What to Expect in Marketing During Lockdown | Marketing School Town Hall 01

Um, let's see what else is going on. Let's see, live studio. I just want to make sure I'm on the right devices. Default. Let's switch over to Scarlett. If you guys can hear me, raise your hand right now. Um, I see you, Noah. Noah will be our beautiful moderator. Um, and then Neil should be joining us in a couple of minutes. Guys, type something into chat. I wanna make sure everything is okay. 'Cause literally what we're doing right now is we're going on Zoom and then we're going on Facebook, my personal Facebook. So Facebook group, my personal Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube. Is that it? That's it, right, Noah?

Yes.

Great.

Cool. Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube.

Got it. Derek is saying, look at that background. Guys, so start dropping your questions in here, 'cause the beauty of this is when you start dropping in your questions, we might even select you in and have you show your face and you can actually talk to us and give us your question right there. And then we're going to chop this up into Marketing School episodes. So we're basically repurposing everything we're doing and going from there. So best way to grow an article and video-based brand stamina and strength, if you can give me an example of that. So YouTube comments are working, Facebook comments are working. This is amazing, guys. And, um, you know, Noah's hanging out in his house, he's got a racing chair. Um, I'm hanging out in the Starship Enterprise. And, um, yeah, we're gonna— we're gonna get started. Oh, there's Neil! There's Neil, he's the— there's the bald-headed god himself.

Hey, um, why do I always have these weird backgrounds?

What's wrong with the background?

I wish I could, but my PC doesn't have enough CPU power according to Zoom to use it.

Oh man, well, it's because you're using a crappy computer. Um, @1Kwan says Warp 5. Yes, for sure. Um, Neil, I'm going to ping you. Oh, I can ping, um, panelists, right? We have a little chat over here.

Can you guys hear me fine? Is my mic working?

Yeah. Uh, it doesn't sound like you're on the real mic though.

I am.

Are you? Neil, check, um, you sound fine. Check the chat, and then I just posted the, um, the podcast ideas document. Um, so guys, we're gonna be here for the next hour and a half. I'm gonna be in the Starship Enterprise. Maybe I'll change it to something later. Um, Neil's gonna be hidden because his computer sucks.

And then, um, it's better now, Scarlet?

Yes, you're better now.

Way better. Yeah, because with, uh, Zoom, I have to change it to that. It doesn't automatically change it to when you plug it in.

There you have it.

This sounds great, Neil.

All right, Noah, how are you doing?

I'm good. I'm hanging in there.

He's hanging— oh, you're hanging in there again. Yes. It keeps coming back for him. He still has—

you got it again?

It keeps relapsing. Although this time I'm like, I'm fighting off pretty good. So I think I'll be good.

So each time it's getting easier and easier where it's not as strong.

Each time it's not as strong. It doesn't pose as much of a threat or slow me down as much.

So you've lost weight too.

Yeah, I did. Well, you can know I'm contending with you now. There you go.

Is it because of Corona?

Yeah.

I'm sorry to hear. I'm happy you're getting better though.

Thanks.

He is happy. Uh, Neil, you're in the document.

I am.

All right, Bill Fishkin, Varun, Jerry, you guys are raising your hands. Um, If you guys have a question, drop it in. And if the question's really good and Neil and I are like, whoa, or Noah's like, whoa, then we'll actually add you as a co-host. And then you can show yourself on screen. Just make sure you put a shirt on. Um, and you know, it'll be a, it'll be a good time for everyone. Um, so give us about like 2 minutes, throw your questions in, go use the restroom right now. If you need to go, like, you know, go get a drink of water. Neil and I are prepping the, um, the topics. And again, if your topic's really exceptional, we're actually just going to add it to the queue. Noah, if you can make sure that I hit record, like a separate record each time so I don't forget. Same for you, Neil. Then we'll make sure we get everything that we need.

Noah, do I have to record or are you going to do it for me?

I'm going to do it.

Okay, even better.

Yep, I'll do it.

6 ways.

Oh damn, we're in May already.

Wow.

So guys, the way we do this, um, is we work through this podcast ideas spreadsheet that we have. And then, um, usually we'll drop a bunch of ideas in and we'll kind of edit the titles. And then, um, we just start going. And then at the same time, we get to answer you guys' questions. I'm gonna look at what's on Restream as well. Um, hello, Justin. Um, Facebook user, I can't see who you really are. Um, and I'll jump back and forth. Are you, are you looking at Restream as well, Noah? Oh, I guess I can't see you. That's okay.

Yeah, I'm also— I've got all the chat windows open up now.

Okay, cool. So Noah's gonna be our beautiful moderator. Look at him, he's like a movie star there. Um, but he's gonna drop in, uh, questions. So Noah, I'll basically say, hey Noah, any questions? And then we'll kind of go back and forth.

Sounds great.

All right. What's going on back there, Noah?

I think that's Neil.

Oh, well, I'm adding topics.

Oh, it's— no, it's your background, but it's not a big deal. It's not like super loud.

Oh, it's I don't know who it is.

Well, it's definitely not me. I don't think it's Noah either. But anyway, shall we go?

Yeah, I'm ready.

All right, here we go.

All right guys, here we go. Drop your questions in as we go, um, those of you that are in the webinar and then also on the other platforms. And I'm gonna clap and here we go.

Wait, is it me before we start? Did we change the sheet or is it me?

Uh, we didn't change the sheet.

Yeah, the sheet's different.

You mean it looks different?

Yeah.

Yes, it looks different to me too.

It's okay.

Oh, there's no highlights anymore. Oh, you know what? And I hid the, the Neil Eric thing because we don't need that anymore.

Okay. That's what it is. I'm like, there's something that's missing here. All right.

I'm going to hit record to this computer. We are recording. We are live. Here we go. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about 2 free ClickFlow features you can use to grow during tough times.

So I've used ClickFlow myself to improve my overall click-through rate, but, you know, over the years click-through has changed. It's gotten better and I have used it recently as well, but it's changed. It used to be just something that was as simple as you can A/B test your title tags. It's something that's more in-depth now. So, and I remember when it was first out there, the only option you had was you had to pay and you had to be a big business, but now ClickFlow works for all types of companies. So Eric, if I was a business, I was someone who's doing SEO, I'm trying to get more traffic and I don't have a ton of money and I want 2 things that I can do on ClickFlow to grow my traffic, what would they be?

Yeah. So thank you for that, Neil. The first thing you can do with ClickFlow, this is actually completely free. So also known as a freemium feature, is you can use our content decay feature, meaning we will basically look at your analytics and we'll look at all the top pieces of content that you've had that have lost a ton of traffic. So if you had a piece that was driving maybe 100,000 visits a month, just for sake of simplicity, and you lose, you know, 90,000 visits, you've lost 90% of your traffic. We're going to highlight all these losses so you can come back later and you can come upgrade Update these pieces of content because that's one tactic that we've shown to work really, really well. That's the first one.

Wait, so before we go on to the second one, okay, so it tells me what content is decaying. I get the concept. If your content is getting old and you update it because Google likes ranking fresh content with over a billion blogs on the web, millions of new blog posts are created each and every single day just in English alone, right? Way more when you look at all languages. What would you say people should do when it comes to updating their old content? And how long does it take to see results for that?

Yeah, great question. So I mean, updating, I think, you know, Neil himself has 3 full-time people dedicated to updating. HubSpot, they have a bunch of full-time people. So it's a very serious thing that works really well. And I'll give you an example. We had this one blog post a long time ago, was getting about maybe 1,000 visits a month. So not bad for one blog post. And we basically added one paragraph to it because we noticed that the traffic was starting to decay a little bit. And we happened to be monitoring that page. So that's why we're on top of it. Now, every couple of months or so, we would add another paragraph of content. We just keep adding another paragraph. That post now gets 25,000 visits a month and it keeps going up and to the right. So we saw results as soon as we added that paragraph. In about a week, our traffic started going up, right? Now, your mileage may vary. It depends on how old your site is, how much domain authority you have. There's a lot of different variables there. But in general, once your site is a little bit established, you keep updating pieces of content, you're gonna get more credit for it because Google sees you tending to the garden that you already have instead of just throwing up a bunch of new content all the time. Because like to Neil's point, millions, I think 3 to 4 million plus new blog posts coming out every single day. How do you compete?

All right.

So what's the second feature?

I was drinking my hot water. So the second feature is our content editor. So content editor, what it allows you to do is we talked about the importance of updating your pieces of content. Now, if you're a writer, if you go out and you hire writers, the problem with that is they often don't know much about SEO. They don't know the right keywords to insert. They don't know how much of the keywords they should be inserting. So what basically happens with our content editor is you can write within it. And let's say you're targeting a keyword such as SaaS marketing trends. Well, guess what? Our content editor will tell you the most relevant keywords to add, such as, you know, SaaS marketing, or you might want to add like, you know, SaaS trends to your piece of content. And you want it to make sense. You don't want to keyword stuff, but it makes life a lot easier for your writer because it gives you a score. There's a checklist on the right side for keywords you should be adding. And it's almost a little gamified version of writing content. So now when they finish writing a piece of content for you, they can push it to your CMS, or they can push it to HTML. And then from there, guess what happens? Your piece that comes out is going to have the keywords it needs to have to bring in more long-tail traffic for your site. And that's it. Any questions on it?

Nope.

Great. So I'll close it off. So guys, obviously, I think with, you know, the time period we're in right now, you know, we've been actually getting a lot of interest around actually doing an education program for Marketing School, 'cause we're called Marketing School. So if you wanna go to marketingschool.io/school, right now we have a waitlist open for the people that are interested. So I should call it an interest list for people that are interested in our education program. We just wanna gauge, see who's interested in it, and then we'll give more details as we go along. So go there, marketingschool.io/school. And we will see you tomorrow. Let's stop the recording.

Got a couple, got a couple Q&As in the Zoom chat as well as a few comments here and there.

We have stuff in the Zoom chat? I don't see anything in the Zoom chat.

Yeah, there's a Q&A on the bottom. I've got Jeremy Chen and Varun Singh.

Okay, well, let's, um, you know what, Neil, what do you think about this one? Why don't we take this question and make it a live episode? My startup has almost exhausted its cash. We're slashed Uh, marking spend, we're going inward. Um, what do you think about that? And Neil, you're muted.

I like it. Add it to the list.

Okay. Let's do this.

All right.

And then, and we'll answer it right now. We'll make it the next episode. Just add it to the, to 317. Oh, there you go. You already did it.

Uh, I guess we're going to change this. There we go. That works. Um, all right. So Varun, we are answering your question. I'm going to make sure that we set the recording to this computer. And here I'm going to go, go, I'm going to go clap, enter live. Here we go. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about what happens if your startup has exhausted all of its cash and you slashed your marketing spend to zilch. And this question, we're doing this live right now, comes from Varun Singh. And Neil, what are your thoughts on this?

So first off, you know, in business, and we see this, typically the first expense that's to go during bad times is marketing. It's not people, it's marketing. And that makes sense. You don't want to let people go first. You want to let your marketing budgets go first. I know being a marketer, that's weird for me to say, but it's true. You want to try to retain people as much as possible. Now, when you slash your marketing budget to zilch, you need to rethink that. And here's what I mean by that. When tough times comes, you want to save people, so you want to save on marketing budget, but you only want to cut off the marketing budget that's not profitable. So if you're spending a dollar on a marketing channel and it loses you money, then you should cut it for sure. But if you're spending a dollar and it's making you $3, and after all costs, you're still profiting 50 cents or a dollar, you want to keep that because if you slash that during a bad time, it's actually going to make your situation even worse, right? So the first thing you need to do is look at the marketing spend that you've slashed and make sure that you're only slashing the ones that aren't profitable and you keep the profitable ones going. That's the first thing you need to do. Cool.

So I guess, you know, from my end, I think there's a good example of this, this, and we're probably going to do a live with him, Pep, Pep from ConversionXL. I'm seeing right now for a lot of entrepreneurs, like a lot of costs have been cut. So marketing is literally, it's zero, right? Unfortunately, they might've had to lay off, you know, some marketing and sales staff as well. But it's during times like this where you get to go back to doing hand-to-hand combat. It's times like this where you take out the skills that you were basically using in the past to grow the business from nothing to what it is now. And you gotta adapt. So, you know, ConversionXL, basically they sell education courses, marketing education courses, and they used to charge more of a premium price. I think it was, you know, a couple hundred, couple thousand dollars for courses and you just pay for it upfront. Now for him, if you go to cxl.com, he's now changed it to, I think it's a $1 trial for 7 days. It's very similar to what Ahrefs does. So it's a paid trial, but it's a very small paid trial. And the whole idea behind that is He made these changes, A, very quickly. It didn't cost him much money to do it. And what's amazing is his sales are now on track to break March's record, and it's only, you know, kind of halfway through the month, right? So sometimes during times like this where you go back to hand-to-hand combat and you want to make the changes that you've been wanting to make for a long time, it's often just flipping that switch, jumping back into it as a leader yourself. You know, if it's, you know, if it's a very small company especially. And then kind of going from there, right? Because you don't get the luxury of resources anymore. You didn't get the luxury of having a bunch of people help you. And in many cases, I think a lot of us, we've gotten, you know, lazy in many cases. And this is the time where the rubber meets the road and the people that step up and are willing to go back to, you know, doing things that they thought were above themselves, those are the ones that are really going to thrive.

Yeah. The other thing that I want you to do is start looking at partnerships. It's very similar to marketing, but it doesn't cost money. There's someone out there who's not a competitor, but is in the same industry and has your customers. Why not partner with them and try to get them to drive you business? So for example, with this is, let's say, you know, I have an SEO agency or a digital marketing agency called Neil Patel Digital. And there's actually someone in our Utah office. They have, that we're, funny enough, we're subleasing our space from them. And in that office, they have a huge company that all they do is marketing for lawyers and dentists and doctors, but they don't do SEO or they're not doing paid advertising, right? So that's a great partnership because we can drive, they can drive us business and they can potentially make money from it by selling this to their customers at a premium. So not only do they make more money, but it also allows us to grow. Without having us spending any money on marketing as well. So start thinking outside the box because there's other ways to grow. And one of the easiest ways to grow is business partnerships.

Yep. So I had a really good answer, but then I forgot what it was. Um, so, um, the other thing I would think about when it comes to— we talked about hand-to-hand combat, we talked about affiliate marketing as well. But the other thing to think about too, especially if you're in your service business right now, is think about how you can play the long game, right? If you look at Gary Vee as an example of a guy that's out there, um, and his agency, you know, VaynerMedia, right now he's having to put out a lot of fires when it comes to clients. And, you know, a lot of contracts are canceling, but at the same time, he's also adapting because he used to create a ton of content every day. We're talking, you know, hours and hours of footage because he has a team following him around. Um, and now what he does is he does a, a, a live, a daily live for about 2 2 hours every morning he goes live and that's his content, right? So being able to adapt during times like this and being able to build a lot of goodwill, like I've been doing a lot of kind of one-on-one Zooms, a lot of group Zooms, even in this scenario, we're going kind of live across the board to multiple channels. That goes a long way because people actually do come back to you later. Because I remember in the past when it's been tough times, you know, the goodwill that I've built up, people do actually come back like a year or 2 years later. And, you know, if you're saying, oh my God, that's going to take a long time. Ultimately what you're trying to do is you're trying to play the long game, right? So we did give you a couple of things that you can do kind of immediately, but I do want you to think about how you can build your base right now and how you can start building your audience right now, especially during, you know, talking to a lot of agency or service-based businesses right now, their lead flow has dried up. So I do like, you know, the things we mentioned to like the affiliate model, but sometimes even that type of stuff, Takes time to get going. Now remember my answer. Go to sparktoro.com. That's Rand Fishkin's new tool. And what Neil was talking about in terms of finding partners, SparkToro is basically like having your Dream 100 for different categories. They'll help you find, you know, top podcasts related to a keyword. They'll help you find top YouTube channels related to a certain keyword, top websites, top Twitters. I used it for the first time today and it was immediately like I got the aha moment.

And Yeah.

I don't know if you've tried it or not, Neil, but you should, you definitely should.

Cool.

Yeah.

I haven't tried it out yet, but I will.

All right. So that is it for today. Go to marketingschool.io/school if you want to get on the waiting list for the education program that Neil and I are working on, because we literally have marketing school. So check it out. If it's interesting to you during these times, then yeah, just go and fill it out. We'll see you tomorrow. Okay. What do we got, Noah?

Oh, so we got a fun one here. It says, why have yourself and Neil not yet merged to create one agency? This is from Justin Lester.

That's a good question.

I think different approaches. Eric started before me.

Technically, you started before me.

No, you had Single Grain before me.

No, but you had ACS.

Yes. But then when you had Single Grain, I had no more ACS.

That's right. That's right.

You had Single Grain. And then I think our agencies just have different strategies and overall concepts. You know, merging could work. There's nothing wrong or right with it. It's just, we have our different strategies.

I think it's a different approach, right? Because if you think about it, Neil, like you and I, we talk about this a lot. Like my approach long-term is to build a pay-for-performance type of thing, right? Correct.

I was just going to mention that. You're trying to go performance.

And then, but for you, like you're building, you're, you're building a lot of, you're building volume and you have a bunch of offices around the world. Right. So it's just, to me, it's a different business model.

Correct. So when you're thinking about merging with someone else, you want to make sure you're merging with someone else who has a similar strategy, because the last thing you want to do is derail what you're doing and adapt a different strategy or have too many strategies going at once. It doesn't mean that the other person has a bad strategy. It's just each person has to figure out what's right for their business. And if you're growing and you're happy with your growth, the last thing you want to do is start going in 10 different directions because all that's going to do is just create chaos.

Exactly. That was a really good question. So let's go on with the next one. Guys, keep dropping your questions in, especially if you're on the webinar right now. If you're on the social channels, Noah's going to pull in those questions as we go through these. But on the webinar, there's a Q&A section. You guys can actually upvote the questions that you like. So just make sure you fill that out. And then Neil and I, we're going to move on to the next one. So let me hit record. And if you guys are enjoying this right now, type 1 into the chat. I just want to, I just want to, Neil and I want to know that like the work we're putting in, especially with Noah's time too, is that you're actually valuing this. Look at you guys. So nice. Record on this computer. Here we go.

A lot of people in the Zoom chat.

That's great.

All right. I am starting. Here we go. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about 2 free Ubersuggest features you can use to grow your traffic today. So before we start, Neil, can you give people that don't know a quick recap on what Ubersuggest is and then go into the features?

Sure.

So Ubersuggest is a tool that you can use to help grow your SEO traffic. Almost all of the tool is free and it'll give you data on any keyword like traffic volume, mobile volume versus desktop, age range of people searching for it. Tons of keyword ideas, as well as blog post ideas and domain traffic estimations when it comes to Google traffic or what a domain ranks for, even things like site audit.

Got it.

So I guess, and by the way, like for people that want to access Ubersuggest right now, what is the price to actually try this thing?

Free. So Ubersuggest is free. You don't have to put in a credit card. There are paid plans, but you can do almost everything for free.

Got it. Cool. And did you, did you give just those 2 free features immediately?

Uh, I, I didn't give the free features. I can give the 2 free features that I would use.

Yeah, give the features.

Okay. So the 2 free features that I would use if you want to grow your traffic the most is the first is a report called the top pages. So if you put in a popular competitor, It'll show you not only their traffic, but the top pages will show you all the top pages that your competitors have. And under top pages, it'll show you each URL, show you how many backlinks they have, how many social shares it has, and how many visits it has from Google. And there's some dropdowns for under estimated visits and even for the backlinks. So you can see every single site linking to that page. And you can also see every single keyword that that page ranks for. So go look at your competitors' top pages and use Brian Dean's Skyscraper Technique and go write a page that's more thorough than theirs and make sure you include the keywords that they already rank for that Ubersuggest shows you. And it shows you right then and there in that report. It's a great strategy to do for all your competitors. And if you do this, you'll start gobbling up some of the traffic that they're getting. So that's the first free feature that I would use. And yeah.

My question then is some people are probably wondering, and some people have wondered in the past, Oh my God, why can't I just use like Ahrefs or the current tools I'm using right now? Why use Ubersuggest? How's yours different?

You can use them. If you want to pay $99 a month, you can go and pay $99 a month. Or if you want to save the money, you can save the money.

There you have it. And what's number 2?

The second feature I would use, and this one's really simple, is a site audit report. It'll crawl your site and it'll tell you all the SEO errors to fix. And it even prioritizes them based on impact and how easy they are to implement. So go do the ones that have the highest impact and then the easiest to implement first. Or in essence, you can just go through the list top-down because it already does that for you. And once you do that, you'll also notice higher rankings and you can track your rankings and your traffic within Ubersuggest for free as well. Because you can just create a project, just go to the dashboard and it'll track your rankings, your traffic, your backlinks over time. And it'll tell you if you're moving up or down.

And do they— I'm assuming people also get an email notification on how this stuff is going so they can go back into the app?

Exactly, yes.

Got it, cool. So people can go to neilpatel.com/ubersuggest, correct?

Yep, or ubersuggest.com, whatever's easier for you guys.

Yeah, and one thing I want to call out too, I mean, we're recording this, it's April 15th, 2020. The one thing that Neil's doing just to kind of help more people right now, and I'm assuming you're still doing this right now, is that you are giving people a good deal on Ubersuggest, right? And that's a good marketing thing. And not only that, you're just trying to build goodwill, correct?

Yeah. So our pricing for what you get compared to the competitors is at least, let's say, 3, 4 times cheaper to be conservative. In some instances, it's 7, 8 times cheaper. But on top of that, you can pretty much do a lot for free that they would charge a minimum of $99 a month for. Now by doing that, I don't really make much money from the app while my competitors make millions of dollars a month, but it allows me to do goodwill. And my goal isn't to build a big software company or make a ton of money from the software. It's really to just help marketers out and ideally cover my costs. My burn right now, last month it was around $280,000. I'm trying to get my burn down because it's easier to just give away more for free and hopefully I can Get my burn down to $200 and eventually within 6 months break even at $200 a month. All right guys.

So that is it for today. Go to marketingschool.io/school to learn about the education program that Neil and I are working on to get on the waitlist and we'll see you tomorrow. Um, so Jerry's actually got 2 questions and 2 upvotes over here. Um, Noah, do we want to make him go live? So Jerry, make sure you put on a shirt and then we're going to answer you live so you can ask this.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, 'cause, okay. Yeah, they're both about the same article too. So that's great. So do I hit the answer live here?

Make him, make him, make him a co-host and then he can show his face. All right.

Give me a second to set that up.

Here, I'll just do it.

Yeah.

So Jerry Chen promoting to panelists and And then now you just make him a co-host. Let's see.

All right, Jerry Chan is the co-host now.

Oh wow, this is full-on podcast setup.

Yeah. Hi guys. Hey, see ya. Hi Neil, a big fan of yours for years.

Thank you.

Uh, so let me, let me go, uh, straight to the heart of the question. So I read your article regarding the, uh, coronavirus situation It was a very, very nice thought-out article. My main question was where the data came from. And then the follow-up question is, you know, there's a bit of a fine line between exploiting the situation versus profiting from it. I hear both sides of the argument, so I would love to have your input on that.

Sure.

So data comes in combination between third-party providers that we buy data from, EX Data for SEO is like one of them. We have a ton of third-party providers that we buy data from. Second place comes from my ad agency. We just have a ton of data, so many customers because we have 7 offices around the world. And then third place is Ubersuggest, of course. So a combination of all of them and then engineers doing their magic is what allows us to come up with data. It's also why when my article, I broke down Sometimes I don't have all of the data, like with the paid stuff. I didn't have— I did 2 coronavirus articles, but in my first one, I couldn't do as many charts when it came to paid traffic related to coronavirus because I just didn't have enough of a large enough dataset, if that makes sense. Because you would have to have a large enough dataset for each industry to get the results. And then as it comes from exploiting it, Or not. I'm a big believer in just not trying to exploit things. Yeah, you can make money. It could not— maybe you don't get any bad PR. Most people don't actually get bad PR from exploiting it. Just ethically, I'm a big believer in helping people out in a time of need and not worry about yourself because there's always someone out there who's struggling more than we are, right?

Yeah, for sure. So thank you for that. So back to your first answer, how big is the actual dataset that you were looking at to compile that data? Because I mean, we're only as good as how reliable our data sources are, right?

Sure, it's in the millions.

Ah, got it, got it. Thank you.

It's a lot of data. Depending on the chart, some is in the thousands, not like 1,000. I'm talking about like tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. I don't have the exact answer on the dataset, but like we literally have data on millions and millions and millions of websites. Now we can't use all of it. So it's not as simple as just saying, here's someone's traffic stats. There's a lot of privacy laws, anonymizing data, but majority of it we actually buy through third-party providers versus using our own database because we tell our customers when they sign up, We won't do malicious things and abuse our privileges because that would just be wrong. Plus, people authenticate through Google. Google's very strict on what you can or can't do. So they protect users very well. Shockingly, it's not as simple as someone signing up for Ubersuggest and us being able to do whatever we want. One, we wouldn't do that, but Google's very protective on what you're allowed to do and what data you're allowed to see.

I see. Awesome.

Cool. Thanks, Jerry.

Thanks for the question.

We're going to make you back to, uh, make— we're going to withdraw, but we're still going to be here for you. Maybe if you have another one, we'll bring you back.

Sure.

All right. All right. We're ready for the next one. Yeah. Next one is right there. Okay, here we go. Let me hit record. Uh, record the computer. Here we go. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we're going to talk about 5 ways to learn from your competitors and shortcut your marketing success. So I'll go with number 1 first. I talked about this, I believe, maybe last 2 episodes, but I do want to bring it up because it's fresh and I actually got to play with the tool for the first time today. And so the tool is SparkToro. That's S-P-A-R-K-T-O-R-O. And the reason I like SparkToro is if you think about Chet Holmes' Dream 100 concept, which is basically, if I want to promote my book, I'm going to go find the top 100 podcasts in gaming, for example.

Okay?

That's my Dream 100 for the podcast. Then I'm going to find a Dream 100 for YouTube, right? So this Dream 100 concept was kind of coined by him. And then Russell Brunson from ClickFunnels kind of made a Dream 100 for different categories. Now, What's beautiful about SparkToro is instead of you having to manually find all the influencers, all the partners that you might potentially want to work with, you can just use SparkToro and you get 5 free searches a month. And you can just find, based on keywords, by the way, you can find a bunch of people. And from there, you can basically decide, okay, I'm going to try to work with these people. I'm going to reach out to these people. And you are going to leverage the audience that they already have. To help you get to where you want to go. So that's number one.

The second thing that I would do is go look at your competitors and see which one is running A/B tests or continually modifying their design. BuiltWith is a website that tells you if someone's using A/B testing software like Optimizely, VWO, or Hotjar, Crazy Egg, or anything like that. And what you'll want to end up doing is seeing what changes they're making. Because if someone's continually making changes and they're using these softwares, that means they're tracking to make sure that the changes they're making in their design and copy is boosting sales, revenue, conversions. So what I like doing is using Wayback Machine. Wayback Machine shows me the variations of their pages that they've been using and how their design and copy has evolved over time. And then what I like doing is learning from that because If they're using the conversion software, you know that the changes that they're making tend to be increasing conversions. So learn from that. And that should give you ideas on what direction you should be going with your business to start getting more sales, more conversions faster versus having to do all the learnings that they already did.

The third one, this seems like a duh statement, but Facebook Ad Library has been great. I mean, to be able to see when your competitors are putting up new ads and how long they've been running those ads for, what type of ad copy they're using. Chances are if they've been running an ad for a very long time, they're either A, stupid, or B, the ad's been working really well, right? Most of the time it's one or the other, and they're probably not number one if they've constantly been spending a ton of money. And so Facebook Ad Library, I just like to use it not only to look at competitors, but to just draw inspirations that I could potentially swipe. Because when you're writing copy or when you're writing any type of advertising, you're ultimately looking for copy, You're looking for some type of structure that you can pull from and then ultimately make it your own.

Number 4, look, one thing that all your competition's doing online, and I don't understand why people do this, people go on podcast interviews and they talk about their business, their revenue, what's causing it to grow, what failures they had, and they're spilling all their beans. Like one podcast that I listen to a lot, funny enough, is the Growth Everywhere podcast. It's not because Eric's my co-host. What was that?

It's called Leveling Up now.

Leveling Up. So the podcasts I love listening to, one of them is Leveling Up, another one's Nathan Latka. And when you look at these podcasts, you know, I'm not mentioning Eric's Leveling Up because he's my co-host in Marketing School. It honestly is good. And a lot of my competitors have been on his podcast or people in similar industries. They talk about what's working for them, what's failed, and their strategies, and they're spilling their beans. And a lot of them do it to brag. And what's cool about it for me as a marketer is I'm able to learn from it and avoid their pitfalls and failures so that way I can grow faster. So make sure you search for your competitors and add the word revenue at the end or podcast at the end. And you'll find that they'll reveal in a lot of articles or podcast episodes breaking down how they're doing and what you can learn from them to grow faster.

Yeah. Nathan Latka's podcast is hilarious because he like, when he forces the revenue out of them and if they don't give the revenue, he basically like, extrapolates the math, which is pretty simple. And usually they're like, oh yeah, you know, it's roughly that. But anyway, I digress. So number 5, last but not least, this is similar to my last recommendation. So last one was Facebook Ad Library, but most people don't know that you can use software such as Adbeat and you can look at what type of ads people are running on Google. For example, Google Display Network. You can look at how their spend is trending over time, what their top ads are. And again, As an advertiser, as a copywriter, your job is to have a swipe file, like a library of, um, you know, ad copy or ads that you like. And then from there, you just restructure into whatever you're trying to do, because if the ad worked on you, then you should be, you know, you should be thinking about, okay, why did that work on me and how it might potentially work if you basically restructured a little bit and tailored it towards your audience. All right. So that is it for today. Go to marketingschool.io/school if you want to get on the waiting list for the education program that we're working on. And we'll see you tomorrow. Man, these blunders are so scary. Sometimes it's like I can just like end the total meeting.

Um, are you clicking record on this?

Yeah, I am. Um, is that how you say it, Neil? Uh, what's the name of the tool Eric mentioned? That's SparkToro. Here, I'll drop it in chat right now. Um, go ahead, Noah.

I, I think that's how you I don't know, but I'm pretty sure.

Yeah. Got a couple career-oriented questions here. So Virenya DV asks, she's planning to write blogs for startups around work. How does she leverage, market herself on LinkedIn? Do you have any suggestions?

So she's trying to figure out how to market herself on LinkedIn to get a job?

Or it's a he. I think it's a he. Sorry. I am planning to write blogs on marketing, startups, work life, and everything related to work/jobs on LinkedIn. My aim is to market myself on LinkedIn. Do you have any suggestions?

Writing posts helps. Quotes and images help. But the best thing to do on LinkedIn, if you want to market and you're trying to give advice, go live on LinkedIn. You'll get way more reach and you'll get way more engagement. The second thing you want to do is create videos. So going live and videos has the biggest impact from what we've seen on LinkedIn than anything else. Now you could do things like carousels like Eric and I are doing, or you could do things like posting quotes and memes and screenshots. But from a reputation standpoint, a branding standpoint, revenue standpoint, the videos, whether it's live or just posting videos, tend to do the best.

Cool.

I have nothing more to add there. Let's take one more and we can go back to recording.

Yeah, very cool. This is a good one. So from Jesse Hernandez, when building a free tool, what's the best way to create a paid offering with product-market fit?

Well, I feel like those are 2 separate things. So let's talk about, okay, like, When building a free tool, what's the best way to create a paid offering with product-market fit? So I think you have to figure out product-market fit. I don't think you can just say you're gonna build a free tool. So maybe I'm not sure I'm understanding the question correctly. But, you know, the whole product-marketing fit thing, it's— Neil and I talked about, you know, the journey for a successful company, right? Usually it's a 2 to 3 year journey to figure out product-market fit. And oftentimes you might be pivoting quite a bit, right? So that's one thing. What you got to realize then is when you're using something like, when you're building that product, what you got to find out using a tool like Amplitude, Amplitude allows you to see which features people are using the most and which people are clicking on the most. Then you're going to be able to derive where people are getting the most value from. And then from there you can figure out, okay, these levers are the people are pulling the most. So these are the most valuable. So I'm going to price based on these. And then I might give people Like SparkToro, for example, they give 5 free searches. That's their freemium version. So if you know that the search is the main piece of value, then you kind of tie things to that, right? So HubSpot would be a good example of this because when you try to add a new sales pipeline or when you try to add specific new, you're trying to do other things within HubSpot, they have all these locks within the system that prevent you from doing other stuff unless you upgrade, right? So the first thing you gotta figure out is What are your value metrics? You can use a tool like Amplitude. And then from there, you can kind of make this, you know, key decisions on, you know, where to go with your product next. But the whole product-market fit thing, you know, we're talking, that's usually a 2 to 3 year journey. Neil?

You pretty much answered it.

Cool. So let us go to the next one. Jerry's got another good question, but we'll come back to that. Yep. So, Here we go. I guess this next one's for me, huh, Neil? So record to record on this computer. Here we go.

I get to interview you.

Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about if you should run paid ads to get consulting and agency clients.

So Eric, you have 2 things on this, funny enough. First off is I've seen you run paid ads. Over the weekend, I sent you a screenshot of how I saw 2 of your ads on the same page. And then on top of that, you have a program that teaches people how to generate or grow their agency as well. So why don't you first answer the question of should you run paid ads to get consulting clients? And then let's go into If you should, what are the best ads that perform well?

Yeah. And I'll just talk about the funnel. I think this will actually answer your first question because we have 2 programs that are very similar. One's called the Evergreen Traffic Machine. That's basically a framework on how you can build traffic for your business. That's more for getting consulting clients. Like you can actually generate applications that way. And you guys feel free to swipe this if you want. I'm not going to lose any sleep. And then the second thing we have is the Agency Accelerator Program. And actually, I want to call out Stefano Romero. He's actually a part of that program and he's attending today. And so, you know, going back to the Evergreen Traffic Machine, yes, you should be running ads. You know why? Because we are able to target people on Facebook or even YouTube, for example. And what we do is we drive them to an application. So we say, hey, look, if you're interested in like a traffic framework, here's a quick video on it. It might be like 15 minutes. And then they can fill out an application from there. And then once they fill out the application, they fill out like a lot of info, like what the revenue size is, what their goals are, what their content marketing budgets are. And then from there, we can decide whether we want to take them on for a sales phone call or not. That's on the agency side. And that works. Now, do you have questions on that before I move to the program?

No.

Okay. So the program, it's a very similar—

Or let's go back. I actually have one question. How effective is it?

I mean, look at it this way. We are getting leads right now. And we just started, we just started the Evergreen Traffic Machine thing back up. For an application, for someone to fill out an application, I remember our past numbers in aggregate, it would cost us about $200 for an application. And so what does that mean exactly? So $200 for an application, let's assume that, you know, A small percentage of those people are actually qualified to work with us. So let's say 25%, and then we can close them at 20% or so. That means for every sale that we get, it could potentially be around $4,000. You can even say $8,000. And for our agency side, let's say our lifetime value is $50,000. That actually makes it worth it, right? So that's an example of how it could work.

All right, cool. And then let's go to the next one.

Yep.

So the next one, I mean, it's a very similar thing, right? The idea here is, again, you're providing people value and you're providing people a framework. And I'm saying, guys, look, I've built an agency before. And, you know, look at what I have. In addition to all the other stuff, I use my agency as a platform, right? It's not just the agency. It's how do you go beyond that? And a lot of people want to do that right now. A lot of people want to start one. A lot of people want to grow one right now. And so from there, we just, you know, drive them to an application and then we get on a phone call with them.

Yeah.

And I've actually, I've actually been on a couple of these phone calls, um, just to kind of, you know, do more customer development to tweak it. But, um, it works similar funnel to the other one. Um, and you know, it does well.

Cool. Any final things to add?

No final things to add, guys. Just go to marketingschool.io/school because Neil and I are working on an education thing for Marketing School. Just go in, um, and just put in your email and you'll be on the waiting list. And, um, we will make announcements when it is time to do it.

All right. One more thing. So where can people go on your website to see your funnel?

Oh yeah. So go to singlegrain.com/call if you want to book a call. And one of the calls might actually be with myself if you're looking to grow your agency. So you can see the funnel right there. Cool. Goodbye, guys. So that's the recording has stopped. Shall we take on one question? Just one. Yeah.

So another career-oriented question. Varun is asking, how do you break in? This is for Neil.

I'm going to reload my water. Go ahead, Neil.

Great. So basically during this challenging time for everybody, how do you basically impress potential hiring managers and let them know, like especially in the case of a product manager role, so like a foot in the door technique?

They're not working there, but they want to get their foot in the door?

Exactly.

I would go and break down something in their business Go do something, whether it's a mockup, a PDF, writing down paragraphs, or video explaining how they can do something more efficient or better, or whatever it may be that your role is, and break down the process on how they can implement it and do it. And that shows, you know, put the— the proof is in the pudding, right? If you can show people that you can provide ROI, they're much more likely to hire you.

All right. We are on to our next one. How many did we do so far? I think we did 5 already, right? 4, 5. Yeah, we did 5 already. Amazing. And we're like, we're like ahead of schedule. All right, here we go. I'm going to hit record. And here we go. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about the future of blogging as a marketing channel. Neil, we should give some context to people first. I mean, we know right now millions and millions of blog posts are coming out every single day, 3 to 4 million plus. Now that we're kind of at home, at least as of this recording, we know more and more content is coming out. So the question is, where is blogging going as a marketing channel? What do people need to be concerned about? Yeah.

You mentioned it, right? There's millions and millions of blog posts coming out each and every single day. There's over a billion blogs. And those numbers are just increasing. And, you know, when we look at it, I remember we ran a study in 2019 to look at the future of digital marketing. One of them was how many of your customers find you through blogging first? And it's above 20%, shockingly, for the web. And when we look at that, the data is actually increasing year over year. So—

Yeah.

A blog and content is a great way to attract people, but you run into 2 issues right now. One, it's super competitive and saturated. And 2, if you don't do something unique, you're not going to stand out and you're not going to do well, right? Like, you know, Eric and I talk about this. I get more traffic than him. And Eric, what do you think is one of the main reasons on why I get more traffic than you?

Well, I think Ubersuggest is a big piece of it.

Forget that. But like the other one, and you mentioned this to me, is I've been doing this longer.

Oh yeah. So, I mean, look at it this way, right? It's, it's when you look at it as an investment, you've been compounding for way longer than I have.

Exactly. And I also got in early, right? When it was less competitive, easier, and that's helped me.

Sure.

I've adjusted my strategy as there's been more competition, but still, timing helps a lot. And right now, if you're going to start or you're going to try to kick it in, it's going to be super competitive. So let's first go after— and they actually go hand in hand, right? That it's saturated and you have to stand out, because if you stand out, you don't have to worry about it being saturated. What are some strategies that you would use today to stand out, Eric?

Yeah, I mean, actually, I mean, this is— we're going to talk about this in our next, next podcast episode, but there's a piece I read and I'll just talk about it right now a little bit. If you Google marketing showrunners experience spectrum. So again, marketing showrunners experience spectrum, that's S-P-E-C-T-R-Y-M, I think. So the whole idea around marketing is you have to stand out. You can't just be something that's very Google, something like you can— someone can just Google like the sports scores, right? Like that's very transactional. That's on the left side of the experience spectrum. As you come up a little bit, you know, you might go to information where you're learning from like an expert. So it might be the sports scores, but you have like a sports analyst like Stephen A. Smith or something like that, right? But it's still the same information at the end of the day. So you got to think about how you can take people on a journey, how you can take people on an experience. And this guy's name is Jay Acunzo. I'm probably butchering his last name. But if you want to stand out, You think about people like Backlinko when they're writing their SEO posts, they brand things, skyscraper technique, power pages, right? All these things. And I think about the early days, at least when I first started learning marketing, Neil would make these guides, you know, $30,000 on this really well-designed guide. And that was really hot at the time. And that's how he ranked for all these amazing keywords. But it's because that piece stood out head and shoulders above the rest. And it wasn't just another blog post.

Yeah.

And another thing that you can do if you want to end up standing out, and people stopped doing this, is infographics. You can use Infogram to create an infographic. It stands out. People are still very visual, but a lot less people have been creating infographics compared to 6, 7, 8 years ago, and they still do really well. Tools are another one. Eric mentioned that, right? I have Ubersuggest. Adding a tool to your blog or your site generates a ton of traffic, and it can also convert well into leads. What other strategies? Carousels. You've been big on carousels lately.

I think it's just repurposing in general. I think that's what we're basically saying now.

Yeah. In essence, you're repurposing. Like the carousel concept, you can check out Eric or my Instagram profile. Both of us use carousels and we're just, in essence, repurposing information and making it the ability to swipe. You can end up doing that in PowerPoint presentations. You can end up doing that in images. You can do that with blog content as well. And it's all easy ways to generate more traffic and stand out.

Yeah, I think the point is too, like, what we're basically saying is, look, you can't put all your eggs in one basket, especially in today's day and age. I think 10 years ago, maybe you can say, I'm just focused on blogging, I'm just focused on this. Like, for the vast majority of us, I think we are going to have to think about how we can diversify given that the attention is so split right now. And like, who knows what's going to happen, right? But I just know, like, if you're starting in today's day and age and you just relied on blogging, it is going to be tough sledding, especially if you don't have an email list, especially if you don't have an audience. So as soon as you start to get one channel going, you got to start to think about how you can diversify as quickly as possible. It's something Neil and I talk about a lot, but, you know, it's easier said than done, but it's simple to do. Neil?

Yeah, totally. And if you put all your eggs in one basket, you're not going to do as well. And if you just do simple things like Hey, I'm going to go and write on every single subject out there and gobble up all the keywords. It's not going to work. That kind of stuff used to, but that kind of stuff doesn't do that well. Yeah.

Look at eHow. Gone, right? I think they're gone, right?

eHow is gone. And there's a lot of like health sites too that have just been crushed over the years. About.com no longer exists. They had to end up turning it into multiple sites and redoing the strategy and cutting most of their content. But yeah, the old concept of just writing a ton of content doesn't work well anymore.

Yeah. About.com, business.com, all of those. Right. And anyway, we can actually rant on that later, but that is it for today, guys. Marketingschool.io/school. If you're interested in learning about the education program that Neil and I are putting together, you will be on the waitlist. See you tomorrow. Stop recording. Command+Shift+R. Noah, can we have Patrick live? Patrick, make sure you put on a shirt.

Why are you telling everyone to put on a shirt?

Because, because I've been scarred before, okay?

Yeah, just give me a second. I'm gonna get him up.

Yeah.

Patrick.

Put on a shirt, Patrick.

You're allowed to talk.

Oh, Patrick is drinking his water. Can we make him a co-host?

How do I make him a— promote to panelist. There we go. And Panelists, change role.

No, you gotta make it to—

whoops, you guys just kicked him out.

Yeah, yeah, let me just do it. I'll just do it here. Um, so actually, Patrick, we'll just allow you to talk here. All right, go for it, Pat. You're unmuted. You're muted right now.

Unmuted.

He's muted. He has to unmute. Yeah.

There we go.

Hey.

How's it going?

Good.

Thanks for coming on. Thanks.

I'm trying to look for my question, actually.

So your question is, you have a bootstrap startup.

Yeah.

You have some performance arrangement.

Yeah, so I have a bootstrap startup and I'm trying to figure out how to work with agencies that work solely on performance-based Marketing. So never worked with this type of agency before, so just wanted to see if there's any tips.

Got it. Okay, I'll tell you what, we'll take your question and we'll make it into an actual episode. Does that sound good?

Yeah.

Cool. So we are gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna move you back to an attendee and then we're gonna make it a real episode. Thanks, Patrick.

Are you gonna just add in that episode and make it next episode?

Yeah, I think it's in there already.

Is it? I don't think it's in there.

It is.

Did you just add it?

Yeah. How to structure a pay-for-performance deal.

Oh yeah.

Yeah, there it is.

Anyway, withdraw co-host permission and then Patrick will move you back to attendee. Thank you. And then here we go. Let me hit record. Command+Shift+R. Let's try that. Command+Shift+R. All right, here we go. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about how to structure a performance deal, more so a pay-for-performance deal. But first we have to define what that actually means. So we're doing this live right now and Patrick Chung asked if he has any tips. So he has a bootstrap SaaS startup and he wants to know how to work with a performance-based agency. Any tips to working with one based on a performance type of arrangement? Neil, what is this pay-for-performance thing? What does this affiliate thing mean actually?

So what Patrick's trying to figure out is he's trying, instead of saying, hey, I want to go and pay an ad agency or digital marketing agency to go and do all my work, I only want to spend money every time they drive revenue. Think of like an affiliate model, but you're working with the agency who just goes and does it for you, right? Because typically you had to hire ad agencies that have a ton of staff. You can just say, hey, let me go and work with them, but instead of paying them a retainer, let me just only pay them every time they generate me a sale or a lead.

Yep. So here's how I would look at this, right, Patrick, specifically for your case. If you're looking to work with affiliates in general, what I would say first is go to people that have your traffic already. It might not necessarily be an agency. But, you know, like for example, if you're in telecoms or whatever, there's a lot of affiliate blogs out there that get a lot of traffic. Or let's say you're in the survival space and you're teaching people how to prep for doomsday scenarios. You might have a ton of articles or that blog might have a ton of articles and a ton of traffic, a lot of eyeballs that you need. And you do a partnership with them saying, hey, you know what? For every SaaS product, every free trial that you drive, I am going to pay you like, you know, $100 or something like that, right? So that's how you can structure it with a site.

Go ahead. And you yourself, you do performance-based marketing as well through your agency, no?

Yeah. So we've, we've— the way— you want to know about how we structure it? Yeah.

How do you structure it?

Yeah. So how we structure it is, let's say you are, you want to work with an agency and you want them to do paid media for you, but you don't want to pay them a retainer. So what you might say is, hey, like agency, um, I know you guys specialize in SaaS and, um, you know, we're going to pay you like for every lead that you drive, you guys run the ads, you guys take all the risk. Okay. You run the Google ads, you run the Facebook ads, you know, we'll come to an agreement on it. Um, and we're going to pay you per lead or on a per sale basis. And the agency will kind of go back and forth with you that you guys will negotiate on terms, you know, when your payment terms are and all that. Um, and then once you guys get started, the agency will just start running ads. They might have other partnerships that you might not have. They might just be better at SaaS than you are. And hopefully in the first month or 2 months, it is successful. Because usually what happens is if the performance thing is not successful pretty quickly, the person that's running it is going to give up.

Yeah. And then what other performance agencies are there out there?

Yeah. So there's a couple, and here's why I like the performance agency model. And Neil, I don't know if we'd ever talked about these numbers, but if you look at Centerfield, they are performance and they run ads for telecoms-based companies, and they also bought sales teams to help manage the entire customer journey from lead to actual conversion, and they get paid on the actual conversion. From my understanding, I mean, they're doing a couple hundred million dollars a year in revenue, and they have about 336 employees. So if you look at it, Let's just say hypothetically they're doing $500 million a year in revenue. Their revenue per employee, I believe, would be about $1.4 million or so. That's actually much higher than a traditional agency. That's a good example.

Yes, but also they have a ton of advertising expense. Their advertising costs per employee is probably through the roof though. That's fair.

Yeah. I mean, if you were to take that out, it'd probably be way lower.

Exactly.

But no, in general, I know they're doing well. I think they've raised a shit ton of money.

Yeah. They didn't raise till way later though, from private equity, I believe.

Yeah. Which usually means the founders took money off the table. But yeah, in general, this model is really good. The hardest part with working for a performance-based agency is they don't all produce results. So you got to, even if you're not spending money, you got to really figure out which ones are going to drive results and which ones aren't, and just like churn and burn until you find the right one, sadly.

That's, I mean, that's, I think that's the same thing for any type of agency, right, Neil?

Not necessarily, because when you're paying an agency, you're able to interview them more, be much more picky. With performance, there's not as many options and you really can't be too picky because you're not paying them any money upfront.

Yeah. So, I mean, what I'm basically saying is, look, agency, I mean, performance-based, it's very transactional. You either hit the numbers or you don't, or else you're out, right? I think agency too, it's kind of similar too. You can, you know, you're looking to hit some type of numbers. If you don't get it, obviously you're going to try to sack the agency. It's just, I mean, at the end of the day, you just, you're incentivizing them to get results or else they're out. So anyway, hopefully that answers your question, Pat. Go ahead, Neil.

No, that's it. Okay.

So that's it for today. And go to marketingschool.io/school if you want to get on the waiting list for the education program that Neil and I are putting together. And we'll see you tomorrow. Oh, look at that. Knowing the shortcut is powerful. Uh, Noah.

Yeah, we got, we got Stefano Romero or Jerry Chen. Both have some upvoted ones here.

So Jerry Chen is on the performance-based approach we talked about, um, so we can dismiss that one. Um, Stefano, um, we had a good chat yesterday. Let's put this guy live.

Let's do it.

Let's see.

Stefano, put on a shirt.

Allowed to talk.

Big on this shirt thing.

I haven't heard anyone say that as much as you have on a Zoom call.

Stefano, you're good to go.

Is he a co-host?

He's promoted to panelist.

Oh, you just kicked him out again.

You kicked him out again.

No, he's on a panelist. No. Oh, oh, I see. We both hit it at the same time.

I didn't hit it.

Oh.

Okay. But yeah, make him a co-host so he can show his face and all that. You're welcome, Patrick. Guys, keep throwing in your questions. Uh, Noah is quarterbacking everything. Stefano, show your face. Here, I'm just gonna make you a co-host.

There we go. I think I don't have that button.

Oh, 'cause you're a co-host, that's why.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Here, I'll make you a host. There we go.

All right.

All right, go for it, Stefano. Show your face if you can. You don't have to.

He might not be around.

There you go.

There we go. All right. Nice. Hey everyone, how you guys doing?

Good. How are you?

Good, good, good. So the question is, uh, based on the social media ads that you guys have run, Which one or which social media channel have you all seen perform the best in terms of lead gen? And is there a significant difference in lead gen from story ads versus in-the-feed ads? I'll take that one first, Neil, and then pass it to you if you want to take it. So for us specifically around Facebook and Instagram, stories are a lot cheaper right now. And so in some cases, like when we're starting the ads up and obviously the cost will go up, but sometimes story ads would be like 3 $3 to $4 for a lead. And then the newsfeed would generally be more expensive. Sometimes it might be anywhere from $9 to $12 for a specific campaign that we're running. So yeah, I think from there, it's, you know, your mileage may vary. I would just recommend, obviously, you're obviously tracking your results and you're looking at the different placements each week and constantly refreshing your ad. I think that's important. A lot of people don't think about it, but you probably have to refresh your ads every 1 to 2 weeks. If you want to be able to kind of hold your numbers steady, because we're, we're, we're doing a standup every morning, Stefano, on our ads. And we're constantly measuring, you know, if our click-through rate drops below 1% and if it's below 1% for 3 days in a row, we jump on it immediately. We're like, okay, what's the problem? And then we try to solve it.

Right.

So you gotta be like neurotic about it. Okay. So have you seen any particular channel outperform any of the others or is it—

Yeah.

So I think right now in the context of the ads I was talking about earlier, Facebook and Instagram have been working better than YouTube for us. YouTube, for whatever reason, is being wonky for us. Like we used to be able to drive leads for $6 to $7 a pop, but the quality is a little lower than Facebook because we can kind of directly target there. Gotcha. Okay.

And within your story, uh, you can pay for celebrities to— what's that site called, Eric?

Cameo.

There you go. Cameo. So use Cameo, pay some celebrities to record some stuff and start using that in your stories. You'll see your conversion rates go up. And then what you want to do is think of a story. You were trying to drive them to a landing page. Have all the things that you would have on your landing page in a story. They just have to go through multiple stories to see everything that you would have on a landing page, because then you're converting them on that platform or you're educating them on that platform versus pushing them off to your site too early. Gotcha.

Okay. Gotcha. Perfect. Thank you. All right. Thanks, Stefano. Noah, are we able to move on?

Noah's muted.

Yeah. Noah, did you go AFK?

No, I'm here. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just moving Stefano back to the—

got it—

to the attendee. Do you guys want to do one more question or you want to jump into the next one?

Let's, let's jump into it. And then I think we'll be able to, then we'll do another one. Let me hit record. We are recording. Here we go. I actually don't need to clap. I'm so used to clapping, but like, because I'm hitting record each time, I don't need to clap. So I'm just not going to clap anymore. All right. But now I have to clap because I think we're recording.

Yeah. We are recording.

Now I have to clap. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about the most impactful marketing article that Neil and I have read for 2020. So I'll go first. And Neil, you can feel free to chime in. But the one thing I read the other night, it's from this guy named Jay, J-A-Y, Acunzo. It's A-C-U-N-Z-O. I think I'm butchering the name, but again, I mentioned it 2 episodes ago. If you Google Marketing Showrunners, Experience Spectrum, you'll be able to find what I'm talking about. And I think this is probably one of the most important things I've read in a while because you realize that everyone talks about, especially we talk about this on the podcast all the time, you know, we talk about, oh, you have to produce content, you have to produce content, you have to produce content. But like you realize that there's just like this entire sea of garbage content. And people are just producing content to produce content. It's very like transactional. People are doing keyword research on Ahrefs or they're using Ubersuggest, whatever it is. And it's just, they're covering the answer right there. But the problem is when you create transactional content, what happens is people come, they get the answer and they leave and that's it. They bounce. That's it. Right. Whereas if you create an experience, transactional is the first part of the spectrum. On the very far end of the spectrum is you take people on a journey, right? It's about 8,000 words or so, but it caused me to rethink everything we do, right? It's okay, you know, how good are we at driving an experience with our blogs, with our podcasts, with the events that Neil and I do? They're all at different ends of the spectrum, like the products that I put together, right? Or the products that Neil does too. It's all about the experience. And if you don't create a good experience, if you don't obsess over the customer, your content's not going to do anything. So in that That post, it was actually talking about, you know, making like a show that people love, like a marketing podcast, which is funny because there's like no mention of us. And I'm like, man, maybe we're a very transactional podcast. I don't know. But part of me thinks that, you know, what we've been able to do with this podcast is to be able to take people— we've been able to build a community around it. So the community is right before the journey, right? So it's literally, you have a transactional piece of content. That's the first step. The second tier might be You have an expert. So I mentioned, you know, an expert might be like a sports analyst. So first tier might be sports scores. The second one might be a sports analyst giving you the scores, and that might give a little more authority there, but then you cross over to building a community. So like community example might be Neil and I doing the Growth Accelerator group that we have, right? That is creating an experience and that's creating a bond that's very hard to duplicate anywhere else. And then beyond that, you're taking people on a journey. So I really think everyone should read this that's listening to this because it will reframe how you think about things and it'll cause you to not— it'll cause you to think twice about going out there and producing content for content's sake, because that's why a lot of stuff doesn't grow. It doesn't grow that quickly. It's because it's very ho-hum BS.

Neil? Yeah. So my favorite article for, uh, the year so far, and it's actually not an article, it's a video, but it's on marketing is Russell Brunson's OTO. So if you're on YouTube, just Google or go on YouTube and search for Russell Brunson OTO. OTO stands for one-time offer. And he breaks down no matter what kind of, what kind of product service you're selling, a SaaS product subscription, e-commerce, it doesn't matter. You can make money through an upsell upon your checkout and you can have multiple upsells.

It works so well.

Do you do it?

Yeah.

And you guys already all know this, So, you know, I'm not going to say, hey, you need to add an upsell because everyone already knows that. But what he does is he breaks down the copy you should use. You don't have to be as aggressive as him. He breaks down the layout you should use and what you need to copy step by step. And it just works. And it's an easy way to make more money. And it's not rocket science. Like everyone can do it. It's super simple. If you guys have a website, you have a website because the chances are you're trying to sell something or get people to subscribe to something or generate a lead. And his process teaches you the exact page to use to make more money from whatever type of business you have doing upsells.

All right. And people can, I mean, if you guys want to see examples of this, you can go to clickfunnels.com and Russell Brunson actually has an active challenge called the One Funnel Away Challenge. And in there you can basically, you can, you know, if you want to buy his product, you can, you can, you can basically funnel hack him. That's the term that he uses to see how that one-time offer works. So yeah, I mean, I think both content pieces are worthy of checking out. It's going to get you to take action. I do recommend checking out the Traffic Secrets book as well. Russell was nice enough to send Neil and I a copy and we both read it and we liked the book. And there's a lot of good tactical information for you to take advantage of there. So that is it for today. Go to marketingschool.io/school to get in on the waiting list for the education program that Neil and I are putting together. And we will see you tomorrow. All right, Noah, let's get Radhika on because she's part of the Growth Accelerator.

Let's do it. All right, so one second. Okay, Radhika is now a co-host.

There we go.

Hey, how are you? Hey, like, make sure you have your shirt on.

I know, I was like, I was like, I don't think I can say that to a woman.

Hmm.

I guess so.

My question is simple. Like, what are your favorite tactics, marketing tactics to promote live webinars? We're involved with a bunch now that live events are canceled. So just want to hear you guys' thoughts.

Yeah. I can go first. I think one thing that I've seen actually a lot of people promoting organically is, so Roland Frasier is a good example of this from Digital Marketer and War Room. So he promoted this thing recently about mergers and acquisitions. And it's basically like a $55 paid, like it's like 5 webinars in a row. And it's basically a challenge. And he's been going live every single day. Actually, he went live today. I'm gonna make sure I watch it later. But what he did was he basically got a bunch of people to comment. It's like, hey, if you guys want to hear about this, I'm actually, I haven't put it together yet, but let me know if you want in on the interest list. I think 800 people commented. And he has a decent following. Facebook following organically, but it got so many other people in. Like when I look at the group now, there's actually 800 people that paid the $55 in addition to other upsells. And most of them are really high-caliber entrepreneurs. So it just, it seems to get the right people seeing it in Facebook and they all, it creates this feeding frenzy and the whole commenting thing obviously works on other social channels. So Neil?

Yeah. Simple ways to get more people to attend your webinars is Post about them in advance on social media. So when you post them in advance on social media, like a day before people start coming. 2, when you're doing the webinar, also go live on all the social platforms at once. Noah, what software can you use to do that? Or Eric, you may know.

Restream is a good one.

From like Zoom? If you're doing it on Zoom, you're able to go live?

Yeah. I mean, we're literally doing this right now on Zoom and we're pushing it to all the other channels right now. Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube. Uh, Noah, how much does it cost us?

It's like $19 a month or something.

Well, now we pay $49 a month. They changed the rate.

Oh yeah. But you did the annual, so we got the discount.

Yeah.

So that's another way. Then the other thing I would do is send out an email blast, a push notification blast, and then, um, try to have other people in your space be on the webinar as well. And then get them to promote it, uh, in advance as well. Cause it's an easy way to reach a new audience because if you just keep doing it to your own audience, that's fine. You will generate sales. But if you can keep bringing on a new person every single month or week, however often you do it, you're going to get them to promote it to their audience. And it's an easy way to just build up your base as well.

And don't forget about notifications too. I think Neil and I talk about it a lot. If you can send them the— sure, the email notifications are fine, like the hour before starting now, but text notifications are always good too. So if you're able to do that, you can use Twilio and combine it with Zapier and with whatever Webinar software you're using.

And the key with the notifications is 15 minutes before. That's the most important one. Not like the day before, just right before?

You—

we do the day before, we do an hour before, and 15 minutes. That gets aggressive. So if you don't want to do all of that, then I would do the day before and 15 minutes. So have you been using Facebook leads? I have. LinkedIn, I don't know if LinkedIn still has it, but they used to have something similar in the past.

Lead ads or what? Yeah.

But in general, you know, I found that doing it with other people brings you way better leads than just doing it through Facebook or anyone else. Because then they're promoting to their audience of buyers and stuff that's warm. Got it. Hey, great.

Thank you.

All right.

Thanks, Radhika.

I think I like the Restream. I was trying to figure that out.

So it's amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. Cool.

We'll catch you later. Hi. Oh, you know what's funny? No, I made you the host now, so I can't do host stuff, but I guess that's fine.

I can make you the host again if you want.

Do I? I don't think I need to be the host. I'm co-host still, right? Can you see that?

Yeah.

Yeah, just think that's co-host.

I'm fine. This is great.

All right, we can do a couple of more. We'll go with like 2 more episodes and then we'll answer a couple of questions. Joan, don't worry. We will not bring you. Joan was just hiking, so she doesn't wanna be on live.

Okay.

We'll cut you some slack there. All right, let's hit the next one. How many did we do so far? 7, 8. So 2 more and we're done.

Hit record.

Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we are going to talk about if headings really impact your rankings. So this one is in relation to Neil's surprising test results. So apparently, Neil, you've done some good tests with headings in the past. Yes?

I did. So because everyone in SEO talks about, oh, you need to have an H1 heading per page, and then an H2 for subsections, and an H3, and yada, yada, yada.

Yeah. So let's talk about— I mean, like, because, yeah, back when I first started learning SEO, it's like, oh my God, the H1 tag is the most important one, right? So what is the reality? What kind of data do you have to share?

Sure. So we did a test. I did an email blast asking who wanted to participate, sent it out to part of my list saying, who wants to participate in an SEO experiment with headings? And from that experiment, we had 61 websites that had enough traffic, because if you don't have enough traffic, it's hard to tell if a change is actually impacting your rankings or not. And each site on average had 426 pages. And then what we did is we changed a portion of their pages to see if headings had an impact. And the changes were broken down into 4 different groups. One was a control group in which you left a portion of their pages as is, whether they had headings or not, you just left them as is. So that way you can see what's happening to their traffic over time on those pages. Then with the next group, we made sure that they were using H1 headings, H2, H3, et cetera, and correctly. Then with the next group, the third one, we just used normal paragraph text and we made sure all the font sizes were the same for the whole page, believe it or not. And for the fourth group, we used normal paragraphs instead of headings and we adjusted the font sizes. So because even in paragraphs, you can have some paragraphs, some words, some phrases, larger font size than others. So those are the 4 groups.

Got it. And so practical takeaways, what can people do about this?

What we ended up learning was, look, if you use a heading versus not using a heading, we didn't see really much of a difference in traffic. But we did see a drop when you just use paragraph text and all the text size was the same. And we saw a decline in traffic compared to the other groups by roughly 6.42%. But when we tested using paragraph text, but adjusting the font sizes, so the title wouldn't be a heading, but it'd still be larger in font size, we still saw an increase in traffic. And what that led us to believe is, look, Google's not necessarily looking at headings using H1 to H2, H3s, but they are looking to see what areas of a page you're putting more emphasis on by things through larger font size. And what we also saw is when you don't— when all the text on your page has the same font size, you don't really use headings or any of that, your bounce rate roughly stays the same, but your time on site drops by roughly 12% is what we saw during our experiment. So that tells Google that, hey, your user metrics aren't as good, so it's causing people to lose their traffic. So our recommendations are you should still use headings because things like accessibility software leverages headings. And even if Google isn't specifically looking for H1, H2, H3 tag, which are heading tags, they are looking for words and phrases that are in different font sizes so they can figure out what a page is about. Which is pretty much the same concept as using a heading. It's just most of the CMS platforms out there make it easier to use heading than it does for you to manually go into the code and adjust font sizes.

I think the other thing too is if you think about a search engine and are looking for featured snippets to pull, if you don't have a heading, it doesn't make it as easy to kind of call them out, right? That's what I'm assuming.

Exactly.

Got it. All right guys, so that is it for today. Go to marketingschool.io/school to learn about the education program that Neil and I are putting together to get on the waitlist. And we will see you tomorrow. So that recording is done. And then we're going to do one more and then the rest of the time we'll do questions. Does that sound good, Noah?

Sounds great to me.

You can leave your face there if you want. Doesn't matter. All right, here we go. So let me hit record. Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Siu.

And I'm Neil Patel.

And today we're going to talk about our favorite marketing book of all time. I guess this is like forever, Neil. So what is your favorite marketing book of all time and why?

Why don't you go first? Because I know you have one. So we should actually both do separate ones.

I don't know if like I'm— it's actually kind of changing in my mind right now because— well, we'll give a little bonus right now. So reading— and by the way, I'm not paid by Russell Brunson. I'm not like an affiliate or anything. But if you're starting out with marketing or maybe you think like you could use like a tune-up, the book that just came out, Traffic Secrets, there's so many tactics in there and strategic elements that you should consider too on how you should think about marketing and business. And basically you think about like this guy bootstrapped the business to over $100 million a year in revenue. And, you know, a lot of it was built off the power of marketing first, right? I'm not saying he has a bad product. I like the product. But what I'm saying is there's a lot to learn from there. So that's kind of the little bonus. And, you know, he has these 2 other books, Expert Secrets and DotCom Secrets. DotCom Secrets is really about, you know, building different funnels. So recommend those books. I think those are very recent. I think my favorite book, it's really a toss-up right now between Breakthrough Advertising and Influence. And I'll go with influence first. I like Influence by Robert Cialdini because there's a lot of practical applications, right? Like for example, if I give you something, naturally you as a human being, you're going to owe me something, right? That's a very simple thing. Or if I ask you for something, hey, it's like, hey, can I cut you in line just because like I need to cut you in line? People are actually more likely to say yes because, you know, you gave them a reason, right? Instead of just saying, oh, did I cut you in line? Oh, can I cut you in line? So there's a lot of case studies that he's done, right? It's very scientific. And because, you know, people like myself or Neil, we love numbers, that's very practical in terms of how you should think about how you get a world in terms of getting people to do things. And that's basically marketing because you're trying to get people to do things. Neil, I'll turn it over to you before I talk about Breakthrough Advertising. I guess this is multiple books now. Yeah.

So I'll name one book and this is my favorite book of all time when it comes to marketing, which is Ogilvy on Advertising. It's by David Ogilvy. He's pretty much like the, you know, you guys have some, some of that, people have seen the TV show Mad Men. There was a guy named Don Draper. It was actually based on David Ogilvy. And in the book, he pretty much breaks everything down from like, hey, you know, here's how to get an advertising job. But more importantly, he breaks down how to write copy that people want to read. And yeah, you know, you'd be like, oh, what about an SEO book or a pay-per-click book? Look, a lot of strategies have changed over time and same with channels. But one thing that's consistent is they all require copy. And if you can write amazing copy that converts, you'll do really, really well. And this is one of the best books to read out there if you want to be amazing at copywriting.

Yeah. So the reason I wanted to close off with Breakthrough Advertising is exactly tied to Neil's point. You almost, you have to be a good copywriter because that shows that you know how to tap into people's desires, their emotions. It's just, it's an age-old strategy. And I find that a lot of the people that I follow on Twitter that I like to follow, the strongest thinkers are exceptional copywriters. The way they think about things, the way they articulate themselves, and the way they keep things very succinct. This is why I like Breakthrough Advertising because it's a timeless book. I believe it was published in the '20s. It went out of print. Now it's back in print. I think you can pay $125 for it. Or if you're, you know, if you want to be crafty, you know, I'm sure you can find like the PDF somewhere somehow. But yeah, I mean Breakthrough Advertising and you combine it with Ogilvy on Advertising, you combine it with the first book I recommended, Influence, I think you're going to be in a good spot because a lot of it is just basically you think— you're thinking about not just all the tactics that we share on this podcast, but strategically at a high level, How do you shift your mindset to becoming an exceptional copywriter? And that's how you get yourself to a really high level where you're basically unstoppable. So that's it for today. Go to marketingschool.io/school to learn about the education program Neil and I are doing. You'll be on the waiting list and we will see you tomorrow.

All right.

So let's cover, like, I don't know, a couple of questions till 4:00 PM, Noah.

Sounds good. So we got one from Joan. This is about the best free tools for blogging. So I know that we talked a lot about these tools on the podcast, but she's wondering if there's been any updates with just the way like the travel industry's tanked and all that.

So I can give 2 that we have. One is ClickFlow has a content decay tool that'll tell you what content's dying in traffic. And then you want to use that to figure out where you should focus your time and adjust first. You can use Ubersuggest for free. Both of these tools you can end up using for free to figure out what keywords you should be targeting that you're not ranking for and what content already is popular in your space that you can leverage those ideas and leverage the skyscraper technique. When it comes to writing, there's, I don't know if it's your tool that does it, Eric, but There's someone that ends up— what was that?

Content Editor.

There you go. I was trying to figure out the name. I was like, I saw it somewhere, but it gives you feedback as you're writing in real time. Um, and what's funny is it's, it's kind of similar concept to vidIQ, right? Because like vidIQ gives you feedback for YouTube, but yours more so gives you feedback for writing.

Yep. Um, yeah, I think beyond that, um, Neil and I, mutual friend in Syed, who owns, um, the All-in-One SEO plugin, it's not exactly a blogging tool, but I think You know, when you think about, um, I think I'm kind of going to the basics here in terms of making sure that your foundation is set. Um, I think that's important. And then I think the other thing around blogging tools, um, I think if you're talking about like a scheduling tool, I've always kind of, you know, I'm, I guess I need to figure out kind of what your need is exactly, but CoSchedule has always been good for scheduling. Um, if you want, if you have like a team to work around. Um, so yeah, if you can tell me your need, I think I can be a little more specific, but until then, maybe we can move to the next question.

Yeah. Got a couple of them. I like this one here. What are your thoughts around email marketing when compared to SEO, chatbots, or other forms of marketing?

I love it.

This is from Jesse Hernandez.

I think like, in today's day and age, I think it's still one of the most controllable channels that you can own. I think doing partnerships with other people, collecting, being able to share leads within following GDPR or whatever rules that you're around, I think it's huge. I mean, Neil, how big is your list? Neil spends a lot of time building his list and cleaning his list.

Neil? Yeah. So my list grows net 15,000 to 18,000 per week. So that's after scrubbing. Um, but it's pretty big. I'm getting close to— I crossed 500,000 this month. And then in 2 more months, I should cross 600,000 conservatively. My number's a little bit off here and there. And the reason being is My traffic's been fluctuating a lot because of coronavirus.

Got it. Actually, going back to Joan's thing. So she actually prefaced the question. It says, so my developer, who's also on this webinar, is working on my new landing page. I told her a free visitor tool is a great addition to the page according to Eric and Neil. Okay, so great. I bought one and then all hell broke loose with COVID-19, leaving me with the tool that I'm sure at this point will be worthless. I think Joan, that's like a separate thing, right? I think that the thing right now is, you know, if you're building this tool and then, you know, obviously there's hardships going on right now, I think it might be worth it to refocus your efforts on the things that are working right now and then leave the tool for later and you can come back to it. I think trying to force things, like, especially like when I think about, you know, with other, the different projects that I work on, right? Like on the agency side, people are like, Oh, we just need to go get more clients right now. That is being tone deaf and that's not thinking. So I'm not saying you're being tone deaf. I'm just saying you have to make sure that you're aligning with what people's needs are right now, and especially resources. You have to consider your resources too. Can you actually do the resources, put resources into the tool? I just don't think it's a good use of time right now.

Cool. I think his name is Anand. He runs a YouTube marketing agency focusing on organic growth as well as paid. In your experience, is it better to focus on organic or on the ads as your main service?

What was the question again?

Is it better to focus on organic or paid as a service?

Like as an agency selling it?

As an agency selling it, yeah.

It's easier to scale and make more money selling paid ads than it is to sell SEO. 100%. Yeah.

We'll take one more question. Is this from Justin Lester?

And the easiest way to think about it is Google generates over like $100 billion a year through paid ads and Facebook's like at $50, $60 billion plus. Taking a percentage of that makes you more money than convincing someone to do SEO.

Actually, Noah, do you want to pick the next question? It's your choice. It's Noah's choice.

All right. I like that. Noah's choice.

Let's see. Boy, there's some good ones in here. I think I like this one about— well, this is the last question. Let's talk about this guy that wants to build a personal brand here.

Read it.

So is it going to be negative if you use a site like Squarespace or do you have to use— or should you definitely use WordPress? if WordPress is going to be more complicated for you to understand. So he's trying to build his personal brand. This is Jeremy Pickler. So he's used to Squarespace and he's deciding to go back to that, but is it going to affect him because it doesn't have the same SEO power?

So I guess I can go first. So it's not necessarily— it's not that Squarespace doesn't have SEO power. I mean, domains are domains, right? There is obviously a lot more support with the WordPress ecosystem with all the plugins, like we just mentioned the All-in-One SEO plugin from Syed. You know, Neil has tools that are connected in with WordPress. I do as well. So I think WordPress has been a good all-around CMS. I'm still on WordPress kind of across the board. I think Squarespace is easier if you want to get started. I think maybe if you want to get started first, you go with that because it's a path of least resistance. It's your MVP. Once you get that going, then it's like, okay, might be worth migrating over to WordPress. The other thing I'll say too is if you're gonna get started with Squarespace, I would also recommend you take a look at Webflow. People in the tech world are really hot, not just the tech world, designers in general are really hot on Webflow. So it's really easy to build a really good-looking website, and you actually can't even tell that it's from like a website builder. Neil?

I like using WordPress just because they have a big ecosystem and you can do a lot for free. Once you are in Squarespace and you start getting more traction, you'll find that you have a lot less flexibility. And then to get a lot more flexibility, you have to start getting help, or you may not be able to even do those things, or you're going to have to spend more money. All right.

So guys, thank you so much. Guys, type 2 into the chat if you guys would like us to do this. Neil and I are recording a lot more because we have nothing better to do. Type 2 into the chat and then we'll let you know when we do this again. This was really fun. Noah, I hope you enjoyed it. Neil, I hope you enjoyed it. And we will catch you probably next week. If not, you know, till then, stay safe. You know, eat your food, eat your veggies. Neil, you have anything, any last words?

Thank you guys for all taking the time to attend. We really do appreciate it. And if you ever have any questions for us, we're here to help. I'm like waving.