In this episode of the Proteus Leader Show, host Erika Andersen interviews Laird McLean, partner at Proteus International and head of the organizational transformation practice. McLean explains why "the human side of selling" is essential for consulting and sales success. He describes two dimensions: first, recognizing that organizations are made of people, so sales conversations must dig beyond surface symptoms to uncover root causes; second, acknowledging the personal fears, doubts, and motivations of the individual client. He shares a story of a new CEO calling on New Year’s Eve, illustrating how even senior leaders need trusted partners to navigate high‑stakes change. McLean contrasts this human‑centric approach with consultancies that focus solely on technical expertise and “the answer,” warning that without addressing people’s mindsets, skills, and emotions, solutions rarely get adopted. He emphasizes that successful selling is a collaborative, detective‑like process driven by curiosity, active listening, and giving clients control, which builds trust and makes them feel seen. Practical advice for sales professionals includes cultivating curiosity, listening for what is said and unsaid, validating understanding, sharing relevant experiences, and co‑creating solutions so clients become owners of the change. The conversation reinforces Proteus’s philosophy of partnering with clients as equal advisors rather than merely delivering answers.
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Welcome to the Proteus Leader Show, a podcast for forward-looking leaders driving transformation in their organizations, within their teams, or for themselves. Your host today is a senior leader at Proteus International, a firm that partners with companies around the world to make true transformation easier through change consulting, leadership development, and executive coaching. If you're looking for fresh perspectives and practical insights, can take back to work today, you're in the right place. Enjoy the episode.
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leaders Show. My guest today is Laird MacLean, my dear colleague and partner at Proteus. He's also head of our organizational transformation practice and our sales leader. Before joining Proteus, Laird co-founded MacLean Global Consulting, and earlier in his career, he served as the director of global learning and development at Boston Scientific. He was also a change management consultant at Andersen Consulting, now Accenture, where he helped clients plan for and address the human side of business transformation. So welcome to the show, Laird.
It's great to be here with you, Erika.
I'm so proud to have you as my friend and my partner, and I'm also proud of our relationships with our clients, some of which are 20 or 30 years long. So I think your insights about the art of selling and how we approach it will be really valuable for our listeners.
Looking forward to the conversation.
Let's dive in. We've always said at Proteus that we focus on the human side of selling as well as the technical and the financial aspects. Can you explain what that means to you and why you think it's important?
Yeah, I think about it in 2 ways, Erika. The first is we're in the people business, and so when we're talking to a prospective client or a client about one of their challenges, a lot of the conversation kind of hones in on the people side of things. Organizations made up of people and the complexities that come with that. Teams of people and how they work together or don't work together so well. Leaders who are leading people. And so when we're having a conversation with a prospective client, a lot of it is about what is actually happening as opposed to what the symptoms are and really trying to understand what is at the root of the challenges they're experiencing. And so that's, that's one aspect of it. The other is, you know, as we're talking to a prospective client, we're talking to a human, right? And they're calling for outside help because they have a challenge that they need help with. And so it's about sometimes the need that they have, but it's also some of the things that they're experiencing personally, which may be they have some fear with regard to what could happen. There's uncertainty, there's doubt. And so as you're talking to them, it's important to really acknowledge and try to understand what their need is, what their motivation is, what some of their personal challenges are. An example of this is I got a phone call from one of our longtime clients on New Year's Eve day.
Wow.
She actually heard that she got the job at a high visibility organization as CEO and was really excited about it. It was something that she feels very passionate about. And at the same time, they're experiencing a lot of challenges. And so she had some anxiety about what was going to happen and was looking for some guidance and some help. Even at the highest levels, or maybe especially at the highest levels, people need a trusted partner that they can rely upon to help them go through some high-stakes issues and changes within their organizations.
Wow, that's such a great explanation. As I'm listening to you, it's what it seems to me you're saying is that this approach, what we call the human side of selling, incorporating that, it 3-dimensionalizes the whole process. So you're looking at the business in a more 3-dimensional way, and you're dealing with the human being on the other side of the table in a more 3-dimensional way.
And they're interconnected. The person in the organization is again trying to understand what the dynamics are, what the root causes are, what they can do to address them. And so they are part of the organizational system as a whole and need to be part of the solution as well.
And I can see, and I certainly experienced that in the past when I was selling, that it's very satisfying and gratifying for the other person to feel like they're seen as a whole person and not just like the little work chunk of themselves.
Yeah, and to your point, we have a lot of really great relationships with our clients, and I think part of that is because we partner with them on an equal footing and we're a trusted advisor to them in terms of being able to kind of express some vulnerability and to really try to work with us to figure out the best way forward to serve their organizations as leaders.
So let's go to the dark side. In your experience, what happens when consultancies and service providers ignore that? Just don't focus on the human side in their selling approach.
Yeah, as I mentioned, people reach out externally for help for a number of reasons, and some of the consultancies are really focused on expertise in the industry, expertise in the marketplace, expertise with regard to organizations. And so what they tout is having the answer. And what I like to talk to clients about is how do you really derive value out of the things you're doing, whether it be implementing a strategy, implementing a new technology with new processes, because you can have the right answer but never actually get to implementation. And the only time you really get truly to deriving value from those changes or those things you're doing is when people accept them, adopt them, and integrate them into their ways of working every day. And often consultancies fall short of that because they think their job is to give the answer. We think our job is to partner with our clients to help them integrate those answers, so to speak, into everyday business as usual.
Oh, that's great. So that's where it really goes, not only to acknowledging the human aspect, the humanity of that person, but the human aspects of any solution, any answer. And if a consultancy, as you're saying, and I really agree with this, if a consultancy or a service provider just insists on only focusing on those right technical answers, It's likely that they're not going to be able to be implemented in a way that works.
Yeah, often those answers challenge people's mindsets. It challenges them, and they have some fear and anxiety over not having the right skills to perform in the new way. It may challenge what they like about their jobs, you know, the relationships they have, if there's a change in terms of structure, for example, or the degree to which they have access to leadership. And so all those things have to be taken into account when talking about how to implement the solution such that people really hold on to it. And part of that is, we always say it's the how you do it. You know, you need to engage those people, you need to listen to them, give them a degree of control in the process such that they will ultimately embrace and adopt the new way of doing things.
That's great. And again, as you're speaking, the how of How you talk to the client about that too, you know, because you want them to understand that they're a critical part of the solution and how they see it and what they think. What you said before is really true. I think Proteus consultants and salespeople, we almost never just hand people an answer. We say, okay, you and me, human beings, we're going to figure this out and we're going to figure out in such a way that it works for the people in the organization. Yes, that's right.
That's right.
Okay, we always say we're gonna be practical. So what advice would you give? What can sales professionals do to balance their efforts more toward the human if they're not doing that now?
Yeah, it's interesting. When I first got into consulting on my own and with Proteus, I thought that selling was about kind of bringing answers to the table, being the expert from the beginning. And what I learned pretty quickly is that what you're trying to do is to have a conversation with the prospective client to really engage in collaborative problem solving. And so what that requires is a great degree of curiosity. Your job is almost like a detective, right?
Yeah.
Someone's coming to you with a set of symptoms or things that are happening, and your job is to really kind of get underneath and try to understand and identify what it is that's causing those things. And that happens through just being curious, listening to the things that are being said, listen for the things that are not being said, and kind of acknowledging those and trying to identify what's going on there. And so that's the first thing is just being really curious. So the second piece is really being an excellent listener. And I've learned so much from you about this, Erika. It means being engaged in the conversation, being attentive to the person's body language, their tone, restating what they're saying so that you make sure you're Validating your understanding of what they're trying to communicate to you. It's showing interest. And what that does is a couple of things. One is helps you to really understand the situation better, but it also engenders trust in the person you're talking to, because what the person wants is someone who cares, someone who will be a partner in helping them solve their problem. And active listening is such a great way to build that trust.
Hmm, man, that really Touches my heart. I love it so much because it's so true and accurate and practical and counterintuitive. I think a lot of people who are trained to be salespeople, they may have had some pass at curiosity and listening, but to think that, oh no, these are your most important skills as a salesperson. You know me, I couldn't agree more.
What that does too is it really sets you up then to have a response that is relevant to them. that they can relate to, sharing with them experiences of others that you've helped in similar situations, and so that it gives them confidence that what you're suggesting can be effective. And so all that stems from being curious and listening.
100%. And also that when you really are truly curious and you really are actually listening, the person on the other side of the table is going to feel Deeply understood.
Yes.
And that is such a core human need and one that very seldom gets addressed in sales situations. I can't tell you how many times over the last 30 years I've had people go— I'll listen and then I'll kind of summarize what they're saying and they go, yes! It's almost like this, oh my God, finally somebody gets what I'm saying, right? Yeah.
And you talk about the human side of selling. It's such a deep human need to be seen. And so that's why it's so important to have really strong listening skills. Yeah.
Oh, thank you so much, Laird. We could obviously keep going, but you've done such a great job of clarifying how the best sales conversations are a process of mutual problem solving.
Very much so.
Yeah, it's lovely. So listeners, you can find out more about the work we do at Proteus and how we support leaders and their teams and organizations To succeed, you can just go to proteus-international.com. So thank you, Laird.
Thank you, Erika.
And thank you everyone for listening. And until next time, here's to creating the life you truly want.
Thanks for listening to the Proteus Leader Show. We hope you're leaving with ideas you can put to use on your team, in your organization, or in your own career. To learn more about how we support true transformation through change consulting, leadership development, and executive coaching, visit us at proteus-international.com. Until next time.
