Travis Kalanick's founder rule, why pushed kids lose, & what excellence really costs
In this informal, interview‑style conversation, host Eric Siu and guest Neil Patel riff on a recent Travis Kalanick podcast clip and weave together a wide‑ranging discussion about entrepreneurship, co‑founder dynamics, venture‑capital relationships, scaling through M&A, first‑principles problem solving, the physical and mental costs of high performance, and parenting philosophies around early specialization. They contrast the "driver" (founder who pushes) versus "pusher" roles, note the rarity of two true drivers in a founding team, and reference Y Combinator’s preference for 2‑3 founders. They critique VC involvement (e.g., Benchmark, Bill Gurley) and argue that founders should stay deeply involved. The dialogue moves to operational challenges of handling multiple acquisitions, using reverse first‑principles thinking to break down deal execution, and likens the process to progressive strength training. The conversation then shifts to fitness, protein intake, and the allure of performance‑enhancing peptides, before exploring a study of 34,000 elite performers that shows early‑specialized prodigies often plateau while broader‑based learners become top‑1% adults. Neil shares his parenting rule: push a child a few times if they dislike an activity, then stop if resistance persists, emphasizing balanced development over forced excellence. They conclude by defining excellence as the capacity to endure pain and continuously improve, acknowledging trade‑offs in every life decision. The episode also includes a brief ad for SingleGrain.
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All right. So, Neil, I was in Arizona with some of our mutual friends this week. And, you know, we were talking about a couple of things. And, you know, did you see that podcast interview with Travis Kalanick with David Senra?
I did not. Was that the one where he was— he badmouthed VCs kind of?
Yes, yes, yes.
So the 1%. So I saw the clip of that.
Yeah. Yeah. So Travis Kalanick, co-founder of Uber. So he had a conversation with David Senra, who does The Founders Podcast, and this one's called David Senra. But anyway, so There's a couple lines in there that I think stick out that I think we can react to. He did actually say, I'll tell you one thing, don't put money into bench— don't let Benchmark invest in you, right? Or like Bill Gurley, like he's looking, he's talking about VCs, he's badmouthing them because he got kicked out of his company because of that. Now that has nothing to do with us, but I do want to talk about the true lifestyle of an entrepreneur. And one of our mutual friends, we're— I spent like 9 hours playing tennis Monday through Wednesday, right? And we're just like, dude, Like at the end of the day, one of the main things is the founder has to be involved, right? And the funny thing is I think about you for a moment, right? Like I think about one of our mutual friends. So he was out of the company for 2 years or so, okay? And when he was out of the company, his CEO was alone. He basically had like dad was there, right? But when he came back in, it's almost like mom came back, right? And when mom came back and you split the load, the company was able to move forward like that. I think about you, I look at you, even though you don't really have a title at your company, I still look at you as the CEO because you're driving things. But I'm not the CEO. Whatever. You look at Elon Musk, he's not really the CEO, right? Like he's driving things. And remember, long time ago when, when, when he put money into Tesla, Elon said, I don't want to be the CEO. He's like, I never want to be the CEO, right? And then he realized to get things done, you have to have the CEO title, right? And then he's driving things that way. And he's not like a typical CEO. You'd agree with that, right?
No, he's not a typical CEO.
Yeah. So I still like, despite you not having a title, you drive things like a CEO. And I think Mike Kamo, who's your co-founder, you both are the drivers, right? And I think it's so important to have, it's so helpful to have a co-founder there because when you only have one driver, right? It's a lot more difficult when you don't have mom and dad both there.
Yeah, that's why Y Combinator typically only invests in 3 people founding teams or 2, but it's either 2 or 3. I haven't really, there must be some examples, but Y Combinator usually doesn't invest in a one-person-led or one-person founding team.
Yeah, you know what though? What's interesting is, I forgot, I was listening to another podcast recently and it was like, I think it was a16z. I think it was, it might've been Ben Horowitz talking about this, right? What they've noticed is this, you might have 2 co-founders, you might have a technical co-founder and a founder, right? The founder might be more sales-led, marketing-led, and you have the product person. But usually what happens there is only one of them is the true driver. You usually don't have 2 drivers in a company, right? One of our mutual friends, I would say both of them are drivers. I look at you and Mike, Yeah. I would say both of you are drivers. It's actually fairly rare to have both of the co-founders being drivers, and you call it the pusher.
Yeah, I agree with you. So it's semantics here, but I think we're speaking the same thing. I look at it as I don't drive, I push, and—
It's the same thing.
A real-life example of this, or let's go back to driving. The reason I don't consider myself a driver is And even Mike Kamo, my co-founder, we genuinely don't run the business. The CEO runs everything. He knows so much more about the business than us. I would be in trouble without him, being really honest. Although at this point we have a big enough executive team. I'm not saying the CEO could be easily replaced. I don't agree with that.
Yep.
But he has built a really solid team underneath him. And he has told me if something happens to him, Here are the few people who should help run the business. He's been very explicit about that.
Yep.
When I look at Mike Camo and I, I would say we're more pushers than anything else. And I don't think Mike knows what I do on a daily basis, Mike Camo. My CEO's also named Mike, so just trying to reduce confusion here. And I also don't know what my co-founder does on a daily basis. We have ideas of what we're focusing on.
Yep.
But we're also in a point in our career where I don't think we're really grinders anymore. I don't have it in me to really grind it out. And I'll give you an example with Fuse, you know, Kellen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You met up with Kellen, we did dinner together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Kellen and I were talking about doing a business together. They would fund it. We would end up creating a company that would help automate a lot of the work that marketing agencies are doing. He was down to fund it. I would own a large chunk of it. If I wanted a bigger chunk, I would just put in some of the money that would be raised. Let's call it a $10 million round. They're willing to put in $7 million of it, roughly. I'm speaking on their behalf, but that's roughly what they would've put in for a first round for 20%. So $10 million, you lose 20%. So call it $40 million pre-money valuation, $50 million post.
Yep.
And I remember I was walking up and down in my driveway, My son was kicking the soccer ball to me and—
And you were ignoring it? I'm just kidding.
The soccer ball—
I'm kidding.
Well, I was half paying attention. I tend to kick the soccer ball with him probably like 4 or 5 times a week. I don't like when my daughter gets involved playing soccer with us. I know that sounds really bad to say. I love my daughter, but my son and I do stuff we're not supposed to do. Like, let's kick the soccer ball on the roof and see if we can get it stuck. And like, we'll break like shingles on the roof and do stuff that you're not supposed to do. But I have fun just messing around and like, let's kick the soccer ball into our balcony and like, we'll break furniture and pots. And I know that's a really bad example and we're wasting thousands of dollars, but I'm really bonding with my son and we're having a blast.
Yeah.
But I'm talking with him as I'm kicking the ball with my son. And I'm like, I'm telling him like, or I'm asking him like, what's required of me? And he's breaking down usually what people do in these kinds of roles. And I'm like, dude, I don't know if this is for me. And he's like, why not? I got to kind of answer to someone because I have investors, even though I'm an LP in his fund. Yep.
Well, it's work.
Yeah. So I was just like, I got to sign up for all this kind of work? And I'm like, this isn't me. And he was just laughing. He's just like, I know, but he's like, it's a big opportunity. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, he's like, I respect it. And I'm like, look, dude, I don't mind writing you checks for your venture fund and you guys can invest my money in other places. Like, They do with a lot of other investors. I don't want to do the work.
But here's a side thing, right? So you've heard of the story before where there's a fisherman in Alaska. He's very successful, right? He's fishing all these fish. And then an investor comes up and is like, dude, let me invest in your— let's build this into a company, right? And the fisherman's like, well, why do I need that? Well, what we're going to do is we're going to expand and then we're going to, we're going to build this into a huge multibillion-dollar operation, right? And then the fisherman's like, well, then what am I going to do after that? Right? He's like, well, then you can, do what you're doing, like you can chill and you can catch fish every day. He's like, well, I'm already doing that right now, right? So the point is you've already worked, and this is not saying don't work hard. Like Neil's already paid his dues, right? He's already worked very hard. He's just not in that season anymore. We have different seasons of entrepreneurship. But going back to this, if we think about, when I think about driver, pusher, at the end of the day, the reason why I think the founder is so important is because the founder is naturally incentivized to care the most. And that's because you, naturally you have a big chunk of the company, right?
Yeah.
And so of course you're going to push the most, of course you're going to drive. And our mutual friend was talking about another friend that we knew, and we've talked about this before, like we have a lot of people that, you know, they will hire someone and then get out of their way completely. And I think that's one of the biggest fallacies I think in entrepreneurship, because we know someone on Twitter that likes to talk about how he owns all these different businesses and all that, right? And not even a he, or it could be a she as well, But to say you're going to sit out of the business and not push, I think is broken. And the reason why I'm even bringing this up right now, because we're talking about that clip, right? So this is what Travis Kalanick says. The lifestyle of an entrepreneur at its core is I can take more pain than the other guy and I'll prove it. There's a zen that can happen when a warrior has fought for a long time. You can get used to it, right? And so by the way, if you and I are put through poo-poo moments right now, we deal with them pretty well, right? Unless someone tries to screw you over on like, you know, maybe you're buying something at a store. That's a different story.
Then you lose your stuff. So.
Yeah.
Yeah, I actually get upset on that end, but normally I have a really, I don't ever have a temper or get upset. I used to as a kid, but I do get upset when someone tries to pull one on me and screw me over. But you were spot on to go back to the pusher and the driver. I went through this this week because when we look at M&A at my company, it's 2 deals a year is no problem. Yeah. When you start doing 3, 4, 5, 6 deals a year, it puts a lot of burden on the team and it makes more work on the integration and it's just harder, especially if you do them in the same regions. But right now I have an LOI out for a company in Latin America, which I think will go through. We have terms agreed upon in one company in the United States. Which I think will go through. We're in negotiation with one company in France, and we've already discussed pricing and everything, and they want to sell to us. So I think if we want it, it would go through. There's one in Germany that I want, my team wants, but how many deals can you end up doing? And we think that one's probably one of the better ones. And then there's another one in the US. that has some hair on it, but they work with our ideal customers in a service that we don't do a ton of, but the business isn't growing like a hockey stick, but you combine both, they work with our ideal customers, they don't sell all the services we sell, we only sell— You don't buy the growth. Yeah, we can make the math work out on that. So roughly, I don't know how many of them will go through, but it's more than 2. And you're talking about in a period of 6 months where maybe 3 on the low end, 5 on the high end, right? And I'm still building the pipe, but I keep telling my team, I'm like, you can do it, right? Why not? And I keep pushing them. And I remember them saying, 2, we don't need to do more than 2 a year. It becomes really hard. To now my team is coming back to me and it's like, yeah, this 3rd one's not bad. Yeah, maybe this 4th one too. And they're changing their attitude because they just—
It builds a muscle.
Yes, I keep pushing and pushing and getting them used to it. I'm like, instead of saying, hey, I get you can't do it. All right, let's do only 2. I start asking, why is it that people only do 1 or 2 a year? What are the bottlenecks? What's the main reason behind this? What are the big things that I'm missing and I'm not thinking through? And then they break it down. I'm like, then how would you solve for that? Oh, this is how I solved for it in the past, and this is what we'd do. We'd build a pure integration team that just focuses on X, Y, and Z, and then it becomes more manageable.
I'm like, okay, then go do all of that. This is what we call reverse first principles thinking. And I just came up with it. So, you know, Elon likes to talk about, you know, I think about from first principles, Jensen Huang, I like to think about from first principles and what that really means, by the way, for everyone. When you think about a rocket, right? The Russians were trying to charge Elon like an arm and a leg to buy these rockets back in the day, like $6 million or something. And then Elon's like, well, what actually needs to go into a rocket? Well, actually the components actually lead up to about $300 grand or so. So you actually end up saving like what?
Yeah.
95% plus, right? Something like that, right? And so, but he broke it down to the first principles components. This is the same thing here. What's required to get a deal done? That's what you're basically asking your team. When I say reverse, you're basically putting on your team to think from first principles. Now, Neil doesn't read these things, so I'm just giving it, but that's what he's doing intuitively, which is amazing, right? But the funny, this is no different than like we look at Noah over here, he's got a 6-pack, right? He's working out all the time, but you're just stacking on a little more weight each week, a little more weight, a little more weight. And eventually it's like, Like, oh damn, yeah, I can actually put up 225, like easy, no problem. Right. And you know, there's, there's a lot of examples like that.
But I can't do what he does and have a six pack. I don't think I would ever achieve that.
Well, that's because you don't eat enough. We can talk about you for a moment.
I would have to eat less to get rid of body fat.
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Recently or when I try?
When you try.
When I try, maybe 80 to 100.
It's not enough. You weigh like 120, right?
I weigh 125 this morning.
So, here's the hack for you, okay? This is funny. So, you guys can go to Chick-fil-A, okay? Go to Chick-fil-A, you get the 24 pieces, you will actually get 76 grams of protein on 24 pieces and it's only 400 calories.
Right.
And it's not that expensive either.
But I don't care for a 6-pack to eat that much protein.
You don't need a 6-pack, but you need more macros. You need, if there's anything, you know what's funny? Hormozi, there's a period of time where he was making these videos, like workout videos and things like that, right? And he's like, you know, for 20 years I've had 200 grams of protein every single day. And literally he'll eat like a giant tub of like, you know, Greek yogurt and all that.
Yeah.
But the thing is this, he'll get his 200 grams and then he'll eat whatever he wants, like cupcakes, dinner, dessert and all that, right? And so as long as you get your macros, like it shouldn't be a problem Because you're already at the right weight. And this is not a workout podcast, but I'm pretty sure if you wanted to get it, you just need to, you know, adjust your diet a little bit. Right? Right, Noah? See?
But I don't want to adjust my diet.
Your diet's fine. It's fine.
Yeah, no, overall I eat pretty healthy, but I agree with you. I do work out enough. I don't eat enough protein. And just in general, if I get 100 grams of protein a day, I'm happy. And My goal is to get there and I think I can consistently get there. I don't know if I can get enough protein to build like massive muscle, but I'm okay just having 100 grams and eating some healthy—
I think 100 is perfect because 100, you'll be satiated. It's already like, you know, 80, more than 80%. That's all you really need. I think some people like it's got to be 1 to 1, but honestly, 80% is fine.
Yeah. So even 70%, I don't think it's the end of the world. Well, I don't want, and this is the problem with, I think, some people who are in fitness. I was talking to someone the other day and He was just like, dude, I'm more jacked than ever. Because my friend was at a gym, Curtis, you know Curtis?
Oh yeah.
Curtis was at a gym. He sends me a picture of another guy that I know. And the other guy, I'm not that close to him or anything like that, but he sends me a picture of him. So I text the guy and I text him and I was just like messing around, you know my personality. So I text him like, you're looking a little weak there, bro. And the guy's in pretty good shape. He has a 6-pack. He posts images of his six-pack online. I don't follow him. I think that's you can post whatever you want online, but I think to some extent it starts becoming a little douchey. Just my own two cents. I've told him this too. Yeah. And as he's responding to me, and I'm just joking, he's like, "Dude, I'm more ripped than ever. I'm taking repetitide or repetitide. It's something like that." Okay. It's like this peptide.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think it's like an Ozempic alternative.
It's like a GLP-1. Yeah. It's powerful. It's a little too powerful.
And he's telling me, he's like, he's like, I now have my bottom six-pack. I never had the bottom. I only had the top 2. And he's like, you want me to send you a picture? I'm like, no, I don't need no pictures or anything like that. So he's going in real in-depth and I'm telling him, I was like, why would you want to take this medicine to just get your bottom six-pack? Like, To me, you're already in good enough shape. He's like, dude, this medicine's really good for you and all this. And I just stopped the conversation. I'm like, you should Google it. Whatever it is, there are side effects.
It causes mood problems, that one.
Well, not just mood problems. You can't take drugs and medicine or a magic pill and expect it to not have many side effects. Some may be really minor, but I wouldn't want to risk my life.
Dude, one of my favorite quotes in business or life in general is, there are no solutions, only trade-offs.
Yes.
Everything has a trade-off, right? There's no perfect thing. You live in a big house, guess what? There's a trade-off, right? You get, you have bugs, you have bugs. If you live in a high-rise, like, right, you don't have to deal with bugs, right? But then there's a high-rise, you have to go all the way. There's a trade-off to everything.
Dude, you're so right. There's a trade-off in every decision you end up making in life.
Or let's do kids versus no kids. You have kids, like you're very happy, right? But sometimes like, you know, like there's, there's like, this is a good trade-off, right? Like you have to take care of them. There's a lot of work that goes into it, but it's worth it right now. On the flip side, I don't have kids, but I'm like, man, the grass is greener. Like, I wish I do have kids, right? But there's always the trade-off that comes with it, right? And you have to decide what's acceptable to you, what isn't acceptable to you.
Kids are short-term, uh, not a short-term, it's a long-term pain. But in the longer, longer run, like when they're older, it gets much better.
I think it's short-term pain because 18 years goes by so quickly. And then long-term pain—
I don't think 18 years is a long time.
Dude, look at how long have we known each other?
10 years?
15? 15, 16 years. Look at how fast the time has gone.
Yeah. Time has gone by fast.
Yeah. So it's, it's fast.
Wow. 16 years. That's a long time.
Yeah.
No.
How long have we known each other? 2017? Almost 10 years. Look at that. It was like yesterday when I met him, right?
Yeah.
So anyway, but you know what's interesting? So I was playing tennis the other day. I want to show you this because remember we were talking about the Loba Laureates, right? When you, when you're like an The what? Nobel laureates.
Oh, Nobel laureates.
Okay. So, performance of physics and chemistry Nobel laureates and nominees, right? So, remember we talked about kids that get pushed really hard. So, I'm Chinese, right? And then Neil's Indian, right? So, growing up in my culture, because I grew up in like a Chinese dominant area, Taiwanese more specifically, the parents push them really hard. So, Yaniv and I were watching this girl playing tennis because we were walking up to the tennis courts on Tuesday or so, right? The first thing that Yaniv noticed, like, dude, she's really freaking good, right? This is like a 14-year-old. You know what the first thing I noticed was?
She's Asian?
No, no, dude. Like, that is the first thing I noticed. Yes, I guess. But, but, but, but like, as, as Yaniv's admiring her skill, she's really good at age 14. I was looking at her, I'm like, she hates it. And, and then Yaniv's like, what do you mean? I'm like, and then I walked up to, to the coach that sees her playing a lot. I'm like, She hates it, doesn't she? And he's like, yeah. He's like, how could, like most people, like you're the only one that's noticed. Like everyone notices how good she is. The first thing you called out was how much she hates it. 'Cause I'm looking at her body language, she's hitting it hard. Like she's doing, she's doing really well. The coach is coming out hard on it. We can keep doing this all day. Like if you wanna do this, we can do this. Like she does not give a damn. She's just like looking at the floor when she's like in between sets. She's just like looking at her hands or whatever. And the coach we were talking to is like, I've seen that girl coach up since she was 4 years old. To 14 years old, right? And she has cried all the time. She has never in 1 second or 1 minute even looked like she enjoyed it. And I'm looking at the dad, I'm like, hey, what's her last name, by the way? He gives me their last name, Jing. I'm like, oh, they're Chinese, right? I can say this because I'm Chinese, right? I'm like, that is an example of a tiger parent that's pushed them so hard. But remember, we saw this study before where if you have like an elite kid that learns piano or they learn tennis, they become number 1. The issue with that is they're so narrow-minded that they actually end up average later because they never actually enjoyed it. And the people that are more well-rounded that are like exploring all the time, they actually end up being top 1%. They never had to try that hard. And so like, I'm looking at that, I'm like, man, it's like, as much as like I want to be a dad, right? But it's like, I look at the parenting piece and it's like, dude, trying to drive, trying to drive, I think your company is one thing, but trying to drive your kids is another thing. And you're a parent, right? And maybe it's too early for you to say, Yeah. But I'm actually curious to see what you would say here because again, like, look, same individuals, elite university and top 5%, late 20s, only 15% of those people actually become elite. The other 85% comes from people that weren't pushed that hard growing up. I thought that was fascinating.
Yeah, so my wife and I have this philosophy when it comes to raising children or our kids specifically. If they don't want to do something and they've never done it, We push them to it and we actually do force them to try it out. If they try something out and they hate it, we don't keep pushing them to do it over and over again. And to be very specific, if they try it once and they say they hate it, but we think they're good at it, or the coach says they're really good at it and they have potential, or we think they may like it, we push them to do it 1 or 2 more times.
Mm-hmm.
But if they keep saying, After 3 times, they don't like it. They don't want to do it. We don't make them do it. Even if that sport or that activity would be like, this gets you a ride into Harvard or Stanford, I'm making up the school. I don't care. I don't understand why people force their kids to do something that, you know, they hate because like your childhood memories should be some of your best memories. You shouldn't have resentment for your parents for making you do stuff that you hate. Now, on the flip side, if they have to do homework and they hate doing homework, I will force them to do it because there's certain things that are good for them, like eating balanced meals. And we'll still give them ice cream and stuff here and there, but eating balanced meals, doing your homework, reading books before you go to sleep every single night. And we make it fun. If our kids don't want to read, why don't you want to read? Oh, you find this boring? Well, let me go find different books that you actually will like and I'll read it to you. And eventually you'll see other people reading, then you're going to want to read too. But I just believe it's a really bad parenting model to just force your kids into something like tennis because, you know, it's a great ticket for them to get into a good college when they hate it.
So what I would say is this, because Yaniv was asking me, our mutual friend was asking me, he's like, so why does this happen? I was like, because in Asian cultures, if you can get through this, if you can get through the suck here, the whole idea is that you have the wherewithal to get through anything tough. Because if you've gone through like 10, 15 years of this pain, but to your point, I I actually subscribe to your point. There's no point in making, like, I think the goal of not even kids, but just in life in general is to just learn and explore things. And there's some things that you're gonna like, some things that you're gonna hate. So let me read the study to you real quick and then we can move on. So this study was led by Arne Gullick, I'm butchering it, but a sports scientist at the RPTU University in Germany. They crunched data on more than 34,000 elite performers, Neil. So including sports, chess, classical music, and academia. And including that, although they often reach a high level, the best performing, most intensely teenagers tend to not become true superstars as adults. Those who do make that grade, by contrast, tend to not stand out early on. They take longer to reach their peaks and seem to keep their interests wider for longer. So I just think that's really interesting. And I think this, I think at work certainly be the driver. I think in other areas, maybe, maybe, maybe not so much, but that was eye-opening to me because in that moment I was like, okay, maybe I don't want to push my kids, my future kids That hard because seeing her suffer like that was painful. So.
Yep. And on a random note, remember I talked about the person who's taking those drugs and there's always—
Yeah, he's sexting you.
He, he just texted me. He's like getting ripped. He's at the gym with his shirt off. I'm like, why are you texting me a picture?
I'm like, I don't care. Do I know this guy? Does it start with N?
No, you don't know him. Okay. I don't know him well either. I met him at a conference a few times and spoke. I was like, dude, don't send me this crap.
That's funny.
That's funny.
By the way, one more quote from— so remember the Four Seasons quote?
No.
Neil, what do you define excellence as?
I don't really have a definition of excellence. Let me tell you. Let me tell you. All right, go for it.
So defined by the Four Seasons founder, okay? Excellence is the capacity to take pain, right? And that's why Travis Kalanick is like, everything that you go through, like you think about a marathon runner, for example, right? If they're smiling at mile 21, that they're not a true killer, right? They need to be grinding through it because if you start to let up at that point, someone else is going to come and eat your lunch. Right. And it's crazy to me because to your point on like Travis Kalanick is post-economic, but he's still grinding so hard. Right. He wants to work on harder and harder problems over time. And, you know, people— some people are built differently. I don't think there's any right or wrong way to entrepreneur. But, you know, suffering is built into it.
And so, yes. I— when I look at excellence, I didn't really think too much about suffering. I look at it as you're never really excellent. To me, excellence is like continually trying to improve and get better and never really being satisfied with what you've achieved.
Isn't improving a lot of pain?
That's true. To go through it, you are suffering because you're always trying to achieve more and more.
You almost have to enjoy it.
Yeah.
Like, that's why we've become a little numb to it over time.
And I can't speak specifically for Travis because I don't know him, But what I found, and he's much more successful than I am, once entrepreneurs have made enough money, a lot of them still do more because it's not about the money, it's about purpose in life. But the grind that they have later on usually isn't as nearly as much of a grind as they had before they really started making money.
I mean, look at Bill Gates. Do you think he grinds anymore?
No. Even Travis, like, I do think he works hard. I'm not doubting that. People say I work hard. I don't think, and again, I'm just taking a guess here, I don't know him. I don't think he works as hard as he did when he first founded Uber.
Probably not. Also, you have a lot more leverage when you're a little older, right? Like the success that he's had, the team that he has now and all that. So that's what I would say. So anyway, that's it for today and we'll catch you later.
