How Finimize Founder Max Rofagha Quickly Built An E mail Community of Over 1M Subscribers

You've got Finimize right now, but before this, you, you had a startup before, you're a mentor at Techstars Startup Bootcamp. Uh, you even had the Forbes 30 Under 30, so quite a few accolades, right? So what were you doing before Finimize and how did it lead up to what you're doing now?

So I've basically been an entrepreneur all of my career. I've only ever worked in a job for 1 year. Um, funny enough, tried to do a spinoff with my boss. So I tried to do something entrepreneurial with him. Um, before this, I built an e-commerce business, um, based out of Zurich. And it was one of the largest, uh, actually the second largest e-commerce business in the country. We had 25% of all households shopping with us. Uh, and we're a very big fish in a small, but, uh, fairly wealthy pond. Um, and then I started Finimize.

That's, that's interesting. So talk about that background, cause it sounds like you've kind of been all over the place. So, I mean, right now you're in Berlin, company's in UK, you just mentioned Zurich. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, so I'm originally from Berlin. I'm actually just currently visiting home because we obviously have the luxury of doing remote work and been spending a lot of time in Switzerland. But yeah, our company is headquartered in London. And, you know, I think specifically now during this whole remote world, remote world setup, I've been fortunate to work remotely. So I've been trying to make the most out of that. Um, but other than that, you know, like, uh, lived in Zurich for 5 years, uh, started my— started the company there and then started the company in London. And, uh, to this day we're, we're headquartered there.

Got it. Okay, great. So let's talk about— I mean, um, so I want to focus this on, on Finimize because you— there's people— I mean, you see Substack, the rise of Substack. Everyone's starting newsletters right now. Everyone's talking about the creator economy, which we can double-click on. Um, but what led you to come up with this idea? I mean, you were doing this, this, uh, e-commerce site, right? And then, I mean, what led you to think about, hey, let's do a newsletter?

Yeah. So it's kind of an interesting story. So I, uh, I, I started Finimize because I had a problem myself, which was that I had started saving money and I wasn't sure what I should do with the money I saved. I knew that I shouldn't just leave it on my account, but I wasn't really sure what to do with it. And I found that when I went to go see a financial advisor, they were in the sales mode and they were just trying to sell me their own products. And that wasn't the right solution for me. And when I tried to educate and inform myself online, et cetera, I found it very, very difficult to wrap your head around it. It was quite convoluted. And I figured there's a better way of doing this and started off with actually a website that I built myself. Um, and the website was, let's explain to you in 3 minutes every day what's happening in the world of finance without using any jargon, and most importantly, explaining to you why the hell you should care. So why the hell should you care if interest rates go up or go down? And, uh, so I built a website myself. I had a bunch of like people I posted on Facebook, uh, back in the day when people were using Facebook. I posted, hey, do I know people who know a thing or two about finance who are interested in writing. I had like 5 people ultimately I ended up working with. They started producing all the content and I put it on my website. And lo and behold, when I launched the website, it was crickets. You know, nobody went on this website. And so I started emailing a bunch of people saying, hey, check out my website. And then I started putting little teasers into the email. Um, and I would like try click here to get the full article on the website. And what I found was that people would open the email, but they wouldn't go to the website. And so ultimately I decided, let's just follow the user's journey and the, and where the user's demand is. And let's just take the content from the website and also put it into the email. And that's what created the newsletter. So it was a very organic evolutionary process really, rather than me sitting down and saying, I want to start a newsletter. And the interesting thing, as you say, is like when we started this, newsletters were not the hot thing in town as they are now. You know, actually, funnily enough, when we were speaking to investors back then, people asked us, have you thought about maybe going on Snapchat rather than email? And I'm very happy that we didn't. Um, but that was the mindset back then. And now all of a sudden, you know, the, the email is, is, uh, is experiencing a renaissance moment, which, which is great. But that's, that's how we started as a newsletter. Got it.

I love that. So walk us through, I mean, I'm assuming the majority of your subscribers, your 1 million plus readers or so, are free. I mean, how do you guys make money?

So we make money on the one side with our free product where we have native advertising and brand partnerships. So we work with a whole range of brands. Most of them, I would say, are in the financial services space. And they are able to tell their brand story in a really, really intimate environment. And the way we kind of think about that is we have a very, very engaged community, not just an audience, but a real community. And we've built that and we, we rent it out. We rent that relationship out to a brand partner. And so we give a lot of care to which brand partner we're renting that relationship to. And then the second piece is we have a premium subscription. Where, uh, as an end user, if you're interested in finding out more, we have a whole library primarily currently in our apps and texts and audio, um, where we have thousands and thousands of content pieces and you can buy an annual subscription with us. And then we also have a third business, which is, um, financial institutions licensing our content. So you can come to us and say, hey, I'm interested in ABC. Here's what I'm trying to achieve, and we've built an API so that we can then push our content, text and audio, into your own environment so that you can have the Finimize experience for your own user base. And typically people do that because they either have come to the realization that the own content that they produce isn't up to par because reality is it's its own beast, or they just want to use our content because they understand that it will drive engagement, um, for their own users. So those are the 3 revenue streams that we have.

Got it. So I heard, I might've missed one. So, um, it sounds like there's kind of licensing your content out and then there's the ads and then you're charging like the SaaS fee, right?

Subscription. Exactly.

What does the subscription look like per month for like me?

Uh, so we, we, we have a monthly one that's, Around about $11, I believe, $12, uh, and we have an annual one which is $80. Got it. Okay.

Wow. Um, yeah, so I guess you start— and how long ago did you start this?

So we started the company at the end of 2016, and, uh, we start— we launched our subscription, uh, around about 18 months ago.

Got it.

Okay.

So So how, I mean, I guess, how are you guys, it sounds like a lot of hand-to-hand combat in the beginning, right? But growing the newsletter, I forgot how I heard about you guys. I don't know if I read it somewhere or maybe I saw an ad, but how are you guys growing primarily right now?

Yeah, you probably didn't see an ad because we have, on our newsletter, we have never done any significant paid marketing. It's all been through non-paid channels. We grew a lot through We had a very, very successful campus ambassador program. We had a referral, or we have, we continue to have, and we have a referral program and we did a lot of partnerships where we did barter deals. Um, and then on this, on the app side, we, we do a lot of ads, paid ads, um, because there we have the subscription and it makes sense from a cashflow point of view that we basically get recoup our investment right away as soon as someone buys a subscription.

Got it.

So it's a combination really. The marketing mix is quite broad.

Got it. And I mean, when I think about like Morning Brew or The Hustle, I know they spend money on paid ads. So is that a consideration for you guys down the road?

Um, we, we, we likely will explore it. Um, for sure. Uh, I think I would say like our, our biggest focus right now is on growing our subscription, which Like I said, it's primarily on mobile. And that's worked pretty well. You know, we're in the US, we're in the top 15 highest grossing finance apps. In the UK, in the top 2. We've ranked number 1 in 41 countries, like around about a fifth of the world.

Yeah.

So that's where we're seeing a huge success and that's where we're focusing on. But yes, we 100% will also continue to grow the newsletter both through Non-paid and also through paid. I think that will also become part of the marketing mix.

Got it. So I've had the co-founders of the Morning Brew newsletter on this podcast, actually even The Hustle as well, Sam Parr. And so, you know, the writers that you have, I mean, these are former— some of them are former employees of Goldman Sachs, Barclays, and others, right? So I asked this question and I got a really good answer when I asked, I think it was Alex, and I was like, so how do you recruit great writers? And so one of his tests is like, You know, he says, hey, like, why didn't you write like a 150-word piece on a, like a late, like a recent trend? And then, um, basically from that you can see, you know, how their voice is and if they're, if they got it or not. Right. So how do you go about finding the best writers?

Yeah. So I think there's a pretty big distinction between us and other newsletters out there, um, in the sense that, uh, we hire people to produce the content because we're in this vertical finance. We care immensely about the quality of and the expertise that they bring. And so we tend to not hire journalists, we tend to hire analysts. And so we usually get people, like you said, from top-tier financial institutions who have anywhere between sort of 6 to more than 10 years of experience in being an analyst. And for us, I think the key point in really understanding whether they could be a good fit is whether they can explain a really complicated financial topic in the length of our story, which is around about 300 to 350 words. And then the key point, and this for us is the most important piece of a story, is the why should you care? And that's part of the reason also why we hire analysts, because what we find is that Explaining, all right, well, the Fed raised interest rates, here's what's happened. I think there's a decent amount of people who can do that. Explaining then why you as a retail investor should care about this, all of a sudden you really, really, really filter out a lot of candidates. And even people who've worked in banks and financial institutions, a lot of the times they really struggle to explain that to you. It might sound bizarre, but that for us is really the litmus test Can you explain to me not only what's happened, but most importantly, why should I care? How does this affect me? Because that's the hard question, because it requires you to actually connect the dots and really have a macro understanding of how everything's connected. And that, I think, is a real— is a real showcase that you understand what you're talking about.

That makes sense. And so You know, I'm looking at, I mean, you know, went from e-commerce side to, you know, focusing on finance, right? I'm wondering what the connection is and kind of what the overall long-term vision for you is.

Yeah, that's a good question. I often ask myself that as well, uh, 'cause, 'cause I remember when I was in school, I was looking, or at university really, I was looking at sort of career paths and I, and I knew retail wasn't for me and I kind of knew finance wasn't for me. And then I ended up doing retail and now finance. I think at the end of the day, I try to go where I find something that I feel passionate about and that I'm willing to really dedicate my life to. And it happened to be that, and I'm a huge believer in this whole notion of going with the flow and following your intuition. And there's that really famous Steve Jobs commencement speech, which is very cliché of me to quote, but where he talks about connect the dots in hindsight. And I think in my case, I'm hoping that I will be able to connect the dots in hindsight, because like I said, I didn't plan to go into retail. I didn't plan to go into finance. I kind of fell into it and I developed a passion while I fell into it. Got it.

Is part of it to kind of scratch your own itch too with finance? Because it's like being because everyone speaks so much jargon. I'm just curious.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, like I said, I started Finimize because of this personal experience where I felt really frustrated with how difficult it was to really wrap your head around financial topics. Um, and I think the other thing that I, that I really love is building product and building consumer-facing brands. So, so to come to your question around, you know, where, where do I see myself going? Like, I would probably not do a B2B company because I get a certain kick out of seeing, you know, the fact that you use our product is exciting. And, and I think, uh, then hearing from people how it's changed their lives and reading the reviews in the App Store, like how it's really changed people's investing behaviors, I think that's really, really exciting for me. And, and I think that's what you get in this B2C space.

That's awesome. So, I mean, Let's talk about the creator economy, because what you're doing is, is, I mean, it's at a bigger scale, right? So, I mean, we've talked about Substack, we talked about, you know, you can talk about OnlyFans, Patreon, you know, Facebook getting involved with like, you know, Clubhouse ripoffs and all that, right? And then now you've got Apple and Spotify. So it's, it's getting crazier and crazier. So what are your thoughts overall on the creator economy? Where do you see it going?

So I, I think the creator economy is one of the most exciting spaces, um, and we're seeing really in front of our eyes an entire industry developing. Um, so you mentioned a couple, like Patreon, obviously. I think the way that they think of themselves is like they're building the Stripe of the creator economy. Um, and if you think about it like that, like, what are all the different tools? Like, who's building the CRM for the creators? Who's built— building customer service for the creators? Like, all All of the things that we see, whether it's like a Stripe, a Zendesk, um, a Pipedrive, Salesforce, like all of these big companies, I think we're going to see being built for the creator economy as completely new companies. And you're going to see multi, multi-billion dollar companies being built around this because obviously this, uh, this, this massive surge in creators coming, coming to the market. And I think we're just really scratching the surface with tools like Substack and All these tools that are really empowering the creator. And I think that's the first stepping stone. And the second stepping stone is really this whole ecosystem around that transition from, hey, I'm a creator to, hey, I'm a company. And I think today we're starting to see a lot of tools that help creators. And I think the next phase will be how do, how do we help creators turn and transition into real companies? And what are the tools that they need? Credit cards is another thing that, that I think I saw a really awesome company. I forget the name, unfortunately. Um, they're building a credit card for the creators and they, uh, they don't look at your credit score. They look at your followers. They look at your engagement. It's a completely new canvas where everything that we see being built today is going to be rebuilt on the creator canvas. And I think that's super exciting.

That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, to your point, you know, Substack is basically, you know, email for creators, right? And it's basically X or Y for creators. And so CRM for creators too, right? Is there even a CRM for creators right now? No, right?

No, I'm actually, funnily enough, I'm trying to convince one of my friends who I think would build an amazing one to build one. Um, but there isn't, there isn't one. And I think it's going to be an incredible opportunity.

That's fascinating. Yeah.

Wow.

That's big. I mean, that's getting my ideas going as well. Let me know, let me know if he ends up doing it. So maybe I can invest too.

Uh-huh.

So, um, I guess, are there any specific tools or trends that you're excited about because you're looking into this space? So we kind of touched upon some, but I'm just wondering, like, what are some kind of under-the-radar type tools that I might have— I might not have heard of?

That's a good question. I think, like I said, probably the best example is this credit card that looks at your likes, etc., rather than your credit score. That's one. I know that there's a lot of companies that are looking at kind of the, the Linktree experience.

Yeah.

But, but basically sort of building it, building an own ecosystem around that. So like, you know, Linktree obviously has built a phenomenal, um, business out of a very, very simple product. Uh, and I, and I'm seeing a lot of iterations of that. Um, those would probably be off the top of my head, a couple of, a couple of sort of use cases that, that, that, uh, that I've come across.

That's super smart. So those of you listening right now, you can easily go to like a microacquire.com and there's a lot of these tools being sold right now. and you can just rebrand it because there's some email, there's some email tools I've seen and some CRMs up there. Just rebrand it for creators, create a great team around it, good to go.

So exactly. And, and, and, and I think just really looking at, you know, what would— if, if you were to build a business today, you know, what would be the equivalent of what AWS did for servers? Like, what would be the equivalent for creators? Like, all of these analogies, I think that's the beauty of it. Like, they're you can really assess this by looking at analogies of like the, the Web 2.0 kind of world and seeing like, all right, so what would be the equivalent in a creator economy? Uh, and so I think that's, that's, that's how I would approach it at least.

Got it. I love that. All right. So we talked about the creator economy. I want to touch upon kind of, um, so one of the questions I always ask is what is your favorite business book? But it sounds like you're reading multiple books right now. So feel free to let loose.

So I, so I injured my foot, unfortunately, and I tore all my ligaments. And as a result, I've been, I've been stuck on the couch, and I've been reading a lot. And so I've been— I read most recently, I read the autobiography of Michael Bloomberg. I thought that was really interesting to hear because he started the business at like 39 or something like that. And typically when you hear these like entrepreneurial stories, it's You know, Mark Zuckerberg was like 19 or something. I think Bezos was like 33. But you rarely hear about like later on. And I think that was kind of an, I guess, an inspiration, you know, like as an entrepreneur, you have a longer shelf life than many people would lead you to believe. Another book I read that I really loved was the autobiography of Michael Ovitz, the founder of CAA talent agency. amazing journey and some really, really cool stories from Hollywood, et cetera. Uh, and then I, and then most recently I read a book, which I think everybody should read. It's, um, called Deep Work, Deep Work.

Cal Newport.

And it's exactly. And, uh, and I read it in like, uh, over a weekend, I was completely glued to it. I thought it was super interesting and it's, it's really affected my life and I've shared the way of my work life and how I try to structure my day. Uh, and I've shared a lot of learnings from the book with our team, and I'm trying to encourage them to, to take it on. Uh, you know, small things that I think will, will help you focus. Um, so great, great, great, great read.

Got it. So, and so on the biographies, because some biographies are freaking thick, right? So did you, did you actually get the physical book or the audiobook?

I always get the physical because I coming back to this whole concept of deep work, if it's an audio or if it's Kindle or whatever, I just feel a little bit distracted. I just bought actually the Warren Buffett biography called Snowball. And I was surprised how thick that thing is. So that's going to take some time. Yeah. But yeah, I always go for physical copy.

So I'm looking at Amazon right now. So did you get Bloomberg by Bloomberg or The Many Lives of Michael Bloomberg? Which one was it?

Bloomberg by Bloomberg, I believe it was. Okay. Got it.

Got it. Okay, amazing.

And we, funnily enough, it's, uh, I told one of our, one of our, uh, team members, he was a managing editor at Bloomberg, uh, he worked there for 10 years, and when I told him that I read the book, he was like, oh, like, that's the book that everybody has to read when they join Bloomberg. So for him, it was kind of like sort of a textbook, kind of a bit boring kind of vibe, um, so he was surprised that I was reading it, but I loved it. I thought it was really good, and it's a pretty quick read as well.

That's fascinating. All right. Well, you know, it's, uh, he actually has a new book coming out on August 15th. I don't know if you knew that.

No, I didn't. All right.

Amazon's telling me right now. So yeah, it's $45. Enjoy.

Cool.

Final question from my side, Max. Uh, what is your favorite business tool?

Um, I probably will give you an answer that a lot of people have, uh, which is Um, Notion. I do a lot of stuff in Notion, uh, just because it's so versatile as a tool. I've tried a lot of different tasks, task managers, note-takers, et cetera. The only one that I really seem to be sticking to is, uh, is Notion.

You know what's fascinating? I mean, some people's Notion setups are insane, right? We actually even hired—

Yeah. I'm not like that. I've seen people use it and I'm like, damn, that, that's advanced. I'm, I'm, I'm pretty basic with Yeah, I, I am too.

Like, it's, um, I, I'm probably spending too much money on note-taking tools, but we use Notion for like our internal wiki, probably similar to you, and then maybe like a daily to-do. But then I use Roam for like, you know, for like deep thinking, right? Or like a second brain. And then I use Evernote for like web clipping. So I'm paying for all these tools. I don't know if you're the same way.

I, I started looking at Roam, but it's one of those things I think I'd be interested if that was the case for you, where you really have to sit down and dedicate time To getting it set up. It's not the kind of thing where like in 5 minutes you're set up and then you can start using it.

You know what I mean? So what I'll say is, um, you know, I was watching YouTube videos for Notion. I was like, holy shit, this is too much work. Right. But then on the Roam Research ones where I watched the videos, I was like, oh, this is manageable. It's not that hard. And so now that I have it set, it maybe took me like, like 30 minutes, an hour to set it up. And then now when I'm reading, like I'm actually adding in like a lot of these links and I'm building that network. So I'm finding that helpful. Yeah.

So it took you 30 minutes to set it up?

30 minutes to an hour. So I would watch the videos first on like 2x or 1.5 on YouTube. And then there's this one guy that just shows like his setup. I'm like, okay, that's freaking perfect for me. That's all I need. But like the Notion stuff is like, there's like this Kanban board. It looks like a sauna. I'm just like, I don't know what to do with it.

So yeah. Yeah. That's, I would say that's the one thing about Notion. A, it's a bit slow. Um, but B, it's, Tries to do a lot of different things and that can be overwhelming.

Totally. Well, Max, this has been great. What's the best way for people to find you online?

Uh, me personally on Twitter, um, you can type in Max Raffaga or my handle is Whole Earth Web, Whole Earth Web. Um, and then you can sign up for our newsletter for free on fitnomize.com or download our apps in Play Store and App Store.

Yeah. Get, get the apps, everyone. Um, he's not paying me to say this. Go check it out. It's great. It's free. Uh, Max, thanks so much for doing this.

Thank you very much.

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