#96 Creating a Powerful Positive Culture

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Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leader Show. My guest today is Laura Hamill, an organizational psychologist, ex-Microsoft director, and co-founder of Limeade, an employee experience software company. Through her firm, Paris Phoenix Group, She advises companies on how to transform their cultures. She's also a host at the Happy at Work podcast. I got to say, love that name. And her new book is The Power of Culture, an Economist Edge book. So Laura, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me, Erika. I'm excited to talk with you.

Yeah, me too. You know, we've— here at Proteus, we've always seen culture as a critical element of organizational success. You know, both for ourselves and for our clients. And so I'm thrilled to get your perspective on this. And I know our listeners will be too. I— our listeners seem to be very interested in the human side of things. So, okay, so let's just roll in. So the first thing I want to ask is, I, I really love your focus on aligning aspirational culture, what you aspire to, with experienced culture, what people actually experience as being the culture. So, so what do you see as the key elements for doing that?

Yeah.

So that's a pretty big statement, a pretty big question, right?

Yeah.

Just a little bit. So what I have found in my experience is that more and more organizations understand that they should care about culture, right? We sort of have an intuitive, like, understanding of that as just human beings and as employees that culture matters, that we should focus on it. So they know that they should focus on culture. But what happens is it sort of stops, right? It stops at, let's create some company values. Let's put them on our website, or maybe we'll even put a really cool decal on our wall when you walk in and check. Our work is done.

Right.

And so I see that most organizations have done that now, right? They know that they're supposed to have something that focuses on culture.

Yeah. So they take that first step.

Yeah.

They take the first step. Sometimes it's better done than other times in terms of like what those values are and how meaningful they are and whether or not it's aligned to their strategy, right? But, you know, a lot of companies have taken that first step. But what I see happening now in kind of the gap is that organizations are not making sure that that actual set of cultural principles or guiding principles or values are something, are things that are really experienced at work.

Yes.

In the day-to-day work, right? In a meeting behind closed doors, in the employee-to-employee interaction, employee-to-manager interaction, they're not doing the work to really embed and embody culture in the day-to-day work. And so I use this term in my book called cultural betrayal, and it sounds so dramatic.

Yeah, I know.

But it really is something that happens when people think, Oh, look, I'm gonna go work for this new company and I love their values. I'm so connected to that. I love what they stand for. And they get there and they don't experience it at all.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great, Laura. I've seen that a lot. And it's, you know, I really love what you're saying. And we talk about this a lot too, but it's such a critical thing that they don't, they, they just think intellectually like, oh, it'd be great if one of our values was teamwork. But then they don't go to behaviors. Like, what— how would that show up every day? How do we demonstrate that value?

Exactly. There's that embody piece right around the behavior. How do we make sure people understand what that looks like?

Yes.

How do we, especially for managers and leaders, help them see what they need to do to make teams—

To model it? Yeah, 100%. Yes. Yes.

Oh, also, What about the systems and practices that we have? So think about the practices around how we run meetings or thinking about the practices around how we might think about innovation and teamwork. There's so many ways you could think about embedding that particular aspect of culture that most organizations just aren't doing.

They don't do that work. That's great, Laura. And I love what you said about systems and process because there are a lot of— And I'm sure you guys have seen this all the time, that there are processes or expectations that actually disincent operating in the way that the— like, for instance, teamwork. We were just talking about teamwork. It's like, OK, but if I get rewarded for being a lone ranger and not working in teams, then that's never going to work out properly.

You're exactly right. I mean, it's not even just that it's not being reinforced. It's a lot of times that everything in the system is working against it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's just fascinating. And I see that over and over again. And then just another layer of that is the teamwork one made me think about this around, you know, how are we thinking about attaching what we say is important with our values to the company's success, right? It's like, oh yeah, yes, to the strategy or the vision or our purpose, and really being clear that we're not focusing on these things just because they're nice.

Right.

And it would be fun if we all did those things. It's actually imperative for our business success for us to be able to make a culture that looks like it has teamwork.

Yeah. Oh, that is a great point.

And that connection also doesn't happen a lot of times in organizations, right? So again, there's sort of these values that sit there that sort of feel isolated and aren't connected to an experience and aren't connected to the business.

That's great. And I'll kind of pat us, Proteus, on the back. Last week, 2 weeks ago, we had a sales conference and we have some new sellers and they had me do this section on how our values create competitive advantage. And, you know, that's the kind of binding together that's critical. If you can't demonstrate that, then why do you even have them?

Completely agree.

And it's—

I love that because you're— if you're thinking specifically about our business and what we need to achieve in the context and the situation for what's going on with us.

Yeah.

Um, it's, it's, it is the magic, right? It's the thing that makes the difference. It's the difference maker when you can figure that out. And unfortunately, I, I'm sure you see this too, but unfortunately, it feels like organizations just don't want to do that culture work. They don't want to do the heavy lifting, the rolling up the sleeves of really figuring that out and figuring out how it fits specifically with them, the unique That's right.

And I don't know if it's so much they don't want to do it as they don't realize how important it is. So it doesn't get prioritized.

Right?

Right. Completely. And they want to take— I kind of use the term culture cookie cutter, right?

Yeah.

Read the book by Netflix.

Yeah.

And let's just plop it here. We're done. Exactly.

Well, so let's talk about the dark side. So what are some of the big culture killers that you've seen? Things that leaders and organizations do that really get in the way, really have a negative impact on culture?

There's a lot. There are a lot of them. Well, one of them is, one of them is pretty simple. It's just this idea of just having culture being synonymous with fun and superficial level things. That's a culture killer, right? If it's like, oh, we're gonna— supposed— we're supposed to get together and have pizza. Culture check. You know, we're supposed to have margaritas on Friday. We're done with culture. And it's just really unfortunate. That kills really the the real meaningfulness and substance that culture really is around what really matters here, what, what we really value and care for. And by just thinking it's a party, right? Or—

Yeah, I love that, Laura. I'm, I've, you know, I've always, I've spent years railing against, like, that's not all culture is. But I love thinking of it as an actual culture killer because it really minimizes and superficializes What, what culture actually is and can be and should be.

Yeah. And it's so unfortunate because then employees just get cynical, right?

Yeah, about it.

And so that's, that's why it's a culture killer from my perspective.

All right.

I think the obvious one is when leaders don't walk the talk. When they, you know, one side of their mouth they say, this is what we stand for, this is what's important, and their own behaviors don't model that. So That is so in your face and glaring that I think a lot of us know that. But it still happens, right? It still is. I hear it all the time about leaders who just aren't role modeling the culture. But I think there's also another part of this. It's sort of similar, is when leaders don't look for opportunities to reinforce the culture or to course correct the culture.

Yeah.

They just sort of stay a little bit ambivalent to it, and they let things kind of happen and let things go. I see that happen a lot where employees— something will happen and it would be a perfect time for a leader to come in and say, wait, hold on, I thought that we were doing this instead of that. And this just happened. I was just in a leadership meeting the other day, and some leaders were talking, and you could tell they were trying to sort of COVID something up that had happened in the organization. There was an error that had been made. And I just realized, oh my gosh, they're trying to make it feel better for people. If they were, you know, well-intentioned.

Well-intentioned. Yeah.

What that meant was they were hiding some things and just like not talking about them in a transparent way. And so that's an example of like, wait, wait, wait, we said we're trying to be open and honest. We're moving really fast. Let's learn from this. Let's not just hide it and push it away because we're trying to save face for somebody. Let's actually just do it in a way that doesn't feel punitive, right?

Yeah, yeah. No, that's great to be honest about it and then to say, okay, this happened. This is not what we meant, right? Okay, how can we fix it or how can we make it better the next time?

Completely. I'll add one more culture killer. I was thinking about this. There's so many, right? We could talk on and on about it. But one more is just the idea of mandatory. And I think this is something that is obviously in the news, but the word mandatory is an interesting one to me. That in some ways is it— in some circumstances you have to be met. Like, if there's a tragedy, if somebody died, like mandatory meeting, everybody needs to come because we need to talk about this, right? There's a time and a place for mandatory. I don't think it's return to office.

Yeah.

And to me, it's, it's like a cop-out for good leadership. Why don't you tell me? Why don't you?

Yeah. Yes.

feel like I want to come in and be with other people, or that I'm so excited about what we're doing that I feel like we need to be together for that.

100%. Have the respect to talk me through your thinking about this and why you think it's so important so that I can make a decision.

Completely.

I—

somebody was just telling me, this is so classic, they just had a mandatory return to office video come from their CEO. Guess what? Where was that CEO when they were filming that video? At home.

Yes. Yeah.

Like, are you serious?

Come on. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, just, we, you hear stories like that over and over again.

These are great, Laura. Okay. So last question, you know, we always promise practical takeaways. So what are some things that you would recommend leaders can start doing right now to begin to positively influence their culture in their organization?

I'd say get curious, right? Just look at what is your culture right now. Talk to a few people. I— there's a really simple exercise that is pretty telling that I do sometimes with people. It's not an official culture assessment by any means, but talk to 5 people who you feel like would tell you the truth, you know?

Yeah.

Ask 5 people, what are 5 words that come to your head When you think about our culture.

Wow. That's great.

Write those 5 words down for each of your 5 people, and then look at those and say, do these have anything to do with our culture?

To do with each other? Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And what I find when I do that real simple exercise is sometimes people are absolutely using the values. Like, there's— they, they list them off, or at least some of them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Other times, it has nothing to do with the values. Like, there's not one— any overlap at all. And in other cases, It's even opposing the values. And so that just little mini assessment can tell you a lot about where is your culture relative to the culture you are striving to have. And that maybe you should do some more work with it.

Yeah, I love that. And what a great thing to recommend leaders do, because if they do it in a way where people are honest and then they come back and say, here's what happened when I did that. Where do we go from here? What do you guys think we should do? Then that really is reinforcing what I suspect are the cultural values.

Completely. Completely.

Oh, that's great. Oh, this is so wonderful. Is there one last thing you want to say to our listeners? One thing that you'd want to tell them?

Yeah, I'd say just don't give up on culture. I think sometimes people feel like it's so hard. It feels so ambiguous. But the hardest things are the most important ones.

Right?

And so I'd say take a step into it. Don't, again, don't think of it as something that's superficial, that's just an easy thing to check the box.

Yeah.

But be curious about it. Start talking about it. Look at your values. Think about, are these the things that are the most important that we need everybody to focus on in order for this company to be successful? And if it's, if the answer is yes, that's wonderful. Then maybe just talk about them more and get them to be more part of the day-to-day conversation. But if they're not, Make some changes. What do you need to, to really be reinforcing so that everybody's rowing in the same direction? And then it's more likely that you'll be successful.

Oh, this is wonderful. You know, we could go on and on.

No, we could.

I'm short and sweet. So, so listeners, to find out more about Laura and her organization and their work and to buy The Power of Culture, you can go to parisphoenixgroup.com.

That's exactly right. parisphoenixgroup.com. It's my kids' middle names. That's where that comes from.

Oh, nice. Oh, thank you so much, Laura. This has been great.

It's been so great talking with you. And you can also buy my book on Amazon and Barnes& Noble.

Oh, perfect.

Typical places, right? But thank you so much for having me, Erika. I agree, we could keep talking.

Oh, you're so welcome. And everybody, to find out more about how Proteus supports leaders to create powerful, positive cultures, just go to proteus-international.com. So thank you for listening, and until next time, here's to creating the life You truly want.

We hope you're feeling better equipped to create the career, the business, and the life you want. To find out more about how we support our clients in leadership, learning, and change, visit us at proteus-international.com. Have an excellent day, and thanks for listening.