#72: Creating an Inclusive Environment

You're listening to the Proteus Leader Show with Erika Andersen, where you'll get practical tools and insights for leading, managing, and staying ready for the future. Erika is the founding partner of Proteus, a firm that focuses uniquely on leader readiness. A nationally known executive coach and bestselling author, you may already know her as one of the most popular leadership bloggers on Forbes.com. Ready for something you can use today? Here's Erika.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leader Show. My guest today is Jacque Kindle, founder and CEO of Kindle Evolve, an organization that cultivates extraordinary leaders and inclusive work cultures through leadership coaching, DEI consulting, and training. Jacque brings her broad experience in leadership, organizational development, human resources, and in diversity, equity, and inclusion to her collaboration with organizations throughout the U.S., helping them to create inclusive, vibrant workplaces. So welcome to the show, Jacque.

Thank you, Erika. I'm excited to talk with you today.

I'm really excited. You know, Jacque and I have known each other, listeners, for a long time, and, and I love Jacque's practicality. You know, a lot of people these days are trying to make their organizations more inclusive, and a lot of consultants offer their kind of theoretical insights about why that's important, but I'm really looking forward to hearing from you about how we can actually do it, how we can make our workplaces more inclusive.

I'm happy to share my thoughts on that. It's definitely a big topic of concern for a lot of organizations.

Yes. Yeah, I think maybe not as many as I hope, but I think a lot of businesses these days are trying to figure out how to become more inclusive. So, so just share with us, what have you found are the most impactful steps that organizations Sure.

I think one of the big ones is understanding where you're starting from. I think a lot of organizations will just start implementing different things. And, you know, maybe the things that they're implementing will be effective, and maybe not. And so I always say, where are we starting from?

Yeah.

How do you know, you know, the current state without collecting that data and getting really clear from your employees on You know, what's their experience?

Yes. Oh, that makes so much sense. Yeah, because it— I always talk about, you know, when you're trying to learn something, you have to have good neutral self-awareness. You have to be accurate about where you're starting from. So, so I love that. So what are some of the— what are some of the ways that you've found are valuable for organizations to get that information?

Yes, that's, that's a great question. So one of the main things that we usually start with, and I've seen, you know, other, other consultants, is some sort of survey, whether it's an engagement survey that also includes questions around, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. I also am a big fan of focus groups, because the survey data is only going to give you so much insight, you know, the what, but it's hard to really glean, you know, the why and what the drivers are. So I love doing focus groups as well. And I think it's important when you do those to make sure that the confidentiality is confirmed and reconfirmed, which is why it's often helpful to have someone from outside of the organization.

Yes. Yeah.

Another piece of data that is often overlooked when we're looking at inclusion is, is HR data. So, you know, how inclusive are we? Of course, you can look at, you know, demographics based on different identity markers. But also, I look to look at exit interview data. I look to— like to look at turnover. Who's leaving the organization? Who are we hiring into the organization? We can look at who's here, who's not, who's leaving, who's getting promoted. And that can say a lot about you know, not only the diversity, but how inclusive is the experience for people?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I remember talking to one other friend of mine who is working in this space about 5, maybe 5 or 6 years ago. And, and she was saying that, to your point, that, you know, you can look at demographics at different levels, like if there are a lot of entry-level people of color and people with different identity markers, but then it gets less and less as you go up, it's like, hmm, there's something that's not Working right here, right?

Absolutely. I see that a lot. You have, you know, a lot of diversity in different aspects at the lower levels of the organization, and the higher up you go, the more homogeneous it is.

Yes. Yeah. So let's, let's go over to the dark side. You know, what, in your experience, what, what are some of the biggest organizational blockers To inclusivity?

I would start with, and you mentioned this at the very beginning, self-awareness. So I think for many people, there is a lack of self-awareness when it comes to how inclusive we really are, right? There's a lack of self-awareness about our unconscious bias. We all have unconscious bias, and I think for many that's been, you know, perceived as a taboo to admit.

Yeah.

And even more so harder to do the work of identifying what that is. And so if we're operating from a place of, I'm great, it's everybody else's problem, that can definitely be and is often a barrier to inclusion. I think a lot of times too, it's really a lack of, you know, having Policies and procedures that are inclusive. So, you know, we always suggest that you evaluate your policies and procedures through a lens, a DEIB lens, to see, you know, even your job descriptions. So when someone reads this, is it skewing more masculine than feminine, for example?

Right.

You know, are we using words in the job description? And there are actually different free decoders online. You can look up job description decoders and put your job description in there, and it'll tell you. Um, I haven't seen— the one I see most frequently is gender decoder, so it'll tell you masculine, feminine, and whatnot. So I think that's a big barrier, is just a lack of self-awareness. I think that, uh, the other thing that I've seen is fear. So, not really sure what to say. So I'm just going to remain silent. And what that does is, you know, that silence can become deafening, and people feel like, well, they haven't asked, so I'm, I'm not going to share. And I don't really feel like I have a voice here as a result of that. I don't feel like people really care about me and my experience because they're not That we're not having those honest, candid conversations.

Yes. And is that— so I think fear is the source of so many things. And is that— what do you see? What do organizations do that exacerbate that, that make people more fearful? What are some of the negative things that you see?

The way that concerns are handled when they are raised.

Yeah, yeah.

Whether it's, oh, you know, you all are being too sensitive, or maybe there's just silence and there, there is no response.

Yeah, yeah.

I've seen organizations, we know we have a leader that is, that's, you know, lots of complaints about this particular leader. Maybe the leader is catering to people who are similar to them. And, you know, you can, you can look at their teams and tell, yeah, maybe there's complaints. And maybe that person happens to also be, you know, a strong contributor, that particular leader. And so their behavior becomes sort of excused.

Right.

And, you know, that can wreak havoc, wreak havoc on the morale and the feeling of Psychological safety in an organization.

Yeah. Yes, that makes complete sense to me. And I hate to use this word because it's kind of strong, but then a kind of— when that— in that situation, a kind of gaslighting can happen where it's like, oh no, no, no, you're misunderstanding. And they're so well-intentioned. And no, I don't think they meant it that way. And then you start to doubt your own experience.

Absolutely. I think a lot of it too, in terms of barriers, is just a lack of of education and awareness. Yeah, right. And so while training and learning and development type workshops isn't the only thing, I think it's a big thing. It's a big barrier when it's— when it doesn't exist.

Yeah.

So how do we build our internal capacity to, you know, in our own individual ways, be Champions of inclusion. What does that even mean? Having that internal expertise to lead those efforts is connected to that being a barrier, because a lot of organizations don't.

And then people don't— managers might be well-intended, and they might see that it's not optimal what's happening, but they literally don't know what to do about it. They don't have the skills, they don't have any training, they don't have any understanding. They're just like, I just won't pay attention to it.

Right? I don't want to say the wrong thing. So I'm just gonna move on to the next topic. Very uncomfortable. And people aren't willing to— when it's a barrier, people aren't willing to lean into that discomfort. People want to be comfortable. And, you know, this, like any other growth, it requires a bit of discomfort.

Yes, absolutely. Yes. If some— a friend of mine used to say, if you're not at least slightly uncomfortable, you're probably not learning anything.

Absolutely. I believe that wholeheartedly. Yeah, I believe that.

Well, so you're starting to kind of go in this direction. But let's, you know, let's get practical. So what, what, what would you encourage our listeners to start doing now today to make their teams and their organizations more inclusive? Sure.

I think it starts with self. So educating yourself, maybe your organization doesn't have any formal opportunities for you to learn. There are many resources out there for you to educate yourself about, about all the isms, you know, racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, I mean, xenophobia. There's, there's so much rich information out there. So I think it starts with that. I also really recommend people leaning into the fact that, hey, I know I have unconscious bias. What is it? What are my biases?

Yeah.

And so taking the Harvard Implicit Association Test. There's different ones.

Yeah.

Erika, the first time I took some of those tests, I was alarmed because we just, we don't, many of us, you know, especially people who do this work, we think, oh, well, we, we're educated, we've managed our biases. And you just never, you don't know what's lurking beneath, you know, deep down in the recesses of your brain. And, you know, I discovered some biases I didn't know I had. So figuring out what they are and inviting people on your team to do the same thing and figuring out like, okay, now that we know, what are the practices that we're going to put in place to mitigate bias through the whole employee lifecycle?

Yeah.

So for example, how are we going to change our hiring process so that, you know, you're never going to get rid of bias altogether. But for unconscious bias, you know, it's that automatic thinking. So how can we slow down our decisions, whether it's on, you know, speaking of hiring. So if we look at that, how can we slow down our hiring decisions? And how can we mitigate bias within that? So having interview panels, making sure that you have— a diverse, you know, a diverse group that's actually vetting the candidates.

Yes.

Asking all the candidates the same questions.

Yeah.

Objectively scoring their responses. Yeah. Who am I? Who am I more likely to promote?

Right.

We have to really examine who is in our inner circle, and then expose ourselves to people who are different than us.

Yes.

Over time.

Yeah. Boy, I really— everything you're saying makes so much sense to me. It's just doable and practical. And so one question that comes up for me is like, I took that Harvard Implicit Bias Test many years ago, or a number of years ago, and thought, wow, this is great because it really— you can't game it.

Right. Right.

So how would you suggest managers make that less scary for people? Because I think what you said earlier about people are afraid that they do have implicit biases and they don't necessarily want to find that out. So how can you make it less scary for people to find out where their soft— their weak spots might be? Sure.

I think just to normalize that we all have it and to make it, you know, you're not a bad person because Guess what? This is how we're made. Yes, our brains have bias. And, you know, oftentimes the bias helps us. And oftentimes it doesn't. And so knowing what our, what our unconscious biases are, is just a way to grow as a human.

Yes. The more we can talk about it. Yeah, that's a great way to talk about it. And I love the word you use, normalize. And I think, you know, what you yourself said, wow, I took it and I was alarmed. I mean, if bosses are honest about having taken it themselves and what they've found out and what they're working on. I think that really lowers the anxiety level for the folks on their team, right?

Absolutely. I think the more you get people engaged in, you know, that type of storytelling and sharing their experiences, the more people see, okay, there's nothing wrong with me and there's no shame in this.

Yes.

The only shame is when we continue to make our automatic decisions that may be harmful to others because we're not Learn more about ourselves.

Yeah. Yes. So if you— I'm, I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot here, but if what if you had one message for people, for managers and leaders especially, who are trying to be more inclusive, what would you— what would it be? What's the most important thing you want to say to leaders about being more inclusive?

Ooh, that is hard to pick just one, but I think a big one is improving our listening skills. And the reason I pull that out is it's a lot easier for us to be empathetic and even compassionate with, you know, all people on our team if we're listening and we understand their needs, which is a big part of inclusion. Yeah. So listening to understand, not to respond.

Yeah.

Wow. It would be hard for me to agree with you more about that. I mean, we have one of our— you may not even know this, but one of our kind of axioms in is, is that listening is the foundation of success.

It absolutely is.

In any relationship, in any endeavor, if you really start by stopping, stopping the inside of your head and just letting come in what the other person thinks, feels, wants to say— that's— I love that. I love that you said that. Yeah. Wow. Thank you, Jackie. This is great. It's, as I said, so practical, doable, you know.

Thank you. I'm So passionate about it because I've seen the difference it makes when you have an organization that's inclusive versus when you don't. And yeah, it doesn't happen overnight, but it's so possible.

Yes, yes, completely agree. And, and picking up on what you just said, listeners, if you want to find out more about how Proteus supports leaders to be good listeners, you can go to proteusleader.com and click on topics and choose listening. And you'll, you'll find out more about the skill of listening. So thanks again, Jackie. Thank you all for listening. And until next time, here's to creating the life you truly want.

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