In this episode of The Proteus Leader Show, host Erika Andersen interviews Jeff Mitchell, president of Proteus, about the art and impact of having tough conversations. They begin by reframing the question to focus on the benefits of effective difficult dialogues, noting that avoiding or mishandling them leads to lost productivity, strained relationships, and a "logjam" of unresolved issues. When handled skillfully, tough conversations boost impact, improve relationships, and break that logjam. The discussion then moves to the internal obstacles that prevent people from engaging: a negative mindset, self‑talk that predicts failure, and the tendency to feel justified in being right. Jeff highlights two core components for success – a supportive internal narrative (mindset) and disciplined listening. He explains how triggers (defensiveness, skepticism) arise from the other person’s statements and how a simple behavior – restating the speaker’s point without judgment – can keep the conversation on track. Jeff uses an animal‑conflict analogy to illustrate non‑verbal signals (tone, posture) that convey a desire to connect rather than fight. Practical advice follows: use supportive self‑talk, summarize the other’s view briefly, watch for the "yes/you‑got‑it" cue that signals it’s your turn, stay fact‑based, and keep listening until the other party feels heard. When the counterpart remains in combat mode, Jeff recommends persisting with listening, acknowledging any history of not being heard, and avoiding defensive "zingers" that reignite conflict. The episode concludes that effective tough conversations start with internal preparation, move through active listening, and end with clear, neutral, fact‑based sharing that creates space for common ground, even if the outcome isn’t a happy ending for everyone.
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You're listening to the Proteus Leader Show with Erika Andersen, where you'll get practical tools and insights for leading, managing, and staying ready for the future. Erika is the founding partner of Proteus, a firm that focuses uniquely on leader readiness. A nationally known executive coach and bestselling author, you may already know her as one of the most popular leadership bloggers on Forbes.com. Ready for something you can use today? Here's Erika.
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leader Show. Today's guest is my longtime business partner and dear friend, Jeff Mitchell. Jeff is the president of Proteus and the creative mind that continually catalyzes our evolution as an organization. He works with clients all over the world supporting them to become better leaders and build better organizations. So Jeff, thank you so much for being here again with me on the show.
Yeah, I'm so glad to be here, and I sound like a pretty cool guy, so thanks for that introduction.
Yeah, you are a pretty cool guy, and also you're really skilled at having difficult conversations. I've seen this over the years, and, and I think, think a lot about how to do it, and I've created our model for helping people to do that. And I know that most leaders, most people, have a hard time having controversial or confrontational conversations. And I'd love you to share your wisdom in this area for the benefit of our listeners. So are you up for that?
Sure. Ready to go.
Okay. So let's start in a kind of counterintuitive place. What do you see as the benefits of having tough conversations?
Well, so I— if I can adjust the question slightly, it would be what are the benefits of having tough conversations effectively? Because there are some people who avoid them and some that dive into them but don't get the value out of making that leap. So, right, for the, the people who, who hold back from having them or put them off, and it ends up being an indefinite putting off, what they miss out on is all the productivity and relationship boost that comes from putting the dead fish on the table. You know, You know, it's almost everyone who seeks help from us and then has the conversation circles back to us with some story that begins and ends with, okay, it wasn't as bad as I thought, the relationship rift, and we've changed the dynamics so that we're getting a higher level of impact where we want to have impact. It just, it breaks the logjam.
Yeah, okay. So they, they see that actually having done it, if they do it reasonably skillfully, solves more problems than they hoped that it would even.
Yes, exactly. And the, the, the overfocus on how it might go wrong or how they want to avoid hurting the other person's feeling or having them lash out, that sometimes blocks them from seeing past breaking the logjam when things really Are elevated, like you said.
That's a really good point. I really— yes, I've seen that over and over. I wonder, sometimes it seems to me also that when people don't have a difficult conversation, it just kind of grows in their minds. It becomes like the conflict seems worse and the positions seem farther apart. It just sort of takes on an unrealistically huge You know, magnitude.
I think that's exactly true. And that just makes it even harder to take the leap and have the conversation. So the longer you wait, the harder it will be to take that step.
Yeah. So talk for a minute about the other side. So having overcome that and used some of the help you're going to give momentarily, how— what, what are— what happens that's good when people can do this tough conversation? Well, thing.
So for the, the people who aren't resistant to just diving into a tough conversation but maybe aren't as effective as they should be, the way they benefit if they make the effort to be skillful is they get the change they're looking to have happen. You know, when they're, when they're jumping into, let's have this tough conversation, let's put it on the table, they have an end in mind. And if they don't do things effectively, that rarely happens. In fact, it helps the other person have reasons to dig in even further or have negative perceptions of the tough conversation prompter. So then the change doesn't happen.
Yeah, yeah, okay. Does it— is it your— do you feel like people really can Most people can learn to do this reasonably well?
I do, I do. I think it's a set of skills, part mindset, part how you speak, and part how you listen.
Okay, well, so what I think that belief that I can't do this, there's no way, I just, I don't know how to do this, is one of the things that makes it difficult. What are some of the other things that make it hard about having these kinds of conversations, sharing difficult news, taking a tough stand?
Yeah, I think so. Let's start with mindset. The tape that's playing in your head about the other person, about yourself, about the situation, the level of optimism in your head that this could turn out, that tape is pretty, a pretty good predictor Of how the conversation is going to go. So you got to get your control over that, that you have supportive self-talk, that you're coaching yourself in your head to be open and patient and respectful with the other person, and yet also firm and direct with your own point of view. So the mindset has to be there, and that's hard for people. People sometimes want to feel right about the other person being wrong, and that's a stuck place that's hard to get out of.
Oh, that's great. Yes, feel right about the other person being wrong. Yeah, that's a big stumbling block, I think. What else? What else makes it hard, do you think, for us to have these kinds of conversations?
Well, I think typically what the other person says has a way of— particularly initially when you put it on the table— has a way of triggering a reaction in us that is connected to why it's hard to have the conversation in the first place. You know, you're worried they're going to say something like it's not their fault, it's someone else's. They're not taking accountability. That triggers you like, there you go again. Or they act like they're surprised and you think they know full well what you're talking about. And so that triggers a Skepticism. And so I think the triggering piece, and that's if you have both a behavior you can do, and we suggest people listen, that they actively share their understanding of what the other person is trying to communicate, play it back, we call it restating. So if you can, you have something to do that's supportive of having a good conversation and you maintain self-talk that is not jumping to conclusions, that you stay open with your mindset. Those 2 things help you manage the triggers.
Wow. Yeah, I mean, we talk about this all the time and they're so powerful. I never— I'm not sure I ever thought about it that way as here's an alternative, because when, you know, you use that word trigger and when we get triggered, we get triggered both mentally where we start thinking, oh, that person always does that and they never— and And we start getting triggered emotionally. We feel defensive or angry or resistant. And, and what you're saying, I think, is that if you can hear and manage your self-talk back to, I need to stay engaged, I need to stay neutral, I need to understand where they're coming from, you know, whatever works for you, and then literally listen, an actual behavior that you can do, that it gives you something to do other than just follow those triggers down into a bad place that ruins the whole conversation.
Yeah, that's a great way to summarize it. And I think I like to have in my mind a visual of how animals deal with conflict because we are animals. And there are ways that you can signal, I'm not interested in fighting right now. I'm interested in connecting, clarifying, getting back on track, being productive. You can do that in your tone of voice, in the way you posture yourself. And I think Truly listening sends a strong signal of, I respect you, I'm not here to be in a fight, and, you know, I also— I'm a person too. So it's assertive and receptive at the same time.
Wow, that's great. So as you know, my second question was what's hardest, and my third question was what's your practical advice, and you're already giving practical advice, which is great. So You're talking about what's hard and here's how to work against that. So I'd love for you to keep going down that path of— I think people, I think our listeners will really feel helped by having, OK, what do I do in these situations? Because they're absolutely universal. They come up for all of us. So what else— how else would you help our listeners understand how to behave and then how to react in these kinds of situations?
Well, so I'll anchor the first 2 things. The thing one is to have a tape in your head that's supportive of you having a productive conversation. So as you tune into what you're saying to yourself before you start the conversation and even during the conversation, if it's blameful or threatening or you're feeling defensive, the tapes or those feelings You're going to have to have supportive self-talk you can plug in. So something like, you know, I can make the most progress in this conversation if I, if I can really show I understand their perspective, or I need to understand their perspective before I can get them to understand mine. Something like that. Then there's the listening piece. The way to do that effectively is to summarize your understanding of what the other person has said without judgment. Without your point of view mixed in. And briefly, you know, just keep it short. So you're surprised I'm bringing this up? Yes. And then that's the— when you hear that yes or the right or you got it and nothing more after that, that's an invitation to share your point of view or to ask a follow-up question to continue adding to your understanding. I think that dance of let them speak, As you listen, and then they'll signal with that, yes, you're following me. Yes, you got it. That's the signal it's your turn to share, and they'll be more likely to listen. Seeing those signals is, I think, really important in a tough conversation. Do you find that as well?
Yes, absolutely. And I was thinking that I really have found over the years in a difficult situation when I listen, when I really listen, as you say, I stop, I Fully take it in. I restate, I summarize what they're saying without mixing in my, how could you possibly be surprised? But, you know, oh, so you're surprised I'm bringing this up? You know, just do it really neutrally. The other person is much more likely to come down in their emotional affect and listen as well. So totally agree with that. And what do you recommend when that doesn't work, when the other person is still in combat mode and they, and they're not coming, coming down emotionally and not listening to you?
Well, I think what I've seen work best for myself and in others is just keep listening until they feel heard. And here are some reasons why people might not feel heard. There may be a long history of bringing this up either with you or with others and it hasn't been heard. And so they really just got to burn off a lot of fuel before they can relax. You know, they're They've been carrying this for a while. Also, there are a lot of— most of us are not perfect listeners. So we're going to slip up a little bit and maybe add a zinger or two. Oh, so you're surprised I'm bringing this up even though we talked about it last week? That little zinger is going to prompt a little defensiveness. But you can bounce back if you just listen all the way to the other person saying, Some form of, yep, that's my point, and nothing more after that. Then when you do share your point of view, it's important to be that same neutral and direct and be as fact-based as possible. There's no reason here to try to settle scores with making sure they know how angry you are and make them feel as bad as you feel or as nervous as you feel. It's just— Stick to the facts and make sure they know where you're coming from. And then generally, it starts to become a more constructive conversation. They feel heard. You've been really clear about your perspective. And now you can start working on finding common ground.
That's great. That's great. Okay, so what I'm taking away from this, and this is such a clarification of things that I've I mean, you know, you and I try and do this a lot and have done for years, is that, you know, it starts internally. It starts with you managing your own mindset and then listening. That the first step when you're— when you need to say something difficult or confrontational or tough to someone is to listen. That you will almost always be more likely to have a good conversation, get a good response, if you start out genuinely trying to figure out where they are.
And to build on that, I think when you listen, really listen, you shift a little.
Yeah.
Your perceptions of the other person, they're less of a jerk because you kind of have their perspective. Oh, I didn't know that, or a little roundness. You also feel more confident because you were able to manage your emotions. And you're going to kind of be thinking, OK, I can handle this. Or this could go a good direction. So your optimism rises. And the opportunity for constructive conclusion rises in the same fashion. Now, that doesn't mean, as you know, handling a tough conversation effectively doesn't mean you're on the other side of a happy rainbow.
Right.
The conversation is tough for a reason. There is accountability to be accepted. There is a tough decision to be delivered. There is a change in role, whatever. It doesn't mean everyone's going to be happy. It just means the communication was effective and you're— it's as good a situation as it can be.
Yes, that both of you are more likely to be able to work your way to an acceptable end, an acceptable outcome. Yeah, that's—
yes.
Oh, this is great. Okay, so, um, you know, I always say I'll keep these short, so I'll keep this short. And thank you so much, Jeff. I love having these kinds of conversations with you.
And let's go have some tough conversations. Let's go.
And if listeners, if you'd like to find out more about this key skill, you can just go to ProteusLeader.com and choose the Tough Conversations topic. Thank you for being with us today, as always. And until next time, here's to creating the life you truly want.
We hope you're feeling better equipped to create the career, the business, and the life you want. For more insights and tools for leadership and management, join us at theprodigiousleader.com. Have an excellent day, and thanks for listening.
