#71: Leadership Vertigo

You're listening to the Proteus Leader Show with Erika Andersen, where you'll get practical tools and insights for leading, managing, and staying ready for the future. Erika is the founding partner of Proteus, a firm that focuses uniquely on leader readiness. A nationally known executive coach and bestselling author, you may already know her as one of the most popular leadership bloggers on Forbes.com. Ready for something you can use today? Here's Erika.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leader Show. My guest today is Tanvir Nasir. He and I have been friends and collaborators for many years, even though we've never met in person. Tanvir is an internationally acclaimed keynote speaker and award-winning leadership writer. He's also the founder and CEO of Tanvir Nasir Leadership, a corporate training and consulting firm that works with executives to help them develop practical leadership and team-building competencies to drive organizational growth and development. In addition, he's co-author of the book Leadership Vertigo. Tanvir's work and writing have been featured in Forbes, Fast Company, Inc. Magazine, The Globe and Mail, and the Ritz-Carlton Leadership Center. So welcome to the show, Tanvir.

Well, it's great to be here, Erika. It's fun to change the, the positions here where I had you on my podcast, and now, now I get to— I don't know if I'm on the hot seat or on the hot seat. I could never quite be certain about that.

We're both on the warm seats.

I'll take it. I'll take it.

So, you know, we've, we've talked a lot over the years in various contexts about how great leadership is both incredibly important and really challenging. And so I'm excited for you to share your understanding. You've asked me to share my understanding on your podcast. So I'm thrilled to get the chance to ask you about what you think is required to be a good leader. And I really think our listeners are going to find it valuable. So let's, let's jump in. Let's get started.

Oh, I can't wait. I know we always have great conversations around leadership. So this will be a lot of fun.

Yes, exactly. So as I said, the title of your book is Leadership Vertigo, which you define as, quote, the brain sending us false signals that everything is okay when it is not. I love that sentence. So can you explain a little bit to us about how that happens? And then how it gets in the way of us being good leaders.

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, one of the things I like to share sometimes when I do keynotes on this is I like to ask the audience, I want you to think about, you know, a typical drive you take to go to the grocery store. Okay, just think of the route. Now, most of you probably don't have to imagine, okay, I take a right here, a left here. You just do it. Most likely than not, you're probably thinking of what you got to pick up at the grocery store and maybe some other tasks you need to do. And so they said, okay, so think about the route you take. Now, while thinking about it, I have a simple question for you. How many stop signs do you have to make to get to the grocery store? It takes people a few moments to figure that out, but eventually some do. But the point being is that we don't think about that. Why? Because our brain has told us, don't worry, we've done this so many times, you don't need to think about that, and you go on autopilot.

Right.

And so when we're talking about leadership Virgo, what's happening is our brain is doing something similar where it's sending us these signals saying, don't worry about this, I know we've seen this in the past. It just means this. So just keep going. Don't pay attention to this. But unlike the stop signs where it's a clear signal telling us you need to stop, these are false signals that are misleading us into thinking that there isn't something we need to do differently here, that there isn't a problem we need to address, and ergo, we keep just doing what we're doing. And so, if you've ever wondered why for the past decade we're seeing these low levels of employee engagement, and if you're wondering why we're seeing this ongoing debate over return to office versus some sort of flexible work arrangement, and now the 4-day workweek and whether that's feasible or not, a lot of that is coming from these false signals coming from the brains of these leaders where they're convinced, look, this is the way we used to do things. It made sense. It works. And trust me, I know what I'm talking about. But that's coming from their brains telling them like, look, just stick with this and everything will be fine. And that's why we're not seeing the movement, the changes we really need to see in today's workplaces. can see more thriving employees and more thriving organizations.

Man, I love that. I've seen it so much. I could, you know, just examples are like popping in my brain. So, so let's talk about, you know, what to do about it. In the book, you outline 4 leadership principles that we can use to overcome this phenomenon of leadership vertical vertigo and unuseful shortcutting. So explain those to us.

Yeah, sure. So the way I want everyone to think about these is they're kind of like these guideposts. They're things you want to use to kind of gauge how are you really showing up and delivering as a leader. Okay, you're not just using the metrics of market share, profitability, productivity. You're really assessing your own leadership in terms of these 4 principles. And what's important about them is to understand that they're interconnected. And as we discuss them, you'll see that there is this interconnect, and you can't really do one without the other. But also, like I like to tell people, is you'll notice that it has also this journey effect where at the beginning we're focusing outward on our employees, on the workplace environment we are encouraging, supporting, nurturing. But then the focus goes inward onto ourselves. What are we doing as a leader? And what is it that we are communicating as a leader? And how is that impacting and influencing the behaviors and actions of our employees? So the first leadership principle, and there's 4 of them, is build community. And this one you could see is the one that I think a lot of leaders are trying to latch on to where they say, look, we have to have people come back. This is how we encourage teamwork and collaboration and so forth. And they're absolutely correct. Those are important. But the question I often have, and I don't see them answering it, is if people are resisting, it's because maybe they didn't feel they had that construct effectively in their organization to the point that, well, we can only do that in person. I can't do that virtually.

Yes.

So, what are you doing then if you want to bring people back to ensure there's a greater sense of community, a greater sense of connection and belonging? Because we all want that. We all want that. And if you were to create that, people would be compelled to come into the workplace because they— everyone wants that sense of belonging and purpose and connection to others, which is why we were all so eager to get out from Under these restrictions because we longed for human connection. So that's the first one.

Okay, so let me— I want to make sure I'm clear. So you're saying that this first principle is actually focus, get curious about and focus on what actually does build community in your environment versus just that shortcutting, that assumption that, oh well, if we all come back to work, that— but just really get curious and intentional about it.

Absolutely, 100% correct. You got it exactly right, Erika. I mean, again, we don't want to think of community as, well, we have a lot of team meetings.

Right?

That's not community. If you think a team meeting sitting in a room and looking at PowerPoint slides and listening to one person, you know, prattle off a report, okay, here, so here on page 6, that's community, you don't understand what community is.

Right?

So this is one of the things we have to look at. What are we doing to make people feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves, that they feel a sense of connection to the work they do and to the people around them. Like, look, I want to be there so I can help so-and-so because every now and then they need help with this. And I know them knowing I'm there to help them will help them accomplish that.

Yeah.

Well, if they know you can pop in on a Zoom call quick and you can have that interaction, then why do I need to be in person to do it? So this is, again, if you're worried, if you really want people to come back in the workplace, rationalize how are we going to build that sense of community where people want to come into the office and we're going to fuel it beyond just, oh, well, they'll be in the same row of cubicles next to one another.

Right, right. Okay, that's great. What's the, what's the second one?

Okay, so the second one is develop competence. And here we're not talking about technical competence. We're talking about emotional competence. And by that, I mean, how are you showing up as a leader when you walk into these meetings? Even if it's a virtual meeting, what is your emotional state? Because this affects and colors not only what you're communicating, but what others are receiving from you, right? If you're suddenly curt in your communication, if there's even— I've noticed people have told me that even virtually they can sense at times somebody's energy level is not as, you know, usually they're more peppy, they're more— you can hear the smile in their voices. And other times it's like you can hear they're very muted, very low energy and so forth, right? Well, you as a leader, you set the stage for everyone else. If you come into a meeting energized and you're excited— and I'm not talking about fake energy, I'm talking about genuine enthusiasm, right? People are gonna say, wow, they're really enthusiastic about this. What— why are they enthusiastic? It draws and compels their curiosity. So this is really about understanding your own emotional state and how that influences others. So notice we've shifted, right? The first one, build community, was about the environment. Now I'm focusing on internally on yourself and saying, now it's about you as a leader. How are What is your emotional state? What is your emotions communicating to others, right? Because some people will say, hey everyone, I have good news. It doesn't sound like you have good news, right? It's like, hey guys, I have good news.

Yeah, right.

So I mean, again, it's not about putting on a happy face. It's about understanding if your emotional state is negative for a reason, address it. Hey everyone, just let you know I just had a really tough call with a client. It's not related to this meeting. But if I look a little distant, it's probably because my brain is forcing me to think back about something they said. Don't worry about it. That's my problem, not yours. I just want you to know. So, if ever I seem to wander off, if I'm curt, it's not about what we're talking about here. I just had a really tough call. And it's affecting what I'm saying. And that transparency, remember, we hear a lot, oh, leaders need to be more transparent, need to be more open. That's all we're talking about. It's something as simple as that. And that's what develop competence is.

That's great. Okay. Number 3.

Number 3. Okay. So we're going to stay still internally on ourselves. And this one I call earn credibility. And this one, what we're looking at is something that some studies have shown that employees who work at poor performing companies were 79% more likely to demonstrate low levels of self-awareness than those that work in high-performing companies that have a strong return on investment. And so when we talk about earned credibility, it's about having a greater sense of self-awareness about you as a leader. So we talked just now about having an understanding about your emotional state. Well, this is how we're doing it. We're going to increase our sense of self-awareness about how we're showing up, that we're making time To reflect. Okay, how did I do this week? What were the good conversations? What conversations didn't go as I thought? Like, maybe I was hoping that they would be positive. Okay, I'll look into that. But instead, the reaction I got was rather cool. Why was that? Was it something I said? Or is there something going on with them that I didn't notice, that I didn't— I need to check in and make sure? And this is where, again, we need to make time for ourselves as leaders. to reflect on what it is we're communicating. Again, look at the ongoing debate about return to office and the flexible work arrangements.

And you—

I could generally tell you there's— the reason a lot of leaders are taking credibility hits is because there's a lack of self-awareness. Like, why so much pushback?

Yeah.

My favorite was that investment firm in New York. I can't remember which one it was last year where they made an announcement. The CEO proclaimed, okay, end of April, I want everybody in the office. And less than 50% showed up. Almost 50% of his workforce willingly defied the CEO of this major company. That's a red flag. And instead of saying, whoops, there's something I need to do differently, they just doubled down and said, no, no, I'm not accepting this and such and so forth. And it's like, no, you need to—

It's a mess.

You need to think, what is it that I'm doing here that I don't have credibility where people are saying, oh, you know, the CEO said this, I respect and value, he must know something we don't know, so I'm going to trust him and I'm going to come in And we're going to learn more about why we need to come in. Yeah, that was a credibility hit. And, and no— and it was interesting too, Erika, how everyone was talking more about the fact that 50% of employees didn't show up than the fact that this guy suffered a major hit to his credibility and the trust levels he has in his organization.

Wow, that's a great, great example. All right, so then drum roll, what's the 4th one?

Okay, 4th one, we're gonna again move out from looking inward on ourselves and move back outward towards our employees. And the 4th leadership principle is called Cultivate Compassion. And yes, as it infers, this is talking about a lot of the elements we talk about emotional intelligence in leadership. And with this one, what we're looking at is tying into the 2 innate behaviors we all have, that of curiosity and also feeling a sense of empathy. A lot of people will say, oh no, you know, you have to learn to be empathetic and so forth. No, you don't. You just look at how in the news a natural disaster will happen, and then suddenly there'll be a rush of people wanting to give donations. There'll be a rush to people to donate blood, even though the blood is for their local community. People have this desire to feel like, I'm going to do something, I'm going to help.

Yeah.

And so this is what we want to do here, where again, if we look at some of the challenges that we see leaders facing today, it's an issue of them not cultivating their compassion to say, I need to better understand what it is my employees need from me to succeed and thrive. Because when they succeed and thrive, our organization does. So what do I need to do differently? And using my curiosity and empathy to better understand that.

That's great. These are such good, simple, powerful ways to Take yourself off automatic and become more intentional, more conscious. So we always promise practical takeaways. So my last question for you is, these are such— 4 such good principles. What can leaders start doing right now today to combat their leadership vertigo and make sure that they're on track? What's one simple thing they can do today?

Well, I would say, based on what I just saw on LinkedIn today, one place I would really encourage people to start off with is to increase their self-awareness about how they're showing up as a leader. And the one thing I tell people to do, how you do this is schedule time in your work week where you just spend time reflecting on how you're showing up. Like, as I just mentioned, looking back at those conversations, the ones that went well, why did it go well? The ones that didn't go so well, that didn't end the way you thought it'd end, why not? And think about what it is you're communicating. If there's something you're trying to address, like the, again, looking at all these debates where people leaders are trying to encourage and get employees on board. If you're hitting resistance, ask yourself why. Is it the idea or is it the way I'm communicating the idea? And I don't see a lot of that self-reflection happening. Now, I did an episode recently to talk about how at the end of the year, we should do a reflection to evaluate what went well last year and what we can do differently to bring into this new year. So, there are some tools there to help you figure it out. But one thing I strongly suggest people do is Literally schedule time in your agenda because if you don't schedule it, it's not going to get done. And treat it like you would a meeting with an important client.

Yeah.

If something comes up, you can't say, okay, I'll push it back to tomorrow. Say, okay, look, I'll take care of it. I'll— but I need an hour right now. So let me come back to you in an hour's time and we'll discuss it. Because if you do not show up to take care of yourself as a leader, what you're doing, it becomes very difficult for you to do right by your employees. And so it's really important that you schedule this. honor that time. Because again, if you show your employees that you're doing these efforts, as I pointed out in studies, demonstrating that sense of self-awareness will spill over into your employees, and that will help drive greater performance and strong returns on your investment.

Wow, this is so great. It's so practical, so solid. And I just, I love the whole premise of taking yourself off automatic, getting out of those shortcuts and becoming more intentional. So thank you, Tim. I'm so glad we had this chance to talk.

Oh, my pleasure. It's always a pleasure talking to you, Erika, about leadership and stuff like that. So I appreciate the opportunity to once again connect with you and talk about our favorite subject.

Yes, me too. You and listeners, if you'd like to find out more about how Proteus supports leaders to become truly followable, you can just go to proteusleader.com, click on topics, and choose Accepted Leader. So thank you all for listening. And until next time, here's to creating the life you truly want.

We hope you're feeling better equipped to create the career, the business, and the life you want. For more insights and tools for leadership and management, join us at theprudentialeader.com. Have an excellent day, and thanks for listening.