#111 Facilitation Excellence

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Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leader Show. I'm your host, Marie-Olive, and I'm especially excited about today's episode because I get to talk with a dear colleague of mine and a friend, Charisse Miklo. Charisse is a Director of Facilitation Excellence here at Proteus International, and has spent more than 25 years helping leaders level up, not just by teaching them what to do, but by showing them how to show up. She's trained and coached thousands of managers across industries like tech, banking, pharma, and media, helping technically brilliant people become truly impactful leaders. And now Therese is a co-author of a powerful new book, The Facilitation Advantage, which breaks down the mindsets and skills leaders need to run high-impact meetings and shape meaningful conversations that actually move the business forward. Therese, welcome to the show.

Oh, I'm so excited for this conversation, Marie.

I'm so glad you're here. And let's dive in right away, starting with the why. You've spent your career helping leaders become great facilitators, and now you've co-authored that book. What inspired you to write this book, and why do you think this topic is relevant right now?

Yes, I think that what I started to see as I worked with leaders was a consistent gap, and that being that leaders are expected to do more now than ever. They're expected to influence and guide and align large groups of people, and added to that, do it across geographies, do it across high-stakes situations. And what I found is that there's a skill set that is aligned to that, that most leaders don't necessarily have because they've been focused on their subject matter expertise, their domain knowledge. And so now that you have to operate in a much more complex environment, you need additional skills.

And I really like what you said around that global kind of challenge and complex environment because there's a, a lot of misalignment in all this. So what are those skills?

Well, first of all, that made me think of another thing, and that is when Kat Koppen and I first started to write the book, we struggled with the term facilitate because we think it has many different meanings. And so what are the skills that go into that? And what we discovered that I loved was that the Latin root of the word facilitate is to make things easier, render less difficult. And I think that the best leaders today know how to do that. They make it easier for people to buy into their ideas, easier for people to adapt to change, easier to get the resources that they need. And so the skills that underlie this aren't skills that I think we think of as a teacher or a professional facilitator. They're the practical skills that enable you to get things done with and through others.

That's quite a surprise because learning about this word, make it easier, is actually very aligned with Proteus' mission, because we have as a mission to make it easier for leaders to move toward the hopeful future. Right. Right. And so it's about facilitation, and that's really at the core of what we do.

Yeah, I think there's just so much complexity and so much noise in organizations these days. And, you know, the way Proteus helps clients and give the skills to help cut through that noise and be able to influence in a really effective way are the skills that we're going to need in the future.

Now, if I'm a leader and, you know, I need to lead meetings, but I want to move to facilitating, moments with my team, how do I make that shift?

I think the most practical thing to think about is how you run your meetings. And here's the truth of what I've seen in watching hundreds and hundreds of meetings is that most leaders are focused on driving the agenda. They're focused on their priorities and not necessarily what's happening in the room. And I mean virtual room or in-person room. And They're pushing through bullets, pushing through the topics, but not really focused on the silent frustration, the silent signals that we often get that tell us people aren't bought in, or they have questions, or they're concerned. And maybe you relate to this, Marie. This has happened over my career. There's the meeting after the meeting. You know the one?

Yeah.

Where I bet a lot of times people came into your office after the meeting and thought like, OK, what did they mean by that? Do they really think that that's possible to accomplish? And like, who do they think they are? And I think what the shift is, is to be able to focus on the unspoken that needs to be discussed in a meeting, as opposed to what typically happens, which is that stuff lingers and it takes a lot longer to get people on board and overcome some of the obstacles.

So first of all, you need emotional intelligence because you need to pick up those cues in the room. And then if you do, how do you deal with those?

Right. Yeah, I think that one of the first things that we cover in the book that's a really practical way to address that is the skill of listening. And I think oftentimes as leaders, we are expected to have the answers. We're expected to give the solutions and offer the guidance. And while I think that's always going to be true, I think we over-index on that. And so, I think the skill to counterbalance the focus just on the agenda and the topic is to now become more aware of and draw people out and not just accept the passive head nod as a signal that you can move on and people are bought in.

Listening is the core of the modules we do in the leadership development practice at Proteus. And listening is not just staying silent, it's actually also restating and asking powerful questions, curious questions.

It is. And you know, Marie, the one question, if I could wipe off the face of the earth, it would be this one: does anybody have any questions? Does anybody have any questions? Why, in your opinion— I'm sure you've sat in many meetings and that's been asked— why do you think that doesn't work? That's not a very effective question.

I mean, first of all, it's a close-ended question. And people feel judged just by the framing of that question. And so I would definitely ask more open-ended questions, invite people to a conversation versus shutting it down a little bit.

Yeah, I agree. I think that question is one we've heard so often that we don't think it has any meaning anymore. And it feels perfunctory, not very curious. And so the one thing all of us can do to drive a different interaction is to ask a better question. And it might be something like— and so instead of, does anybody have any questions, it might be, what haven't we discussed yet that's important to put on the table right now?

Mm-hmm.

Or how is this resonating with you compared to what we did last year? Those are genuinely going to be experienced to people as conversation starters and not necessarily just seeking head nods. And that's where you really can solve root cause issues or problems. As opposed to skimming the surface and thinking we're all on board, only to find out a week later, 2 weeks later, next quarter, that people really weren't on board with the idea or aren't moving as fast as you expected them to.

And for a lot of people, sometimes it's counterintuitive that listening skill and asking questions also bring executive presence to the table.

It's so counterintuitive. Erika Andersen, the founder of Proteus, said this to me many years ago, and it always stuck. She said, listening is like Clark Kent. Meaning it's Superman. It is the most powerful skill.

In disguise.

Yes, in disguise. We don't think of it like, oh, I sit in how many meetings a day and all I do is listen. But when we're talking about listening in the way Proteus approaches listening, it's a much deeper skill. And I never was taught listening skills in school or graduate school. And I don't think most of us have formally learned how to Listen deeply and have it as a skill, as you said, to show up with actually more presence and more confidence versus feeling like I have to say something smart in every meeting.

It's also very important in the boardroom. And people who master that skill, they're more listened to in the end.

Oh, it's, yeah, it's that counterintuitive part.

Now, many of our listeners lead complex teams across functions and geographies. So what are some common mistakes you see them doing when they facilitate?

Mm-hmm.

And how can they avoid them? Mm-hmm.

I think that some would be tailoring your content and message to your audience. I think that, as I coach a lot of people, what I find is that subject matter experts, really those that are expert in their fields, tend to come into meetings thinking about, again, not just their agenda, but they're not necessarily thinking about their audience. Am I speaking with board of directors? Am I speaking with senior leaders? Am I speaking with investors? Am I speaking with new hires? And so the first thing is, as you're preparing for any meeting or discussion, be thinking first about who is my audience and how do you tailor to that audience? I think the best skill that we could all be building is the skill to expand our choices moment to moment when we're with different audience members, When we are asked a curveball question that we weren't expecting.

Yeah.

When we're seeing that we're losing people's attention, or we can tell that there's something under the surface. I think if leaders can be better at extending the choices they have, the more effective they are versus what I think we all do, which is we fall into patterns, we fall into our habit, we do the things that make us comfortable.

And I believe to be able to do that, you need humility because maybe you went into that meeting, into that presentation with a plan, and you have to change the plan because you're picking up what the audience is sending to you. And I think people who are able to do that really command respect.

I think that's what I like about the body of work is that we're not telling people to necessarily change. We're telling them to have more capability so that whatever moment or situation they find them in, they have more choice. So for instance, if you're the 8th meeting of the day, and let's face it, everybody's tired, everybody is worn out, and you want to make sure your point gets made and is engaging with people, well, that is a choice. You could just offer details. You could stop and ask a question and invite commentary so that it engages people and maybe adds a little bit of energy.

Mm-hmm.

You could tell a story because story is sticky and people are tired, and it's much more memorable to tell a story sometimes than just to offer data. And so that's, I think, the trick for us all is how can we add more options to what we do and what we bring to groups versus rely on the one or two things that helped us get to the place we are today.

And being comfortable with those unplanned moments where you need to, as you said, expand your choices.

Yeah.

I love the storytelling capability. Maybe we can dive into that a little bit more, because to me, this is a skill that you can prepare for and thinking about your audience, what stories would resonate with them. And you need to really think through those. It has to be relevant for that audience. You cannot always use the same stories.

It's true. It's true.

Can you talk a little bit about that skill?

Yeah. And I have to give credit to Kat Coppett, my co-author and also a partner to Proteus, because she came from an improv background, a formal theater-trained professional, and brought a lot of the storytelling concepts and frameworks from that area. And what I've even learned over time is that, one, you have to be able to define and create a story that people can see themselves in, so that they are engrossed in it and could imagine themselves as the main character. And that every good story has a framework, very similar to if you watch Pixar movies or any movie basically follows a framework of what must happen, the beginning situation, then the— an event or something that breaks The routine, and then what happens from there, and then, of course, the climax. And so, it's simpler than it might sound in that just good stories have those beats to them. And the more we can frame stories, as opposed to just think they'll come to our minds at a perfect time, the better. So my one tip is, you do have to plan your stories a bit to ensure that they have the maximum impact. And the second thing is, you have to practice your stories a lot.

Mm-hmm.

I use some stories, Marie, that I know I've repeated hundreds and hundreds of times, and I've learned to curate them and leave out elements or add emotional interest so that I can see on the faces of people that I'm interacting with that they're totally drawn in, or even they have an emotional reaction. That's only come by pre-planning your story and then repeating it and finding what works and changing it.

I think it's powerful. And actually, coming from the media industry myself, we talk very openly about the story spine, which is the model used by Pixar and Disney to build all these stories. And those key elements, they're there in all powerful stories. You need a hero, you need enemies, you need obstacles.

Right.

I often tell my students when I teach storytelling, you cannot have a story where there are no problems, there are no obstacles. Nobody's interested in that. So yes, Knowing what works and what are those key elements of a story, then preparing, thinking about who is going to listen to those stories, I think, helps you be that powerful facilitator when you're in the room.

I've watched you tell many good stories in front of leaders. And the other thing I'll add that I see you do often is you create tension. The way you pause through the story and almost leave everybody a bit on a cliffhanger, and they're, well, what happened next? And then the second thing is you also have a gift of helping people see themselves as the main character in that story. And so I think the more stories feel relevant to you, there's more connection to you and to the situation. And I think what you offer is more credible because it resonates in a way that just telling facts won't.

Thank you. That means a lot what you said, because, you know, when my purpose when I share those stories is I want those women Especially to think, oh, this happened to Marie, this could happen to me, and I can overcome it. You know, I want people to feel empowered and hopeful as they could see their career, their future.

Well, that makes me think of one other thing I think that you do. It demonstrates a level of vulnerability that draws people to you. And I think that we appreciate stories where there is hardship, like you said, where something went wrong, Where all seemed to be lost and we pulled it out of the fire. And I think that's another draw on facilitation skills, to be seen as relatable and connected to people and vulnerable in a way where we feel more equal with each other.

My master and inspiration on that topic is Brené Brown. And she talks about vulnerability as a key leadership trait and encourages leaders not to be afraid to share those vulnerable moments. And I think it's It's so true. And when I started doing it, I felt terrified initially. And then I was like, oh, but I can connect to my team members and audiences in a much deeper, authentic way.

So it's worth it. It is. And it goes even beyond stories. Sometimes as the leader, it's also acknowledging when you don't have the answer. Or acknowledging when this is hard for you too, or maybe taking down the mask a little bit. So people also see you as someone experiencing change as well, or that you're empathizing with how others might feel. So it's such a valuable skill and capability that I think that we just crave more and more from our leaders.

Now, one thing I see you do so well when we facilitate together events is how you elevate people in the room and dive into that wisdom in the room. Can you talk about that skill? How do you do that? Because people want to speak up.

I'll give you 3 things that all your listeners could apply immediately. And the first is mindset, how you come into any meeting or situation and what you're thinking. So, for instance, if you're thinking, I better not screw this up, or I better sound like I know what I'm talking about, or I better get this all out in the way I'm imagining. It leans you towards focus on yourself versus focus on what's happening for other people. So, the first thing, and again, I attribute this to the Proteus founders, Erika Andersen and her partner, Jeff Mitchell, teaching me this, is the mindset of the wisdom is in the room.

Mm-hmm.

And that might be counterintuitive to some of you who think, but, well, I don't know if that's true. I think I'm actually the one that has to have the answers and information, but I would encourage us all to think about it differently, and that is that If you want engagement, then there has to start with a mindset that I genuinely want to hear from this group of people. They have something of value to add. And that's the first thing, I think, because it will display itself in how you engage. If your mindset is there's wisdom in the room versus I better sound perfect or don't screw up. So that's the first thing is it all starts from inside. The second thing is to draw people out. It requires you to acknowledge what they're bringing to the party. And because most people in spaces are also having their own self-talk chatter of, is this safe to speak up? What will they think if I bring this up? And so to help them get into a place of feeling that they have value to add and they can add, it then comes to questions and how you're listening below the surface. So, Pausing more. Oftentimes when we're nervous and we have a lot to do and the clock is ticking, we talk very fast. First thing you can do is— what I try to do is pace myself and more pauses.

Yes, being comfortable with silence, right?

Yes, it's hard, but if you create space of silence for people, while it may feel uncomfortable for you, it feels really helpful to others because you're giving them a moment to pause and Yes. Versus talking over it. So that would be another area I think we can all focus on, as well as listen beyond the words. Listen to body language. Notice even virtually you can see this, right? When someone who's talking now pulls away and crosses their arms and looks down, you can call that out in a way that is still respectful to people. But I might say, Marie, Tell me what you're thinking right now, and invite you to maybe say something that you are concerned about articulating. And then I think the last thing I would say is that you have to serve the purpose and not your ego. And sometimes that means that there's your agenda and there's the group's agenda. And often those 2 things are in conflict. This happens a fair amount with me where I know what I'm going to say. I know what we have to accomplish in the time we have.

Mm-hmm.

But then when you open the door for people to really interact with you, you're going to find that they may have other priorities than yours.

Yeah.

And I think a good leader knows when to off-road and be able to invite those perspectives. And, OK, we need to talk about this first because if we don't overcome these obstacles, they're not going to want to listen to what I have to say. So it's the skill of being able to read the room and then know, how do I have to pivot? To achieve the ultimate outcome, not necessarily my outcome, but the outcome of the group and the larger deliverable or endpoint that you want to get to.

This is so practical and we love leaving our listeners with practical tips that they can apply from today. So, let's see if I remember all of them. But first, it starts inside. So, you need to think that there is wisdom in the room. So people will feel that they're valued and they'll be invited to contribute, and that will work better than if you think you need to have all the answers. So that's number one, right?

Mm-hmm.

The second one is about pausing and being comfortable with silence. And so pacing yourself, breathing, all those techniques, people will feel that silence. Potentially. And the third one, remind me.

It's serving the larger purpose, managing your needs and agenda with the group's needs. So in a way, it's how you keep on track with the group balanced with your agenda.

You're serving them as a priority and you keep that in mind, which is similar to coaching. As a coach, we're not supposed to have an agenda. We're here to serve the coachee. And I think maybe that mindset helps also to facilitate.

I think that's a great point because facilitation, back to the definition of to make things easy, we've talked about it in larger groups or situations or meetings, but you're facilitating this conversation right now. It happens in every interaction that you have in one-on-ones or with small groups or in a group of 100 people. So it's really universal.

Even in sales.

Oh, definitely in sales.

Sales excellence is facilitation excellence in disguise, I believe.

Yeah. Yes, for sure.

But thank you so much, Jeri. Your wisdom, your clarity, your deep commitment to empowering others continue to inspire me, just as they did when we first worked together. And I've learned so much from you. Well, I'm forever grateful.

I'll say one final thing. You and I both love Pilates, and I think of facilitation very much like a practice. And that is, there's always more to learn. There's always more circumstances and situations. And I think there's nothing better than having a partner like you or a trusted advisor, if you're co-facilitating or leading, to help you get better and give you feedback and continue to grow. I hope others have the same kind of benefit from a relationship like ours.

Yes, I'm very lucky to be in Geri's club, as you say. Now, if you want to learn more about Thierry's work and the Facilitation Advantage, head over to the facilitationadvantage.com website for a self-assessment. And as always, for more tools and insights to help you lead with impact, visit us at produce-international.com. Now, thank you for listening, and until next time, here's to co-creating the facilitative leadership you truly want. Thank you.

We hope you're feeling better equipped to create the career, the business, and the life you want. To find out more about how we support our clients in leadership, learning, and change, visit us at proteus-international.com. Have an excellent day, and thanks for listening.