Most Agencies Are Flat. Here's Why Neil's Is Still Growing

So Will Reynolds is saying that running a business is lonely because we are so often dishonest about how our businesses are doing. Agency owners, instead of asking how's business, lead with things like things are tough and be honest about why. That's funny. Neil likes asking how's business a lot. This will give the person on the other side the ability to be real with you too, instead of the fake game of good. You and they say good, even though both of you are struggling to make payroll. I'm saying this because I have had a lot of tough conversations with agency owners under $2 million And they are looking for a place for their people, but they are oftentimes kind of over it. COVID took a lot out of us. Then AI is a tsunami that they can't swim through, that many can't swim through. Be brave enough to be honest. When people say Siu must be killing it, I'm like, my popularity on LinkedIn ain't correlated to my bank account, dog.

Dog.

And we're fine, but definitely not killing it. Definitely not killing it. Been flat for 3, 4 years. I'll take flat given the environment. But just when one thing starts taking off, another takes a hit. Okay, now it's your turn. You won't want to post about it publicly, but if you do, you are allowing hundreds of other small business owners to not feel alone. I know it can be hard to post it publicly, but honestly, a lot of people need to see the reality of businesses right now, or business right now, not just the loudest voices on these internet streets. If you can't do that, promise me this: in private, when people ask you how your business is doing, be honest, and you'll be surprised. After saying that to a few people, you'll feel a lot less alone. And when you stop telling people everything is great, which is not true, they are less incentivized to help you because you told them you're doing great. Being honest keeps more eyes and ears on the streets to send you leads and opportunities.

Yeah, I think the environment's been tough and I think he nailed it. It's been roughly 3 to 4 years where it's been tough. I would say somewhere around 2022 is when things started to turn and become harder and harder. We've experienced it. We haven't seen a downturn like this for a long time. I've been in business for quite a while. I've never seen a downturn this long. I know there's many more people who have been in business longer than me and they may have seen longer downturns. We're seeing it in a lot of different sectors, but not every sector. And when I look at marketing in specific, we used to grow at some cases 100+% a year, literally 100%+ a year at scale, right? I'm not talking about $1 million in revenue or $10 million in revenue. I'm talking about more than that. And we were growing over 100% a year. We're still growing organically. We're also growing by M&A as well, which helps, but organically we're growing. We're growing even faster because we do M&A, but growth definitely has slowed down. And if I had to give the reason on why we're growing in this market, I would say it comes down to one big reason. For us, it's been international expansion. If you're really tiny in a lot of countries like, I don't know, India or United Kingdom or Germany, whatever it may be. And I'm talking about us roughly, call it 4 years ago. When we were starting off in a lot of these countries, we were starting from a base of zero. In a good economy or bad economy, it's easier to grow when you're at zero because growth can only go up. You can't go more down. So for us, by being global, we are able to add revenue And we started expanding when the market was bad or the economy was bad, which created opportunities for us because a lot of people were pulling out or laying people off. So we were able to recruit really good people that would've been harder for us to recruit during good times. And I would say that's probably the number one reason we've grown is just international expansion. That's helped on the organic side combined with, you know, M&A.

I have some thoughts here and you'll probably disagree with them maybe. And then we can talk about another topic because I met up with— we should talk about something next. It's one of the best parts of being a founder and it's not what really people think. And I think you're going to have some stories that you can share with this too, which we'll get to in a second. But my take on this one, because here's the thing, Neil, everything you just said, Remember, Will said he's been flat for the last 4 or 5 years. You have not been flat even organically. Just so everyone knows too, organic growth means that you're not growing through mergers and acquisitions. You're growing through on your own terms as you know, you're the current business that you have, right? Inorganic means that you know you're buying other businesses and you're kind of stacking revenue on. That's that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing too, right? There's just different terms here. So just to be clear, Neil, the last four or five years you have grown both. Organically and inorganically, correct? You haven't been flat at all.

Correct.

Okay, great. So one thing I'll say is, you know, obviously I've shared, you know, maybe in 2021 or so when there was a— there's a lot going on, it's a very hot environment. That's when I kind of stepped away from the business and things didn't go well, right? Things actually went downwards, right? For, I would say, the next 2 years or so, right? Until I stepped back into the business. Now, I'm not going to say I'm amazing. I would just say that Founders do have— Jason Cohen from WP Engine likes to say that the founders, Neil's a founder, I'm a founder, we have this invisible hammer where you can just make things happen and move very quickly. And so, you know, I would say that we, since I stepped back into the business, we have not been flat, right? We have been growing. The thing that I have noticed, and Neil, I think you can maybe share some stories as well, is that the other agencies that seem to be like last year, I think we had talked about an agency where we You know, we're looking at just acquiring them for free, basically, right? Recently, you told me about another one where it would not have been like a big cash outlay, but it would have been a lot of work. So I think we're seeing more and more of that happen right now. Now, on the flip side of this, I'm also seeing this happen with larger agencies. It's like, from a recruiting standpoint, like, I'm like, why do all these executives want to leave these large agencies? Because after this, Neil, I'm going to go to lunch. And then at the mall, with a guy that we're trying to recruit, right? And he's like, he understands a lot of things, not just from an agency standpoint, but from an AI standpoint too. And so I would just say, forget the AI piece for a moment. As long as you're adaptable and as long as you move quickly, I don't think, like, sure, we can say it's been a tough environment and I do think it is. It's been a tougher environment for sure, but I believe that tough times create strong people and I'm not trying to dismiss that, right? And I'm saying, yes, it is hard. Agencies are doing more poorly than before right now, But this is a time for you to be able to step up and stand out versus the rest, right? Because when Neil's up versus the holding companies, I believe that he wins deals because they're more creative, they're more adaptable, and they stand out. And people hire agencies to be creative, to be proactive, right? To be someone that you can lean on. And so most agencies don't do that. Remember a few weeks ago, Neil, I talked about how much I hate some of these agencies that are just like, they put more work on your plate and they expect you to just pay them. And so As long as you're someone that takes things off people's plate, then I think you're going to be okay as an agency because I'll tell you, like, we haven't been flat since 2023. It's been strong organic growth.

It's, but I'm assuming some things on your end you've declined. You're probably making up organic growth in other sectors.

Correct.

But the original core business, I would say maybe growing a little bit, maybe flat, maybe declining a little bit, but the growth isn't there from the original business. If you look at what Will Reynolds is talking about, a lot of people are still doing the same thing that they're doing 4 or 5 years ago. And I believe that's why a lot of these people are seeing decline in addition to the economy, right? Because—

Remember what Albert Einstein said?

What? I have no idea what he said.

Okay, so expecting change from doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah.

Yeah, I believe you. And people, you know, are like, oh, it's not growing. Things are bad. And I agree, things are bad, but people need to adapt and try to figure out how to make them better during bad times. And we typically don't see that.

All right. So I wanted to take a moment to tell you about my podcast co-host Neil's agency called NP Digital. And they work with a whole host of global companies or global organizations Also, Neil has SEO tools such as Ubersuggest and AnswerThePublic. All you have to do is go to npdigital.com to learn more, and we'll see you on the other side. You know what I'll say, Neil? I saw a video. I don't know if you saw this video, but there's this guy on YouTube. So this video got 5.1 million views, and it somehow came across me, right? So his face is disfigured, right? Like, I think some fire happened, and like, he doesn't have— like, his fingers are gone too. Did you see that video? Like, it stumbled across me. I felt so compelled to actually switch over my account and comment. And what do you think my comment was? My comment was like, dude, this is amazing. You should keep posting, right? Because the way he started the video was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm done with life, blah, blah, blah, right? And he starts the video off like, I'm tired of this. I don't want to do this anymore. And like, dude, it burns everywhere. Like very disfigured. Like you can barely see his eyes, right? And he's like, look, I don't even have my hand anymore, right? And he's like, but you know what? F that. I'm going to keep going. And that is the same thing I would tell anybody that is struggling right now. It is these moments that actually shape you into a much stronger character and you have good stories to tell. Because I remember when Neil, when I was going through these tough times in 2021, Neil was the first one to call me as a friend to say, hey, I think you should bankrupt it. And that was the logical thing to do. But I told Neil at the time, I was like, hey dude, if I keep going and it turns out well in the long term, that's going to be a good story to tell and I'm going to be much stronger. And I never told my dad this story until recently. He's like, why didn't you tell mom and dad— mom and me? I'm like, why the hell would I tell you guys? Like, you guys are just stressed. It's better to tell you guys now. And he's like, so are you stronger now? You're stronger now, huh? I'm like, fuck yeah, I'm stronger, right? So I think this is a good moment. Like, if you're struggling right now, like, how do you double down? How do you cut costs? How do you become a lot more resilient? How do you become more adaptable? How do you go out and get business on your own, right? This is the chance for you to show how good you are as a founder, as a leader.

Dude, I'm with you. And I think what we're seeing right now is there's no one way to skin a cat. You can do things different ways. You just got to figure out what works for you. But most importantly, you need to try to be creative and try to actually solve your problems and be proactive instead. And I'm not saying this is what people are doing on LinkedIn, but you can vent and that's fine. And you can talk to people how things are hard.

Yeah.

But at the same time, and I wouldn't say these people are complaining, just to be clear here, but continually talking about how things are bad doesn't solve the problem. You need to actually focus on figuring out a solution and spend the majority of your time there. And I'm not saying it's easy and sometimes you won't be able to, but that's where you need to be focusing most of your efforts on.

Yeah. And I think the last thing I'll say about this is like, You know, if it is hard, what a blessing for you to be able to go through this crucible, right? You might think, F that right now, but when I look back on it, I look at all the struggles that Neil's gone through, all the struggles that I've gone through, it's shaped us into who we are today. And think about it, like the reason how companies go from, you know, $0 to $100K to $1 million to $10 million to $100 million to $1 billion, you know, or even beyond that, is because these people continue to sit through the mud and they continue to wade through the mud. And one of my favorite quotes is from Winston Churchill, if you're going through hell, keep going, right? And we're not saying you're going to war or anything like that right now. There's much worse situations, but trust me, this situation that you're in right now, it has been conquered before and we believe that you can conquer it as well. So we'll just leave it at that.

Yep.

Okay. So on a more positive note, Neil, so I want you to share some stories around this too, but I met with an ex-employee yesterday. So he started an agency and it's doing like, let's just call it $1 million, $1.5 million, something like that, right? And, um, you know, my whole thing is this is one of the best parts of being a founder. Um, and this is not what most people think. It's like when you see people that have worked with you before and they've gone on and they're doing their own things, like we have another guy that I think his agency is doing like maybe $4 million a year right now. And we still keep in touch. I love keeping in touch with these people. And then, you know, they're, they're like to see them blossom on their own and to see the work, the hard work. The challenge that they've had to go through to get there. It doesn't matter if they're like an executive of another company right now. Like, I still keep in touch with these people. But I think that's our way and your way of— and I'm saying you to the listener right now, it's your way of paying it forward, right? Because the guy yesterday, like, he gave me a lot of credit. He was like, you know, you did all these things, you set up the culture. Like, I realized like everything that I might have disagreed with at the moment, like, I understand why you did it. And it's a very lonely thing, right? To Will Reynolds' point. And so, but I'm like, dude, don't even give me the credit. It was you. Look at you now, right? And so, I don't know, that's like one of those fuzzy things, but it's an un— like, these benefits people don't really talk about. So, I'm curious to hear about some from your side.

I don't know, dude. For me, most of the people I hang around with, including you and us, I think a lot of this, When I was younger, I thought it was kind of weak, but I changed my tune on that over the years. I just think a lot of the people don't have the right mindset, and I think mindset has a lot to do with a lot of this stuff and succeeding in life and progressing and pushing forward and getting through tough times and figuring things out. But for some reason, I don't know what it is, I think mindset is Really challenging for a lot of people. People know how to deal with the ups, they don't know how to deal with the downs.

Yep. And actually, the guy I was with yesterday, he's like, dude, I've learned that business is actually the best personal growth machine. So Neil has his own way of learning. I have my own way of learning as well. But one thing we can agree upon when it comes to personal growth is business is the best. Because if you can't beat this level, you don't get to go to the next level. It's just what it is. Yeah.

And for someone else, it could be business, it could be something else, but—

Something creative.

Yeah, something creative. Just challenge yourself and don't give up. And I think that is really tough. I know people don't like showing kids Instagram. They say social media is really bad. My daughter's in gymnastics and cheer. So there's this video clip of this father-daughter duo, and I think they own a cheer company. Kid is really young, maybe around my daughter's age, maybe a little bit younger. She does stuff that maybe people who are 6, 7 years older are doing when it comes to cheer. And you can see her crying and being fed up and the dad motivating her. And I show a lot of those clips from that specific family to my daughter. And I was just like, you see, not everything's easy. It doesn't matter if you think it's easy from the outside and that they're great. Look at the challenges they went through. Look at how they keep pushing through. And having that mentality of just don't expect everything to go your way. Don't expect things to go easy. You just got to keep pushing because when you push and people have to experience this, when you actually solve the problem or get to where you want to be, or even partially there, it feels really good. You get a real strong sense of accomplishment and that feeling. You know, I don't do drugs. I've never really done drugs or anything like that other than, you know, your Tylenols or whatever that you take when you have a headache. But I think, and I don't know for certain, but I believe it's like a high of someone being on a drug, right? And I feel that way when I accomplish things or close some big business deals or hit new milestones. That hit that you get, I think, is a really amazing feeling. And by no means, I'm not trying to tell people to go do drugs or anything like that, but I'm just trying to relate it like, you know how people say they get high?

Yeah.

I don't know what high is like, but for me, when I accomplish something in business, it's a version of high, or at least I believe it is.

So when I was younger, I did try some different drugs and I will tell you what it feels like, Neil. So you're correct. Okay. A business win is like hitting a 3-pointer when you're playing basketball, right? Or like you hit a nice shot when you're playing tennis. It's also the same thing as like, you know, the high from a drug, right? They're all kind of the same thing at the end of the day. And you want to continue to get that high over and over and over, right? And so you should chase the right highs, not the wrong highs, is part of what I'm interpreting from this as well, Neil.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So that is it for today, and we will see you tomorrow.