#110 Making the Little Decisions: That Are Really Big

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Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leader Show. My guests today are Zena Such and Patrick Malone, who met after careers in teaching and administration and now focus on leadership development through American University. They previously co-authored the very popular Leading with Love and Laughter. Today, we're going to be talking about their new book, Little Big Decisions: A Leader Imperative for Lasting Impact. So welcome to the show, you guys.

Thank you. We're so happy to be back.

Yes.

Thank you so much, Erika.

Oh, you're so welcome. I'm really fascinated by the premise of your new book. As we were talking a little bit before the podcast started, it really resonated for me. There are these decisions that you think are small and daily and that They make a big difference. So very excited. And I think our listeners will find your insights about this kind of decision-making really valuable. So you ready to talk?

Absolutely ready to go. What would you like to know first?

Well, OK, so in the new book, you talk about the little big decisions that can be critically important for a leader, for any leader. So can you explain that idea to us a little more?

When Zena and I were talking about the idea behind this book, we were talking about decisions that our bosses were making at the time. And we're like, oh my gosh, they think that's such a big decision, but that's not the one that matters. This is the one that really matters. And we fell into this discussion about how there are decisions that are out there that leaders make all the time. And it might be something like doing performance appraisals or recruiting or budgeting or any of those things, strategic planning. And those are all important decisions. One could argue that they're big decisions and they make a difference in the organization, but do they make the biggest difference in the organization? We see them as big decisions because they're usually surrounded by a lot of excitement and maybe some involvement with governing boards and pomp and circumstance.

Mm-hmm.

But we were really focusing on what about the other decisions that leaders make every single day, all day long, that are really what people might think of as little decisions that have a more important impact on the organization. And we termed those little big decisions. And the reason being, they're really small decisions. They're very easy to make. They don't take a lot of time, but they have a very big impact. And we argue in the book that they have a bigger impact on the organization than a bad strategic planning decision or a bad budget decision. Those things we can always overcome. But you can't overcome toxicity in an organization. That's a lot harder to deal with. So it's the little big decisions that we thought were the important ones and the ones that we should focus on.

Okay. And then what are some of the markers? And I know you explain this in the book, but what are some things that distinguish Little big decisions from little, little decisions, decisions that really are small and don't make that much difference.

We took a look at some of these little decisions and what are the factors that impact those. And we did look at the level of emotion that's involved. A lot of it has to do with interactions with people and the more personal or more intimate or more caring, empathetic, when you start showing those feelings, When you're making these decisions, what we're finding is that those decisions are the ones that impact the employees, the team, the real resources of your organization, which are your people. And so those are some of the factors that we were looking at when it involves that little moment of a gut feeling that you have that someone needs your time, for example, or somebody needs you to encourage them in a way that they haven't been encouraged.

Okay, so a lot of these important small decisions have to do with human interaction, have to do with other people and how you're affecting them.

Yeah, absolutely. And I would add that I think the little big decisions, the ones that we argue for, are probably easier to miss. They're easier to miss because they're that moment where you would have to be cognizant enough of what's going on to be able to give that pat of encouragement or something. And so they'd be easy to miss and easy to ignore because we think, oh, that doesn't really matter. But what really matters is the fact that the board is breathing down my neck about our strategic plan. They seem like they're little, but they're huge.

So they require that kind of court sense. You have to really be aware of what's going on around you and with your team and with the people and with the context that you're operating in.

Absolutely.

Let's go to the dark side. What bad things happen if leaders don't attend to these kinds of decisions?

Well, Patrick kind of alluded a little bit to it by using the word toxic environment, right? So some of these little decisions that we make, what we're finding are those are the ones that are building those relationships with your employees. They're building trust within the organization. There's a sense of caring, comfort, psychological safety, all those really positive words when you are making decisions to give your time, for example, and you're doing a little extra one-on-one with somebody who's in need at that moment, right? If we're not doing that, what we're finding is that environment is becoming cold. And it's becoming one in which employees are not as engaged. Employees aren't as creative. All of those things that make an organization super successful, we're seeing the opposite of that.

Yeah.

People are shutting down. People are going into their shell. They're becoming these individual cogs not being seen as part of a big whole.

Oh, that's terrible, but a great distinction. And the epidemic of low engagement that we're seeing in organizations, I bet a lot of that is a result of these kinds of decisions not being attended to properly.

Exactly.

I would think, as I'm listening to you talk, that there are a lot of these little big decisions that have to do with client interactions too.

Absolutely. When you're sitting with a client, we're looking to find out what are their needs, right? How are we going to fill those needs? But there are so many different types of needs. Of course, there's the organizational needs, and then there's the relational needs. How do we interact with others? How do we lead others? How do we ensure that our relationship is a trusting one, an authentic one? But then there's those subtle needs that maybe someone isn't going to come out and share with you directly. And so we're looking for those little signs. And in that moment, are you making a decision to pay attention to that sign that you're witnessing? Are you observing what you need to be observing in order to truly identify that gap that exists?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as I'm listening, a lot of it, I would think, comes down to curiosity. Like, I wonder what's going on with this person, right?

Exactly. That's chapter 3. Yeah, chapter 3.

All right, great minds, I guess.

Yeah, exactly.

And about clients too, Danny Meyer, who's a longtime client of ours and has written a wonderful book called Setting the Table about hospitality. He says something, and I'm reminded of what you guys are saying, that it's not whether or not you make a mistake with a customer, it's what happens immediately afterwards. And those are the key decisions that you make about how you're gonna respond to that mistake. Are you gonna apologize? Are you gonna try and figure out how to make it right? Or are you just gonna try and blow it off? You know?

Right, right.

Absolutely. Oh, this is great. So we always promise practicality. So what practical steps, from your point of view, can leaders start taking, like, now as they're listening, to be more aware of and then effective in responding to these kinds of decision points?

So we broke the book up into chapters, and each of these chapters have a focal point. And within that focal point, we also give the little ending where we say, try this. So that's related to that chapter. Some of those areas of practicality are looking at time. Who do you give time to? What kind of time do you give? So a leader's most precious commodity is time.

Yeah.

And we all know this, that when somebody, a supervisor or even someone who's trying to meet your needs, when they give you time, when they drop everything and give you that moment of time that you might need, whether it's a response of, don't know what's happening yet, but we're going to let you know. That impact for that person and for those that you're working with is unbelievable. I mean, we think about customer service, right? How long does it take for someone to pick up the phone when you've got an issue and someone is— you're looking for an answer, you're looking for an ear. So we look at things like, okay, how much time are you giving someone? You brought up curiosity. Curiosity is another one. It's great to ask questions, but are you asking questions in a way that makes people defensive, where you're challenging them? Or are you truly coming from the perspective of, I really want to understand. I want to understand you. I want to understand what's going on. I want to see it at a deeper level. I'm very curious. And that real curiosity. And so we give some tips in the book of how do you approach that? How do you tap into inner curiosity that we as children have? Obviously, that's how we learn and grow. But somehow we work our way. So we talk about curiosity. We talk about encouragement.

Yeah.

And it's not just saying, great job, but it's looking deeper. What does this person need? Because we're seeing something where we have to step in and identify what is that motivation, that intrinsic motivation that maybe we've seen dwindle, and what is it that they need from us for us to be able to tap into that talent or that value of that employee, value of what's going on within the organization. We talk about forgiveness. And that's a tough one for a lot of people. And maybe in an organization or when you're working with colleagues or clients, you don't think about forgiveness. But forgiveness is a huge piece of us being able to move forward.

Yes.

To actually affect change, whether it's on an individual level or organizational level, we have to forgive ourselves. We have to forgive those around us. What does that really look like in a work setting? How much patience do we bring to that process? And then, the very last one is what we call protection. And in most cases, people want to feel protected by your leadership and safe.

Safe, yeah.

So, what action steps are you taking? What decisions are you making What are those little decisions that you're making on a spur of the moment to show that you are creating a safe space for people, that you are protecting those around you, be it clients or employees?

That's great framing. I love encouragement, curiosity, protection. These are great. So let me ask another kind of subsidiary question. Leaders are usually— they have a momentum. They're just moving forward. What are one or two kind of flashing lights, things that they can look for that will make them stop And go, oh, wait, wait, I got to attend to this. There's something going on here. I'm going to have to decide.

I think the first one would be assessing, because one of the things that seems to be working through all the chapters is the idea of how they spend their time and figuring out if they're short of time, if they're constantly short of time, if they're constantly complaining about, I don't have enough time, that should be a flashing light because Everyone can make that claim, right? But there's something there that needs to be delved into a little bit more deeply. Does that one make sense to you?

Okay.

That's helpful because I agree with you and it probably means they're not delegating enough or they have some kind of a savior complex or whatever. There's all kinds of reasons why they might feel all the time overwhelmed with time. Yeah, that's good.

I think another one would be if everybody's agreeing with you all the time, it should be such an alarm. That should be such an alarm. And one of the things that we say in the chapter on curiosity is that we should be asking questions to learn. We shouldn't be asking questions to try to get to a quick solution. And when we're asking questions to get to a quick solution, then, you know, people are going to agree. And especially when you're the boss, I think that's another really important one because there's no way that we can absolutely be right all the time. And it's like, oh yeah, boss, absolutely. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. It's like, okay, something's wrong here. Hold on.

What's that? I think that's a really good point, Patrick, because when people are just in that kind of agreement mode, you're not going to be able to see some of those decisions that need to be made because they're not going to raise those questions.

That's another point that we bring up throughout the book is you won't necessarily be able to see these things unless you really do practice— and I know this word is used a lot recently— but mindfulness, being present in the moment. How much time— because Patrick brought up time— it's not just how are you spending your time with others and on what projects and your to-do list and your calendar. Because you can look at somebody's calendar and be like, There's just no way a person has time to breathe or eat lunch or make a phone call.

Yes.

But what are we doing in that moment? Can we stop the clock for just a moment? Because in that moment, and when you're bringing yourself to being present, is when you might be able to see those things that you're missing.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I think that's exactly correct. And the best leaders I've known No matter how much they have going on, they have that capability to just stop themselves and just say, okay, what's happening right now? Well, this is great. We always promise that we'll keep it short and sweet. Now I want to ask you 15 more questions. So yeah, but thank you so much.

Well, thank you, Erika. We really appreciate it. And we'll be sending you a copy of the book.

So, oh, wonderful. Wonderful. Because I think this is a really fresh take on decision-making and on on important decisions that might just fly under the radar a little bit. So this is great.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. And listeners, you can find out more about Patrick and Zena, their work and their books, both their books at suchmalone.com, S-U-T-C-H-M-A-L-O-N-E dot com. And you can buy Little Big Decisions at Amazon starting in October. So to find out how Proteus supports leaders and their teams to decide and act with clarity and heart, You can just go to Proteus-International.com. So thanks again, you two. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

And thank you all for listening. And until next time, here's to creating the life you truly want.

We hope you're feeling better equipped to create the career, the business, and the life you want. To find out more about how we support our clients in leadership, learning and change, visit us at proteus-international.com. Have an excellent day, and thanks for listening.