#95 Five Generations at Work: how do we win together?

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Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leaders Show. I'm your host, Marie Holleve. On today's episode, we're diving into a topic that is shaping the future of work as we know it: generational diversity. I'm thrilled to be joined by 2 phenomenal guests, Patrick Dunn and Rebecca Robbins, authors of the insightful new book, 5 Generations at Work: How We Win Together for Good. Patrick is a seasoned chair, serial entrepreneur, and author with decades of experience advising boards and transforming organizational strategies. Rebecca is an organizational changemaker and brand expert with a unique focus on leadership and culture. Together, they offer a deeply human perspective on how to navigate and thrive in today's multigenerational workplaces. Welcome to the show, Patrick and Rebecca.

Great to be here. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Marie. Looking forward to today.

Wonderful. So let's dive in. First, I'd like to ask you, What inspired you to write this book, and why do you believe this topic is especially relevant today?

Well, first of all, Marie, thank you for interrogating the why, which is something that we both love to do in many contexts. And I think it's so important to the journey behind this book because, of course, the multigenerational workforce and the workplace has come very much into the spotlight across so many organizations across the world. And there's a very good reason for that, because, of course, for the first time in history, we have 5 generations at work. Also means that we have 5 generations increasingly in our clients and consumers. And of course, the context point is simply a fact of reality, is that because we are living for longer, we are going to want and need to work for longer. In counterpoint, and this really starts to sort of set the scene around how Patrick and I started to come together with the different types of work that we were doing and what we were seeing with our clients and other areas of education and social enterprise, because There's a prevailing narrative, Marie, and we've talked about this a lot, that is rife with misperceptions, stereotypes, and really that is quite unhelpful when we think about the opportunity that we have in that generational diversity. So one of the big whys behind the book was really to unpack work that we were both already seeing, experiencing, and doing that was far more productive, progressive, and solutions-focused around how can we turn this unique moment in history, which will only continue to extend, where we have this great generational diversity and turn it into a collaborative, competitive advantage, and one that obviously will then sustain relevance for all of our organizations. And I think the final point is we also know that the wider context of our times has to play a part, and it should play a part when we think about responsibility and leadership. And that means looking at how we are all affected in business and society. We have a raging polycrisis from climate to geopolitics. We're also living through an inflection point in history, which brings with it all the hopes and fears. But I'd like to think if it was some— somebody were looking looking back in 200, 300 years' time, listening to this podcast, Marie. And hopefully, again, we are all thinking as a result of this book and many more besides to say, what will we have contributed as individuals and organizations in whatever period this might be talked about in the future of history? I think Patrick and I both like to think actually it might be some form of modern Renaissance. And we know again, that melting pot of art and science and human and tech. And so that very much is The big vision behind the book and, and the big why.

Beautiful. I think what really resonated with me is that kind of reframing and that avoids to fall into the trap of those misconceptions. It's like, what should we be telling ourselves to be more productive and work better together? So absolutely sharing that. Now on that topic, I'm curious about what are those most common misunderstandings or conflicts between generations in the workplace and how can we bridge those gaps as leaders?

Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing is when you've got challenges, you've kind of got to have some sort of motivation for resolving them and dealing with them. And then the big thing for us is, you know, maximizing the opportunity that those 5 generations bring rather than over-focusing on micro kind of irritations. And so the main challenges when you look at it are fundamentally about understanding each other. Which is common to other forms of diversity. Age diversity is another aspect of diversity. So understanding each other, you know, why do they think that? Why do they feel that? Why do they behave that way? If you understand that, then that's a great help. The second thing I think is around communications, you know, how we communicate with each other. When you hear lots of these little micro irritations are just around that. I don't like using this channel of communication. I prefer this one, that kind of thing. So you have that. The words that we use will differ because of the context in which we became an adult, which often is what defines a generation. So when you look at how you resolve these or deal with these challenges, I mean, the world experts on conflict management, Thomas and Kilmann, came up with this test, which was basically to test your instinctive approaches to a conflict situation, because a lot of these challenges arise from particular moments, particular phrases, particular attitudes that people adopt. So if you look at that, they said basically there's 5 fundamental things that you can do if you're in a conflict situation with someone. You can compete, you can collaborate, you can compromise, you can avoid, or you can accommodate. Now, in order to do that, you need actually to think. You can't just React. You need to think. And so one of the things that we're very keen on is getting people to think around, you know, well, this is such a great opportunity having these older or younger or different age people. Let's understand them. Let's think about what was it like when they grew up? Because although there are big differences perhaps between the cultural context, the technological context, all of those sort of things, there might be some big similarities. And actually, if we understand both the similarities and differences, we're much more likely to get the best out of them. We're much more likely to have positive conversations with them rather than these, these rather often silly misconceptions, which are not really based in fact. There's a grain of truth often in many of these irritations, but we should see them as just irritations to resolve, not magnify and amplify them. I think we need to focus on the good. Rather than the sort of irritating.

We need to put ourselves in their shoes. That's what I'm taking away. And also, obviously, the power of listening that could help avoid those irritations in a way, if we're just curious, stay curious.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. My, my gran told me when I was a little boy, so there's quite a big age difference between the two of us when we're having this conversation. But she said, you know, it's really important to listen to what people say, but Even more important to listen to what they think. And I think if we can get ourselves in a frame, a mindset where we listen more to what people think as well as what they say, I think that'll help.

Love that. Love that. In coaching, we always say listen to understand, but, or listen to understand what people think versus listen to speak. A lot of people, they're just listening and thinking about what they're going to say next.

So.

So thinking about that, we can win together. And I'd love to hear some success stories, examples of organizations that have used those reframing, listening skills, and empathy skills to achieve meaningful outcomes.

And I think, Marie, a lot of what we're about to talk about and unpack really starts with what you just said, which is hardwiring on curiosity, hardwiring on— I love that phrase. I've long believed in that and passed that on to so many others, the ability to walk in somebody else's shoes and to put ourselves in that. I think that's also that tangibility of that act. I think we shouldn't underestimate that metaphor. I think it's so powerful. It's certainly true of so many people that we talk with in the book, but also the case studies and what is coming to life. I think one I'd love to share, which is there's a big theme around collaborative leadership and collective intelligence. It's something that I've done a lot of work in over the years. And I think what's interesting is in the context of our times, this is really coming into the fore all the more. Collaborative leadership, because it's a mindset of leadership that looks differently, more inclusively, and really again is tapping into this generational diversity in a very positive and productive way. And one of those stories I'll share briefly, I love it, Marie, because it's inspired by one individual. And it's one individual who had a problem that she was solving for herself at the time. But instead of just solving that problem for herself, she went on to solve it potentially for the whole organization, and for future people joining that organization to come. So the organization is LVMH. LVMH, as we know, is the leading luxury group across the world. It owns 75 individual brands, individual verticals, which is also an important point in terms of the context and the structure of this organization. And this individual was, she was 3 or 4 years into her career there at LVMH, not into her career per se, but she was looking to change and make a move. She loved it. And she realized, one of the things we don't have, we have great knowledge within our brands. We don't necessarily have enough horizontals across the organization. And I'm a big believer in, again, we have, you know, the verticals of the past, let's say, are starting to morph and change. What we need in organizations and more horizontals and zigzags and diagonals. And she saw the opportunity to set up really one of those catalysts and connectors across the organization. And so, what emerged actually was a platform for open collaboration and open innovation, Marie, that's gone on to become one of the most successful things the organization has done over the past years. As a result, people who would not otherwise meet in the organization, not only connect with each other, know about each other, but throughout the year, they're collaborating on purposeful projects related to solving for real problems. They're all hardwired to the SDGs because of course the fashion industry is contributing to that. So LVMH has said we want to be part of the solution. And I love that because again, not only is it solutions-focused, but it's an open platform that remains open throughout the year. And the final point is it wasn't set up as a generational problem, Marie. What's so fascinating about it is it's brought 5 generations across over 200,000 employees across the world and across these 75 business units together in a way that I think— And another point really is building that natural collaborative muscle. So that's a story that I love to tell because of course it's in an organization that is huge and highly articulated, but it didn't really require a lot of resources to get that idea going. One individual can indeed change things on a large scale and can indeed potentially change the world. So that really taps into the bigger vision of how we win together for good.

Inspiring story. And she was listened to, which is—

She was listened to.

Very impressive in such a big organization and that has experienced people.

Absolutely. And do you know, Marie, I love that you say that because that's a big part of that case study and every kudos to her people and leadership and learning team who were her sparring partners on that journey.

I think it takes humility. I mean, I see it as a parent. If actually we listen to our kids, we learn a lot from them and we accelerate our learning. Now I'm curious. to how it helps also in the boardroom. And Patrick, I'm looking at you for that question. What about multi-generations in the boardroom?

Yeah, well, you know, as, as has been well known, both I and Rebecca have been fans of next-generation boards and multi-generational boards for a long time. And I started experimenting with them 20 years ago and I've had tremendous value from those because they bring fresh insight, they bring fresh challenge, and actually they can change the behavior. of a board too. They can make a board more kind of listening, as we've picked up on. They can make a board more kind of thoughtful, because you're thinking, what do they mean by that? And then you get value. So I think there is a big rise in the use of next-gen boards. I think Rebecca and I identified over 200 as we were doing our research for this. And interestingly, since we launched the book, we've had a lot of inbound inquiries saying, you know, well, how do you do this? How do you set them up in practice? How long should their terms be?

Yeah.

How should you select the people? How do they interact with the board and how do they interact with the executive? Should you put the chair of the NextGen board on the main board? All these sort of fascinating and really good grounded practical questions. We hope that one of the things, it's just one aspect of this, but one of the things that we will see as a result of the book is a stimulation for people at least to think about it. We had an event at the Financial Times the other evening and it was amazing. And this was for a group of non-executive directors. And that was the number, you know, the number one thing they picked up on was, I need to go ask my board the question, the next board meeting, what are we doing about that? Should we have one? So I think that's one thing, but there are many other sort of practical tips and tools that I think you can use. If you were looking for 3 things that the leaders need to do, they need to be intentional. And you need to say, actually, I need to think about this as an opportunity, not a problem. And the second thing is you need to be inspiring. You need to give people, as in the LVMH case, you need to listen to them. And that's one way that people can be inspiring. We often think people inspiring because they say fantastic things, but actually often they're inspiring because they just listen to you and they pick up your ideas and take them seriously. So you need to be intentional, you need to be inspiring. And then I think you need to sort your plumbing out. One of the reasons the LVMH thing has worked so well is they put attention into the detail of how to make this work.

Mm-hmm.

In a big organization in a systematic way that was fairly friction-free. And I think if you can make it easy for people to collaborate rather than difficult, then the collaboration will flow.

Yeah. So that implementation phase was critical.

Yeah.

To make it happen. Now, for you, I mean, you've been thinking about next-gen boards for 20 years, as you said, but I think for a lot of board members, this is quite a new concept. So just at a very simple level, if boards are interested in doing that, where should they start? How should they think about it?

Well, Marie, first of all, I thank you for championing on this podcast today the next generation board. I think what is interesting, and again, we're only 2 months out from the launch of the book, but I think what is fascinating is how little awareness there still is, Marie. As you say, next generation boards, youth advisory boards, or youth councils, as they have often been known in and still are in nonprofit, have been around for quite some time. The pivot is they haven't been as prevalent in corporate. That's actually where I first started getting really, really interested. And it was 10 years ago when Gucci became a little bit the sort of poster child, if you will, in the luxury industry, having set up their shadow committee. And one of the reasons I mentioned that is they were very vocal about it. So I think sometimes, to your point, next generation boards, when people discover them, are thought as something brand new. They are certainly newer to the corporate world, but they have been around for some time. As ever, the context and the purpose of going back to that point, being intentional, interrogating the why, why we set up a next generation board in the first place is absolutely crucial. It takes many shapes and forms. What is good is actually there is a common blueprint and that blueprint is invariably shared across both nonprofits and corporates. But I'll just share a snapshot of that Gucci example because it unpacks really, I think, 3 or 4 of some of the big points, which is one, Gucci at the time was undergoing a significant cultural and digital transformation. As I say, this was back in 2015 and 2016 when they were looking to be more relevant with the next generation as any organization, anyone on this call, what are we looking to do? Maintain and continue and sustain our relevance with the next generations coming through. That's always been the case. They were at a bit of an inflection point though, in the context of this big digital and cultural transformation. And they'd also realized, Marie, that they needed in the war for talent actually to be more intentional with their employees. And so hence, the Shadow Committee was born, which worked hand in hand, a group, a collective of millennials at the time, with the CEO, the then CEO and leadership team. And going back to these common points about listening, you know, I love the leitmotifs already emerging on this. It was about constant listening. You know, how do we better understand our consumers through the lens of our employee experience? How do we connect the two of them? And as we know, throughout time immemorial, the closer those things are, the more fluidity, the more agility that there is in terms of, you know, how those two things are coming together. Directly experience the consumer experience, we really start to get on fire in a good way in an organization. And that was certainly the case for Gucci. So that was a shadow committee constructed at the time. But the big why around why they were doing it, what they were looking to do, is important because I think what we've seen every time, this is what Patrick and I advise companies we work with, is never see a next generation board, one, as a shiny new thing. Second of all, never see it as a project or initiative, because we also know that so many organizations, as evidenced in the research, are drowning in too many projects and initiatives. So this is another great example in a next generation of board of doing fewer things well and sustaining them over the long term. So that's again, you know, we've seen countless evidence of this, but I think it also demonstrates actually we need to talk more about these next generation boards, why they're working, what they're doing, because I think again, if we look in sort of 5 to 10 years' time, the influence and impact that we'll have had as a result of them coming into being will be untold.

Thank you.

Anything I'd add, which is a fantastic description, Erika, is that sometimes we think Next Gen Board just applies to a younger generation, but many people are using the Next Gen name to think about the next generation of the organization, which is actually what Gucci were doing. And if you have a multi-generational Next Gen Board, it's even more powerful, I think, than Just a, just a younger one.

Yeah, or even just the current board to be multi-generational.

What about that?

Yes, absolutely, Marie.

Yeah, although that can be difficult with some of the heavily regulated sectors, you know, financial services, where the regulator really wants you to have 20+ years experience in banking or pharmaceuticals or whatever the regulator is.

Yeah, but yes, yes, I think the, the There is already quite a wide range, right? So 40 years of experience, I think if you take people with 20 years of experience, you already create that dynamic. So that could be a start to do it. Now, we love leaving our Proteus listeners with pragmatic advice. So expanding outside the boardroom, I'd like 3 practical steps leaders can take to foster better collaboration. Among a multi-generational workforce starting today? What can they do?

Maybe I'll kick off with one and then hand over to Erika. So at ESSA, which I founded and chair, so this is working on big systemic problems in African education, meet every new joiner. It's a relatively small organization, but I meet every new joiner. What I'm interested in is not just the classic things, but also What drives them? What motivates them? How do they work? How can we make it easy for them to do their job? Those sorts of things. And I found I had one of these conversations last week in, sorry, the week before in Nairobi, and wonderful young person. And they had, they made me think, they made me think about lots of things. And I think that they're going to bring something different to the, to the organization. But if I hadn't listened to them, if I'd just had a filtered version of that as it percolates through, I'm not sure I would have had the same aha moments and the same kind of motivation to, they inspired me. And as a result, we had a board meeting yesterday and I was saying, you know, I heard these things and what do we think? And do we need to change this? And do we need to change that? So, I think it's back to the listening really and putting the effort in.

I think one for me, Marie, is absolutely the nudge effect. And the nudge effect obviously goes back to the brilliant Kahneman and these discussions around the power of the nudge effect. But the nudge effect in the everyday is so important because I think a lot of organizations can get caught up on, it has to be the big thing and something that we talk about and we don't get there. We don't get to the extraordinary unless we get the everyday right. So I think that one nudge effect that we can all do in the everyday, in that process, we're reframing the narrative because we're doing it, we're role modeling it. I think Patrick and I were reflecting the other week, LinkedIn pulses throughout the year, a lot of research around how are these intergenerational conversations happening anyway? And that only came out a few weeks ago, actually how few conversations are happening across generations and even skip generations. So again, if we are thinking about what does that nudge effect look like for me, whatever generation I am, whatever my role is in my organization, am I modeling it? Am I doing it? And also, I think going back to the Gucci point about that shadow committee at the time, they didn't keep it as something behind closed doors, something sort of secret that sort of maybe we talk about only internally. They talked about it at conferences. It was in the media. So I think being very open about this, reframing the narrative and the process, and again, that power of that nudge effect in the everyday is untold because that's one of the best possible stimulators of behavioral change.

The final thing I'd say, just a quick one, is don't make assumptions. I mean, another organization I chair is the Royal Voluntary Service, and we have these centers in quite impoverished communities where we might provide hot meals for people who can't get hot meals and other things. And I was at one in Stoke recently, and there's this 86-year-old, and he works in the kitchen and he's a volunteer, and he serves people lunch, and he dances around the place. His body is clearly 86. His body is clearly 86, but his mind is like 21. And he's inspiring people. He's lifting them up psychologically. He's serving them. He's training young people. I mean, he's amazing. Yet the assumption would be of an 86-year-old person that they don't have the creativity, maybe they don't have the energy. Far from it. This guy was great. And I think we mustn't make assumptions. We make too many assumptions, I think, because we're time poor and pressured and so on. But I think free your mind of some of the assumptions which are not grounded in evidence.

And I think the final one for me, Marie, would be we can't do any of this unless we solve for collaboration. Collaboration is one of those, one of those organizational values. It's in the top 5 of so many organizations across the world. But I wonder if everyone were to really look hard and fast and to say, how would we rate our organization on collaboration, on collaboration in the everyday, on collaboration Collaboration across our business units, within our teams. That's a big area of disconnect, again, that came up in the research in the book. And it's there. And what is fascinating is, in the case studies, it's there in abundance, how they are building that collaborative muscle in what they're doing, how they're being more intentional. So, again, a lot of this will be possible. We'll get there faster. We will win together better. We will win together for good if we're able to really build that collaborative muscle in the everyday.

So many wisdom nuggets. Thank you so much, Patrick and Rebecca, for sharing those insights and expertise with us today. I really believe that 5 Generations at Work is not just a book, it's a toolkit. It's pragmatic, so you can navigate the future of work with empathy and effectiveness. So listeners, if you'd like to learn more about Patrick and Rebecca's work, you can find the book on Amazon.

Thank you.

And to discover how Proteus supports leaders in creating those inclusive multi-generation workplaces, helping leaders collaborate, Rebecca, visit proteus-international.com. Thank you for tuning in, and as always, here's to creating the life and work environment you truly want. Until next time.

We hope you're feeling better equipped to create the career, the business, and the life you want To find out more about how we support our clients in leadership, learning, and change, visit us at proteus-international.com. Have an excellent day, and thanks for listening.