Why Lifelong Love Requires Discipline and Empathy | Advice from Elders in 69 Minutes

What advice do you have for people who want to have a long, happy relationship?

You have to invest in it. Not money necessarily, although that doesn't hurt. You have to invest attention. Listen. And listen to more than the words. Like maybe if you're having a quarrel and you're really mad and you're saying things you don't really mean, because we all do that when we're fighting or disagreeing. Take a breath and remember the good parts of that person or relationship and back off. But the important thing is to listen, not just with your ears but with your mind. And it doesn't go for just your husband or your romantic relationships, but your relationships at work, at home, with friends. They all require A person who will listen and try to understand what the person is saying.

A life partner is the most serious choice you'll ever make in life. And I was fortunate I made the right one. I've been married for 66 years, 2 days ago.

Wow, congrats. And so how do people find that partner? Any advice?

No, I don't know. It's just a sense, you know, when you got the right person. But it's a commitment, you know, it's a lifelong commitment. And what I see today is people aren't as committed as I think they should be. Oh, well, you know, didn't work. Try somebody else. I don't get that. Anyway, it worked for me.

So I just celebrated 12 years with my wife. So you're giving me something to aspire to, which is great.

Well, good for you.

Speaking of your husband, what's the greatest lesson you think you've learned from him over the years?

Don't agree with me. It is very important. If you hear, if you have a man that every time you say something, he goes, yes, yes, yes. What is— there's no fun in life. You're married?

Yeah, yeah, I'm married.

Your wife doesn't say yes, yes, yes to you all the time.

That's true. She's from China as well. So yeah, yeah.

She's from China. She must be telling you what to do. No, my father listened to my mother also, only in this simple living way. Career-wise, no. Career-wise, they're together, so they're compatible. I didn't say that, but he— my father was the top person in civil culture in China before the communists took over. Now you probably will ask me, what is sericulture? You probably never heard of this word before. It's to do with silk. That means raise your silkworms, grow your mulberry trees well so that silkworms will benefit from the good mulberry leaves, and you'll Then the worms will produce very good silk, which you can sell around the world or leave in China to process into silk materials or such material called brocade. You probably heard brocade before, shiny with floral things, and it's made out of silk, pure silk. And that's where I came from.

And how was that transition coming to Canada?

Because this is the country you cannot grow so cold. It's too cold, too cold for growing of mulberry trees. So this culture would never come to China— to Canada. But we're— we came to Canada. You know why we came to Canada? It's kind of fun. When we're of university age, we ran— not university age, well, when I was I was 13 years old, the communists took over China. So my father had worked for the previous government. We were well off enough to leave the country. So we moved down to Hong Kong, learned the language and all the blah, blah, blah. And then when we finished high school, in between, my father worked for United Nations. So I lived in Afghanistan before. Salam alaykum. Anyway, when I finished Form 5, those days, grade 12, 1950s, that if you go to the US, I was too lively. My parents didn't want me to go into Hollywood and get lost. And so we couldn't come go to United States. Then they want to send us to England because my father was in Afghanistan, of course, no school. So England, those, they're starving. They couldn't even feed their own people. No, the best place, Canada. So we came to Canada. Well, when I first took, When I first arrived in Canada, I almost died. Wow, what a boring city. Sunday, they close the doors of the theater. No movie theaters even. Yeah, you don't know that because you weren't there in the '50s. Yeah, imagine no movie theaters. I mean, the only entertainment when we arrive in a new country, what can you do? Well, anyway, they let you have in. They have theaters now. Yeah, that's how we came to Canada.

To tell you the truth, I started going out with my husband when we were both in high school.

Okay.

And then we were married, we were both 21. And we were married for 65 years. Wow.

I just celebrated 12, so I've got a long way to go.

55 years. Not too bad.

What's the biggest lesson or gift you got from your husband?

My husband was a wonderful partner. He really was. I mean, first of all, he was a very talented person on his own. You see, when we graduated from medical school, I was the top one. In my class, and he was second. And every one of the 6 years, except one, I stood first and he stood second. But the year we got married, because we got married halfway through medical school, he was first and I was second. He was a wonderful musician. He was a very good teacher and an excellent— he was an excellent family doctor. Doctor. He really was. I had a lot of confidence in things that I could share with him and that he did. He was, he was really good as a family doctor. And he was very supportive. He would be very supportive of me. He'd read my manuscripts when I wrote articles. He'd correct them. And I'd say, not just the commas and the periods, it's the content I want feedback So what I learned from it is what a wonderful partner can be.

I don't think I was the nicest guy. I used to play around a little bit. But you learn that you have to be nice to each other. That's the only way you can survive. Like, you know, you can't fool around and make a marriage and you have to help each other so much. And trust each other. I was married twice. The first marriage, I had two good wives. And, you know, it was two pretty good marriages. My second wife, she, you know, she was a good person and she helped me a lot. Like, I was very shy person, like, you know, and she helped me in a lot of ways and it made me a better person.

For people watching, how do they find that person that makes them a better person?

It's a game. It's a chance. Some people fall in love for different reasons and some people fall in love 'Cause the person sort of is good to them and you're good to them as well. It works out. But, you know, there's so many different things that can happen. Nothing works perfectly.

What's the biggest lesson you learned from your mom and dad?

To care about other people. That's how I would sum up social activism, to be very They were very sociable people also. But what I learned from them was what it means to be a progressive person in this society.

It seems that the care extended beyond— like most people, when you say care about other people, they just think about their friends and family and the people closest to them. But for you, it seems like it's, no, care for the world, care for the country.

Not the whole world, but somewhere in between.

So you learned that from your parents of caring for—

Well, from my parents and their entire circle of friends. I mean, the type of people that they associated with were people who thought like they did.

Do you think everybody would benefit from military service?

Not everybody, because I think there's people who, A, they're pacifists and, you know, don't believe in war. But I'll tell you, the best, the strongest pacifists are soldiers. Once they know what's going on, they don't believe in war either. They'll do their duty, of course. It's a terrible, terrible way to solve international problems. But, you know, the war— the world is not in a very good place right now, and there's always that threat. But so I think unfortunately countries need defense forces.

I think it even just the structure and the discipline and the education.

At one point, I commanded the Canadian Forces Recruit School, which meant that every single Anglophone recruit across the country came to the Recruit School for their first 12 weeks of training. And it's really convert them from civilians to basic service people. And at graduation, we'd always have a reception, and parents would be there, and a nice parade, and all that. And I've had so many parents say, it's a miracle what you've done for our daughter or my son. They're polite. And I make them read. They tidy up. They're wonderful adults.

What's the key to getting young people to follow you?

You mean in a stressful situation?

Well, just in general. I mean, you're taking people— that's a difficult transition from civilian life and their you know, old habits and ways of thinking to now being in the military, be part of a machine. How do you get people to follow you, to agree with your way of seeing things, to do what you say they should do?

First, they have to have an understanding of what their role is and what your role is as their leader. And treat them with respect. Firmly when necessary, but the discipline and the routine, it all— and teamwork. They all become very proud of being part of a unit.

How do you get people from all sorts of different backgrounds, religions, cultures to then function well as a team?

Well, that sometimes is a challenge. I had the first group of Indigenous recruits come to me at the recruit school from up north, and it was a challenge for them because the environment was different. You know, you have experienced trainers and they know how to handle these people, and they did a great job. The idea of sending these Inuit down to us was to make them service people, and then they would go back north, would be posted and stationed up north. None of them wanted to go back north. In, in a sense, the experiment backfired because they all wanted to stay, you know, in southern Canada. So, and some did, you know, they molded in very well.

What's something you used to think mattered a lot but realized wasn't important as you got older?

Well, there's lots of things, I think. You know, I suppose when we're younger, we pay— women especially pay more attention. I still pay attention to how I look, but as a young person, you really are almost obsessed. When I was a kid, I was very worried because I had a bump in my nose. And when I was a young girl, you know, 14, 15, I mustn't look I'm not going to let them take my picture from over there because I've got this horrible bump in my nose. How you look is not as important as you think. Because what you project, I think, in your face is how you feel. And if you're interested in the person you're talking to, things go better always. And you have to listen carefully with your mind as well as your ears.

How would you define success? And do you think you've had a successful life?

If you're happily married and you got kids and, you know, you all love each other and you help the kids, that's success to me. Not like I said before, not becoming a millionaire. Like, I got 5 kids. Very lucky. So I did my job.

What are you most proud of with your kids?

My kids, I'm very proud of them. My 3 boys, I got them to read when they were young, Rich Dad Poor Dad. You ever heard of that book?

Oh yeah, yeah.

And they never worked for anybody. One of them is a professional poker player. He made about $13 million. Dollars, but he lost quite a bit of it. And the other one, he had all kinds of businesses. He had 14 stores all over North America selling drones. Then he had to stop because the big companies got hold of it. They know it was selling, so they bought him off. And the other one, he sells motorcycle parts all over the world. So they work for themselves.

Have you learned any lessons from your kids?

I don't think so. I think they learned it from me.

Honest answer.

I like it.

Well, I must have learned something from them.

What's the regret that you've learned an important lesson from?

My biggest regret is that I did not complete university and get a degree. It's always sort of bothered me. Of course, when I finished high school, and I did pretty well, my parents couldn't afford to send me to university and there weren't the same programs available, scholarships and that kind of thing. I did win a scholarship in high school for $200, but I just turned it down because it wasn't very helpful in terms of going to university. So that's when I enlisted in the Army and I was there for 28 years. But whenever I was stationed in one place long enough, you know, I went to university. Like when I was in Ottawa, I went to Carleton to earn some credits, and then the University of Manitoba started a program by correspondence, so I got a few more credits there. I ended up with 3 years of university, but I never had the opportunity to finish it because I was away too much and that kind of thing. So it just always sort of bugged me a bit.

What's something you used to think mattered a lot but realized wasn't important as you got older?

Oh, I think everybody thinks money is a lot important, but I came from a very well-off family, so it never really bothered me. But then as I got married and had my own family, I thought having money is important, but it's really not that important. If you do well, it comes with it. You don't have to work very hard for it.

What would you put ahead of money?

The important thing— respect for other people and honesty. To me, honesty is the most important thing. Looking back, it's still the same.

How do you teach people to be honest?

That's your own conscience. You know you're honest, you're honest. If you're not honest, you want to lie, no one can stop you.

How do people get the courage to listen to that inner voice? A lot of people struggle with the courage to actually listen to that voice.

Maybe some people lie because they don't have the courage to face the fact. But then of course, my character is a little different. Like I said before, I enjoy a challenge. So the answer was sometimes honesty is bad. It hurt people. But the word is, it doesn't bother me so much if I— well, of course I hurt people. I don't want to, but I'd rather not to lie.

So a lot of people struggle with that. Like, you know, you're going to hurt somebody, but—

I'm still honest. To me, I'm still going to be honest. I understand other people struggle with it. They don't want to hurt other people. The best I can do is no answer. But if you want me to give you an answer, it's going to come out honest.

Are you still taking on challenges and competing now?

No, no, my challenge is keeping my husband alive. It's, well, he's 98 going on 99. He came from a family of 7, and all his siblings has gone. But I happen to think I fed him the good diet and made sure he live a good life, clean life, healthy life. To keep him coming, getting up to this age. And you're going to get a laugh out of it. He's a medical doctor, but I'm the doctor.

You're the family doctor.

I'm the family doctor. Yeah, I did study dietetics, so I do know what food is good for you, what's bad for you. I think that helps.

What's your secret for a long, happy, fulfilled life?

Now, there's a new book. I don't know if you've seen it. Well, it's not that new, but a couple years old. It's called "The End of Old Age," and it's not death. This is a gerontologist who says the people who live the longest are the ones who enjoy life, who have a project. Maybe they're interested in art, or they're interested in music, or they're interested in people. People who stay engaged as they get old. Forget about the number of years. Not how many years you're gonna live. 'Cause we can't tell that. I mean, we may take good care of ourselves and get really obsessed with that. And this guy says, "Don't be so obsessed with that stuff, you know? Think about what are you gonna do next?" And that's something I certainly ask myself a lot. Oh, here we are, we're in a seniors' residence. And it's something that all of us, I think, think hard about. Do you really want to live in a community of only older people? But of course, you can stay engaged with lots of other people at the same time. And it's important to have a kind of a plan, like what next? That's what I think is important. And I think people who are looking for what meaning of life, purposes, they don't have to be grand important projects. But I want my kids to know I love them and I support them in what they do. But I'm not a helicopter mom, never was. We have one fellow in Barcelona who's a musician, who teaches, and who is also— he's quite well known over there as a trumpeter. And my other son is also musical, but he said, "No, I'm not gonna be a musician. I want a life." Because, you know, musicians are limited. They don't have— opportunity to become really famous and wealthy. Now, Dan and Laya, his wife, are both professional musicians and they've done all right. They have two little kids, so, 13 and 9. My other son said, "No, I'm not going to be a musician. I want to have a life." David and I always laugh and say, "Well, we're not sure exactly what he does." But he prepares businesses mainly in television and cable programs, but big ones. He prepares them for takeover either by another person or go public. He loves what he does. The funny thing was he never liked math when he was in school, and here he is working on this company and how much money its making and is it growing, is it a good company. He prepares the company and the employees for takeover. He hasn't very often stayed with the company. That usually means the end of that particular job. But he's always got a lineup of people because he's good at what he does and he loves it. He reports directly to the CFO and the CEO, so he's fairly high up in it. But he's also a people person. And I think a lot of people who are in financial business jobs are more obsessed with money. What's the bottom line? What are we going to do? He has to know that, but he also has to be able to relate. To the employees. And, you know, and he loves what he does. And so far, at 58, he's usually— I don't want to jinx him— but he's usually got a job waiting somewhere. You know, he's never worried about it.

What's one thing you believe young people today should focus more on?

They should focus less on the internet and their devices. You can learn a lot, and I agree, you have to stay up abreast of technology. I mean, that's important, but I think there's a lot of time wasted on texting and gaming when they should be doing something more useful.

What should they be doing instead?

Maybe nurturing relationships like friends and family, and you can't do that texting. It's not the same.

If someone watching is struggling to figure out how to go chase their career and ambition, but also be nice, and they think it's— they're two different things, you know, like in order to get ahead, you have to be mean, you have to step on people.

Well, you have to work hard in your life. That's the only way you're going to survive. But some people work hard and they still starve. Like I was watching a movie yesterday about this guy that went to space, Mexican guy. He was picking— they were coming to the States from Mexico, the whole family, picking corn and stuff like that. They were getting paid next to nothing, and his dream was to go to space after he grew to a certain age. And he ended up doing that. He tried about 31 times, and he wasn't allowed. Then he went there in person, and he got in. That's a dream. You get something that you really like.

When did you decide that you had to be a voice and you had to stand up besides just being a practitioner?

Well, it sort of came upon not as a eureka experience, but first of all, both my parents were fairly active socially. And so I think that in my growing up, I was aware of social activism, of justice, and the impacts of poverty and things like that. That was in my background a long time. I became an advocate really— it was an interesting experience. In 1975, it was declared the International Year of the Woman. And the Canadian government sponsored workshops across the country. And I was a neighbor of Betty Stevenson, who was at that time the first woman president of the Canadian Medical Association, and she was invited to do a workshop in Shelburne, Nova Scotia, but she couldn't go, she was too busy, so she asked me to go. And I did some preliminary readings, and that was the first time I became aware of this issue of women's health that I mentioned to you. It was a lovely weekend, I went out there, we did several workshops, and the women there were so grateful, and they said, how did you in Toronto know what our problems are here in Nova Scotia. And that was the eureka. And when I came back, I began to read and talk and attend conferences and begin to understand about women's health. Now, I wasn't the only one. There was a big movement in the United States and also in Canada. This is in the '70s, so you know that there was a lot of movement then in terms women's rights, women's health and so on. So I wasn't unique.

Maybe not unique, but I mean, a lot of people just kind of accept the status quo or don't have the courage to voice up and don't want the criticism.

That's true. And I had many patients while I was in practice because I didn't go to McMaster till the end of the '70s. And they were acting out the fact that They had expectations. They were supposed to be the good wife, you know, who took care of the house and took care of the kids and, uh, housebound to the husband. And, uh, that's how women were expected to be in those days.

What is your secret to living a long, fulfilling life?

A, you have to look after your health. You need to pay attention to avoid bad habits like smoking or too much alcohol or too much fast food. You need to pay attention to diet, exercise, and I don't think the youth of today is getting enough exercise. You know, we were brought up, you know, you're out in the summertime for sure, you're out on the street playing until the sun went down. So we were always fit. But I don't see that today. I see too many overweight youth and not enough physical activity. And I think you have to look after your health starting at a young age because habits, bad habits, start eroding your health. So you need, you know, regular checkups as well. It's important.

So looking back, what advice would you give your younger self?

Maybe I should have a bigger family. That's all. I have 2 children and they're in their 60s and I enjoy them very much. But I was just too busy to live my own life. I decided there's no more children. And that was a mistake.

If somebody is just at the beginning of their career, they just graduated university and they're starting off, what do you think they should focus on?

Well, you've got to focus on beginning your career. I mean, there's no question starting career building and let's have medical practice or develop any kind of reality in any other profession. That takes full time. Then you have a young family. So in order— or you're married. If you're young, you're going to have a young family. The pressures on the person are very hard. And I think it's only reasonable to expect them to focus on that, at least initially, but not forever.

If someone's watching this video and they are trying to find their purpose, their happiness, what they should be doing with their life, what guidance would you give them?

You know, my dream is always— it's a dream every day. I got a picture of the wife and I, and I always tell God, lift it up and then have this miracle. Give me $250,000 trillion. To help all over the world, plus $1 million to help somebody close by in Toronto, like, you know, plus $33 million from CNN to do all this on camera, plus get people that you make If they want to pay you more money. I mean, you got enough money with that to give you money. And plus everybody in Northtown be perfect. Just make a miracle that they're good and then give me a job altogether to help the world.

You wish for that every day?

Every day. There's a picture. When I'm watching TV every day.

What makes you want to help the world instead of just yourself?

We're all the same. You know, there's so much waste of food. Then there's people that don't have anything to eat, nowhere to sleep, nothing to wear. You know, and then there's people that got too much and they waste it. And it shouldn't be like that. It should be, you know, we should all be the same.

Like I said, what was your dream growing up?

That was my dream.

Did that come from your parents? What motivated you or inspired you to have such a big dream?

Mostly because I read about the Emigrants in the Mediterranean, like, you know, that they're escaping just to get a better life. And people in Mexico trying to get there, in the United States, and things like that.

Do you have a favorite mentor from the Army that you learned a lot from?

Well, there were several. Because there was a lot of very good leaders. Some not so good, but you know, there were some very good leaders, which one would expect from the Army. One was a general by the name of Dextrose, who was Chief of the Defence Staff when he retired. He was very, very good with people, and he set a fine example.

So what did you learn from him?

That other word again, perseverance. Look after your men and then they'll respond to you. That's the key message. Treat people right and don't belittle subordinates ever. And that applies to all facets of life.

Looking back on life, what advice would you give your younger self?

I don't believe much in advice. Advice. For instance, if I were talking to myself, I would say the one lesson that I didn't learn soon enough was to listen to myself. And most people should understand that when things happen, like if you get an illness or you have an accident, you're the person who knows what's happening and you know pretty much what you need, although you have to take the medical advice given to you by your doctor. And a good example of the sort of thing I mean, I was a rider, a horseback rider. I had horses and I was just practicing, I was just riding and I was training. My own horses had died, so I was leasing horses. And I had this young horse who was very, quite highly strung, part thoroughbred. And I was bringing him along with the help of a man who used to be be one of the Olympic trainers. And so I was bringing this young horse along, and on this particular day he was a bit jumpy, and I had been riding for almost an hour and my right leg was getting tired. I had broken it earlier, not riding a horse, walking. And this young woman who also rode that horse, but she's a professional rider, and she said to me, because I was doing things in particular fashion. And she said, you know, you should really do that at maybe a trot, or more sensibly, even a lope. So I said, well, to myself, mm-mm. The way I was training this horse was we did everything properly at a walk first, and then as he got relaxed and used to the dressage exercises that you do with a horse, then we'd go on to a trot and And finally, we would go on to not a gallop, but a 3-gated run. But she said, "Oh, no, no, he's fine. He's fine. You'll be fine." My head was saying, "You know what? Your right leg's getting tired." And sure enough, that stirrup got loose. And what happens is a horse is kind of like a passenger in an airplane. In other words, the rider's driving, telling him what she wants or he wants to do. And I thought, I don't know, but okay. She's been doing this for a long time. She's younger than I am, but she's professional. So I put him into a canter and my right leg began to lose its stirrup simply because it was tired. And as soon as that happened, you know, your seat is not secure. Okay. And the horse feels that, and he thinks, "Oh no, I mean, she's in charge." And he got nervous, and he began to gallop a little bit, and I lost that stirrup. And I thought, "Okay, I'm coming off whether I want to or not, so I'll make the choice." which is what you really should do. So I shifted my weight and I got my reins where I wanted them. And unfortunately, I curled my back like this as I went down and I hit the floor middle of my back and I broke my back. So what's the lesson there? The lesson is I knew, I was thinking when she said, "Go, you know, try 'em at a canter, it's much smoother." And I thought, mm-mm, no, this horse isn't ready for that yet. We do everything at each— but I thought she probably knows better. Big mistake. Big mistake.

How do you develop the discernment to know when to listen to the voice in your head versus the experts who know what they're doing?

I think what I'd like to say to my younger self is, you know more than you think you do. Always. And if you're not sure, don't do it. Whatever. It doesn't have to be writing. It can be anything. And it's important. I'm sure you as an interviewer, you know when things are not going— they're going sideways on you and you have to sort of listen to yourself like, okay, stay calm. Just take charge again and take it forward. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I would say to myself, Yeah, you've been around the block a few times, you know a thing or two, listen to yourself first. Today it's different because the young people today, I think, show evidence of feeling very entitled. Okay, when I was a little girl, if I wanted a bicycle, I had to earn half the money and that kind of thing. We were not entitled to anything because the first thing was the family looking after itself. So that, I think, for young people, I would say you're not entitled to much. You're entitled to love and attention from your parents, but you're not entitled to expensive things that you think you want or permission to be out late. You have to get permission if you're a kid today, right?

How do you want to be remembered?

I should be remembered as a person who is an activist in my profession, as I described, but on the other hand, as a very loving mother and grandmother, because I'm very lucky. My two surviving sons are wonderful to me, and I have seven grandchildren, and they all get along well with one another, and I love them and they love me, so that's a wonderful thing to be proud of.

What advice do you have for people trying to find meaning and purpose?

Chart a path for you that makes sense for you and focus and stay committed to that. Be prepared to learn as you go along in case there's obstacles or whatever. You may learn from that and may have to make a detour or whatever, But the ultimate goal, stay focused on that.

Do you have a story from your past, or did you struggle with that at all, or where you had to make a courageous choice?

Yeah, I did. I guess the most difficult time, I served in Gaza for 10 months with the UN peacekeeping. And during that time, there was no phone service. There was no internet. There were no such— You communicated with your wife, I did, by mail, and that took a long time to get a response and so on. Anyway, but I learned she— I knew she was pregnant when I left, so she was carrying our first child when I was over there, and she had her first depression while carrying this child and was admitted to a an institution in Guelph called Homewood Sanatorium, and that was difficult. And of course, I couldn't— I was a long way from home. I wasn't allowed to return home, except because I was the aide-de-camp to the commanding general. He had— he was an Indian officer. He had to go back to India for some reason, so I really had nothing to do. So I arranged to get a flight home, and I did, and I saw my wife for a week, which was wonderful. But then I had to go back, and that was the most difficult decision I've ever made, was to go back. But she encouraged me to do that because, you know, it was my career and my duty was over there. I've always been so grateful that she understood that even in her condition, but she got better and produced a wonderful child, which I didn't see for 5 months. So such is life.

You talk about books, so Rich Dad Poor Dad. Is there a book that you think every young person should read today?

The Diary of Anne Frank.

What's the biggest takeaway for you from The Diary of Anne Frank?

Well, the way people helped each other. You know, they protected her and things were good.

What's the most courageous thing you've done?

Learning to ski. That's fun, but it's really my profession. I never had the opportunity of finishing university because I got married when I was very young. Well, you know, my husband, I mentioned, he's almost 9 years older. So he's already graduated, is waiting for a wife, but he got himself a young wife who only got 1 year university, University of Toronto. All my life I wanted to have a career because my mother was a career woman. My father and mother did very well together in China. That's my origin. I came from Shanghai. So my first opportunity after I got married was to go with a good friend of mine, my bridge friend, to see a computer. Never seen a computer before. So everybody said, professors, all playing bridge players in the University of Toronto said, the best place to see a computer is not University of Toronto, go to Ryerson's Tech. That's those days. So my friend and I, we registered, and we went to Ryerson to see what a computer looks like. And where I learned computer programming, graduated well. I was already in my mid-30s. That's raising my children, having a bridge career. So by the time— and— I applied for a job in Ontario Hydro. They hired me immediately because the bosses want to play bridge with me at lunchtime. It wasn't my ability, it wasn't because I graduated on top of the class, but I went in and I did well. In other words, it didn't take me long to keep moving up. Eventually, My biggest challenge was installing Ontario Hydro's payroll system for about 28,000 folks in a new system. Those days it just came out. They call them databases. These things are all large, huge computers. Databases ran the payroll system. That's what's the very— and I supervised a team of programmers. We put that system on and then paid the folks the very first shot. Well, everybody paid correctly. It doesn't happen very often. They usually bounce back and forth a few times. So I was very proud of it. Having two children, I didn't know I was proud of. I know I am very proud of them now. To me, there is a lot of trouble. Well, try raising two little kids two years apart.

There's a level of ambition in you where you could have just gotten married young, been a housewife, raised a family. And that was your life, but you chose not to. You chose to compete, you chose to strive, you chose to not accept the limitations and go and create a better life for yourself. Right. A lot of people struggle with that, with not settling, with believing in a bigger vision for themselves than what was kind of handed to them by society. What advice do you have for somebody who's is on the cusp and is just afraid to take the leap?

Well, my advice was, first of all, you have to know your own capability. Understanding yourself is the most important thing. If you cannot take a difficult challenge, then no use trying. I would say know yourself. But it's not easy to know yourself. Everyone thinks they're smarter than themselves. They don't think they're smarter. They think, how do I say it? Would you like to say, "Hmm, I'm stupid"? It doesn't make sense, does it? So it doesn't matter what level your intelligence at, you always think you're the best at your level.

Did you have any role models or heroes growing up? People you respected, learned from?

No, I don't really have. I just want to be myself.

What does success mean to you and do you think you've had a successful life?

So far, it's not over yet, you know.

True.

I may be older, but I'm not dead yet. So what's important? To be happy in what I'm doing. If you don't like your job or your position in a company, quit. You've got to take risks in order to proceed. And I think our ideas of success are too limited. Like perhaps I do an interview or something and I think, oh, that went really well. And that's happy, that's success. And so you have to learn to listen to yourself and realize what makes you happy is often the success. And also to be learning as you go. Everybody makes mistakes, but no mistake is without a a solution, if you want, or a way of changing, especially as an artist or a musician or doing an interview. If you feel, "Gee, that was really awful. I hate that. I'm sorry I did such and such," then you play it back to yourself, "Oh, that's not so bad." Like quite often we judge a thing wrongly. And you have to give it time and say, "My, that was really important." Maybe what we do sometimes is important to another person. In other words, I always mentored people no matter what job I had or just— and it doesn't mean giving them advice because I think you really shouldn't be too free with advice because it has to be so particular to the person. And the most useful advice is to tell them, take a deep breath. And be serious about what you want to achieve in whatever it is you're doing. And sometimes something you think has been a disaster is a real success. Maybe you touched something in a person and gave them some confidence or some reassurance, and you didn't even know you did it. And for me, I think that's the biggest success. If you can be seen as— well, I think of it as a loving thing. I think I'm a loving person. I have good friends and my kids are secure and I have a great husband. Those are successes. So be careful what you're counting as a failure or a success because you can be dead wrong.

What is one thing you believe young people today should focus more on?

They should focus more on peace and on democracy. I think the world is in a very worrisome place right now.

What can people do? I think a lot of people feel hopeless and like, I can't do anything, I don't have a voice. What do you recommend people do?

Well, some people have a voice, and more and more people should have a voice. The politicians will only respond to tremendous amount of pressure. They do make some changes here. In the last few years, as imperfect as they may be, we have childcare. We have the beginning of pharmacare and dental care. So those are not in response to Trudeau's good wishes. They're in response to the pressure from lots and lots of people.

What's the most important lesson you learned from each of your parents?

They're both from modest backgrounds. When I was, oh, a young teenager, I guess, I thought I knew everything. And so my father wasn't very smart in my view. When I was in my early 20s, I suddenly realized that he became very smart. All of a sudden. And I thought about that for a long time. I wonder how that was. And I realized it was I became a little more mature and I didn't know so much when I was younger. He wasn't all that well educated and so on, but he knew life, he understood life, and his advice was always appreciated and worthwhile listening to. It was enjoyable to chat with him, and I always regretted looking down when I was so smart, you know, a young teenager, and I didn't know anything. It took a while to realize that.

And what about your mom?

Well, she was a wonderful, wonderful person. My father went overseas in 1940. It was interesting. He was in the militia, Reserve Army, you know, as a sort of a hobby. When war was declared, his unit in our town was activated for active service, and so everybody was re-interviewed. He was 40 years old and 5 kids at home, so they said, "Thank you very much, but we don't need you. Look after your family." He didn't think that was right because he was very patriotic. He hitchhiked 100 miles to Montreal to join an infantry unit, the Black Watch of Canada, and he was sent overseas. An infantry soldier at 40 years old. My heavens, you know, that's a 20-year-old game. But once he got to England and they realized that, you know, he was too old to be a combat soldier, so they made him the camp electrician. So he served over there for 4 years, just helped, you know, round the base. So my mother was raising 5 kids at home, you know, without my father, and we were brats. So it was a real challenge, but she was wonderful. She did a great job. We all ended up pretty successful, so Kudos to her.

Do you have any regrets that you learned a valuable lesson from?

One regret. One time I used to work for this guy, and me and the wife weren't getting along together. He having trouble with his wife, and he beat her up. And it's working good. So I didn't beat my wife up, I just slapped her. But I hurt her. I regret that right now. It was awful because I wanted her to play. But I did it with her and I regret it all the time. I don't regret leaving her, but I regret hitting her so much.

If you went back and talked to younger Louis, you know, how would How should he have dealt with that situation with your wife at the time?

I would have took it easy and take my time to get things better, because it would have worked that way. But you know, this guy, the boss, he ruined me because I'd never hit anybody. Never. I tried it and it, it hurt me even now.

Do you have a regret from life that you learned a valuable lesson from?

I have lots of regrets. I mean, I'm sorry in the way that I wasn't the kind of daughter I think I should have been. I regret the fact that I had 3 boys, but the middle one was adopted. And he died young. You know, everybody has regrets in life. You couldn't possibly go through life with no regrets.

For someone who is struggling to listen to their heart and find the courage to do it, because they might have a story like, "I'm bad at math, so I can't be good in business," or, "I'm an artist, so I'll never make money," and then they never chase their dreams down. But they know what's in them. What advice would you have for them?

I'd say forget your idea of what success is going to be. If you engage in whatever it is your position or your job is and you really put your heart in it, you like it, and you maybe have a goal in your own mind, like I would like to— when I'm interviewing this person, I would like to help them identify what it is What is it that makes you tick? What's your hope? But I'd say stop worrying so much about success and follow your heart. Like too many parents and other people in kids' lives or older people's lives say, "Oh, don't do that. If you do that, you know, blah, blah, blah." Like, "Don't be an artist. Don't be a musician." I never said to either of my kids who had the talent and the ability to be professional musicians, I never said, "No, you can't do that because you'll never earn enough money," blah, blah, blah. No, I helped them find teachers and they've done well, both of them. Danny's a great teacher and he mentors all his students really well. He taught hockey. Can you imagine? He was a coach of a hockey team in Barcelona when he first went over there, aside from playing the trumpet. So change your idea of a goal and do your best at what you're doing. And for instance, if we do this and you're doing what you want to do, you're trying to find little nuggets that might be helpful to people as they grow up or as they grow into their career. That's what's important, finding something that you're doing that you feel is meaningful.

What's one book you think everybody should read?

Well, I guess the obvious one is the Bible, but some people wouldn't believe that. Anyway, I don't know, but in terms of authors, I was a great admirer of Churchill. He wrote a series of 6 or 8 books on the history of the war. His way with words was amazing. You know, he had a great command of the language and used the right adjectives in the right place very effectively. He was a great writer, very knowledgeable.

What's the biggest lesson you learned from Churchill?

Perseverance, I think.

Never give up, never give in.

No, not at all.

How would you define success, and do you think you've had a successful life?

I had a documentary made of me, and at the end of the documentary They said, would you do anything different? And I said, I'm very satisfied with my life. There were tragedies in my life. There was great successes, lots of things. But overall, I am satisfied with my life.

What's something you used to think mattered a lot, but realized wasn't important as you got older?

Getting rich. You know, when you're young, you always dream of getting to be a millionaire. And then you— what's the matter? It doesn't make any difference.

So what's more important?

Be happy. Like, you know, when I keep saying the same thing is get along with people. It's very hard sometimes.

Why do you think we struggle with getting along with people?

Because we're all the same. But sometimes religion divides us. We'll have to learn that thing, that we're all the same and we can do something about it to help people in need.

What made you want to join the military?

Um, well, I don't— I'm not really sure. I knew my grandfather was In the British Army for a while, and then when he came to Canada, he joined up the Canadian Army, was in World War I. My father was overseas as a soldier, and I had uncles, and well, of course it was wartime, so that's not surprising, but I suppose that influenced it, and the fact that university was not on the cards for me. So I had no regrets about that. I served for 28 years.

That's great. Thank you. Looking back, what advice would you give your younger self?

My younger self was— it took me a long time to begin to believe in myself. I had very accomplished parents. My father was very strong. I felt that next to them, I really didn't have much, much, period. It took me until my 30s till I began to feel confident in myself. I wish that I hadn't gone through that. I mean, I did very well in medical school, but I still didn't give myself the credit for that.

What changed in your 30s that led to the confidence?

I grew up.

Was there a life event or a—

No, I think what happened is after I graduated, I went into medical practice. I was a general practitioner together with my husband, and we did very well in our practice. So I think it was the fact that people began to believe in us and trust us and so on. And as I say, I grew up.

What is something you wish people appreciated more?

Each other. You know, you have to like each other. That's a problem sometimes.

How do we remember to do that when there's so many, so much chaos happening in our lives?

Well, when you get to about 35 or so years, you should be able to do that. When you're young, you know, it was always, you get some kid that's a little strange and everybody laughs at him, like, you know, But when you get to a certain age, you get away from that and appreciate everybody.

Looking back, what advice would you give your younger self?

It's the same thing. Just be good to people. Be nice and help people that are in need.

Is there a regret that you have that you learned a valuable lesson from?

I always get mad at God.

Okay.

Because, you know, when I was young, we learned that he could do everything. But then I realized that we're all God. We can do his work all together and help, help out.

Did something happen that helped you make that switch?

No, not really. But you look at, you Look what's happening in the world, like, you know, and it shouldn't be. We should all get together and help each other.

How do we do that? What would your guidance be?

It's like the trouble they're having in the States now with the immigrants, like, you know, Trump is talking about to send them back and even kids. We just have to share things. So to make things Easier for everybody. It's hard. Like, I read the news or look— read the news almost every day, and I watch what's happening in Europe. These immigrants are drowning almost every day, and they're being taken advantage of by some crook. They charge them a lot of money to bring them over to different places in Europe. And most of them drown. That shouldn't be. Some organization should help them.

How do people pick the right goal?

You need to ask Solomon that.

Talking to Gordon?

Well, I guess it's whatever you're comfortable with. They can't be— pick them out of the air. You have to give some thought to it and be assured that they sort of fit your— what you want to end up as. It's not easy.

Yeah, I think a lot of people really struggle with knowing where to go and what to do.

I think so. And there's so much knowledge in the world. All the knowledge in the world has been generated in about the last 10 years. I mean, think of that. That's amazing. And so there's a lot to learn. And technology is moving so fast. We'll all be replaced by AI robots and so on. We have to be on top of things.

Yeah, a lot of the advice you've been given is great. And I think you keep coming back to know the goal, know the mission, and stay focused and get on top of it. I think a lot of people— end up picking the wrong goal, the wrong mission, because they're supposed to do it, or somebody coerced them to do it, or they think society wants them to do it, as opposed to figuring out the thing that's in their heart that they want to do. So do you have any guidance or wisdom of how to listen to your heart and find the thing that you're supposed to do?

First thing, don't be afraid of failure, because you can learn from that. And you maybe adjust your goals or take a different path. But don't be too discouraged with failure because that's how you'll eventually become a winner.

What do you define as success? And have you lived a successful life?

I found I live a successful life. I feel I've done very well career-wise. I worked for 26 years. I'm living on a very good pension and benefits from Ontario Hydro. This you can't compare. Hydro is not the same anymore. They don't call them Ontario Hydro. They call them OPG, whatever, divided into 4 different companies. The people that's retired is Ontario Hydro. We still enjoy the benefit. And career-wise, the longest career I have was 26 years in Ontario Hydro. I done well playing bridge, but I can't play bridge, make a living. Not in Canada. You can do that in the US. Professional bridge players gets paid a lot of money to play with rich players who pay them a lot of money to play in competitions, in tournaments. But in Canada, we don't do that. They don't pay you. They gave you a good present just for fun. One time I played with someone. We drove down to Buffalo to play. We came back. Let's put it this way. He gave me a great mink stole. It's how well you get paid. We cannot accept money. That was before I started working in the computer, with the computers.

So what would your definition of success be?

I have to say it two ways. A happy family life and a good career, challenging career that you can manage. That is my— life, and then I'm happy with my life.

Is there a final message or final story that you want to share that you think people could use right now?

Right now is a— that's a very good thing to add because we are living through a difficult time, humanity, really, not just you and me. And I think it's very easy to feel in this situation the whole world. I mean, look at all the countries in Europe, they're all struggling. We have to remember that although we don't have a huge role to play in our, in our positions in life, but we have to do the best we can and pay attention to the people around you and keep things in a way scaled down instead of getting frantically upset about the direction of politics, for instance, is taking. We can't control that more than voting and participating in whatever way you're capable of, volunteering or, you know, contributing what you think is important to that party. And I think that's all. And never forget, the most important thing is the fact that of loving people, enjoying their company, or paying attention to how people are.

How do you deal with loss?

I cry.

I cry a lot. I regret when I lost my son. I lost my husband 7 years ago, and I still miss him terribly because We were both in practice together. When we left Toronto and went to teach at McMaster, we were both together. And we shared all our interests. And you know, to this day, when I meet someone or something interesting happens, I want to share it with him. He's not here.

How do you want to be remembered?

As a fair person. I had something though. That I don't bring up. It just really reminds me all the time. I was driving a truck and I lost the driveshaft and coming down the hill and there were kids crossing the road, people crossing the street there, and I couldn't stop the truck. I was protected by somebody then. Somebody looked after me because it was so obvious that I was going to hit somebody, but I didn't, thanks to God and my guardian angel, if there's such a thing. And every day I try to stay away from that road because it reminds me it could have happened. It could have changed my whole life. And I was about 24, 25 then. I was very, very lucky.

What is something you wish people appreciated more?

Probably what they have and they don't realize, you know, what they really have. You hear a lot of politicians complaining about The country is broken. I won't mention any names, but we're pretty lucky, you know, and most people should be satisfied with what they have. Maybe it's a little envy of other people or whatever, you know, but I think we underappreciate what we have.

What do you most appreciate of what you have?

Well, in terms of family, friends, I mean, those relationships are really important in life, I think. And maybe they don't put those in the asset column enough.

What is something you wish people appreciated more?

That's an easy one. Especially as you get older, you understand that life is short. I have so many things that I haven't done yet and I will do. And it's really important because you always think as you're As you're growing up and so on, it seems like you've got forever, right? And all of a sudden you're losing friends or, you know, you have to think hard. My concentration is always, what am I gonna do next?

What's on that list of things that still has to get done?

I don't have a list, I just in my head. I'm an artist, I paint. I've mainly just painted for myself. So that's really important to me to have to have a project like that. I also try to work with the people here. We talk about good ideas for projects, and my husband and I would like to travel some more. We have two boys. My oldest son is 60, the next one is 58. So when people say, how old are your children? I say, well, I don't know, they're older than I am now. In a way it's true because they have more responsibilities, right? The main responsibility David and I have is each other, make sure we stay well and we stay engaged in life.

What's on the travel wish list? Where do you want to go?

Well, we booked ourselves— we both had some health issues in the last year and we're fine now, and we've booked a cruise in the Adriatic.

Okay.

And after that, we'll go directly to our son Daniel, who's a trumpet player, a musician. He teaches in a musical, a music school, and he has a number of orchestras that he plays in, big band, jazz, and he's quite well known in Spain. But, of course, he doesn't make the sort of 5% that makes a fortune. But he loves what he does, and he's a very good teacher. The kids really enjoy him, and he's got a good sense of humor.

So you're not just visiting one country, you're going to visit the whole world.

We're going to visit that one country, lots of countries, and then we go to Spain, to Barcelona, where we'll spend time with his family, Danny and his two 2 little kids. Being a musician, you don't earn really a lot of money, so they waited to have children until they were older. So their kids are 13, and I think a girl 13 and a boy who's about 9.

What is something you wish people appreciated more?

I think they'd appreciate more the right to speak up when they have a thought or they want to advocate for something. I find that in many cases where I've worked and even here, people sometimes feel strongly about something, but they're afraid to speak up. I think they cheat themselves that way.

Why are people afraid, do you think?

They don't want to be seen as stupid. They want to be seen as complainers. They want to be seen as dumb, whatever it is. But I spent my whole life as an advocate, so I can't sympathize with them.

What did you speak up for?

Well, I'm a physician. I was a family physician and I became a professor at McMaster. My chief interest, aside from the medicine itself, was to promote the careers of women physicians and also to promote women's health because in the times when I went to medical school, women's health was having babies. That was all.

The work you did has had a big impact since when you started?

Yes, there was a lot of things about women's health that wasn't just related to reproduction, although that's a very important part of women's health. But the issues were that women were not being seen as separate from men. All the teaching, all the research, all the treatments were on the basis of what was found in males. So there was a lot of work to be done about women's health, and it's come a long way. The other thing about women physicians is when I went to medical school, there was a strict 10%, uh, quota of women students allowed in. Now, in almost all the Canadian medical schools, women outnumber men in the first medical year.

Wow.

So it was 10% maximum were women.

Right.

Wow.

What is something you wish people appreciated more?

Everybody is different. One person may appreciate one thing and other people, something else makes them click.

Is there anything that you have found personally that you find more happiness with appreciating certain things more?

My life, I always like to win. Whatever interesting competitions, fun, if you're playing a game, it doesn't hurt to win. But the reason I enjoy winning is I don't mind losing. So if you want to compete, Don't cry if you lose. And that's how I look at it. That's why I enjoy life. I compete so I win.

What win are you most proud of?

Oh my.

You've done a lot of winning. Winning?

Well, first of all, in 1965, my partner and I are the North American ladies' bridge champions. That is Canada, US, and Mexico. 3 countries. We're the top one. That's not the only one I won. I won many bridge competitions. And eventually, actually in 1964, in 1968, I represented Canada in the World Bridge Federation competition in the ladies' team. In other words, I enjoy competition.

To see another amazing interview in our Elders series and get more life advice and wisdom, check the video right there next to me.

Me.

I think you'll love it. Continue to believe, and I'll see you there. So we're here with Lillian, 86 years old, gonna get some life advice. You ready to go?

Life advice? Okay, let's try.