#98 Managing Creative People and Enterprises

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Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Proteus Leader Show. My guest today is Ravi Ahuja, the newly named President and CEO of Sony Pictures Entertainment, or SPE. He was previously the COO and Chairman of Sony's Global Television Studios. So before he joined SPE in 2021, Ravi was president of business operations and CFO of Walt Disney Television. And before that, he was in positions of increasing authority, including CFO at the Fox Networks Group and Virgin Entertainment Group Inc. So Ravi, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Erika. Happy to be here.

I'm so glad to have you. This is going to be such a fun conversation. You're having a really fascinating career, I think, being a business leader, definitely a strong business business acumen and chops in creative enterprises.

Yes. Right.

And I just thought our listeners would be interested to get your perspective on the unique challenges and rewards of managing creative people and creative endeavors.

Yeah, exactly. Well, happy to share. I mean, it's very rewarding and fulfilling to be involved with creative people. It's complicated and interesting, right? But, but it's very rewarding when you actually see the end product in particular.

Okay, well, let's, let's dive into that. What do you see as being some of the keys to being an effective leader of people who are involved in artistic or creative endeavors?

Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, that distinguish, you know, the creative efforts, right, that you see versus Say normal business things. And by the way, if I go farther back in my career, maybe more than 25 years ago, I was involved in all kinds of other businesses, financial services and healthcare and other things. And I would say this business is different.

Yeah.

TV and film, it is different. The nature of the product, the volatility of it, the risk that you take, the personal emotion that people bring as they create things is very different than the creation of, say, a new healthcare service or a financial product. What does that mean? How do I think about it? I think it starts with a mindset, right, as a leader, right, as an executive in this. And I think you've got to start with having— when you deal with creative people, with having a shared product focus.

Mm-hmm.

So you have to be focused on what makes the best TV show or movie. You start there. Now, as a business executive, of course, I have to think about money, as an example, on the bottom line. But if you come into it focused on the bottom line all the time, you'll immediately be on a very different page and not aligned with creative people, people who create.

Oh, that's great. So simple and important. So to start with that core, are we aligned around the kind of creative product we want to create so that they know you care about that, so that you all know you're on the same page? And then you have to think about, is it going to be profitable and is it going to work? But— Oh, that's back to that.

You come back to that. So that brings you in from a point of view of empathy. Yeah, I'm with you. We're making a great product here. You have to know that this person is putting their personal name and life into something.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, you know, that's as an executive is not so much you. Look, we have here at Sony 200 TV shows. And we make 15 movies a year. So at one point, I'd go to all these award shows, the Oscars, the Emmys, and I would think, why do I not look forward to this? When people go to these shows, this is like the most exciting thing. And it just suddenly clicked. Oh, when you're a creator, you go to, say, the Emmys once every 10, 20 years, maybe once in your career. If you're an executive, you're going every year.

Yeah.

You care about your shows, like The Crown for us. You care deeply about your shows. But you're not the one creating them.

Right.

And you have to know that, right, as an executive. And you have to be empathetic to the people who create something, that this is them. They're putting themselves into it. As an executive, it's a little indirect.

Oh, that's great. So you have to be aware of the difference between your relationship with the product and their relationship with the product.

That's right. That's right. That there is— you're playing a slightly different role than they are. They're really creating, you know, me, I'm the left brain and they may be the right brain, right? Helping to shape their work toward commercial product. There's a saying in our business, it's show business. It's not show show or business business, right? That's the thing.

Yeah.

But you have to just remember, if you're in my role, you're not business business. You, you're helping to combine the two. and helping people who are creating the show and kind of creating those right sort of boundaries and helping to shape the work. But from a standpoint of empathy, really.

Yes, empathy is the word. I mean, you're a little self-deprecating about this. I know people really like working for you and with you as a leader. And I think that's one of the reasons is, is that you do a good job of balancing show and business. And they, and they know that you make that effort to really empathize with what their experience is, which is different than yours as a business Yeah.

And you have to be that way in this business. Otherwise, why work in this business?

Yeah. Yeah. Why? Go do banking. Yeah, exactly.

There are much easier things to do.

Yes. Yes. Much less risky. So then what are some of the pitfalls? What are some things that leaders need to watch out for to avoid when they're leading creatives?

Yeah. One of the biggest ones is being too skeptical, which is hard because when you rise as an executive, you're skeptic by nature. And you're rewarded for being skeptical and covering risk. But if you're too skeptical, you're immediately in opposition to creative people. And there, I think the key is style and tone. I really do. You can question a thing, but if you're doing it in the right way— I often think my greatest skill is not all the skills I've accumulated. It's I have a resting smile. I think—

Wristing skeptical fists.

Yeah, versus— exactly. Exactly. So things like that do matter a lot, right?

Yes.

And for example, when the IT team comes to me about a capital expenditure they want to make, right, and be more overtly skeptical.

Yeah.

We have a style and tone that reflects that. I think with creative products, when somebody's personally risking themselves, that makes a negative tone will kill creativity. Because there's so much uncertainty in it that it's so easy to make somebody say, okay, I'm not going to do it.

That's a really good point. I have a dear friend who runs a creativity consulting company. He always says that, that it's so easy to kill a young idea.

No question.

So when somebody first comes to you with an idea and they're not sure, if what you lead with is, I'm not sure, then, you know, they're not going to do it.

That's right. And by the way, that's true of things. Just to take it away from just purely creative work for listeners who, who are thinking about other things and other businesses, even an M&A idea, right? A company you may be acquiring. There's so much uncertainty. If as a chief executive, you're questioning all the time, it's important to question. But if you go too far with it, people will say, okay, I'm not going to do it. And it'll create a risk-averse culture.

That's a really good point. And I also think it's the order of events. I mean, if somebody comes to you with a new idea, whether for M&A or a new software platform they want to develop or a creative endeavor, and your first thing is curiosity and possibility. Yeah. Then you're in collaboration, and then later you can say, well, have you thought about this? Or I'm a little worried about this. But if you start open, then it makes it easier for the conversation to unfold, I think. Right?

That's right. That's right. And while we're on the topic of pitfalls, the other one that occurs to me always is, is particularly with Content that's not necessarily new and that's out there. For example, Jeopardy! and Wheel of Fortune for us are good examples.

Yeah.

You have to realize as an executive that people get caught up in this concept of ownership. We own the shows, right? But you don't own the essence. The essence of the show is owned by the people who create it and by the fans. And that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing.

Yeah.

It's a really great— it's like a sports team. Right. The Cleveland Browns. I grew up in Cleveland. The people in Cleveland don't think that the Haslam family owns it. They think they own it.

They own it.

That's an economic arrangement, but the essence is owned by the people. And that's very powerful when you have that, like we do with Jeopardy! and Wheel.

Yeah.

Then you have to remember that this, this ownership is an economic arrangement and a responsibility to do the right thing. But you have to think about it a little bit differently and then come at it in a way that's more shared. It's not, you know, I'm the boss, I own it, this is what I'm doing.

That's a great point, Robbie, because if you— if as a business person you did come into it thinking, this is our show, this is my show, then you're likely to make decisions that don't really acknowledge that primary ownership of the fans and of the people who are creating it. Yeah.

Yes.

Oh, that's great.

Yes.

Okay.

You know, all that said, you can't undermanage.

Yeah, you can't let it go. You have to.

Yeah.

Well, so let's go there. We always promise practical takeaways in this podcast, especially if somebody is new to leading creative people or a creative endeavor. How would you advise them to begin? What are some of the most important ways to get started?

Yeah, I think it's really important to be versatile. And you and I have talked about this in the past, is you have to use a lot of different influence tactics, and sometimes they're different in different circumstances. You appeal to higher goals, you appeal to friendship. That's commonly a thing. This is what I need from you. You do need to, to the point about under-managing, you do need to appeal to authority that we just can't do this.

Yeah.

You know, legality, like, that's not legal.

Right.

Fear of failure. What are the fans going to say? All of these sorts of things, you have to use them as different influence tactics. So I think that's a very important thing to realize. There isn't one way. It's not just shouting. It's not just being a friend. There's a lot of different tactics that you have to use. And I think particularly with creative people, you have to be interesting. They come in. It's interesting to me, some of the most prominent people in the world are actually intimidated meeting with a studio head, right? They think you've got some, like, deep knowledge and you're scary.

Yeah.

But being interesting and funny and having stories really kind of puts people on the right footing. By the way, this is beyond just creative people. That's a human thing.

Yes, yes, yes.

Particularly true with creative people, but with creative people in particular, it's, it's realizing that they have a different currency. Their currency is not money. Their currency is immortality, is personal expression, is sometimes catharsis, fame. So if you're coming at it saying, this is how we're going to make the most money, sometimes they're on a different page.

Right. That might not be motivating, or at least initially motivating, or as motivating as some other things. Right. So as I'm listening to you, it's like you have to have a bigger toolkit, more influence tactics, more ways of thinking about the goals and why they're important. You just have to open up your aperture in terms of what tools to use.

You do. You do. And that's true if you're dealing with regulators and politicians. Creative people, it's not the way you deal with people in a budget meeting, right? We're all united around bringing up our earnings. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, this is so great. Oh, we could go on and on, but I was pretty short and sweet. So thank you so much, Robbie. This is so intriguing.

Yeah, always good to talk about this stuff, right? This is what I spend my life doing and enjoying. spending my life doing. It's fascinating, endlessly fascinating. I'm constantly learning new things. We should do this again in a year.

Okay, great.

There's always something new.

I think this has much— I mean, we're talking specifically about media, but so many endeavors now. I mean, if you're a head of marketing or if you're running a software company, there are a lot of the things you're saying are really true because people are doing creative endeavors of various kinds, right?

That's absolutely right. Hopefully everything I've said is just— that's how you deal with human beings, right? I think it's just maybe in the— in our business, it's a little heightened.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. Well, thank you so much. And listeners, you can find out about the latest productions at Sony by going to sonypictures.com. And to find out how Proteus supports leaders to manage diverse teams and enterprises, you can just go to proteus-international.com. So thanks again, Ravi.

Great. Thanks, Erika.

See you soon. And thank you for listening, everyone. And until next time, here's to creating the life you truly want.

We hope you're feeling better equipped to create the career, the business, and the life you want. To find out more about how we support our clients in leadership, learning, and change, visit us at proteus-inc.com. International.com. Have an excellent day, and thanks for listening.