Tired But Wired? Why You’re Exhausted But Can’t Shut Your Brain Off After 50

Here are the questions we answer in this episode. Why do you have brain fog? What do you do about it if you have brain fog? You know, and it happens uniquely to all women. Sometimes it's just, I can't find my words, or it's, I can't find the keys to the car. I can't, can't find my phone. And of course, often it is in your hand. Just saying, don't know how I know that, but this is an important episode and it's short for a reason. What I wanted to do is get something in your hands. At the end of this, you're going to get an invitation to a 28-day free trial. If you are struggling with this, just like getting centered, finding your words, getting rid of the brain fog so that you have the cognitive function and you know this is important to you no matter who you are, but for Particularly if, like me, you run a business, you don't have time for this, right? And the very thing we say to ourselves when we're in that mode is, I don't have time for this, is we create a little bit more stress and tension, which probably does not help. Can you agree? So if that's true for you, I encourage you to drop into this, and I want you to realize this is probably going to leave you hungry for more, and I've left it short on purpose. Number one, we had a little technical difficulty actually getting started. So total transparency here. But number two, we were also wanting to put this in your hands. And it was my number one goal. We could have gone longer, we will go longer. And I definitely want to have him back. And we are going to unpack some additional content when we invite him back. But I want you at the end of this to say, okay, this resonated with me. And this short episode will get you started. My hope is that we drop another episode at a point not too far in the distance, while you may still be going on this 28-day journey or have just finished it, and you can report back to us and say, "Hey, here's what has happened for me. Here was my experience," and I'm gonna drop a little. Hint here. There is also an upcoming clinical trial that you, if you're in perimenopause, or girlfriends', sisters', daughters who may be in perimenopause, could participate in if you qualify. And we're gonna let you know how to do that. And I think all of us are like here for yes, please. Let's have a little bit more research that. Features subjects just like us. And it's been challenging. Some of the research is fantastic on, okay, maybe we're not that different than men when it comes to exercise, but when it comes to brain health, we don't know a lot. And so if you're going through perimenopause and you're experiencing potentially some of the biggest changes and swings that you've ever experienced before, this is for you. Let's dive in. You're in perimenopause, menopause, or postmenopause, and you're not slowing down. You're just getting started. But the old rules don't apply anymore. The workouts that worked before, they're working against you now. The advice you've been given, incomplete at best. I'm Debra Atkinson, and I'm the founder of Flipping 50, the pioneer in fitness for women in midlife. For more than 40 years, I've been in the trenches with women just like you, and for the last 12, Right here on this podcast and, and the founder of Flipping 50: The Stronger Way app and membership. Welcome to Flipping 50: The Stronger Way, where science meets strength, where you'll find the tools, research, and real talk to build the body and the life you want in your second half. Each week, you'll get evidence-based exercise and nutrition strategies, conversations with leading experts, and honest answers to the questions your doctor didn't get. answers to in medical school and doesn't have time to answer in an appointment. This is your show. Let's get stronger. Ashok, thanks so much for being here.

Yeah, super excited for our conversation. So thanks for the invitation.

Of course. Well, every woman here deals with fatigue sometimes, with brain fog fatigue sometimes, and not finding the words, let alone the keys. At least we don't have to worry about where we left the children anymore. But this is an issue we all deal with, and you get it. You've dealt with chronic fatigue. So I'd love for you to share your story.

Yeah, absolutely. So my story started in the late '90s. So I was studying as an undergrad at Cambridge, and I was burning the candle at both ends. So I was probably partying a little too hard and working and getting stressed by the coursework as well. And I got some kind of virus, and I didn't know what cause the virus. I just thought it's perfectly, perfectly normal. And I didn't seem to recover from the virus. And I just got more and more fatigued, more and more exhausted, brain fog, difficulty thinking, physical ailments, and tightness in the muscles, to the point at which, you know, I almost couldn't get to the bathroom, you know, was almost bedbound, sometimes housebound. And it was like a brick wall in front of a young man. And in my worst moments, I was almost suicidal thinking, what is going on? Like, no doctor has an explanation. They don't understand. And I made a contract with the universe and I said, if I can just get myself 30% better, 50% well, I will dedicate the rest of my life to helping others with these unexplained conditions because I met many others who were going through so much suffering.

Mm-hmm.

And that was the background to my story and how I got chronic fatigue. And then I started researching brain neurology, physiology, and I came up with a hypothesis as to what I believe caused chronic fatigue at the time. And in an ad hoc way, I retrained my brain using the principles of neuroplasticity, got myself 100% well, and then I started treating others in my clinic in the 2000s for various fatigue-related conditions and inflammatory conditions. So that's been my 20, 25-year journey to be here.

So, inquiring minds wanna know what percent of your patients or clients are women in midlife and beyond?

I would say that 90 to 95% of our clientele are, are women.

You're welcome.

Yes.

You're welcome. Okay.

Yes.

So, so for this, they, I, I think we've heard this term so much, but I should say it out loud, wired but tired. Tired but wired. I mean, it is this brutal vicious cycle. You know, you're going through your day wanting to go to bed, you go to bed and you can't quite turn off the brain is, you know, the challenge so much of the time. What does a woman who is in that spiral or cycle, what could be going on with her? Mm-hmm. More than anything, what are the answers to that?

Of course. So several big questions there. Let's, uh, let's see what we can— how we can dive in here. So I think the, the starting point here is, well, obviously we know that as a woman reaches the, the perimenopause phase of life, there becomes more variability in the reproductive hormones. Um, and, uh, and I, and I do hope I'm not mansplaining here, so apologies to all the women, uh, in advance. You know, it's a very funny story. I was in Australia once and, um, I was talking about the reproductive cycle and the menstruation cycle with a group of women. And I suddenly looked around at the group of women and said, I do apologize if I sound like I'm mansplaining. All right?

To

which one woman replied, what's mansplaining? So then I had to mansplain mansplaining to her.

So just for listeners in the back, do you want to explain that to her too?

Oh gosh, no, I'd definitely get into trouble. I will leave that to women to look up the definition of mansplaining. But essentially, we know there's more variability in those hormonal levels. And then of course, in menopause, there's overall a lower level of those hormones. And we also know that those hormones have a neuroprotective effect. Now, of course, we don't want to go so far as to say it's all the hormones. Of course it's not, but it has an influence and the variability can make an influence as well. And so that means that the stress system in the brain, specifically certain brain structures called the amygdala, the insula, which is what we study, they may be more prone to reactions or what we call predictive processing. That as we get older, the brain starts anticipating threats in places that perhaps it wouldn't anticipate it before. So as an example, those could be physical threats. So the brain may detect certain signals in the body or symptoms in the body And may start anticipating that that's reflection of a stronger illness or something that's more serious or something that we investigate. So I'm sure perhaps our listeners can can relate to that. There can be predictive processing around anticipation of emotional responses to the people around us, or threats from our environment, threats from society in general. So what then can then happen is, and I will come back to the word predictive processing in a moment, but essentially our brains. Rather than reacting to situations, they are predicting situations.

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Essentially, we normally think that, okay, stress is our reaction to people and situations and things. But actually, our brain comes with a lens, and that lens is based on our past experiences. And it says, in my current situation, what is the level of threat? Yeah? And how does it relate to my previous experiences of threat? And if there's less neuromodulation from the reproductive hormones, the brain can then magnify predictive processing and start anticipating threat more and more in our environment. which then stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, which then starts using up more energy than it may have done in previous decades. And that's the new piece of kind of knowledge on neurology I want to share with everyone today, that this is becoming more and more popular in the literature and could be a pathway that explains more of these types of symptoms.

Wow. Wow. So I have heard other Colleagues of mine, primarily physicians, when they're describing talking to new patients about, you know, HRT and how that might help them, they describe that they, you know, in a regular cycle want to kill their husband, you know, and, you know, they ask if that's every day or just certain days of the month to decipher. Is there, right? Is this a hormone thing or something else? But completely understand. I want to ask too, though, you say brain retraining. How is, how is that different than, than meditation, than positive thinking or affirmations? What exactly is brain retraining?

Yeah, it's a great question because we think that we might be retraining our brain when we are engaging in nervous system regulation. Okay? So there are crossovers. So many of us now are looking at mindfulness, we're looking at breathing and meditation to calm the mind. And all of those are brilliant practices, and we certainly support those and we present those in our program. But what those are doing is reducing the overall stimulation of the brain.

Mm-hmm.

The purpose of that is then the second step, which is then insights into what our brain is reacting to in the first place, do we see? So we might be reacting to people, situations, sensations in our body. We can calm our brains down, but that doesn't necessarily stop the reason why our brains are reacting and responding in the first place.

Mm-hmm.

And therefore, certainly in the East, these practices were a gateway to self-awareness and insights. So the second stage of this is Now that I'm calmer, let me reflect on what are those anticipatory patterns that I have, right? So as an example that I think people can relate to, we sometimes call them in the UK, I think, the Sunday evening wobblies, where it's getting to Sunday evening, you know, you're going to get back to work on Monday, and the anxiety starts coming up, you start worrying about the day tomorrow, which then spoils your Sunday. It's totally unnecessary. But often as we get older, that anticipation becomes stronger. So that's an example of that predictive process and the brain now getting anxious before the situation has even occurred. So what I'm encouraging people to do is say, okay, let's calm the brain. But secondly, let's start having these insights into our brain's search for safety and where it might be over-magnifying the threats that we face. And that could be a core contributor to the levels of anxiety that we're experiencing. Yeah. Fatigue and brain fog that we may be experiencing.

Amazing. Okay. So I love that. And that's such a great example. So we use alliteration over here. We call it the Sunday Scaries, but I totally get it. I, this is really interesting and I don't wanna go too far down this rabbit hole, but you mentioned as we get older, we may amplify that more. I'm wondering, is there something to our younger generation, our 30-somethings, seem to be actually having even more of that.

Right. So this used to be something we, you know, our younger brain used to have more of a neuroprotective effect. And therefore, as we get older, these threat systems magnify. That is changing now. So we do a lot of work with young people and people in their, you know, their 20s, their 30s. They are experiencing heightened anxiety far higher than our generations. And often this is because of the, There's various factors, and that's a whole other podcast I'm sure I'd love to do with you. But essentially, they're also experiencing heightened anxiety, but for different reasons, I believe.

Yeah.

And of course, that's to do with constant comparison on social media, so never allowing the nervous system to relax, their usage of screens, the fact that they are entering a world where there's more geopolitical— well, not necessarily more geopolitical uncertainty, but certainly perhaps more financial uncertainty about whether they can afford a home, then the impact of AI and their finances. And so I think there's a whole bunch of different things. And also, at the core of it, I believe that those younger generations were shielded from adversity as they were growing up more compared to the older generations. So they didn't necessarily learn as many neuroprotective effects of having to take risks having to be just thrown out for the day out of the house and go and play and figure stuff out and then whatever, where it's like everything now is helicopter parenting. How are you doing? How are you feeling? So there is something around that kind of ability to handle adversity that we are seeing less of that, I suppose, buffer in the younger generations.

Interesting. Really interesting. So they didn't drink out of rusty hoses, ride their bikes around town. Get in trouble without reporting it. Yes. Oh, that's it. Okay. They haven't really lived. That's the problem.

Okay.

What's the research on your program, on the Gupta program? What does it show so far and how this is—is it a complement? Is it a first step before trying medical care? Where does it?

We always encourage people to take medical care first and primarily because, of course, fatigue, exhaustion, brain fog, those symptoms can be mimicked by far more serious conditions. So we always get everything checked out first. And if then the doctor gets to the stage where they said, there's nothing more that we can do for you, at that point we then say, actually, this is a combination of the great work that you do in terms of the lifestyle, the exercise, the sleep, and the nutrients that we're getting. So that's a big contributing factor. But then secondly, also the nervous system regulation and then the brain retraining. It's the brain's reactivity. And so what we see in our clinical environments is that we treat obviously a lot of women in their 40s, 50s, and 60s with chronic health conditions. So not only do we look at general fatigue and burnout anxiety, but also when it becomes a more serious condition like long COVID or fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue. And where everyone— anyone is along that scale, the research seems to show that when people engage in our program for, let's say, a minimum of 3 months, we seem to see big reductions in anxiety, big reductions in depression. So almost a halving of anxiety, a halving of depression in several randomized controlled trials that we've performed. And we also did a study on older women and we found We had a similar response in terms of anxiety and depression and general symptoms, but also a 16% improvement in cognitive ability and cognitive function, which was an amazing result. So I think that our studies are showing the neuroprotective effect of engaging in brain retraining that enables us to handle our environment better. And so because we have less of a neuroprotective effect from reproductive hormones,

Mm-hmm.

it's even more important as we get older that we start that journey of self-awareness. And, you know, in the East, it's very interesting. There is this tradition that once you reach your 50s and 60s, there's a stage of life called sannyas. It's a Sanskrit word. And it's deliberately telling us that that is the age for which we go deeper into meditation, deeper into self-awareness, deeper into understanding ourselves. And that coincides with, you know, the menopause. So what's really interesting in the East is that actually, The period of menopause coincides with what is called sannyas, or an ancient Sanskrit word meaning this idea of self-reflection, insight, getting away from our worldly responsibilities and going on an inward journey, letting go of our material world. And so that's interesting because I think that that's something that as we get older, because we've got a lower neuroprotective effect, of these hormones, it's even more important that we start understanding ourselves, our minds, and know thyself. And it's just interesting that coincides with the stage of life in the kind of ancient East. And so I would encourage us to see this time as an opportunity. Yes, there will be symptoms that come up such as the brain fog, the fatigue, the difficulty sleeping, and it's recognizing the nervous system regulation the opportunity to calm our nervous system, and then the reflection, the insight, the, dare I say it, the spiritual journey that then comes from that is really powerful. And perhaps these symptoms give us a doorway and an opening to force us along this path.

So much goodness here. And I think so much that helps a woman make sense of why am I feeling this way? all of a sudden when this has not necessarily been my, my description. This isn't my MO or my personality. And I think the best way to understand it is to try it. And you have a very unique way for people to get involved and to try it. Tell us about it.

Yes, that's, that's right. Yes. So we have a 28-day free trial in terms of our Gupta program. And within that program, they're able to look at various meditations, breathing exercises, and begin that journey of brain retraining. And I think it's also helping us understand the explanation. When we have explanations such as we've shared here, that simply that insight and that aha, right, that helps me understand more about what I'm feeling, then reduces our resistance to what is going on and helps us embrace it and work through it, knowing that we are the master of our destinies when it comes to these types of symptoms. There are things that we can do. So I encourage people to, yeah, take our 28-day free trial, experiment with some of these techniques. There's a lot of free material and content there, and see how it can improve.

So to a woman who's reluctant to do anything for 28 days, how much time every day does this take her?

We say that for this investment in our health, we recommend a minimum of 10 to 20 minutes a day.

Okay.

And of course, I think that's manageable. Hopefully, we can have that. And of course, our health is the most important thing. If we don't have our health, we know what happens, right? Nothing else works. So if we prioritize our health with that investment of time, we will see it pay back fivefold in terms of ourselves being more efficient during the day, having more energy, having more clarity of mind.

Awesome. And is there anyone who should not, anybody who's not a good candidate

Well, I think it's— if somebody has some new symptoms or some very serious symptoms, they should always go and have those checked out physically. I haven't come across anyone yet that isn't a good candidate for our work. And I think what there is, is sometimes if people come to this type of work, but they've got maybe a very serious background of trauma, and they haven't necessarily looked at that, of course, when you first breathe or meditate, It can be that more anxiety can sometimes come up because that cauldron of emotions that has been suppressed suddenly starts can start coming up. But in the majority of cases, I would say that we start with the nervous system regulation. We've given lots of great exercises on that front, and then we move to the brain retraining to start retraining these adaptive responses or defensive responses. This is something that I think could benefit everyone in society.

Amazing. Amazing. And the description that you gave was just so crisp. And I think everybody is looking for that, not just to calm down any— the understanding of this goes so much further. It is the step beyond meditation. I think that a lot of us are missing. We're doing that part. But there's a reason why we need to keep coming back to meditation over and over because we keep needing to bring it back down again. Thank you so much. Can you leave us with a link and where can listeners go to the 28-day trial? Where can they follow you?

Absolutely. So they can go to our website, which is guptaprogram.com. So guptaprogram.com, Gupta Program. Or they can go to App Store or Play Store and download our free app. Once again, Gupta Program, they can just type in and they can start looking at these concepts straight away.

Amazing. Thank you.

And we also just want to add that if people choose to then upgrade to the main program, then we have a special discount code for your listeners. It's 10% off our full program using DEBRA10, and they can then upgrade with that discount as well.

Excellent. And I already know we need to have you back. We need to go a little deeper into that conversation for our sons, daughters, daughters-in-law. We need We need to know how to help them as they have different challenges than we did.

Absolutely. And I think there's this wisdom that actually older women can instill, obviously, on their children, but in a slightly different way with the science behind this and what our kids can actually do to offset the anxiety that they're experiencing. Very important conversation.

Absolutely. Can't wait to have you back. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Shared on Flipping 50: The Stronger Way is for educational and informational purposes only, and not intended as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always consult your physician or qualified healthcare provider before beginning any exercise program, making changes to your diet, or adjusting any medications or supplements. Individual results may vary. Deborah Atkinson and Flipping 50 are not responsible for any injury or adverse outcomes resulting from information presented on this podcast.