The First 10 Words That Instantly Ruin A Sales Conversation | Vanessa Van Edwards

Let's pretend that I just called you, right? I am a potential client.

Vanessa, how are we doing?

Oh, you would say, how are you doing?

How you been?

Oh no, no, no, no, this is great. Okay, you were doing so great and then it was terrible. It was terrible. No, we are trying to be easy to talk to. If I ask you, how's it going, and you have an autopilot answer that There's no hook for me. It didn't give me anything. I can't comment on that. Do not trap your customers. Do not put them in conversation traps. In sales, there are vitamins and there are painkillers. So a vitamin is, I should do that. I should have my vitamin. It makes me healthy, but it doesn't fix anything in the moment. You have to remember it yourself. A painkiller is, I have a headache or a backache. I need to find that painkiller right now. I'm gonna take it and I'm gonna feel immediate effect. In your exploratory conversations, it's really great if you have that idea in mind to search for what is this person's pain, right? Like, what is the painkiller that they are looking for on a day-to-day basis?

All right, I am excited. We have a very special guest in the house, a titan of industry, Vanessa Van Edwards, author of the book Conversation Welcome aboard, Vanessa.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so just grateful for our friendship. You have just been this, like, angel in my career. I don't even think you know. You know, like, I'll just— I'll pop open Instagram and, or, you know, YouTube, and there you are, like, talking about my book and just being so kind. And then I was like, can I interview for my book? And you're like, of course. And I just want to thank you for being generous. So thank you.

I love it. And it's great to be able to talk and have a conversation about your book, Conversate. We'll link it up below for everybody watching. This show here, Taught by Titans, the idea came to me and Nick. So Nick is a sales pro on my team. He's 26 years old, obsessed with getting better and learning and improving. Like, why don't we start a show, a coaching show where I bring on my friends who are titans of industry and have them basically tear into him and help him get better? And one of the things he wanted to talk about was he's in sales. So how do you have better conversations? Like, okay, well, if we're talking about conversations, you know, Vanessa just wrote a book called Conversation, so let's have her on to talk about it. And, uh, you could tear into him, give him your honest, brutal feedback. If he cries, it's great. It's awesome.

Great.

Uh, so don't hold anything back. And, uh, Nick, let's kick it off, man. What do you, what do you got for Vanessa? How are you gonna learn here?

Yeah, 100%. Well, Vanessa, let me just say it's, it's awesome to, to see you here and to be in this environment. For every tear I shed is an extra 100,000 views. Okay? So do not hold back. It's completely fine.

Cool.

Right? I told Evan this too.

It's completely okay.

Like, rip into me. Evan had a show called Tell Me Why I Suck. I want you to tell me why I suck. I already know I said how you do it.

No, first of all, you should know, we should just get this out of the way first, is I am a people pleaser, so I don't do one-on-one coaching because I am too scared to tell you the truth. Kind of, not really, a little bit. So I'm going to be the last. If I have bad feedback, it's going to come in a poop sandwich. Okay? So no one's crying today, I hope. And I will try to be my harshest. I'm going to try to be my harshest self. I'm not very good at that, but I'm going to try.

Let's do it. So I think the best way to start is just giving you like a super quick nutshell as like to me, right? So we can best spend this next 45 minutes effectively. I'd like to think I'm a decent communicator, right? Especially since sales is what I get paid to do, right, for a living. I feel like you have to be somewhat good at talking. Small talk bores the absolute crap out of me. And, you know, I was watching some videos from you and Conversations talks a lot about this as well. It's because, you know, we're not asking the right types of questions in the beginning. It's the typical banal ones that nobody likes talking about. But the thing is, I don't network enough because of this. And I know that if I get great at mastering like those level 1s, It can go into, you know, level two, level three. So I want to start there. You know, understanding more about the underlying frameworks that you have, like with the different types of levels. If I can understand the frameworks and know exactly what I'm looking to get out of each individual stage, then I think that would help me a lot too. Because in sales, it's the same thing, right? You ask a question, you typically wanting to get a specific answer back. So I think that would be a really good place to start.

Let's dive into sales tactics because. Sales conversations or conversations that need to lead to a sale are actually slightly different than your average conversation, right? Or they should be slightly different. I think that there's kind of 2 ways we can think about this is there's rainmaking conversations. So those are, you're out in the world, you're at a networking event or even at the grocery store, or you're at a friend's barbecue or a holiday party, and you are having conversation out in the wild, but someone could be a potential client.

Right?

Like, those are potential rainmaker conversations, or like, you're, you're potentially harvesting a really great connection that could be a potential client. That's one type of conversation. They're more exploratory, and we can talk about that. And the second one is, we know why we're here on this call or this meeting. We're talking about a sale. So we have to get through the 2 to 5 minutes of small talk to get to the meat of this meeting. That is a pre-sale conversation. They are different. They should be approached slightly differently. And I think it's important to think about those when you're in sales. Are you having both kinds?

Very interesting. I'm more so, it's like when people book in, they're coming from, you know, an ad. So it's more inbound appointments.

Yeah.

Um, but I've always liked the idea of being more of like an evangelist, you know, going out, striking a random conversation and then being able to potentially help somebody with something that we can do here. Like, I think both work, but the predominant— I guess the bigger thing that I focus on with our conversations is the inbound side.

Okay, great. And by the way, like, just internally, we also have a sales team, and I love listening in on sales calls and seeing which ones go well, which ones don't, how qualified a lead is, how much they know ahead of time. Luckily, none of that really matters for those first 2 to 5 minutes. It will matter once we get to the sales discussion. But that banter, that, wow, we are connecting, We are on the same page. The number one goal in both types is to be very easy to talk to. This is a little different than I think the way that most sales folks approach it. Most sales folks approach like, I gotta impress, right? Like, I gotta, I gotta put my best foot forward. That's good too. But being really easy to talk to is like lubricant for the rest of the conversation. You wanna set the stage before you even get into why did you call, or here's my product or service, is this is gonna be really easy. It's gonna be frictionless, right? Like, I am receptive to you. I am very deeply listening. I'm gonna either let you take the stage or I'm gonna take the stage. And this is the first concept I wanna, I wanna bring up. Well, actually, there's 2 that I want, I want you to think about. First, and you probably already think about this in sales, is in sales there are vitamins and there are painkillers, right? So a vitamin is, I should do that. I should have my vitamin. It makes me healthy, but it doesn't fix anything in the moment. You have to remember it yourself. Very rarely does something happen in your environment where you're like, oh yeah, my vitamin, unless you see it. A painkiller is, I have a headache or a backache, I need to find that painkiller right now. I'm gonna take it and I'm gonna feel immediate effect. In your exploratory conversations, it's really great if you have that idea in mind to search for what is this person's pain.

Right?

Like, what is the painkiller that they are looking for on a day-to-day basis? The problem with that is, in the heart, the challenge is that's a level 2 question. In this book, I talk about 3 levels of conversation that, and this is not my research, this is Dr. Dan McAdams' research. He found that as humans are connecting, they're trying to move through levels. Level 1 is general traits. This is that, Where are you from? What do you do? Got any kids? And it's really important that we do that level, but we do that level well, because we can get in a lot of traps in that level. Very boring, scripted, right? We can get really vague answers. So we really wanna get to that level. We can talk about that level in terms of openers, but what we're trying to do as sales folks is get to level 2, which is personal concerns. Personal concerns are someone's goals. Their worries, their motivations, their core values, their personality. Most sales, we're trying to hit what is your motivation, like what is driving you or what is worrying you? What is a pain point that you have, whether that's revenue or, or bad skin or bad people skills, right? It's some kind of pain point. So we have to very quickly move from level 1 to level 2 to be able to get to that answer.

Nick, how do you, when you were just on a sales call that you stopped. Yeah. To come here, which is great. So, you know, you can follow up with them tomorrow. Uh, how do you start your call then? Like if, if Vanessa's calling in, she's interested in joining Movement Makers and yeah, growing her YouTube channel. Awesome. What, what do you do at the start of this call? You don't know Vanessa yet. You know, how do you start off the call?

Let's make this even more real, Evan. So I just, a little history. Let's pretend that I just called you, right? And I'm like, okay, cuz I, I, I am a potential client. I started YouTube in 2007. No one was on YouTube in 2007, not really. And I was teaching you in 2007, which very few people were doing. And I started to get, uh, videos that went viral. My first really big video went viral in 2011, and it was great. We were having all this traffic through 2011 to 2019. The channel was growing tremendously. We hit a million subscribers, and then something with the algorithm changed. I don't know what it was, but all of our traffic stopped. Basically, all these videos that we were putting out that were really high-quality videos, it would not show the video to our million subscribers. We'd get like 3,000 views or 4,000 views. And so I was like, I can't figure it out, I'm done. And I switched most of my attention to other social networks that were, were showing my followers my videos. So we spent a lot more time on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook simply because we haven't— we don't understand why YouTube won't fix our videos. How could you help me?

Okay, good deal. So are we starting in the very beginning of the call or which part here?

Let's just pretend that I came on and I said, you know, here's my background. You said, why are we on the phone today? What would you have asked me? Actually, that's a good question.

Just unloaded on you, Nick. Let's go.

What do you got? Yeah, yeah, I love this.

Great.

This is what I'm talking about.

Yeah. So, I mean, in the beginning of the conversation, like, if you and I were to first connect for the very first time, I'm getting in the habit of asking more engaging questions. Did you have a good weekend? Any exciting plans for the weekend? Right. Mondays and Fridays, middle of the week, struggling. But say that it's Friday. Vanessa, how are we doing?

Oh, you say, how are you doing?

How you been?

Oh, no, no, no.

Nice to see you.

No, this is great.

Okay, you were doing so great. And then it was terrible. I didn't even start. It was terrible.

No.

Okay, Nick, if you ask me, so how you been, Vanessa? I'm going to be like, good, thanks. Busy, thanks. Fine, thanks. No asking, how are you? How you been? How's it going? What's up? Any form of that question, do not ask it. You are triggering. You're telling their brain this is going to be like every other interaction you've had. telling their brain to flip onto autopilot, and no one can make a good purchasing decision if they're on autopilot, right? Like, like if we're on autopilot, we're gonna say no, no, no, no, no, no, no, right? We're, we're afraid to spend money. We're afraid to take risks. So no more of that question. That cannot be your opening question. So I want you to actually start your first 10 words. So let's do the first audit. What are your first 10 words? This is on a call, in an email, in a DM. Like we do a lot of sales before someone even gets on the call with us. We're DMing them, right? Are you DMing, Nick?

No.

Okay, so someone's already been DMing, right? Like, they— or they got to your call somehow. Maybe it was by an ad. So what are your first 10 words? I like them to be positive and gratitude, or positive and a sparking question. It's your choice. It's what's most comfortable to you. And you can actually use the same one. You don't have to overthink this every time. So that could be, oh, I'm so happy to see you. Thanks so much for spending some time with me today. Could be that, right? Because if you're starting with something positive and gratitude, everyone, every single person feels busy. Like you can assume that a pain point that every one of your customers or clients has is they are busy. And so if you're immediately thanking them for their time and showing that gratitude, they're like, yeah. Thank you for my time. Yes. Right. So you're immediately validating that the first choice that your sales, your, your, let's call them a customer. The first decision your customer had to make was to show up on the call, right? Like we have no-shows on our calls, right? And because they had to make a decision, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna show up. And that meant they had to say no to something else, no to something on their to-do list, no to something in their inbox. So let's validate that very first decision. And I wouldn't say, I know you're busy. No, do not say that. All you're starting with is gratitude. So avoiding anything negative. So, like, I wouldn't— I don't like when sales folks will say, you know, I know you're really busy. I know you're really busy. Just gonna take a few minutes. No.

Real quick. Real quick.

No, no, no, no. Don't do that. No, we don't want to prime for what we don't want. So we don't want it to be quick. If they want it long, let's have it be long. Right. If they're busy, we can assume they're busy. We shouldn't acknowledge it. We should only acknowledge it with gratitude. Right. So thank you so much for being here. So positive gratitude or positive and an opener. So, oh my gosh, it's so great to see you. Thanks so much for hopping on today. What's been the highlight of your day so far? Actually, no, in this sales situation, I wouldn't do that. It's too much. What's been the highlight of your day so far is actually too much. I think it's too much too quickly. I probably would soften it even more, more casually. I probably would say, what's been good? It's probably what I would say. But let's pick one for you. What would feel natural to you?

I like what's been good.

Cash, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, very cash.

Let's try.

By the way, side note, I asked my wife yesterday from the video that I saw with you what the highlight of your day was for number one.

Worked very well.

She's like, you've never asked me that question before. I'm like, yeah. So, and then we watched the video together and she was like, oh, that's where you got it from.

Okay. So she's like, oh, you're the growth mindset. So for a partner, for a child, for a colleague you already know, I love what's been the highlight of your day. That's great. In like a new sales conversation, it's a lot. It can be like, it could be a lot. So I ask my children that. I ask my husband that all the time. That is my go-to opener for like people I know. But I If I don't know someone, I'm not doing a ton of sales calls anymore, but I do talk to a lot of like my speaking clients and I'll be like, what's been good? Right? Or if it's a Monday, if it's a Monday, I'll ask, did everyone have a great weekend?

Right?

Or did you have a great weekend? Now, let me just make a note here. So if you ask a positive opener, and I'm encouraging you to do so, right? Like to not, to not ask just what's been up.

Yeah.

Likely 90% of the time they're going to say yes. And they're going to tell you the good thing. Oh yeah, you know, just dropped my kids off at school. We're back in school. You know, yeah, you know, I saw I went to a soccer tournament or whatever they're going to say. Ten percent of people are not going to be good, right? Ten percent of people are going to say, you know, it's been a really rough day. It's been a really rough day. In fact, on this call, I did that. Like before we started recording, y'all asked me very basically, you know, how's it going? And I was like, it's been. It's been a wild week. It's been a wild week. And then I told you something else that was interesting. If someone says it's bad, that's also an opportunity. It's an opportunity for you to show empathy. It's an opportunity for you to learn something. It's even an opportunity to skip the niceties and go right to level 2, right? So all you have to do here is if someone's like, oh my gosh, you know, it's been just a— it's been kind of a crazy week. Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry to hear that. Well, we're gonna make this call super pleasant. You know, I hope this is the easiest part of your week. I hope this can be the highlight of your day.

Right?

So like either asking them more about that if you're comfortable with it, or saying like, look, no pressure here. Like, let, let this be the easy part. I'm so sorry to hear it.

Right?

So both are opportunities.

So— Let me ask you something, cuz I have a, you can, you can tear into me too. You can tell me why I suck, Vanessa, on this. 2 things that I would default to, I've never thought about it, so you can say it's great or it's completely stupid. Um, I'll either compliment the mission. So I'll be like, Vanessa, like, I love how you write books for introverts. Cuz like, I'm an introvert too. And, and blank, right? Like, I wish I had this when I was getting started. Something 5 minutes from looking at their website that you can like absolutely connect to, or their Instagram personal connection. You went boating in Italy or whatever and saying something like that. Yes. If I find information.

Yes.

You like that one? Okay.

Okay.

So good. You're not just telling me that though, right?

No, no, no. I'm gonna tell you why in a second, but tell me your other option. Tell me your other one.

The second one is if I can't find anything on the person, then something about their background. Like, I'm, I would look at you and say, it looks like you have the sun behind you right now, and I've never seen a background like that in my entire life of doing this.

Okay. So I love all 3 of those. Um, those were 3 options that you have. Now, I did not give the option of giving a compliment because it can be done so poorly. Like, I am very, very careful. Especially in sales, to encourage people to compliment because it can come across as so fake. And that is the destruction of all rapport. You have an even slightly inauthentic compliment and you are gonna ruin connection. Like, it's worse than starting from zero, it's starting from negative. So I didn't advise it. However, the way that you just did it, Evan, is very authentic, right? Like, it's very authentic. It shows research, it shows preparation. So I will give a caveat, which is If you can, in those first 10 words or those first few seconds, give a truly authentic, well-researched compliment, I love it. The other option that you mentioned is actually potentially looking for me too moments. Me too moments are like, oh yeah, I also have that, or I lived in that place, or I went to that school, or I saw you went to this game and I love that sport. Those are also wonderful. Mutual or commonalities are, are great if they are authentic. So I love those 2.

So what I'm hearing is like it's high risk, high reward.

Yeah.

But is it actually higher reward? Like if you do it well, is it better than a standard opening?

Yes. Authentically and well, if you do it authentically and well, it's gonna skip ahead. It skips ahead the, you know, what's been good. You're gonna skip not necessarily level 1, but you're gonna skip ahead to let's get past the— we all know That the first question is like an opener. We know this instinctively, so it helps us like skip that opener, right? Like it's gonna speed up the connection. You also did something really interesting, which is my, one of my favorite approaches in social situations, which is curiosity. This is a really hard one to manufacture, which again, I'm always hesitant to advise it. But you said, wow, that background, it looks like a sun. I've never seen that before. That authentic curiosity is so great because it also allows me to share a story. Can I share why I have this background?

And I'm curious.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Like, what a great way. So what a great way to open the conversation because one, it tells me so much about you. It tells me that you're a thinker. It tells me you're curious about me and that makes me feel heard and understood, right? Like if you're asking a question about like, you know, I noticed in your, in your profile that you did XYZ, you know, I was thinking about doing that myself. Well, now I'm an expert, right? Like, now I get to tell you something about this story, about my choice. So if there's an opportunity to ask a curious question, um, even if— especially if it's about expertise— oh, you know, I saw that you went to that, the new restaurant in downtown. Uh, did you like it? Should I go? I've been, I've been thinking about getting a reservation. Oh, chef's kiss! But it's so hard to do that inauthentically. So if you, if you see the opportunity, take it. So my background, I have this So I moved to a new studio about a year ago, and I asked AI to research me. I said, I'm Vanessa Van Edwards, go research me. What do you think should be in my background? And it found this light, and it told me that I should use it as a commonality with a Renaissance angel.

Okay.

Like, talk about AI sucking up. And it got me. I was like, well, AI, thank you. I am a Renaissance angel. Thank you for— you know, in the Renaissance photos how they had, like, the glowing halo?

Yep.

And I was like, you know, and it found the ring light. It, like, found the light for me. It told me to put my books next to it. And so this is AI designed, literally sucking up to me, and it totally worked.

You also told me in the intro that I was your angel. So we have this angel theme now going.

That it is our theme for today.

My AI just says I curse at it too much.

So there's that.

So, Nick, do you want to— let's try the harder ones if you don't mind.

Let's practice.

Let's practice the harder ones. So I'm just going to give you a second. Give me an opener that's not just positive. It's not just what's been good, because we know that works. If you were going to open with curiosity or an authentic compliment, what would it be?

It's too late to go with the light, I guess. Too late. Yeah, way too late. Well, I would say something along the lines of, are we roleplaying? Vanessa, see, I'm drawing a blank already.

Okay.

Because I was about to say what's been good. I was about to say what's been good, and then you took that away from my—

You both have the same books in your background. Yeah.

Well, I was gonna say books and light.

You can't just yell my name. That's just not going to work. It's not going to work.

This is why we're here.

This is why we're here. Okay, so just take a second. Take a second. Take a second, Nick. Take a second and just think, what would it be like? What's the curious thing? Or a compliment or a me too? Do we have a similarity? Like, what is it? Just think for a second.

Sure.

And then I'm ready.

Cool.

Vanessa, I, uh, I like the books. You might see it's a bit similar to mine.

Oh, we have the same background today, Nick. Look at us.

Same exact background.

Man, those Cues and Captivate books look so good. Hi, how's it going?

Been alive and blessed. How about yourself?

Okay, you did an excellent job. So I just tried to trap you. Okay, so there are 2 people in a conversation, sometimes 3, sometimes 4. You can ask really good questions But you might get asked boring answers, right? You might get asked boring questions, right?

Yeah.

And so this is okay. We cannot control our conversational partner. So there's 2 things to prep for. And I loved your answer. I just wanted to see how you would answer it. One is you came at me with a great similar, like, me too opener, but you also answered me in a positive way, right? So I said, how's it going? Like I was trying to trap you because then most people will say busy but good.

Yeah.

So let me ask you, is that your standard answer always?

Yes.

Okay, so I would challenge that.

Please.

I think I knew it was your standard answer because you answered it like you were on autopilot.

Hmm.

Okay, so you answered it, uh, would you say blessed but good? Blessed— what'd you say?

Alive and blessed.

Right.

So I said, how's it going? Alive and blessed. It sounds a little bit like a recording. Interesting, right? So I got it was positive, but I knew we went right into autopilot. And also, you just trapped me. So if I say, how's it going? And then you say, you know, your answer, and then we're like, what do I say next? Well, that's good. Yay, blessed.

Right. You know, and that's, that's how a lot of my conversations, like, would typically go, right? It would be 30 to 60 seconds. What's going on? Whereabouts in the world are you? The typical questions.

Great, cool.

I know we have some limited time. You're ready to jump in, right? And I noticed the A types absolutely love it, but 90% of people that I talk to, it's more of like an uphill battle, it seems like.

Right. Okay. So here's why, and this is really important, is we are trying to be easy to talk to. If I ask you, how's it going? And you have an autopilot answer that there's no hook for me, that it didn't give me anything. I can't comment on that. You're actually putting the onus on me to come up with the next thing. And so my brain goes, ha ha ha ha ha, and you've just put my amygdala on fire, right? You've just put me into a little bit of social pain, a little bit. And so, and I have to try to snap off autopilot and I'm like, well, why am I even here? And this is when I start to regret the conversation. So in the first 20 seconds, you made me regret being on this phone call, right?

Interesting.

Good job, Nick. Good job about that, Nick. Thanks.

He's like, he will not cry today. He will not cry. So do not trap your customers. Do not put them in conversation traps. You need to take the onus of having the conversation and keeping it flowing. So that means You are asking better questions or having a purposeful opener. If they ask you a boring question, you are ready with an answer that's going to be easy for them. It's either going to be— and here are your choices— it's either going to be interesting to their, oh, uh-huh, wow. Okay, so interesting. Or it's going to give them a very easy hook for them to ask something back. Okay, so you have that choice. And by the way, it shouldn't be scripted.

Yeah.

You feel it.

Totally.

Can you, can you give an example of that? Like the, the second one, give them a, a hook for them to capture something onto?

Yeah. So, um, I, I did it earlier today. So, um, y'all asked, you know, how's, how's it going? Or how's your week?

Yeah.

And I said, oh my gosh, it's been a wild week. I don't know if you saw, but yesterday Diary of a CEO launched. So I took your boring question, I answered honestly, which is like, it's not that all roses right now. It's a little bit crazy at my work. It's a little bit stressful. And then I went one step further and I gave you the why with like kind of something interesting. And then you were like, oh my gosh, well, you know what? My wife and I watched it last night. Easy peasy, right? And then, by the way, that I never script that answer. I always just try to think what is actually happening for me right now? Is there any story or angle? And if you hadn't have seen it, you would have been like, oh wow, were you happy with it? Was it hard? Was that a surprise? You would have had a ton of questions or, oh, my wife and I watched it, right? So You had multiple choices.

Yeah.

What if I don't do anything? Like, what if I just work and I don't really have much else, like, to talk about unless it is like a weekend? I guess, like, when I get stuck in the, you know, just the daily, weekly grind, or if I'm in builder mode, or I know, you know, even other people that are probably listening too, similar, right? But selfishly for me, I guess, what are some other ways that I can get a bit more creative?

Okay, so two things. One is I don't think you have to get fancy. I think that's a lot of like pressure to like I had a diarrhea of a CEO interview. Like that's a that's a big one. Happens to me. Like you could even be like like for example let's say that I didn't have that happen this week. Like that was a surprise week and you said how's the week going? And I said oh my gosh I um just got fresh ginger tea. I don't know if you're like into tea. I'm a I'm a big tea person and I just figured out how to make myself ginger tea and it's I wish you could smell it. I wish you could smell it. I wish you could smell it, right? Yeah. So like, that's what I could have said. Like, that's a very small thing. I like this tea. I asked you, I don't know if you're a tea person. That's a nice way of throwing a question out. And if someone is a tea person, they are going to vibe with you on it. If they're not a tea person, they're going to be like, oh, you know, my wife drinks that. Or, oh yeah, did you grow the ginger root? Or, oh, that sounds great. All of those options are great because you've broken the script. You've given them an opportunity if they want to latch on to tea. If they go, oh, that's nice, they are ready to go. You've done it. You've done the small talk. And then this is the next really important thing to think about. I mentioned at the very beginning, there are kind of 2 ways. So we have to get through that, that small talk. You're going to have people, I would call them high on the competence scale. And we do this on our own sales calls. People who are high on the competence scale, They want to get it done, right? Like they know why we're here. They have the agenda. Great. Ask me that question, but like, let's go. Let's go. So you can be respectful to them by throwing out a very like, you know, simple positive answer. And then if they're like, well, that's good. Okay. You know, let's get into it. Right. And then you can make your transition. So let's do this next. So Nick, what is your transition phrase? And every single salesperson should have a transition phrase. From we've been talking about your weekend, your tea, your week, to we got to get going. What is it?

Totally.

Yeah. Well, it depends on how far off of a tangent we get. Sometimes if we're like 3, 4 minutes in already, I'm like, Echo, like, I can talk about this forever. I know this time's about you. We have a limited amount of time. You ready to just jump in?

I love the confidence.

Yes.

So I love, you know, oh my gosh, I could talk to you about this forever. And I would say it like that. I could talk to you about this forever because it's not about the topic, it's about them. You're enjoying the conversation. So, like, oh my gosh, I could talk to you about this forever. That's a compliment and true. Like, don't say it if it's not true. Now, I wouldn't say, I know we only have a limited amount of time. Why not? Why should we not say this? It probably does.

I mean, it would make it feel inauthentic, right? Or it wouldn't feel personable.

Enough.

Like, they would just feel like they're now another call, basically.

Yeah, it's, it's a little scripty. Evan, do you agree? Like, I don't like that phrase. I don't know if Evan agrees or not.

Oh, sorry, I missed my name in there. You know, I'm trying so hard not to talk because I'm like, yeah, Vanessa, that's so true. I hate that phrase too. That, that teacup is so big. My wife would love your teacup, you guys. Anyway, I'm trying so hard not to say anything and interrupt the flow. But yes, I agree. I do not like that phrase either.

I was like, Evan, are you there? Okay, good. We want to remove every single phrase that could be a script from a telemarketer.

Okay?

So I want you to go through everything you say, you say often, like any part of your script. And don't forget the transitions. I think we— this is actually where we give away most of our charisma is you might have your, your pitch dialed, like the description of the product or service. But the transitions are when you can leak that inauthenticity. If we were on the phone, okay, and you called me as a friend, Nick, and you wanted to talk about planning the holiday party together, you would never, ever say to me, you know, I know we have limited time to talk today.

Sure.

Let's talk about the holiday party.

Yeah.

You would never say that. So how would you talk to your, let's say, a friend of a friend, right? You don't, you're not friends. How do you talk to a friend of a friend? So let's try, try something else. Try a different transition. What would you say to a friend of a friend? We're, we're chatting about ginger tea. Ginger tea is so good. Oh my gosh, Nick, ginger tea is so great, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm more of a green tea type of guy myself. But hey, you know, I just wanted to give you a quick call. I'm about to walk into the gym.

No.

What?

We might need another session, guys.

That was pretty bad. You just ruined all the rapport we had about ginger tea.

So what would be the—

Okay, so, so I— so just psychologically, I could feel you were switching off on me. I could feel that we were leaving rapport and we were getting into sales.

What was it? Was it tonality or like, what was the big thing? I know obviously the question itself, but was there anything else that I did that, you know, I could be more conscious of?

I think the tonality was like getting down to business.

Yeah. Right. Like, I do that.

It makes me feel like I'm being sold to, you know, that this is not about connection. And I know everyone has a different approach to sales, but mine is all about connection, right? Like, I just truly feel that no one's going to buy from you or your company if they don't feel connected to it. And so we want to keep the warmth, like keep the warmth. So the way that I would do it is like, So like, let's say we're okay. So ginger tea. Oh yeah. You know, I'm more of a green tea gal. I'm more of a green tea gal. So this is when you have an opportunity. I like to go into, we have so much to talk about today. I have so much to tell you.

Right?

So, oh my gosh, you know, I wish I could give you some green tea because I have so much I want to talk about today. And I actually prepared some notes for our call. So looking at your intake form, I saw like there isn't even a change in my tone from warm to the intake form. So is there a phrase like that that we could use of there's so much that I want to tell you about, there's so much I want to talk to you about? You know, speaking of that, you know, I loved in your form how you mentioned, you know, is there something that we could tie in where it's the same tone? It's like the same warmth. And we're just talking about how many great things we have coming up in this call.

Yeah, I mean, besides, it would depend on how much research I do on them beforehand, right? But aside from the one that we were talking about earlier where I could talk to you about this all day, I really could.

So you can say, we have so much to talk about today. That same tone. Or you can say, oh my gosh, I could talk to you about green tea all day. I really want to make sure that I— no, I would say, I could talk to you about green tea all day. We also have to make sure that we talk about, and then tell me all about. So like that idea of, we're trying to tie in that idea of we could talk about this fun thing all day. Let's also keep talking about this fun thing. And it's about you. It's about your pain points, about your business. This is probably when I would transition me into talking about my YouTube channel, right? Oh my gosh. I could talk to you about green tea all day. Um, you, you, but you have to tell me about how you got started on YouTube. I mean, this channel is amazing. Like, right? So it's the same tone of voice and it's the same idea of talking about a lot about a thing and then it's talking a lot about the next thing. That's how I would probably transition me.

Got it. And this would fall under like this, the initial 10 words still, right? Like it, cuz I'm just thinking in terms of framework, right? So, you know, like it would be a positive and then it would be more of something that you can have more of like a sparking question to where it says, you have to tell me a little bit more about this. Am I getting that right?

Yep. And now we're probably in the first minute, which is right. So, we've had the first 10 words. They're sparking or gratitude or a mutual moment. They answer, maybe you answer. And then, depending on how much they want to chitchat, you could stay there for 2 or 3 minutes, right? Like, they're highly warm. Or if they're like, let's go, I want to get it done. Okay, it's only a minute, right? And then, the next The next answer is hopefully, and again, I don't know how your sales process works, is ideally getting them talking about why they're with you, right? Like, what is the pain point? What is my YouTube channel? What, you know, on our sales calls, it's like, what brought you to People School? You know, what is your biggest people struggle? Why? What is the communication challenge you're dealing with? So it's a very easy transition of you've just been talking about this thing that hopefully sparked them. Or a mutual moment to then talking about, oh, well, tell me, you know, tell me more about this. Tell me more about this problem.

I love that. Just like outsider looking in, the 2 things I love, one is like, to me, it seems more like it's just maintaining the curiosity throughout where like we're not just rushing to get to talk about the thing, but whether it's a specific transition phrase or word, but also just actually be excited about The thing that we're talking about, which is their YouTube channel, uh, and not losing that and like kind of rushing that because it, then it feels more fake. And Vanessa, so, you know, like Nick with us, the goal is he then, um, continues to sell and do great and then create the process for the next salespeople to follow him. So the typical way is like, okay, there is a sales script that everybody follows and you're word for word going through it. Play with, play with a net underneath, right? Uh, and so everything that he learns from you here today and having better conversations also leads to ripple effect throughout the next people that he, that he works with and hires.

A million percent. And one other thing, and then I'll, I'll let you go as well, Vanessa.

Um, how do you feel about that? I'll let you go, Vanessa. That permission, you know, statement there.

Was that bad too?

Come on. Let me say, and then, and then I'll let, I'll let you go.

I would, I would probably say, and then I have to hear what you think.

There you go.

I have to hear what you think.

Like, curiosity is, is, is our marching song, right? Like, if our, if we have a theme song playing during our entire sales call, it's how can I get back to curiosity? I'm curious about you. I'm curious about your problem. I'm curious about your goals. I'm curious about your future. I'm curious about your, your thoughts on this. So if you can tie everything back to, oh, and I'm, I'm so excited to hear what you have to say about this. Let me just give you some framing. Right. Like that. So you're, you're giving them, you're like, I cannot wait to hear from you. Let me just give you something first.

Got it. Vanessa, I can't wait to hear from you. I gotta give you something first. I gotta get more reps in. Okay, we'll, we'll figure this out.

That was a little sticky. That was a little sticky.

A little sticky. Great.

This is great.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I'm, I'm excited to talk to you more about this. Just one thing to add really quick. Do I even need to add the really quick?

Now I'm overthinking all this.

Yeah, that's good.

That's good.

No, that's good.

That's good.

Just to add something really quick. There's a big misnomer out there about people that get into sales. And there's a lot of, the big common thing now is like, don't even worry about rapport. Just skip rapport completely. Just get to the point because you're gonna sound like every other salesperson. And I think what's been going on, and I think I've been programmed this way now from all the times I've heard this, that because of me skipping it, or at least not doing it the right way, I'm losing a lot more deals on the table from what it sounds like. Right. And I'm sure other people would be the exact same way too. So, um, this is, it's refreshing to say the least. And I'm, I'm really excited that we took this because now, you know, we can really start implementing a lot more of these things, talk better, build bigger connections. Right. And not be seen as just, you know, another salesperson.

I also think, um, uh, this doesn't have to take long.

Right.

Like, I actually don't want it to take long, right? Some of this can happen in 30 seconds, right? So I think there's also a misnomer that warmth is slow, it's ineffective. And yeah, if you're doing it badly, yeah, it's really bad. If you're doing it inauthentically, yeah. So if you cannot, if you cannot harness warmth authentically, skip it. Truly, if you cannot do it real, don't do it, right? So my hope is that there actually is something you're actually curious about with the person you're talking to, that you're harnessing authentic warmth. Because that, that, that is real. Fake warmth? No, it's not worth doing. You're, you're better off skipping it. So that's something to think about. Also, there are a lot of ways that you can do this tailored to you so you don't sound like every other salesperson, right? So I think like, you know, in the book I have all kinds of very unique openers and you're gonna find one that works. So like, you know, I know someone, their opener is, how's the empire? And like, it so works for her because she's in New York, she's with people who are, Everyone, everyone in New York thinks they're doing big things, right? So if you're talking to entrepreneurs, you know, you're like, how's the empire? How's the YouTube empire? That could be an opener too, right? Like that could get you right into it. If you're like, tell me every— oh, hi, it's so nice to meet you. I'm so grateful for this call. Tell me everything about your YouTube empire. I've just been so like waiting to dive in. Like that could be your opener. That is still warm, but it's actually getting you closer to the content. I'm okay with that too.

Interesting. Yeah.

Where do you leave room, or, uh, this is more selfish question, for the, the je ne sais quoi, the love, the passion, the weird, the random, the thing that comes up in mind? Like when you, when you told me about Conversation, uh, you sent me an email, I forget how long ago, when you're in the process, and you asked me like a couple questions. I'm talking to my friends, I forget what the email said. I'm like, oh my God, I'm so excited about this. I'm gonna make this video and explain all this. Like I went and I don't know how long that video was and tried to give as detailed answers as possible and all. And that wasn't like some strategy or some hook or some, whether you used it or not or whatever. I just like, I loved the idea of the book and I wanted to just try to give value. And so I went off and made this like long email and video. And I think that's how I've won a lot, not on necessarily like specific words or strategies, but just leaning into like love, passion, curiosity, excitement, like genuinely wanting this person Yes. How is that? Does that fit like on top of the frameworks, or how do you, how do you factor all those in?

I think it is the foundation for everything we're talking about, but it's very hard to manufacture. So if you have, like, you authentically were very curious about the topic of my book and we have a connection, my goodness, like, that's, that's like a super foundation, but not everyone has it. So if you have that, oh my gosh, like, Lean on that most of all. But in a lot of sales situations, there isn't that authentic foundation. And so you actually have to build it through conversation. And by the way, you gave me a tip, so many tips in that framework, and I was able to pull out some. Like, so the tip that I share from Evan in the book is in my introvert chapter because I said, you know, Evan, you're, you know, you're introverted and I'm an ambivert. So my, one of my biggest worries while writing the book was that I would, I would not write for introverts. And I really want to give tips that are conversation safe for introverts because so many Communication books out there are written by extroverts. It's not the same. So Evan was like my backstop of like, okay, you're an introvert, how do I respect you? And so in the introvert chapter, I have your tip, which is to be an extrovert magnet, which is to, you know, you wear golden shoes. I think you have other extrovert magnets that you've used, right, in the past?

You said that way better than I did. I don't think I said extrovert magnet, but I like that.

Oh, I created the word. I created the word. It's great. I added the framework on top of your story. Yes. So, um, by the way, um, you can do that, you can do that in your background too, right? Like, so I think like people, a sales technique you can use is to be easier to talk to is wear interesting things, have interesting things in your background. So the room for the quirky and weird is you can have, um, just like you mentioned, like you had gold shoes. That's a little quirky and weird. It's an easy thing for people to bring up to you. So you can have that on your desk, in your background, um, in your profile picture. You can have that for others as a way for them to bring up something. But also, you have room for that with unique things in your sales pitch. Like, could you screen share right then, live? You know, could you demo for them right there? Could you, like, for example, in our sales calls, if someone asks a very specific question, like, oh, you know, in People School, do you talk about assertiveness? Our sales folks are empowered to literally open up People School and be like, let's look, let's look together. We search it. We're like, oh, look, there's a video number 8 on how to be assertive. And look, it looks like it's 45 minutes long. We have a workbook and a framework. So yes, it's right there waiting for you.

Right?

Or like we have a little AI practice tool. And so when someone's like, you know, I'm worried I won't be able to practice, they'll say, hey, let's do it live together. I'll show you how I do it. So like room to go off script with unique options, I also think is really great if you can do it.

Very cool. There's a, there's a lot to take in here. I'm excited.

Um, what's his homework? What does Nick need to do? He's like, he's got all this energy.

I have so many notes here.

Yes. Okay.

What's your, what's your favorite note, Nick, that you wrote down?

Favorite note?

What's your favorite? One line.

Yeah. The first 20 seconds matter the most. Be as warm as you possibly can, because I am a warm person. I think I've just been hiding it a lot and I've been More so masking it.

Yeah.

Because it's just been the norm. So, you know, kind of bringing that old self back because now I have something also to look forward to, like on every single new call, right? Versus it being a bit more mundane, a bit more boring. And then also like, and you said one thing, so I'm gonna give you 18 more. But the very last thing is like, you, you talked about this as well, Vanessa, about dread. You know, if you dread something, you're in trouble, right? And it's like sometimes when we get caught up, we have 9, 10 calls on our calendar a day, we start to dread a little bit. And it's because we don't have anything to look forward to. So now especially, you know, I can start going in again and going back to that old version of me, newer version, but more wise that it likes the connection. It likes being more warm with people because this used to be, I mean, it's a big thing for me outside of, you know, sales conversations. And I wanna chat with like another 5 minutes if we can, just about generalized networking to, you know, have these same types of conversations too. But I would say that, that would be the biggest thing.

I also would just encourage, like, if you have 10 calls in a row, you could set up little experiments for yourself. Like, think of every call like an experiment. So let's take even the ginger tea clip, and let's say that you're gonna— it's a Thursday, you have— you see you have 10 calls coming up, and you're like, okay, it's a green tea day. You have a really cool mug, or like a unique mug, right? Like mine has my initials on it. You have a unique mug, You have your green tea out and you're gonna do a green tea experiment to see, does this spark conversations or not? And you know that for every call coming up, you're gonna talk about how much you like this green tea and see what happens. And that way you're doing a real test on this. Maybe there's different ways to ask it or different ways to say it. Maybe some people love it, maybe some people hate it, but then there's no failing. There's no failing. And dread comes from potential failure. It comes from boring. It comes from no purpose. But if you know that you're going to try this opener and see how it goes and see if you can really connect with someone, see if you can genuinely bring in warmth and see if it works, there's no failing. It's just learning.

Yeah. And it becomes more fun too, right? Because that's where flow comes from.

Yes. Let's talk about generalized networking. So I like networking now. I did not like it before.

Yeah, I hate it.

I used to hate it. Now I don't. I had kind of a moment where this all changed for me, where thank goodness it was early on in my career. So earlier in my career, I was— I couldn't afford the ticket to this conference. There was a conference I really, really wanted to go to, but it was a very expensive ticket and I had to fly to the city and stay in the city and I just didn't have money for it. So what I did was I flew to the city and I stayed in a like very cheap hotel by the airport. And on the morning of the conference, There was a Starbucks in the conference center you could go to without a ticket. And so I went to the Starbucks and I just got in line all day long. Like, as people with badges were getting in line, I would just get in line with them and I would be like, oh, how's the conference going? And they would say, yes, good, bad, not. And I'd say, is there anything you've really like learned from the speakers? You know, who's been your favorite speaker? What was your biggest takeaway? And they were starting to teach me. And by the way, these Starbucks lines were so long. So like, I could have a really good, like, and then we would wait for their drinks together and I would keep ordering. You know, I didn't want to like sit there for free. So I would order like little small— I had so much coffee that day, you know, or a little tea, a little cake pop, whatever.

Yeah.

And I would say to them in line, you know, I couldn't afford the conference ticket, so I'm hanging out here at Starbucks and, you know, anything you want to share or teach me, I would, I would love to know. And one time I got to stand next to a speaker. And I asked them about their talk and they gave me their card. And I made so many connections at that conference and I learned so much from just standing in line. And that changed my approach to networking where I realized it has to be super targeted. Like I had a very specific intention networking at that Starbucks, which was to learn as much as I possibly could. not get as many cards as I could. I think that like the approach to networking of like quantity, quantity, quantity, you know, like, you know, get clients and connect on LinkedIn. Like that's just, it just doesn't work that way. But like, I wanted to learn as much as possible.

Sure.

That was really helpful. It drove my conversations. And also my opener was extremely specific, right? Like, are you liking the conference? Still like casual. And people said yes and no. We both had both. And then being really honest and vulnerable about why I was there really, really helped. Like, people understood what I meant and they opened up even more. So like being vulnerable and networking also. And I think we think that we have to have this like facade of, you know, I'm killing it and my business is huge. Like even like talking about YouTube, like I don't understand what's happening on my YouTube channel. Like I am extremely frustrated. by it. And on the outside, you would think that my YouTube channel is killing it. But actually, like, internally, I'm like, YouTube started my business and I've kind of abandoned it because I don't understand it. That's a very vulnerable thing for a creator to say, you know? But it's true. Like, it's true. And I'm happy to say it publicly because I really don't understand what's going on with it. So I think, like, we have to be more vulnerable safely. We have to have super intention and not just meeting more people. And our openers and our questions have to be targeted. Like, I didn't ask a single person, where are you from? I didn't ask a single person, are you married? Do you have kids? I didn't ask a single person, what do you do? That, that's not— I didn't even go there. And so I think like putting yourself in situations where you can actually skip those questions is really key.

So YouTube, you and I will connect after book launch and we'll figure that out. Vanessa, we'll get that. People need Vanessa Van Edwards in their lives. So we'll, we'll, we'll make that happen. Um, there's a little bit of gap between us recording this and the book actually coming out. Conversations linked up below in the description. Uh, I wanna give Nick some homework that maybe we tap on the end of this, so then he has to go and do something and then he reports back with his, uh, results. So what, what between now and book launch day, what does he need to go and work on that would make you proud if he does it?

One, I want you to do a, uh, a 1-day test on a new opener. So whether that's green tea or a specific thing in your day, and I want you to test the same opener and the same question all day. So whether that's 5 calls or 10 calls, I want you to see if it changes over the course of the day, like what your learnings change and like test it. So you're doing an experiment on that opener and/or question. And then second, I want you to pick a quote unquote networking event that has like very targeted Learning. So whatever, if it's a wine thing or a cooking class or an industry event, you cannot open with, what do you do? No, no, you cannot say, what do you do? You cannot. You cannot ask, where are you from? Been married? Got kids? Cannot. You have to come up with another opener that is targeted to that specific group. Tell me how it goes.

Last 30-second question, because I'm curious here. Do you have a formula that you follow when it comes to figuring out what would be a good contextual question to ask?

Anything I can see. Anything I can see. And actually, that's based on research. Research finds that when we have shared context, like when both people are looking at the same thing, it syncs up brainwaves faster. So like saying, oh, how do you like that wine? We're both looking at that wine. We're thinking of wine. We're thinking of drinking the wine. It syncs up our brains way faster than what do you do, where are you from? And so contextually, I'm always like, what can we both see? Like even like my ring light, you know, even us all talking. talking about that, our brainwaves are thinking up, thinking about the Renaissance. Like, when I say like, oh, the Renaissance halo, our brains sort of like sync up to this very specific neurological cue. And then when I talk about asking AI, our brains sync up thinking about asking AI that. And so all of a sudden we're on the same wavelength.

Very cool.

By the way, Nick, I would ask you, is your plant real? Is that tree real?

No, not at all.

Don't be fake, Nick. Don't be fake. Okay? You gotta get rid of the plant.

I have a real one. And then I would talk about, and then I would talk about the best real plants to have on your desk. That would be, that would be one opener I've used before and I love it.

Yeah.

Well, I gotta ask you some more advice on real plants, so we definitely gotta take it there.

But I know, Vanessa, you are awesome.

This is awesome.

This is great. I was expecting it to be fun. This is even more fun than expected. This is great.

It was fun. I, I did okay with coaching.

You did great. You did great. Yeah. Apart from your boring question, Nick, you know, you got, it was great. I love this. Fantastic. Uh, everybody, the book is called Conversation. Uh, we'll link it up down in the description below. Go support this amazing human being and go follow her on YouTube as well. Give her some more love there too.

YouTube.

Appreciate you. Thank you so much and best of luck with the launch.

Thank you so much, guys.

Bye-bye, everyone.

What's up, you guys?

So it's been 2 weeks since Vanessa and I had our last convo. I spent the last 2 weeks applying everything that you told me, Vanessa, and right after actually you and I got off, I closed 2 deals from everything we covered. I also updated my bookshelf to add some extra conversation starters in there, like you say, to be an extrovert magnet, right? My most successful green tea experiment that I had was actually the day that my mouse died and I had to charge it. And I always told people, it's one of those days when they asked me how I was doing, it's like I had a turtle flipped upside of its shell. A big unlock, I would say, for me with everything that we just spoke about was the reason that I wasn't able to have more conversation starters and start from level 1 more effectively was because I lost sight of how interesting people really are. And there's always something new that somebody can share with you. There's 8 billion people in the world, 8 billion different stories. And I haven't even scratched the surface of understanding any of them. So it gave me some, some really good insight as far as how to approach other conversations, which is just be curious, right? So I want to thank you again, you know, for your time. I mean, just to pour into an absolute stranger you just met and give me a— gave me an entirely new perspective that'll change how I communicate forever. So I'm excited for the book launch.

I wish you the absolute best.

Thank you.

Best. I'm excited to see you again in the future.

Believe. To learn how one of our clients went from 20,000 views to 4.5 million, check the video right there next to me. I think you'll love it. Continue to believe, and I'll see you there. Holly is in charge of Maury Povich's new YouTube channel, On Par with Maury Povich.

I've been working with Maury for, I'd say, about 25 years. Maury, before starting the talk show and becoming a host,