698: Meditation, Embodiment, and Softening the Walls with Cory Muscara

I had a beautiful shift in my understanding of meditation as a result of a conversation I had with Cory Muskara. He is the host of Practicing Human, a very popular podcast. And the revelation is, is this. I have had a push, pull, want it, hate it relationship with meditation my whole life. Because every time I've sat down to do it, I feel like I have to pull myself in. I have to bring myself to some point where it's like forcing a bunch of, well, fireflies back into a jar and they don't want to be there. So I want you to hear Corey's take on it, about allowing an expansiveness and releasing and it happens toward the end, so you're going to have to listen. But we get there. It's mind blowing. So with that, let's get started. Flow Dreaming still kind of woo Woo is just what it sounds like. An escape into the world of woo. Also a ride into you and how to feel happier, wiser and more self aware in every way. It's your ultimate journey into personal growth and inner power. We'll explore ideas like how your energy self influences the kinds of opportunities you encounter, or how your personal growth can drive your business growth, or even how that feeling of being stuck is really always coming from something else. We just have to figure out what. That's right. We're a dash of woo woo. A sprinkle of self care, a heap of problem solving and pattern busting, and a giant cup of encouragement. We're going to relight so much passion, purpose, self love and confidence in you that you practically stagger. I'm Summer McStravik, your host and welcome to Flow Dreaming. Still kinda woo Woo. Today I have with me Corey Muscara. As I just mentioned, he is the host of the Practicing Human podcast. He is also a former monk and the bestselling author of the book Stop Missing youg Life. Interestingly, this fella is still in his 20s, if you can believe it. Unbelievable, the wisdom that is just effervescing off of him. So with that, let's welcome our guest, Cory Muscara. Hey Corey, welcome to the show today. Really glad you're here.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Yeah. I reached out to you because one, whenever I listen to your podcast, your voice is so incredibly soothing. It just quiets me immediately. I'm sure everyone tells you that.

Thank you. Yeah, it's. I don't know where I never knew I had a voice that people that would be good for meditation. Until I started leading meditations, I never actually liked my voice. But I'm glad it's serving a purpose there.

Well, it certainly is. And just for anyone listening, your podcast is practicing human. So I'm starting with an interview quote, actually, that you did for the 10% happier podcast. You said in it, I got fascinated with happiness. Well, being. I could see that up until that point, the exploration of it was in manipulating the external world. I got very interested in what is the possibility of cultivating a contentment that did not derive from external factors.

Yeah, yeah, you could say that was the origin story for my spiritual and personal growth path that started around age 21. I remember having that insight that it preceded me doing an extended retreat practice in a monastery in Burma. And where I was just. I was coming out of college and I was seeing everyone trying to get the prized jobs and the high salaries and all of which was important. There were a lot of things that were important, but I was also seeing friends and peers. Not peers, but friends and people I Knew who were 10 years, 20 years, 30 years older, who had done all of those things and were not necessarily happy. And I was seeing also myself that there were a lot of moments where if I had reflected back a year ago or three years ago or five years ago, like where I was that, oh, I would be happy if I got there, and then I was. But I didn't feel much different. And I still was navigating a lot of stuff it just brought into question, like, what actually is sustainable happiness and fulfillment. And that my approach up until that point was primarily by trying to, like, arrange the world around me in a way that fit the blueprint of what my mind thought it needed.

And.

And I do think the door into the spiritual inquiry, you could just say the existential inquiry of what does it mean to be human? And what does fulfillment actually look like? It starts with some level of disillusionment with our usual patterns of trying to get that happiness. And usually that involves recognizing that I did all the things I was supposed to do, been working really hard at it, and. And yet I still don't feel the thing that I thought this was supposed to give me. And so that became the springboard into quite a journey.

Yeah, that's where we overlap a lot. That caught my attention. Yeah, this recognition that we're always trying to manipulate the external world to give us the feelings that we want to have inside of us instead of reversing that equation and manipulating, quote, quote, our internal world instead.

Yeah.

Well, I guess that brings me to the next idea. Here you talk about the need for safety A lot. And I think when we try to manipulate that external world, what we're really running toward is I need to feel safe. And for me, it's always been a moving horizon. If I just get this XYZ like thing, I'll finally feel okay. So we keep going ever and ever toward those things that just keep never quite reaching that point. But what's your take on safety and the need for it?

Yeah, well, safety is obviously a complicated word, especially culturally these days with the advent of things like safe spaces and the idea of needing to create safety as like a weaponization against being able to have certain conversations. And it's very nuanced territory. I don't have, like a definitive stance on that, what I will say and where I. How I use it in my teachings. And the thing I've recognized is that when you are working with. When you're doing certain healing work and you're working with parts of yourself that have been cast in the shadows of shame and fear and, you know, not good enough for those parts to emerge, to be able to be worked on, like, seen, explored, held, integrated, brought back into the. The wholeness of you. It's like orienting to a turtle who's like, peeping its head out of its shell. And like the. The. Any sort of quick movements or even like subtle movements is going to retreat back into the safety there. And so when I'm doing work with people on retreats or even, like, if we look at just someone establishing a meditation practice for themselves, I am looking at and encouraging someone to create for themselves. What does an internal and potentially external environment of safety look like? And that's where, like, if you are going to take the journey of trying to understand your mind or your emotions or your inner world, then, yeah, let's look at like, what would a ritual around that be? And where would you do that in your home? And, you know, you wouldn't necessarily do it on the sidewalk in New York City. There'd be a lot of activation and stimuli and, you know, you'd be fear. There'd be cars coming or bikes. Right. So some unsafety there. So where's the nervous system feel like it can settle and it can soften its guard and it can therefore then open to aspects of yourself that are just so shut down. And so there's some. There's some external safety there, which is, like, can be established also through a relationship with a therapist, a teacher, friends, a certain group container. But the. It's the internal safety that I'm most interested in. And that's because that's what we have the most influence over. And that sort of safety comes from the recognition that we have the capacity to meet and be with and get through what arises in our internal experience. The thoughts, the emotions, the sensation, and the conglomeration of all of those in any case given moment. And most of the time, we don't feel safe with our internal world because we haven't spent much time moving closer to it and getting to know it and understanding it and practicing grounding from a vantage point of awareness to these elements rather than just being tossed around by them, as most of us are for much of our life. Unless we've intentionally done practices or taking steps toward understanding this inner world and how to work with it. And that's the inner safety then extends from that.

Yeah, I can't agree more. I think you use that a lot, that idea of safety when you talk about softening the walls. You cannot do that unless you feel like I'm allowed to. I'm strong enough inside to let myself be, to let myself out, to be curious, as opposed to trying to control everything around us to keep us safe.

Yeah, yeah, well said. Especially those walls around the heart. I mean, there's so many reasons why, you know, what unsafety could look like there. It could be this fear of if I soften these walls, I'm going to get hurt because my heart's going to be more available. And, you know, last time that happened, I was taken advantage of. Right. So there could be some fear around there, but it could also be a fear of, like, if I soften these walls, I'm gonna look, I'm gonna look soft and I'm gonna lose, like, the. The mask of the facade that I've been holding and orienting my life around so there can be some ego stuff involved there. So there's just so many interesting layers to it. But if we're not clear on what the fear is there and that that's not somewhat taken care of, then we'll usually be subconsciously defending the post and the guarding and the walls and all of that.

Yeah, yeah, I just. Conversation is making me think about a funny experience I had a few years ago. Well, thankfully eight years ago, I went through cancer, and when I went through chemo, of course I lost all of my hair. And I think it was during that time when I realized I cannot control how other people see me. I had no feeling of protection that, you know, having long blonde hair and looking, the look gave to me any longer, and it was Really a startling experience, and you have to live through it. Unfortunately, you can't. You can wear wigs, but I chose not to. Eventually, I just said, here I am, and I want you to just see this, and I'm not going to hide this and do with it as you will. It's not up for me to decide how you respond or react or avoid me in the grocery store aisle, which happens. You wouldn't guess how many times.

Wow.

So it's funny, I even have a photo of me. I dressed up. Maybe this is sacrilege to say, but I dressed up as a Buddhist monk for Halloween because it was so perfect.

It's a great way to blend with the reality.

People would answer their doors, and I had my kids with me, and they'd look at me and they were like, are you dressed up or is this real?

Yeah. Wow, that's cool. Isn't it also so interesting, though, like, how much we typically don't realize our ways of how the world is relating to us is based on certain things until those things shift, and then it's like, oh, my gosh, so much of that was because of, like, this one thing or the absence of something.

Exactly. It made me think when you were talking about masking, this sort of masking I had just done through my appearance, you know, how I wanted people to perceive me and not being able to control that anymore. Crazy.

Yeah.

But, yeah, in fact, you know, I mean, for drifting into talking about sort of mastery and masking, something else I've experienced over time is the more that I have learned personally in my personal growth, sometimes I'll get to a point where I feel like, oh, I know all this. You know, I've got mastery over this. And it feels again, to go back to safety. It feels very safe. I feel secure in this. I feel like I've made it, I've done it. And then something else happens, and I start to feel bored and brittle, and I remind myself, wow, you know, you need to go back to not knowing again. And I don't want that. Like, I resist that completely. I don't want to go back into that space of not being in control and not knowing.

Yeah, I hate not knowing.

You practice it every day, though, right?

I like it, like, fundamentally uncomfortable. And it's just. I mean, like, the true, like, true not knowing. Right. I can hang out in the meditative space of, like, awareness. And, you know, you get. And I'm sure you already have this, or you. I know you have this based on the different experiences you've had, like, you're more comfortable with certain states of not knowing or certain levels of not knowing than you were, you know, Pre cancer or 10, 20, 30 years ago through different experiences. And so we, you know, we hit a new baseline. But. But, like, when you really get to a threshold of, like, the not knowing, that's, like, beyond whatever baseline you're at at this point, that's always vulnerable. It's, like, always fundamentally disorienting, no matter how awake or enlightened you are. Because the nature of the not knowing is you. You're at the interface between what you do know and what does feel clear and what does make sense and what doesn't. And just that itself is unsettling. And I think the main thing that we achieve over time in working with that is just a trust in the recognition of, oh, this is familiar. I've seen this before. It still is painful. Really scary. But I know this is part of a larger process and that just then allows us to relax and surrender into.

Yeah. As opposed to, you know, what I'm. What I tend to do. This is a confessional with you today, Corey. But which is to say. All right, I want to think that I know this. Maybe I don't know. And if I don't know what opens to me, then. And it's like the world comes back in color again.

Oh, wow.

You know, that's my approach.

I love it.

Okay, so I'm gonna rapidly switch a gear here. That's okay. There's a couple so many little topics I wanted to touch on, and we don't have that much time together. There is a word that you brought to my attention in your book called spiritual bypassing.

Yeah.

Meaning acting as if all is well. It's like a toxic positivity, I think, is how people are. Are putting it today.

Yeah.

Tell me about this. Because I. I see it, I smell it, and never quite put my finger on it. I'm like, are they just. Is this person simply developing the feelings inside them that they want to have, and they're showing the world I am content and I'm blissful, and I'm. I'm. I'm forgiven. And I'm. You know. Because I think that's a good thing to try to develop those emotional states in us.

Yeah.

But then I smell something else. You know, it's like a little sewer gas is coming up.

Right.

Something off about this and.

And that. That is the. The thing to hone in on. It's like the felt sense, the energetic sense of what of how we're orienting to a particular situation. And so for context, for those listening, spiritual bypassing is this term coined by the late psychologist John Wellwood, where he just noticed this tendency in his spiritual community and even with his therapeutic students, that a tendency to try to override the raw, messy side of one's life and prematurely adopt some end point of being happy or awake or enlightened or calm with everything and at peace with all things. It's like we're working toward that, or like we have some endpoint we're working toward, but we prematurely plop ourselves into that state without actually doing the work of getting there and navigating all the real things that are potentially in the way of that or part of that process of getting there. And this is where you get, like, someone who maybe at the PTA meeting and there's a bit of a conflict. And then it's like, I think we all just need to calm down and be relaxed and be nice. When in reality, like, that person is seething, and their own inability to be with their anger or their inner conflict or conflict in their relationship then gets projected out onto someone else. And you see a lot of that kind of projection online on social media, but just in the world. When a person doesn't have space for their own complexity, they make it wrong in another person or community or the world at large. If we don't feel safe internally, then it gets projected out of, like, the world is unsafe. So when we where this, like, where this can get tricky is like, it's still useful to want to cultivate loving, positive states. And, you know, if you're feeling negative, does that mean that you should just let yourself, you know, wallow in the negativity and just go down into that? Or should you shift into a different thought pattern or, like, focus on what you're grateful for, Cultivate forgiveness or something like that there. I unfortunately, don't have very clear answers to that. I think it's, like, very subjective from person to person. The one thing I will invite people to look at is what is your default pattern? Because you can learn a lot from default patterns. If anytime you feel something uncomfortable come up, your quick response is to go into, well, let me focus on what I'm grateful for. And this isn't that bad because I at least have it better than this person. If you're always doing that, and if you're doing it in a way that is like trying to suppress the state, there's a good chance there's some bypassing happening there. And then you could say, like, so what? Well, the so what is if you are pushing that down, it's not actually going anywhere. It's not getting addressed. You're kind of just masking it with a cognitive idea of happiness or a certain kind of state, but that will be waiting there for you beneath the surface. Or it will get projected to other people in some way. And so if we get even more granular with that and like, that example of like, let's just say you're feeling sad and you use the comparing to someone else as like, well, at least I don't have it as bad as them. Right. Even that, like, that statement isn't necessarily spiritual bypassing. And this is where I said the energetic pattern of it is important because I can feel, like. Let me just say, like, feel into my own experience of feeling, like, oh, yeah, there's like, I'm feeling a little bummed today about something that happened. So I can. I can acknowledge that of feeling down and then at the same time, like, holding that and giving myself permission for that. Also acknowledge of, like, yeah, and Corey, like, what you're bummed about in the context of, like, what someone else might be going through. It's, like, important to hold this in perspective. And therefore I'm not invalidating my experience. I'm inviting in another experience and letting that touch it and then see what shifts. So that I wouldn't say is spiritual bypassing. I would say that's, like, a skillful use of attention. There might be other times, though, where, like, I haven't given myself permission to be bummed and I'm really sad and I just need to, like, be in it and let myself be in it, and I do. Or the spiritual bypassing version could be that comes up, I feel bummed, and then just, like, quickly. No, you shouldn't. You shouldn't because you have it so good. And it's the not giving yourself any space to feel it, the fear of feeling it that I'm most skeptical of in those moments.

Yeah. When you say you shouldn't, that really captures it.

Yeah.

I always look at it. Like, if I'm having a feeling that's rough, I suggest to myself that I embrace it. And I use the word embrace because to me, embracing is always a kind of loving, loving holding. And I can embrace it for a few seconds and that's all it needed, and then it flies away. And I can then feel the thing I really actually want to feel.

Yeah.

But embracing, I guess, as opposed to suppressing.

Yeah. Well said. I think that's a great synopsis.

Bypassing is such a gentler word than spiritual gaslighting. I have to say, he nailed that one.

Yeah, I know. I love that term.

Yeah. I also think that, you know, in our lives, everything is either a friend or a teacher or both. Even the most difficult experiences. So I try and apply that perspective. And, okay, if this was a friend, even this terrible thing, I don't just turn and ignore them. I'm gonna go into it. What is it? You know, why? What's here for us?

Beautiful. So that's great.

That's a thought. So you're a teacher. You teach at UPenn as well, right?

Yeah. So for the last seven or eight years, I've been an assistant instructor in the positive psychology graduate program there, which is where I did. I did my graduate work.

That is fabulous. I'm not sure which question to ask, so I'll ask both, and you tell me which one, because they're kind of similar. The first one is, with all of your students, what is the first thing you really want them to get or understand? But the second question. Wait, wait. Is what's the actual thing you want to eventually really get them to grasp or understand? Because there's a difference, I think.

Yeah. That's interesting. Let me feel into that difference. First thing. Well, I think with all of my students, regardless of the context, it's a curiosity to show up to your experience. Like, moving from a place of. This is like, a place of, like, shame, and I shouldn't be feeling the way I'm feeling to one of, wow, it's really complicated and messy to be human. And what a gift to be able to lean into it and to be curious about it without having to add more shame to my experience based on what I see. And so the first thing I'm always doing for folks is helping to normalize their experience so that they're able to lean into it more. And that becomes the foundation for any sort of work that's. That's then done.

Yeah, I was thinking that sounds like the groundwork. So that would kind of be the first thing that you want people to get to.

Right. And then kind of a where we move toward is holding the capacity to hold our own complexity, because the more we're able to hold our own complexity, the more we have space for other people's complexity. And I've just seen the direct line between my own ability to be with and show compassion toward and hold with love all the. All the different facets of Me and parts of me. The direct line between that and the ability to do that with, with others that I, you know, people often think of meditation or some of this work as like navel gazing. And there's versions of it, I think that can be that. But my experience of it, it's like it's the deepest collective work you can do as well. And so, yeah, moving to this space of just being permission and capacity to hold more and more layers of yourself.

The deepest self acceptance on the planet. In other words.

Well said.

And to get there, I mean, you obviously, you know, promote meditation and mindfulness. Or is there a distinction between the two? How do you share that?

Yeah, it depends on who you talk to. You can think of. If we just really wanted to make it simplified. You think of meditation as like going to the gym. It's like the place to practice a form of exercise. And then mindfulness is like your, your mental fitness level. So it's the thing that we're cultivating through meditation. Some would argue that, you know, they're no less than the same thing, but I think it's just helpful to view meditation as like the structured period of time that you're using to cultivate a certain quality of mindfulness. And then mindfulness is something that can be available to us in every single moment. Certain quality of awareness, relating to our experience with compassion, curiosity, heartfulness. And yeah, I do. You know, these are the foundation of my teachings. It's where my growth journey started. And I still view it as foundational despite all the other things that I've explored. But I definitely don't force it on anyone. And I think there are times where it's not the right. Meditation might not be the right thing or stillness, practice might not be the right thing because it can be very intimate to go into your inner world like that. And if you've never done it before, and if there's a lot there in the background, it might first be good to do more of a movement practice to get used to being in your body or working with a therapist or doing different. Some trauma work like emdr, somatic experiencing to develop a sense of integration, embodiment and internal orientation before going into, you know, closing the eyes and just being with your, your inner world. But for the most part there's, there's on ramps for, for everyone and ways to adapt the practice to meet where you are and to cultivate what's what you're most called to at this stage of your life.

That makes a lot of sense. I never really Considered those other practices as an on ramp or something that you would want to sort of cultivate the soil before you plant the seeds of, you know, going in your mind. What is your favorite form? Like what do you practice? I mean, nitty gritty of meditation.

Yeah, well, it always depends on like the season I'm in my life. I do very much like walking meditation and will tend to do a combination of walking and sitting meditation as like a. That's two foundational, let's just say groups of practice the walking. Like when I meditate in the morning, I like to do walking first because just feels like my body needs to move a little bit and it can feel a little too oppressive to just like force myself back into stillness after being asleep. Yeah. So I start by just getting some movement and we did that in a monastery too. The first, first practice was a half hour of walking meditation and you do an hour of stillness. And when I'm doing that, typically just feeling each foot on the ground might go very slow or walk at a normal pace. Could be outside, could be inside. And that's just. I'm just beginning to ground my attention, giving myself something to attune to noticing the swirling of thoughts, maybe in my mind observing them and then just coming back to the focus point. It's very simple focus practice in that way and then my sitting practice that will often start with just allowing myself to just sit in a very spacious way. I like to feel like I'm first spreading out and taking up space energetically in the room. Kind of like a bale of hay. If you imagine trimming the string and it just kind of collapsing and spreading down and out. I imagine myself feeling that energetically. There's so much contraction that happens throughout the day for us and maybe not wanting to take up space or feeling small. And so this is just. It's like acknowledging my right to be me and so let that down and out. It's not imposing on anyone else's right to be them. It's just like this is me here I am allowing myself to be in my, my field and then from there I like move from the outside in, allow there to be spaciousness. Kind of just get a general orientation to what's moving through my mind and body in this moment. Like are there a lot of thoughts? Like for instance yesterday and today there's been a lot happening on social media for me with some posts that were made and so like a lot of activation that's happening there. So to go in my meditation and just kind of like, force myself to focus on my breath immediately. It just, it almost feels bypassy. And as we were talking about just like, no, do this. And so I first just meet like, whoo, yeah. There's a lot of energy here. And that is a practice of presence, practice of mindfulness, of awareness. So I just let myself feel the energy and as it. As it wants. And if it wants to slowly collect itself, I'll then bring it maybe to one pointedness, like on the breath. But if it's. If the sense of it is like, it's quite erratic and just feels big and trying to narrow attention feels uncomfortable, then I just give it space and I'm just practicing loving myself and the energy and allowing it to be there and watching it, both like in an intimate way, but also in an impartial way. Just like, oh, wow. It's interesting to see this move through me. And a lot of my practice is that these days just kind of like being and allowing what's here to move through the waves of it to move through without taking it so personally and without not taking it personally at all. Meaning, like pretending that it's not mine to work with or not. My responsibility is, you know, that's the paradox of some of these practices. It's like we're leaning into them and owning them at this, and at the same time, we're practicing not taking them so personally. Yeah. And so that's like a high level orientation to what my practice looks like these days.

Yeah. I love the sense of freedom that you're describing in your meditation. And it's making me realize I often have a knee jerk sense of restriction when I attempt to meditate and maybe I need to shift that.

Yeah. You know, you're not alone. Most people do. And I think it's why most people avoid practice. And for those who do have a particular, like, emotional coupling with practice like that, where we like associate it with maybe rigidity or tightness, I would really use that as an opportunity to first just ask openly, like, well, what is it? What is it that I actually want? Why. Why do I want to resist this? And it might just. It might be something like, you know, at the end of the day, like, I've just been doing so much and like, trying to have it all together. I don't want to, like, I don't just. I don't want to like, sit still and have to do another thing and focus just feels like extra day doing. And so it's like, oh, okay, so what's the feeling that you do Want. I just want to, like, collapse and do nothing and just watch tv. And so, like, what would it be to actually give yourself full permission for that? Just like, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna let myself be. Let go and watch tv and I'm just gonna bring more awareness to that process. Like, I'm gonna feel my body relax more. I'm gonna let myself experience what it's like to be fully, like, let go, to not have to do anything and let that, like, saturate you rather than feeling like. Because what. What often happens is then we don't do either thing. Well, we force ourselves into meditation when we don't want to be there, or we convince ourselves we should just relax and watch tv, but then we feel guilty about it. And so, like, do the TV thing and let the practices be full permission for where you're at. And I'm not saying, like, that's necessarily the path to, like, that that's going to give you the same thing that maybe a structured meditation practice over time would give, but it's going to give you way more than you forcing yourself into some idea of meditation. And it is a very deep practice to be giving yourself that permission. And the main thing being if you. You first just meet the energy of what you really want and blend with that as your meditation, then I think that's the best way to practice. And it allows you to be embodied. It allows you to be aligned with yourself. And the. The maybe less absolute version of that example is instead of watching tv, it's just like I'm just going to lay down on the floor, just let myself be. I'm gonna feel my heart beating, feel my breath, but I'm also gonna let my mind wander if it wants to go. And then you might feel like, oh, okay, that actually. I actually feel more compelled by that than whatever idea I had of what the meditation should be.

All right, I'm doing that. I'm gonna go lay on the floor. Gonna let all the things come up, like loosening a lid full of jar full of fireflies as you described, with the chaotic emotions. Just let them, let them be and be with them until they decide to fly away.

Yeah.

Corey, thank you so much. I want to again mention so much of this came from your book, Stop Missing youg Life. I mean, so many of my questions came from your book as well as listening to your podcast, Practicing Human. And I know you do something with texting people.

Yeah. So I send out a free daily text message teaching every day. It's like A little prompt or question or quote for people to reflect on. I started it for just like a handful of my students and it's become one of my most popular offerings. People love starting their day with it or share it with people. So if anyone wants to join that, you can just just text the word summer to 1-631-305-2874 and it'll automatically put you on the list. You can unsubscribe at any time and it's totally free. And then the text will start the next day, Monday through Friday. Yeah, and it's just a nice way to kind of prime the mind in the morning and stay connected to some of these practices.

Beautiful. Yes. I love Please text my name. All right, thanks so much, Corey. I really appreciate you taking the time away from your day to share with me and everyone listening. All of us.

My my pleasure, Summer. Thank you so much. And thank you everyone for listening.

And there we have it. I hope you really enjoyed today's episode. I'm going to go lay down on the floor. Well, maybe I'll have a cup of coffee before I lay down on the floor and let my expansive thoughts rummage and rumpus around the room like a bunch of freed elephants. Maybe you'll feel inspired to do the same thing. This time. I'm not doing any shower thoughts with you guys because I think we just showered in thought, metaphorically speaking. And I'll update you on personal life and etc. As we go back to our regular format. But I love doing these little interviews now and then and just popping them in. I hope you guys are enjoying them too. And if you are interested in learning more, well I got a little note for Hugh right here at the end. It's about me school. I hope to meet some of you there. I'll talk to you next time. See you for another episode of Still Kind of Woo Woo Flow Dreaming Mi school is happening and it only happens once a year. This year we're starting in September and it is a wild and wonderful ride. In fact, last year more than half of the students were taking it for their second or third time. Which is crazy. What it tells you is that one Mi school is epic for learning how to awaken or accelerate your intuition, learning to manifest at a richer, deeper level, and for creating those long standing desires, making those things in your life finally real. And two me school works. Just works. So head on over to flowdreaming.com meschool. We are registering you right now. I really hope to see you as part of our M.E. school class and one of the next people on this planet to graduate into their next level self again. Just head on over to flowdreaming.com MI school and learn all about it.