioned yourself that way. Yes.

We've changed a lot of our copy, a lot of our pitch decks. We're trying to go hard on that area and we're trying to do it globally, which gets a little bit difficult because like, Things like ChatGPT aren't available in every single country, right? But yet the clients, either they'll use VPNs or they'll want different versions based on the LLM that people are using within that territory. But yeah, at SMB, we're seeing things starting to get a little bit better, but I'm cautiously optimistic because next month could be bad. Enterprise, we're seeing things being really slow, but July's always slow for us.

It's interesting because there's 15 or 20 of these Profound, right? I'm wondering how you partner or buy some of these eventually down the road.

I won't do either.

I mean, They have, they have the, these enterprises working that they need like a referral partner. Don't you partner up with like Google and then like ask for referrals?

Oh, I thought you meant like the software companies.

No, no, no, not the software. No, I do mean the software companies, but like partner, just being that, that, that agency, that, that key, like main referral partner.

I haven't thought about it. Yeah, I look at it a little bit different because we already have the usage on Ubersuggest and AnswerThePublic. Like we'll have more website visitors than them.

You're a competitor, but you can also be a frenemy.

Correct. That's a great way to look at it. But I don't think they'll want to refer to us the moment we release a lot of their features for free and say, hey, instead of $500, you can get a lot for free and it's free every single month.

You just want to be a very democratic person.

Trust me, I will try and my partnership team will try, but it's going to be a hard pitch.

Yeah.

Not for us.

Yeah.

For them to accept us will be the hard part, right? We can pitch it all day long.

It's free to do it.

So yeah. Oh, we'll try.

Yeah.

We think we'll get more business from the LLMs.

Yeah.

Versus the tools.

Dude, we got some really— I'm sure you're seeing the same. We're getting some really good leads from the LLMs.

Let me rephrase. We think we're going to get really good business from the LLMs referring us business, not someone typing in a query on an LLM platform. So like someone working at ChatGPT or Papexy, like an employee there referring us business.

Yeah.

Because if you look at the ad business for Google and Meta, do you know how you get some of the best ad accounts?

Well, we mentioned this last week with Meet at 6.

Yeah, it's employees that manage the agency or client relationships recommending agencies to you. And if you look at Marketo, remember they got bought out by, I believe, Vista, then they sold to Adobe. The way Marketo grew very heavily in their early days is they partnered with Salesforce sales reps and Salesforce sales reps also went in and sold Marketo for them.

Dude, you want to know a fun story? Just a little tangent with Adobe because Adobe is one of, you know, You've worked with Adobe, right?

Yeah.

So that book I'm reading again, In the Company of Giants, that little book, it talks about how Adobe started. Do you know how Adobe started?

Uh-uh.

So you've heard of Xerox PARC before, right?

I've heard of Xerox, the company.

Xerox, like they were known for what? Copy machines in the past, right? And they're multi-billions and billions and billions, right? They actually started a division called Xerox PARC, and this is where Steve Jobs went to visit, and that's where he found the GUI, the graphical user interface, and he saw the mouse and the keyboard. Xerox PARC, had a division that was coming up with all these new products, but products— or sorry, research. They were researching these new products. Research and product never connected, so they never got these products out to market. So these things went to die. The 2 Adobe co-founders worked there and they were very frustrated that their stuff, their— the cool stuff they were building was never making it out because they were printing money with the copy machines. That's why they started Adobe. And I think they started with laser printers or whatever, and that's how it became what it became.

And Adobe is much bigger than Xerox at this point.

Yeah. I mean, is Xerox even around anymore?

No, they're around.

They're for sure, yeah, but like much smaller now. Yeah.

Xerox is a $626 million company.

So what's interesting to me is you look at Xerox, they had, they had all the cards, right? And they just had— they just said, hey, let's take the research stuff and maybe let's productize some of this and not just focus on the cash cow. Maybe like 10% of the resources focused on the new stuff. Like, who does this well? Google does this relatively well with the new stuff, right?

Google does it pretty well and Google's willing to kill off their, their baby.

Yeah. Slowly. They'll kill stupid stuff too, like Google Plus, right? They'll try Google Plus and won't work. What worked? Waymo. Longest time it didn't work. It's starting to work now, right? Um, well, they bought Android, but you know, it works. And then now, now their, their baby, there's their baby, their search baby looks like it has to go in a different direction, but they're, they're not afraid to make changes.

Is it, is it Tesla robotaxis available here in LA?

Not yet. No, not yet. Yeah.

I think people are really enjoying the Waymo experience. I don't know how the Tesla—

Have you done it yet?

I have not, but I see them all the time. Now, I was dropping my daughter off to school today. There was a Waymo in the middle lane. It was a 3-lane road. And I always go in the lane where there's no Waymo because the Waymo tends to be the slowest driver that has extra space. And, you know, in LA traffic, you know this better than anyone else, dude. Like the moment someone has their car a little bit out, the Waymo won't go around and it'll just hold up traffic.

I'm aggressive with Waymo. So I know because they'll like, they'll, they'll, they'll concede to me. So I'll always drive ahead of them and like cut them off or whatever. Cause I know they won't do anything to me cause they won't have road rage. So yeah.

Just don't get too aggressive where you get into a car accident.

That hasn't happened before.

You've never gotten in a car accident?

Oh no. I've had cars hit me. Knock on wood. Yeah, I've had cars hit me. It's like, and then they'll try to blame me. Like, you hit me. So anyway, that's what—

Dude, the last time, this is a random tangent, a car was parked, someone reversed into us and they tried to blame us when we were parked.

Yeah, I've had that happen.

Like literally I was parked, the car wasn't on in a normal parking spot within the lanes. Someone reversed and they got mad and they came in like, you did this and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, All right. And then the good news is there was a camera system right there.

Yeah.

Not in our car, but right there in one of the store owners'—

Dude, you want to know what good marketing is? And then we can move on here. So I've been watching on X. So the Tesla Autopilot, right? There's one picture, one video where this car's about to turn on Autopilot, but then the car stops. Like the lights are green, right? The other car goes ahead. It's green, right? But then a truck comes by and just T-bones the other car, right? But the whole thing is the Tesla knew that it was coming and it stops. That's real. It was real. Yeah. And then the next day Tesla posts, it's like, hey, show me videos of you getting like preventing you from a car accident. Right. And it tweets it out and everyone's responding. Right. So not only was that good marketing that got millions of views on X, but Tesla then went out there. Their marketing department was like, hey, look, give us more videos like that. So then they can make it, stitch it into an ad, I'm sure.

Yeah, no, that's amazing. I didn't realize Tesla could actually detect if someone on the—

It detects like an accident coming up, basically.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Yeah. Here's the problem with most marketing agencies. They don't understand what is happening with the world of AI. With my agency, Single Grain, we think about agentic workflows. We think about creating agents for the future. When we think about SEO, we think about creating different products such as internal linking products or content consolidation products. And on the other side of things, We think about building products such as Karat. We just think about making marketing easier overall. If you want to stay at the cutting edge of marketing and at the same time leverage the power of AI, go to singlegrain.com and we'll see you on the other side.

I'm curious on your thoughts on this, and I think this will be a fun topic to discuss, is do you think hardware companies are going to turn to ad companies? Because I saw how HP is launching an ad business with their laptop targeted ads. You know, like imagine just using your laptop and then you're starting to see more and more ads.

I think everything's going to change. I don't know, like, like I'm— so I'll kick it back over to you, but like what I mentioned, It's kind of related, but I'm like, okay, software will become agencies, agencies will become software and vice versa. So I'm looking at this, I'm like, you're going to try to maximize your shareholder value wherever you can.

So. I don't like the concept of hardware companies turning into ad companies unless there's a deal for us end users. I'm not saying we should get a cut of the ad revenue, but the hardware should be cheaper. When I go to places like Brazil, People always ask me to bring them like iPhones and I don't want to break the law because they're trying to avoid like tariffs and stuff and they want me to like smuggle in iPhones.

Yeah.

Um, because a, a iPhone in Brazil costs way more than it does in the United States.

How much does it cost?

I forgot what the rate was, but like at least 20, 30% more.

Wow.

So like, keep in mind their currency exchange is worse. People make less money.

Yeah.

And then iPhone costs more.

You basically can't afford it.

You can't afford it.

It's a huge luxury there. Huge luxury. Yeah.

Uh, ultra rich have them.

Yeah.

You know, middle class.

Yeah.

To poor people, they tend not to buy them or they get older models.

Yeah.

Because Apple reduces prices. But I know there's a lot of people, including me, that would be willing to buy hardware if it was a lot cheaper. Like if my iPhone was free, but I got ads all the time.

I would take it.

I would take it.

Yeah.

And it could be on my home screen or whatever. I would, I would really take it. Now, if there was an ad before I would make a phone call, I would not take it. That's just causing me more problems.

You're just saying there has to be a win for the consumer. It can't just be you're just trying to like maximize shareholder value.

Yeah, but I think Apple would make more money if they just made their iPhones free and they made revenue from ads, at least in specific regions like the United States where the ad revenue can go up.

Who knows? They might. I mean, they haven't been innovating recently, so.

It's an easy way to juice more revenue without the innovation. I would slowly do a trial run.

You know, this app, this version of Apple doesn't feel like the 1990s quite yet, but it feels like it's kind of going in that direction. Not quite yet, right? I think it's still a ways out and they They have a lot more infrastructure. But I just remembered the slip in the '90s where Apple just started to go straight down.

Yes.

And then the PC went straight up. So we'll see what happens. But to me, it's like, sure, they're part of the Magnificent 7. We'll come back to this. But like, when you look at the companies who are innovating right now, like Meta is pushing quite a bit in terms of how they're poaching talent, right? And then you look at Nvidia, they're innovating, right?

Even Google, they're poaching talent, paying an arm and a leg.

Yeah. And so like they're pushing, but I'm like, where's Apple pushing, right?

Microsoft's pushing.

Microsoft's pushing. You could say Amazon's pushing too.

Dude, have you— I'm pretty sure, uh, Apple has released AI features on their iPhone.

I could be wrong. They suck.

I don't use them. Do you?

You know what you can do? You can make an emoji. You can make an AI-generated emoji from it. That's all I know you can do. And then with Siri, it's still dumb as a rock.

Yes. And then with the typing, I just use Grammarly on my iPhone.

You use Grammarly on your iPhone?

Uh-huh.

Why do you need Grammarly on your iPhone?

So when I'm scheduling out tweets, like if I'm on a plane and stuff and it's really long, because I got the smaller phone, so sometimes I mistype or like push buttons. Grammarly helps catch it and fixes it.

You know what's weird? Do you use autocomplete on your phone? I don't use autocomplete or anything like that. You know how you can like slide the thing?

I hate that. I can't do that. Where you're squiggling your hand and so you're not going up.

But I think also, I also think because we're older, we just like to type it out.

I do see the young, quite a few younger people using the thing where they zigzag with their finger instead of lifting it up. Yeah, they're more efficient than people like you and I. We're actually getting— we're middle-aged.

We're getting old. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still not 40 yet, but anyway. Okay. Back to you.

But yeah, I genuinely believe like looking at these companies like Apple, I agree. They're not really innovating. Like the iPad really hasn't changed. A lot of their products haven't changed over the years. I don't know if I'll upgrade my iPhone in the future. Like what am I really getting at this point? They're not doing anything new. A lot of these hardware companies that have the usage, should just start showcasing ads. Like imagine Tesla, there's this big screen. Why doesn't Tesla put more screens in the robotaxi and just make it even cheaper?

Yeah.

Like usage would go through the roof.

I think the thing Apple has going for them right now is the ecosystem lock-in. And so it's still very convenient, but how much longer are they going to have that for?

Yeah, but you, I agree with that, but I think if they can start integrating into more home products, you know, like automotive and stuff like that, I do believe there will be— they'll still be able to keep the lock-in. They just need to partner with other people who have the software and just integrate that software within their organization. Like instead of Apple building a search engine, they just partnered with Google, right?

Yeah.

They're partnering with ChatGPT as well. The problem is they just need to execute on some of this kind of stuff.

Yeah.

The big opportunity for Apple is to figure out how to just monetize all their users. And I believe the ad ecosystem is probably one of the best ways. I look at the same thing with Google. Their ad ecosystem makes them so much money. If they just figured out a way to get their Waymo costs even lower and they just, I know they're losing money, but break even on Waymo and make it where people are getting served ads, they would make way more money from that than anything else. They already have your email address, you're using the app, they already have all your Gmail.

I'm sure they're going to integrate ads in there because that's a little screen in the middle.

Yeah.

Right. Either you can either pay to not have ads or you can just leave the ads there.

Yeah. I would pay to have ads everywhere. I don't mind ads.

Well, we're also in marketing.

No, but even then, Like some of my subscriptions, you know, like for the television streaming, I have ads and I'd rather have the ads and get the cheaper rate.

Dude, as a gamer, I used to hate ads. Gamers block all ads. I had every ad block, everything. I was like totally locked in. So, and speaking of gaming, I was watching a video of Elon playing Diablo yesterday. He's number 1 in the world in hardcore now for Diablo.

What that means is, what is that?

Yeah. So if you, So you know how like in a game, if you die, you can just respawn and go get your gear and like you can just keep going, right?

I do now.

Okay. Now you know. Well, you know, any game, right? If you die, you can usually respawn.

Okay. So if you die, let's go back. So if I'm at level 5, not level 1, I don't know what levels these things go up to. And I had all these tricks and gears and, you know, trinkets, whatever you wanna call 'em. And I die. Do I just go back to level 5 and I can just pick up all the stuff?

Yeah. Yeah. You stay at level 5, you go, you can pick up your stuff, right? You have to go find your corpse and pick it up, right? That's how it works in Diablo.

Can someone else pick it up for you before you?

No, well, depends if you're playing PvP, which is totally different. If you're playing PvP where I can kill you, and then if I kill you, then your gear might come out and I'll steal your gear, right?

But normally people can just pick up their own stuff and they don't worry about getting jacked.

Yeah, exactly. So it's very safe, right? So he's number 1 in the world on hardcore. Hardcore means if you die, you lose it all, right?

Including your level?

Everything. Everything's gone. You have to start a new character.

From level 0 or 1?

Yeah. All the way down to level 1.

So what level is he?

He's maximum level, number 1 in the world. He has the best gear. But the reason I even bring this up is one, how does this guy have time for games? People are wondering that. Like, what I've read is he blocks his days into like 5-minute increments, right? He's doing like the highest leverage things per 5 minutes, right? The other thing is when you look at, he always reasons from first principles, right? So I'm like, okay, I was thinking about this yesterday in the shower, right? I was like thinking about how Elon plays like Diablo. I'm like, if he's reasoning from first principles, he understands that all he needs to do And spend a ton of his money on the richest gear because you can buy the gear, right? Buy all the—

How much can gear cost? Like $5?

Oh dude, I've— when I was 13 years old, I sold a helmet in a game for $3,000.

You're 13? How much is a silly helmet?

This is not even a real helmet or a virtual helmet? Virtual helmet.

This is a waste of money.

Whatever. Somebody, some guy bought it from me.

If your mom knew that you—

She did know.

She did know. That you're buying stuff for $3,000?

I didn't buy it. I sold stuff. I never bought anything because I thought people were idiots for buying it, right? But if you value your time like Elon does and you're the richest man in the world, you just buy the best gear. How much is it going to cost you? Like $20 grand at most, maybe $10, something like that, right?

So he's— you think he spent like $20 grand on gear?

I think he spent a ton of money on the gear and then you can basically like, you're unstoppable, right? And that is a very simple way of first principles. I just need the best gear and then I'm unstoppable. And that's how he's number one.

So it's kind of like a cheat code.

Yeah, basically.

So if I spent like $1 million on gear, I would, I could beat Elon.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you have to, you have to play at a high level too. So when I, when I see him playing, he's playing on a 55-inch screen and he's like, you can see his, his actions are like, he's moving very quickly. Right. And he's like hitting his keyboard, a bunch of shortcuts really quickly. Now guys, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think directionally I'm correct cuz I played many versions of Diablo.

So there's more than one version of this.

You played Diablo 4? Yeah. I played Diablo 1 when I was like 8, 9 years old. Then there's Diablo 2 to Diablo 3 and Diablo 4.

Oh, it's like one of my favorite games. There's a lot of versions. What's your favorite game?

Monopoly. Oh yeah, real estate and money. I love Monopoly. Makes sense.

I even paid for it, dude, on my phone. It's like a few bucks.

Before we move on here, like talking about, I was debating yesterday with a friend and then we were talking about like, oh, you're throwing money away renting or whatever, right? And then I actually, you used to own a bunch of property, right?

It's a waste of money. You're better off renting.

Yeah, talk about how your philosophy changed over like, 'cause the way we were brought up, there's a little investing lesson, our experience share here. Was our moms and dads told us that you should buy, you should always buy a home. You're throwing away money renting, you're always going to make money. And then, and then I had my reasons, but I want to hear your reasoning and then we can move on from here.

Sure. So I'll use one of my homes as an example because I know the numbers quite well. Property tax, a little bit less than $20,000 a month. So let's just round to $20,000 a month. A month. Yeah. Mortgage, $39,000. It's not too leveraged. It's really actually very underleveraged. Yeah, $39,000. So let's just round up to $40,000 to keep the math simple. So you're at $60,000. Maintenance, gardening, pool, property manager, which is a contractor because no one wants to deal with it, and electricity, water, roughly $5,000 a month. I'm just rounding. I'm probably off by like no more than $3,000, $4,000 on the whole thing. So let's call it $65,000 a month.

All right.

Now the home is a $30 million home at this point. We've spent a lot on renovations. So let's call it, I have $23 million in equity, $7 million mortgage. Technically the home's probably worth closer to $30 to $35, but let's just go with $30 and we're just going with my rough costs. So when you're looking at the math there, that's $23 million sunk costs that's put into the house that I'm not getting back because that was the equity, the cash I had to put in. Then you have still with that, you have the monthly payments of roughly $65,000. And again, I'm off by a few grand, call it $2,000, $3,000, but let's just go with easy numbers. On the $23 million, you know, because I was talking to my wife, I can go rent a house, like a nicer house. It won't be as nicely done up, but it'll be bigger. Land will be bigger. It's worth more, but it'll be older. It's still in Beverly Hills. And let's say I can rent easily, 3-year contract, $120,000, $140,000 a month. I could just negotiate that. Now you may look at that as, let's say I get it for around $130,000. We'll go to middle point.

Yeah.

And I'm at 65. That's roughly double what I'm paying. Yep. But the $23,000 that I have now—

Opportunity cost.

That $23,000, I can, I wouldn't say easily, but I would say I'm probably like 80 to 90% certain That I can ink out, call it $4 or $5 million, $4 on the worst case scenario, $5 on a good case scenario without any growth, just like buy businesses and ink out that much in profit. Plus there's opportunity to grow, but some could decline. But if you just keep it simple with just say $4 on the really low end, which would be a terrible deal for me, and I usually wouldn't spend $23 to only make $4 million in profit.

Yep.

But even at $4 million, it's just like, Okay, $130,000 a month. You know, you start looking at that, that's less than $2 million a year. And you're just like, I'm making foreign profit.

Plus that those businesses scale too, over time.

Yes.

Because the other thing too is if you look at the real estate returns, oh, well, you're going to get a return. Okay, what are you getting like 4 or 5% a year on real estate? Maybe, maybe, maybe a little better. But on business, what is your return that you're getting on it?

That I'm getting on my business.

I'm just talking about like in general for people, your return's going to be a lot better than 4 or 5% a year.

Well, not just that. If I spent that money buying the businesses, the businesses are probably worth double when I integrate them in. So if I spent $23 million, I'm probably inking out conservatively $35, $40 million just right there off of thin air, just from the purchase. But we usually don't buy stuff unless we know we can cut costs and grow it. So I would hope the 23 turns into at least 50 and turns into at least something like on the low end, $5, $6 million in profit, if not more.

My point is your internal rate of return is going to be a lot higher. The other thing too is if you buy homes and things like that, then you have to actually manage it. It's like when Sam Ovens is like, well, if I buy a TV, then I have to watch it. So yeah, like it's like it's stuff. It's cognitive load.

Yes.

Yeah.

And that's why I end up believing that we shouldn't own any homes and we should just rent them all.

I believe, okay, and I think you're doing this, but like, I believe owning a home for your family is fine, but I think owning a bunch of homes just is a pain in the ass for me.

So, so Eric and I were having this conversation because the economy's really bad. I'm like, dude, do I sell the home and just put all that money into business? And Eric was going through some tough times with his mom. She passed away recently and it gave him a different Or a unique, a new perspective on life, I would say. And we were talking, he's just like, you know, he's like, you've made— I'm not the richest person, but he's like, you've done okay in business. Your life is decent. He's like, are you really going to die and remember you making, you know, taking that $23 and turning it into $50 or $60 million? Or would you rather have a really nice house with amazing furniture? And like, when I say amazing furniture, I think our furniture bill's like $1.7 million just for furniture on our—

Which Neil didn't pick, by the way.

I didn't pick any of it. I would've picked IKEA furniture if it was up to me. Some decisions, and I'm not hating on it, you know, there's other things that I spend money on that are a waste too. But Eric's like, would you rather have your kids really happy and have things like a theater or whatever they want in a house? And a big backyard where they can play and play basketball with them and have those experiences? Or would you rather just have more net worth? And the old me would've had more net worth, but I think Eric was spot on because I now will have better memories with my kids because right now we don't have a yard and they want a yard.

And you'll pay anything for those memories down the road. Correct. Yeah.

And, and, and the furniture and stuff like that, I, I think that's a pure waste.

Yeah.

But the only reason I did it is I'm like, if I want to sell it, it actually makes it easier to sell the house, believe it or not.

Yeah. No, I believe it.

Yeah. So then you just get a premium, not anything—

It's a product just like the cookies.

Correct.

Yeah. By the way, did I tell you I hired a cursor coach?

You did tell me that.

Did I?

Mike from my end also has a cursor coach.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay, tell me how it's working from Mike's and then I'll give you mine.

So Mike's main reason for a cursor coach is—

And Mike's your co-founder?

Mike's my co-founder of NP Digital. We do a lot of stuff manually and we of course try to leverage AI and automate it. We have an internal team that does it, But sometimes Mike and I just want to do stuff on our own. Mike's been spending way more time on this than me, but like to just get it set up and get all the data feeds integrated with it, it's a real pain. And just knowing how to prompt doesn't mean that Cursor's going to work the way you want and it's going to output the things the exact way you want. So he had a coach who helped him set it up and he has a coach who helps him get over roadblocks and things that aren't working. And it's actually been working really well for him.

How much does he pay for the coach? I'll tell you mine.

It can't be much because he got them from— my guess is he got them from Upwork. So my guess is no more than like $30 an hour, if I had to guess. Yeah.

So mine's $50 now. He invoices me $50 per session or whatever. And it's the same thing. So the reason why we're even talking about Cursor, like neither Neil and I are coders, especially not me, but Cursor's an IDE. It's an interactive— I believe it's an interactive development environment, something like that, right? Where you can— it helps you code edit, it helps you correct your code mistakes, things like that. The cool thing with Cursor is you can integrate with different MCPs. These are model context protocols, just meaning that you could have it talk with different apps. So I can query, hey Gong, how many discovery calls did we do last week? Okay, what's the open pipeline right now? And there's a HubSpot MCP too. There's a QuickBooks MCP where you can pull your financial data too. There's a Google Analytics MCP, there's a Google Search MCP, Google Search Console MCP. So I can pull all this data if I want. I can also, you know what I can do, Neil? I can use Apify and I can scrape the Facebook library, the LinkedIn library. I can scrape a bunch of Instagram posts and I can have it, I can even have it input websites or copy for me and things like that. So basically I can work within these IDs and even like using Comet, which is Perplexity's browser, or Dia, these browsers, you can work within them now. And I feel like we're going to be working within these a lot more. And this is all just to just make us faster. And I think it's good that you have Mike doing it and then I'm doing it because then they'll just show you, we'll just show you how to do it later.

Yeah.

That's probably easier because it's really frustrating setting it up right now.

Yeah, I know. I believe it. And I used to be at a point in my life where I would spend a lot more time on like technology and learning it. What I find my highest leverage point in today's, you know, where my business is, is like dealing with stuff like, hey, we're getting all these leads and this is what we're pitching and our discovery call to pitch ratio has gone down. Let me figure out how to rework the pitch and create a message that resonates with the market. So I'll do a lot of testing on like X and ad channels like Meta, and I'll run ads with different types of copy that I would include in my pitch. And the ones that resonate the most, I know they're most likely to work the best on our discovery calls to get more people to want to pitch.

So you know what I want to do with this in the future? I want to take, let's say, all of your ad library data and you can see the historical performance, right? Or I want to take All of— let's say I have tens of thousands of Gong calls. We talked about this where I want to make a synthetic customer persona and I can just talk to it in Cursor instead of me having to do a customer development call. I can have an infinitely patient thing that's trained on all my data and say, hey, what's the next— what's the next angle here? What should we build? I have this angle over here. Let's work on it. Right. And then it's based on all the— like, why do I need to wait for customer development anymore? Yeah, dude.

Masalo from my team did something really good. And even though he's not the CMO, he really does run marketing. He did something that was really interesting where we can automatically crawl and dissect using AI the top performing YouTube ads within any category, and then it'll create a variation that's relevant to any business we want, and then it creates an output and we just do it at mass scale for testing.

That's great. Wait, so you're doing it now? So how many are you making?

How many ads are we making?

Yeah, at a time.

Based off of that? Like maybe like 16, 17 a week. That's a lot.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good amount.

It's all automated.

Dude, you're, you're, I saw a recent YouTube video you put out and it was like an AI-generated thumbnail.

Yes. But the video isn't using AI, but I saw the thumbnail. I was like, what the heck is this? This doesn't look like me.

It's a crazy version of you.

Yeah. And they're like, oh, we just use AI. And what they're doing right now is they just test a lot of different variations because, you know, YouTube allows A/B testing natively. And then once we have a winning variation, either they'll redo it with my real picture, or if it's doing extremely well, they won't mess with it. And they're like, people will see the real you in the video if they watch. And I'm like, okay.

And did you pick a new studio too?

No, same studio.

Oh, but they have a nicer setup now. I was like, that's a nice setup. Oh, that's the big conference room in the back, isn't it?

I don't know.

I'm going to have the same setup.

You'll have the same setup. I don't know.

I'm just kidding. I like my setup. Yeah.

I have no idea which one it is or it isn't.

It looks nice though. I like the nice— so Neil has a new background now where, um, there's like a little monitor in the back with MP Digital on it.

Oh no, that was temporary.

Oh, what? Where? Where was that?

Uh, one of my buddy's place, because he's just like, hey, do you want to do it for free here? I got this free space.

And I was like, sounds good.

Free sounds good. I had to pay $20 for parking though.

Okay.

But it was still cheaper than paying for a studio.

Where's that place?

It was a 32-minute drive.

Oh no, see, that's too far. That's too far.

It's even further for you because you're more west than I am.

Mine's a 10-minute walk.

Yeah.

Yours is what? A 10-minute drive to get there.

10, 15 minutes. Yeah, but I went for the savings.

Got it.

This time. But I don't have that anymore in my future videos.

Yeah. Looks nice though.

It wasn't free forever.

Yeah. Cool.

All right.

So by the way, I'm doing something right now. I was talking to a guy yesterday. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to hit my entire TAM, my total addressable market, with 400,000 emails. per month. They're only going to get 2 emails. It's a 2-email sequence, right? And I was talking to one guy that does this for other companies, right? And basically for one company, he's booking 12 to 15 meetings per day for like this one's for an agency and then for another person. And I think Adam Robinson would be okay with me saying this for retention, our B2B, he's booking him and they're not sending nearly this amount of volume, but booking him one meeting a day. Right. And so I'm like, okay, sure, let's try it. Let's hit 400,000 of my TAM. Let's find everybody in it and let's see how it goes. So we're going to give it a shot.

What do you mean 400 on your TAM?

So 400,000 people in my TAM, because let's assume there's 20,000 people in B2B or whatever, 20,000 companies, but there's still a lot of people that work within these companies. So we'll hit them. The key thing, I was like, so what is the key thing here? He's like, well, the key thing is offer, right? And one of the companies, they're just sending AirPods. I'm like, AirPods are so old. Like that's something you would do like 2, 3 years ago. He's like, well, AirPods are back. I'm like, are you sure they're back?

Like, Send the cheaper generation.

Yeah, or older version. Save money, right? Yeah. But basically they're doing something to stand out, right? And so to book these 12 to 15 meetings per day. So I'm like, well, the thing that works for Adam Robinson is he kind of has a name around B2B. So they're using his name. I'm like, okay, you can test my name, but just if we overuse my name, it can get associated with spam. So I will report back on how this goes in, you know, in a couple episodes and then you'll You'll talk about your experiment with how you might, I don't know, I think we had one earlier where you might partner up with someone. I don't know.

So.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. But on a random note, going back to the video topic, you know what's interesting that I learned from that new background that I would've never thought? So that new background doesn't look as good as the one that we were doing in studio, in my opinion. The editing is really good quality. And I assumed the background had a little bit of effect, like what people will think and whatnot. And, you know, I was going through the comments and stuff like that. And I did tell him, you know, I was wrong on the background. The background doesn't make that much of a difference. Editing, I already knew doesn't matter that much. It's just a nice to have. And one of the video views got— did really well. The other one didn't do as well. They were both— an arm and a leg was spent time-wise on scripting between me and the other person. You're probably talking about 7, 8 hours just on scripting each video.

Wow. Each video?

Each video.

Each video is like what, 15 minutes?

Yeah.

Wow.

So we're spending a lot of time on scripting. And I was telling him, I'm like, the duds are duds, not because of the editing, that I already knew. The background, I was like, man, is it going to make an effect on leads and all that kind of stuff? Because people don't think it's as professional. Didn't really make a difference. But the big thing is, and we know this more than any, you and I have experienced this so many times. What are you talking about? Is it something new that people are interested in or is it just regurgitated information? And if it's new, you're probably going to do well. If it's not new, even if your hook's amazing, we're in a world where there's just too much content. It just doesn't do well in today's world.

Yeah. And what I've learned too is you have to hit them with like some, like a really good nugget in the beginning to keep them going. If you save the nugget for later, it doesn't work. They're just gone. Yeah. Because they can easily just find another video. Yeah. Yeah. So by the way, I'm looking at my YouTube right now. It's, um, I posted something like a couple of weeks ago, but basically I'm just like, the YouTube algorithm just never stops working for you.

Right.

And then this is like, this video was like a nothing burger for like a year or whatever. Like it just kept— Look at that.

Now it's just shooting and it's an old video.

It's old video. Yeah.

How many days is this? Like 300 and something or 2 something?

362 days. Wow. Yeah.

So pretty much a year.

Yeah, pretty much a year. And now it's at, this is a short by the way, but now it's at 739,000 views. Yeah. So, but it's like, it just, the YouTube algorithm never stops working for you. So you always try to work on your packaging, try to fix the thumbnail, the headline and all that, um, you know, with whatever time you have.

Yes.

All right. So I wanted to take a moment to tell you about my podcast co-host Neil's agency called NP Digital, and they work with a whole host of global companies or a global organization. Also, Neil has SEO tools such as Ubersuggest, and AnswerThePublic. All you have to do is go to npdigital.com to learn more, and we'll see you on the other side.

AI replacing your website. You know, we talked a little about the cookie company. What is it? Warm Cookie?

Warm House Cookies.

Warm House Cookies. You know, I do think less sales will happen on a website. I just don't see AI fully replacing a website. And people are already telling me, like, I was on a call with a big Global company, they're publicly traded, they're in the energy space and they're just like, we don't know if our website's going to be important anymore. We think people will just deal with agents and agents will take care of everything and there's going to be no need for a website. So we're thinking about spending less and less money on our website. And I was like, well, first off, people go to your website to pay their bills. Energy, right? I'm not talking about like petroleum. I'm talking about like energy, like electricity and stuff like that.

Yeah.

There's not tons of options in their space, but they still want the brand. And a lot of these energy companies also make money in other avenues than just selling electricity to homes. And I was just like, I think this is a big mistake. Not only do you got to keep up the website for people logging in and paying their bills and making things easier, and it is an acquisition channel for 'em because they're in some markets where there are choices. And I was just like, and they have multiple product lines. I'm like, some of the products you sell are contracts for like $5, $10, $15 million. Like, yeah. I'm like, you think someone's just going to use an AI agent and just sign a $15 million contract without it going through checks and balances and people reviewing stuff on your website and all this stuff? And they're like, I don't know, maybe in the future. I'm like, it could be. I don't know how many years from now, but it's not going to be happening in the next next 5 years, guarantee it, most people aren't going to sign $15 million B2B contracts through AI agents. I don't see that. Do you see that?

No. And Aaron Levy from Box tweeted something interesting today. I think what's going to happen is you're still going to get usage-based pricing, like per seat, right?

Yes.

But the agents, the AI agents that are doing the work, they're going to get— they're going to be charged on like a usage basis because you got so many agents on the web, right? But to your point, I don't think this is going to happen for like 5 years or so. So I think websites should still be prioritized. I think over time they'll become more and more deprioritized. Because I saw this tweet from Elon the other day. I think Greg Eisenberg tweeted something like, oh, which browser is the cool one, right? And then Elon responded like, what's a browser? So I do think long-term, like he's usually right about trends, right? Let's just call it what it is. But I think that there's still— websites are like a cigar butt type of thing too. I think don't throw it away right now. It's too early.

I don't look at them as like a cigar butt. I look at them as more like Um, oil. There's alternative energy sources, but you still need oil. Like people don't talk about, you know, when you build like a lot of these like windmills in these areas where, um, they're trying to do clean energy, you know how much cement they're using and how much oil is needed to make those cement trucks?

Yeah.

Or to make that cement and those trucks that are there to, with the cranes to pull that are using diesel fuel to get that, you know, big pole up in the air. Like you still need it. Maybe you don't need it as much, but I don't see it going to zero.

We need all energy right now. And I think with websites, you're still— I think you're always going to need to have something to show off your business online, whether it's a website or something else. And so yeah, that's my take on it.

So, and yeah, whether it's your website, but at the same time, I think businesses are not investing enough onto their presence on like social media, because they're not seeing as much direct ROI from the organic stuff. When That is a version of your website, just like with Warm House Cookies and their Instagram profile. And you can also run transactions on a lot of these platforms. So you need to make sure that you're taking what you're doing with your website, but porting that over to all the channels that you're on.

Dude, speaking of organic social, I was looking at the, the Clue.ly founder's post this morning on Twitter. So he actually shared their strategy. So what they do is Clue.ly, they hire, they hired 700 clippers. So I want, I want us to kind of give, give our take on whether we think this is smart or dumb, but let me just give the strategy here, right? So clearly, just so you guys know, it's cheat on everything. Like you have this interface, like if I'm talking to Neil on a Zoom call right now, I can see, you know, Neil is from this county over here. Here's where companies you worked at and all that type of stuff, right? Like a heads up display. So what they do, number one, is they find clippers. As always, the answer is to scroll more. So they scroll on Instagram, TikTok, every single time you find a clip of anything, DM the account. What he DMs an account is paid clipping opportunity. Okay. Paid clipping opportunity gets responded to 9 out of 10 times. So 90% response rate. And so he says here, the people running these accounts are hungry Slovakian teenagers. Okay. Number 2, pay per view, not video. We pay clippers $0 per video. We only pay per, uh, we pay bonuses, right? So maybe let's call it every, like a dollar for every 1,000 views or so. This makes sure we lose nothing from bad clippers and only pay what we want. Number 3, when you find someone good, pay them more. Power law exists in everything, including clippers. 1% of your clippers will generate 99% of the views. Make sure the top 1% are rewarded well and stick with you. Number 4, and then the number 5 is the last one. Make sure you have enough content to clip. I go on at least 2 podcasts weekly. Everyone at Clue.ly creates content. Our clippers clip everything. The biggest reason not to have 400 clippers is because you don't have 400 clips a day to post. Make more content. Number 5, Not sure about this one. Tracking ROI. Don't do it. Clipping is cheap and its value isn't in direct product ROI. It's in squeezing all the virality out of potentially viral moments. Everyone has made a single post that flopped. Posting 699 more times will make sure you get the virality it deserves. So what do we think about this?

It reminds me of the Andrew Tate model.

It is the Andrew Tate model.

Yeah.

Yeah. So what's interesting is—

But his was better in which he just pays per sale.

Yeah, yeah. And then I know he probably had more clippers than 700. But the question is like, is this smart or dumb? I think if you're in consumer, I think this might work. This is interesting because I asked the— there's a MrBeast guy that we were talking to, guy used to work for MrBeast. And I showed him this post, right? I was like, this morning, I was like, what do you think about this? He's like, one, he's like, I hate the Clueless founder. I was like, yeah, you know, he can be a little polarizing. That's fine. You can have your opinion. Two, he's like, I think this is stupid and won't work for a long time. I actually sent him a reply saying, I'm like, hmm, like, Like, why don't you think this will work? Because it's clearly worked for Tate. I think MrBeast has done this as well. And then now you have a consumer SaaS company doing it. And so I think it'll work for them. I just, you know, I think it's smart. I think it clearly works right now. So we'll see where it goes.

I think it can, it won't be as effective for B2B, but for B2C, it's effective. I think this works extremely well for personal brands who create content. So if you want to become famous, and you create a lot of content like Alex Hormozi and the content's good and already does well, you can pay a crap ton of people to start clipping and you can go viral and you can probably like 10x your views and get your brand way more out there.

I think, look, the Andrew Tate model is you're just very controversial. Okay? Whatever you say is like, it's going to get views, right? This guy tries to play a little controversial too. I think with Alex Hormozi, he's very well-spoken and he does, it takes a lot of work to to actually simplify a topic. And most people don't see that, but that's why his stuff does really well too. It's like he simplified these topics and he spent a lot of time and effort on them. So yeah.

Yeah. And it's, it's, I think it's worked out really well.

Yeah, it's great.

And I think with Clue.ly, one of the biggest reasons why the clips work is because they are controversial, like you said, and they have been that way because it's, you know, if you look at their business from day one, It's not like, here's our software and it can help you with X, Y, and Z. It's cheat on everything. They're taking a controversial take and because they know cheating is bad, but they're just like, people still like cheating. It makes life easier. So we're going to help you cheat everywhere.

Dude, did you see that 2% of creatives drive 50% of volume on Meta?

I did not see that stat, but I believe it. I assumed it would be like 1% drives the majority. I would assume it's more than 50%.

So this Meta post over here says matching creative volume to audience complexity helps you reach more people. Just 2% of creatives in gaming categories account for 53% of total ad spend. So this is known as the Pareto principle. So like 20% can yield 80% results. And then it says advertisers in non-gaming categories are increasing creative output by 18% year over year, with the top 2% of creatives accounting for slightly lower share of spend, 48%. So it doesn't matter if you're gaming or whatever, that's what it is.

See, I assumed it was like 1 or 2% on Meta, more so 1%, makes up like 70, 80% of the ad spend because there's so many creatives and people running ads. It's just most of them just suck and don't work.

Yeah. And I think most people don't run enough creatives. I think the cool thing about organic is like you just keep pushing it until stuff works and then you make it a creative, right? Did you see this one? No, you definitely didn't see this one, but I want to show you how marketing yields a 98% profit margin on a commodity. So have you seen this before? This is like one of these like water sprays. It's called Aveen. Have you seen this?

What do you mean water spray?

Literally, it's a can of water where you can spray water.

Oh, I don't get the purpose.

So, okay, um, here's what it says.

Can't I just turn on the faucet?

This guy, this guy Levelz, yes, you can. So, so Levelz tweeted this. He's like, I need to learn how women marketing works. They are able to sell 300 milliliters of literally water in a pressurized spray bottle for $19.

Wow.

Cost of water, cost of water is $0.005. And with packaging is $0.30, 98% profit margin. It's exceptional.

Good for them.

When you look at the bottle, it's like written in French and all that. It's, it's, it seems really like, I don't know, high-end, right? When you look at it.

Like water from the Swiss Alps or something like that.

Or like, you know, when you buy like an Aquapana or like a Fiji, it's like, oh, it's from Fiji, right? Yeah, I should pay more for that. So that's, I mean, that's the power of marketing. But like, he's asking a question. I don't quite know how this works either, but did you know that 80% of spend, consumer spend comes from women?

In general?

Yeah. Look it up.

For women-related stuff, like them buying for themselves or them buying for the household?

I heard, I heard it's just in general, like everything all in.

I know the majority of the people who make purchasing decisions in the household are women.

Yeah.

And they tend to buy for the household.

Sure. That factors into it too.

Yeah. But what I'm getting at is, is that 80% that they're spending on themselves, because I'm assuming that's too high, it's women are spending 80, you're saying, I'm assuming it's women are spending 80%, but that's for household and themselves and everyone else in the family.

All in. They basically make the call. So I mean, the interesting thing about Level saying this is like, I need to learn how women marketing works because I guess that product is for women. So.

Yes. For consumer, I agree, 80+% of, I don't know if it's exactly 80%, but I'll go with it.

Yep. Cool. You pick the next one. We have like, we can do like 1 or 2 more.

Google Shopping ads. Have you seen the click surge? 18%. Tanuti actually had an interesting graph on this, um, and they're surging while Amazon and Temu pull back.

Dude, hold on. I, I, sorry, you finish and then I have the consumer data here.

Yeah. So, you know, Google has been doing exceptionally well and they've been picking up a lot of ad revenue where there's been pullback in places like Temu. But some of that's impacted by things like tariffs and stuff like that that Temu can't control. But Google Shopping ads are surging and doing extremely well for marketers right Google's great.

Look, I don't know what your holdings are, but Google is in there for me. So I think it's a great business. You look at all the things, right? Like Waymo, Android, you know, they still have the main browser, just all these things, quantum computing, all these things, right? And the search, like people like to say, oh, it's dead. It's just not quite dead yet.

So no, and in theory, from what I've seen on television and what I've read, Google's ahead on quantum computing.

Yeah, quantum computing. And you can say they're right up there with self-driving right now too. So they've got a great business and then they're up there with with the models that they have too. Gemini, pretty good. VO3 is great too. I don't know how much you guys have used VO3, but it's pretty great.

I have. I've used it a lot. Even me personally, I've used it.

You make it for your kids?

Sometimes to tell stories and stuff like that. But like, I'll talk about my kids about like, like someone taking a stroll down Rodeo Drive and actually have it create the video and stuff. But it doesn't really look like Rodeo Drive. It's trying to make it look like Beverly Hills, but it's off. But it's good for a free tool.

Imagine if you wanted to teach your kids a lesson and then you hire like a kid that's really good with VO3 from like high school or college. And then they basically storyboard everything out for you on basically like, here's why you shouldn't steal or whatever, or here's why you shouldn't walk into like dangerous areas. And then it tells a story and it like, it like, I watched one video where it's about like genetic engineering and it was the VO, it was all VO3. I think, I don't know if I linked it to you, but that guy spent $500 on a video, spent like 16 hours on it. And it was like a 15-minute video or 30 minutes. And it was like really well done. It was like watching a movie.

Huh. Yeah. I thought it was free. It costs money?

No, dude, I pay like $100. Right now it's a discount, it's $129, I think. But when the discount's over, it's $249 a month.

I've used it. I thought it was free.

No. Well, you're probably using where it gives you like a couple, but I pay for Google like Ultra or whatever. So yeah. Yeah. But I should probably cancel it.

And I don't know if it makes a difference that we have Google corporate.

No, you'd have to just add on. It doesn't make a difference.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

So, okay, I want to go back to the spend real quick.

But yeah, that makes sense because my usual video clips are really short.

Yeah.

I'm not making anything long.

Well, no, I think each one caps you out at 30 seconds or something like that, and then you have to figure out how to stitch them together. And then the problem is also the character consistency is like they keep making new characters every time. So, but like this video that I saw, they seem to keep the characters consistent. I don't know how they did it, but okay. So the question I asked ChatGPT, I was like, do women handle 80% of consumer spend? So the answer is yes. And guys, ChatGPT isn't gospel, But let's just go with this for now, right? Yes, it's commonly cited that women drive around 70 to 80% of consumer purchasing decisions in the US and other, and many other developed markets. Here's the breakdown. Purchase influence. While women may not make every transaction themselves, they are the primary decision makers or influencers for the majority of household purchases.

Yeah.

Which you were saying, right? Including groceries, healthcare, education, home goods, and even cars and financial services. And that sounds like Michelle, Yeah.

Do you know how I know this? How?

Because you look at your bill?

No, no, no. A lot of conversations and working with Procter Gamble and Unilever, household goods. And I, you know, I've been to their offices all around the world, like Procter Gamble Brazil, Unilever UK. Like I've literally been to so many of their offices, given speeches, worked with them on projects.

Yeah.

And they all tell you the same thing. Doesn't matter what country you're in.

Yeah. And look, there's sources here would be like BCG, Boston Consulting Group, McKinsey sort of cited in here, HBS, sorry, not HBS, Harvard Business Review, Forbes. But I think it's interesting. So it's, you know, you have to figure out how you can make your marketing favorable in the eyes of women, right? Because they call 70, 80% of the shots.

Assuming your product is for household goods. If you're selling like trousers for men, I don't know if you need to go that far.

Yeah, trousers. Who calls them trousers? You call them trousers? Just trousers. Dude, we're getting old, man. Okay, this will be the last thing here. So Dharmesh posted this on LinkedIn. This is interesting because we've heard this, right? A jack of all trades is a master of none. You've heard that, right? But the full version, we don't— do you know what the full version of that is?

No.

Okay. The full version is a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one. Okay. So which turns the meaning around actually. I didn't know that. So now it's basically saying that being good at many things, like being a generalist, is often better than being great at one thing, i.e., a specialist, right? So I think this distinction is even more relevant now because the age of generative AI is the age of generalists.

Yeah.

So, okay, people might look at you as a marketer, look at me as a marketer, but if you look at us over the years, like I've known you for 14 years, 15 years maybe, you've evolved a lot over the years. You've picked up a lot. Like, did you know about M&A in the beginning? Not a lot, no. Did you know a lot about like organic social?

No, you didn't.

Did you have a family? No. Like, did you know about marriage? No. Like, you learn all these things over time and you become masters in these other areas too, or jack of all trades, obviously.

That's true. And if you want to just focus on marketing, you and I are both pigeonholed by a lot of people as SEOs, and we both know how to run our own paid ad campaigns, like actually logging into Meta and running them.

Yep.

It's funny because when I get on the calls, I'll tell people how they're doing it wrong and—

And they'll look at you like an idiot, right?

They'll look at me as they're like, what do you know? Yeah, exactly. And then when I tell them what they're doing wrong, they're like, oh no, it doesn't work. I'm like, oh, try this. And they're just like, oh, okay. Or I'll be like, oh, you're not running high ROAS, try high ROAS and you'll get a higher ROI depending on the campaign type. And they're just like, oh yeah, no, it doesn't work. And then you get them to tell like, oh, it did convert better.

Yep.

And what I found over time is people still pigeonhole us, but you and I have learned everything from running our own paid ads to modifying our own website, to writing copy, to doing our own organic social, to scripting, to video editing, We've tried it all.

I find it's good to be pigeonholed because it's easy to focus. Just like when you think about Kleenex, you think about tissue, right? Or when you think about dude wipes, you think about wiping, you know, your butt, right? So like, it's, it's good that that's happening, but don't let that stop you from continuing to learn, which is what we've done over time, right? Like, oh, did we just become good at sales all of a sudden? No. Like, we learned how to talk to customers. We become good at customer development. Yeah. Did we learn how to work on product? Like, those are all things you learn over time. And by talking to, like, you talk to people a lot. I like to read a lot. I like to do like these little networking things. It just, you figure out what works for you. Like, did we know how to do events before? Well, actually you've done events before.

Yeah.

But like we learned that over time is my point.

But same with the talking to people and doing sales. When you do sales and you learn what resonates, this also helps guide you with your marketing campaigns because you know what works. When you're testing different marketing campaigns, you know what resonates, what messaging, what value proposition, all that kind of stuff, and you're A/B testing You know what's more likely to work on a sales pitch based on the data that you're seeing from advertising. It all, a lot of it ties in with each other.

Yep.

And you got to continually, you know, sharpen your knowledge and your skill sets.

And this will be the final thing I'll say, but if you think about any of the founder friends that we know, are they a master of one? I don't think I know one.

I think they're more generalists.

Yeah, they're generalists.

They may have, they more, they may have specialty and they typically all have a specialty in one area over another, but they, if you want to classify them, they're more generalists than anything else.

Yeah, they're T-shaped, right? Right? They might be deep in one area, but they're pretty broad. And it's also because they like to learn.

Yeah.

And they learn in different ways. So anyway, that's what I would say. A jack of all trades, guys, is better than a master of one. See you tomorrow.