EP 11. Beauty Insiders BYBI on Trends in the Natural Beauty Market

Hello and welcome to the Formula Botanica Green Beauty Conversations podcast. To find out more about our award winning online organic cosmetic science courses, please head over to formulabotanica.com and check out our sample class. In this week, we're chatting to the fabulous Dominika and Elsie from Bybee Beauty, who are our graduates and Formula Botanica ambassadors. We chat about greenwashing, sustainability, makeup and what to do when people tell you that natural and organic cosmetics don't work. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to the podcast, Elsie and Dominika.

Hello.

Hi. Thanks so much for having us.

It's a pleasure. So we're really excited to have you. We've done a lot of things together over the years and obviously I know who you are and what you do, but I thought for the benefit of our listeners, you could explain what you do, what types of products you sell.

Yeah, of course. So this is Elsie speaking. We're the co founders of Clean Beauty Co and Bybee Beauty. So we started out our journey into natural beauty through Clean Beauty Co, which is basically a content platform for natural beauty content, and that is things like recipes, your skin, your hair, your body, tips, advice, reviews of all sorts of natural products. So Dominika and I are still very much active on that platform. And then we founded Bybee Beauty, which is our skincare brand last summer. Bybee stands for bybeauty Insiders. So it's a bit of a nod back to the fact that that that's how we started. You know, we're formulators, bloggers, influencers, consumers. And so I think for us, you know, it's about being inside beauty. And we do high performance skincare that's 100% natural, certified vegan and certified cruelty free.

Yay. So what sort of products have you got out at the moment?

So we've got seven products. We have things like a multipurpose beauty balm, which is definitely like a handbag favorite. And I guess with a lot of our products, we tend to focus on them being quite multipurpose. So we have like a mask and scrub in one. We have a powder face mask that can be customized at home. We have a lip balm and a lip scrub which we launched recently that's doing really, really well. And then we have things like a serum and a mist as well. So kind of really solid skincare essentials. And things we're going to launch are things like cleansers, which I think definitely an appetite for, and then a couple more masks as well. So we're very firmly in the kind of High performance skincare realm.

Yeah. So, yeah, lots going on for you guys then. So one of the reasons why we wanted to get you on the podcast was because obviously, as you know, bloggers, beauty consumers, and now formulators, you've been in the industry for quite a while and you know it quite well. And the reason why we wanted to start the podcast was to talk about more kind of philosophical aspects of the green beauty industry that we don't get to discuss via our other platforms. And one of the things I wanted to talk to you today about what? Greenwashing. So as the organic and natural sector.

Moves more into the mainstream, I think.

That we certainly at Formula Botanica have been seeing a lot more instances of greenwashing and, you know, people and brands using the word sustainability and without actually kind of, you know, being accountable in any meaningful way for using those terms. So what did you guys think about greenwashing in the industry at the moment?

Yeah, I think for us, greenwashing, we kind of come at it from two angles. So I find it frustrating as a consumer as well as as a beauty brand. I think the frustrations for me running a skincare brand that adheres to things like being 100% natural and then seeing brands kind of using greenwashing in order to gain positive PR and as a kind of marketing tool is just that. I think that greenwashing encourages confusion in the industry and among consum. And I think for brands like ours who are trying our best to kind of like make a change and not greenwash, but just green, it can mean that actually when we're trying to get our message across, the consumer is already quite confused because there's a lot of messaging out there and actually there's a level of kind of mistrust among consumers. So for smaller brands, it can be quite hard to cut through and actually to gain consumer trust and actually demonstrate that we're not greenwashing and we are, you know, doing what we say we do. And I think, yes, our experience so far with greenwashing has been, yeah, of a level of kind of frustration of the way that the industry's gone in that way, being a small brand trying to kind of do well basically and do good.

I think it kind of stems to one of the main reasons why we made the switch and kind of started Clean beauty company in that big brands often shout about an ingredient being on a label. They'll say it's, you know, got pure organic Argan oil. Or, you know, I saw a tanning brand recently that launched that uses One organic ingredient amongst many non very synthetic ingredients. And they've got organic plaster all over their website, which I think is incredibly misleading because actually their products are nowhere near the standards that we would expect out of an organic product. And tanning for sure, you know, the main chemical that creates tanning is just absolutely not natural or organic. So I think it's unfair that brands can so kind of absentmindedly just throw these terms in. You know, definitely confusing the consumer, but also adding value to their products that doesn't exist that time and time again. And it's done either through imagery, you know, a lovely leaf on the package, or it's done, you know, through marketing messaging around ingredients that, you know, in reality there's a very, very small percentage of. And those that can read, you know, beauty labels can be quite savvy to that. But the average consumer is, is still somewhat mystified by the long ingredients list. So I think that there definitely needs to be more regulation around it and I think it attracts consumers that are seeking better alternatives, but fall into the pitfall of just buying the same brands and the same products, thinking that they're doing better, but actually they're not.

Yeah, and I guess there's no real accountability, you know, there's no sort of real comeback. And you know, I was talking when we were in cosmetics recently, we saw this so much like with what you said, like with packaging. So you had, it could have been brands, ingredient supplies, whatever it was across the board where they had these big kind of stands and all the marketing materials all green and they had like pictures of farms and everything, so it looked amazing. And then you would prod it a little bit deeper and you'd be like, okay, so you know, what is that? Like what is the actual product? And they would explain, you're like, right, okay, so that's not natural then. Or if they use the word sustainable, you'd be like, how is it sustainable? And they're like, well it comes from nature. Okay, but how is it harvested or how is it grown? Is it over farmed? Is it, you know, say. There seemed to be confusion amongst consumers as well as suppliers as well. They didn't really know know what the term meant or what they were actually doing.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's kind of brands trying to play to a number of different kind of consumer. I'll call it trends. It's probably not the best word, but kind of like trends that we're seeing in the industry. So there's things like natural, vegan, cruelty free, Sustainability, eco friendly. And I think brands get a little bit lost in what all of those actually mean because it's kind of not standardized in those terms aren't standardized. And so they try and kind of do a bit of everything and actually what they end up doing is nothing very well and causing a hell of a lot of confusion. And then as you say, when they get questioned into things or people kind of try and probe a little bit more, they're actually not able to come back with like real true, sort of like brand ethics and pillars that they wholeheartedly stand by because they're not really sure what they mean. They're kind of doing them in reaction to the way that the consumers are kind of moving. And, and so I think, yeah, it's just. And I don't necessarily think that it's, you know, when we talk about greenwashing, it's not always like the big, you know, four conglomerates, we can never say that doing things in a really nasty, evil way. Like, that's not always what we mean. I think it's actually some, you know, a lot of brands who just don't really know what those terms mean and they kind of don't understand the responsibility that they have in using those terms on their packaging and their kind of consumer communication. So I think again, it comes down to just too much kind of like info and nobody kind of really standardizing what those terms actually mean and what they mean for consumer.

I think with us as well, like, I hear a lot of people, our own consumers, talk about us as being an organic brand. I mean, we have no messaging around being organic at all across any of our marketing material, across our social, you know, we're not certified organics, therefore we would never claim to be. But you know, I often hear just like anecdotal, like, yeah, I found this new great organic brand. And I think because people just don't understand what those terms mean. They probably, probably mean natural, they probably mean eco friendly or eco conscious. But organic just seems to be the kind of typical word used to describe brand like brands like ours. And then again, that just adds to further confusion because then someone else might see that and say to us, okay, well, you know, where's your certification? Or what number of organic ingredients do you use in your products, et cetera? And we'll be like, well, we're not organic. So it just because these terms are so unregulated, people just throw them out really liberally. And it's just so confusing for everyone, to be honest. Even as a Brand as a consumer, you know, I see all. All the time and I just know for sure that those brands aren't organic. But do they even know? You know, it's difficult.

Yeah. And I also think that brands will interpret because again, it just goes back to there being no standardized or standardization around these terms. Brands will kind of interpret them in their own way. So, you know, I was listening to your podcast when you're the first or second one around, like what is natural? And you know, the different stages of natural naturally brands will take those stages and use them very differently. And natural to us might mean natural to very, like something very different to somebody else. And again, it just goes back to the fact that we might all be using the terms in the. With the best intention, but there isn't like a standard. Like, okay, what does natural actually mean then? And so messaging gets kind of.

Yeah.

Confused. I think a bit muddled.

Yeah, yeah, it happens a lot. I mean, especially with the term organic and natural.

Yeah.

Because like you say, it varies so much. Brands can have one organic ingredient in and claim to be organic and they can have one naturally derived ingredient and claim to be natural. And there isn't that many resources that you can go for really good explanations on those things, which is why we did that podcast in the first place. And we're going to have a series of blogs and other podcasts with people who can talk like in knowledgeable detail about like sustainable harvesting, what that actually means, sustainable growing of ingredients, what it really, really means, as well as brands who or like ingredient suppliers who have set up a really short supply chains and have very specific values attached to their brand and their business are held accountable for those things.

We shared a post on Clean Beauty Co a few weeks ago, just asking what people's thoughts were on like broadly a green brand or like an eco brand, like what they look for kind of in green credentials. And you know, the way that we buybee speak about kind of green and eco is very much about our kind of environmental impact. So things like our packaging, obviously like our supply chain. But actually some of the feedback that came back was people were talking about they're actually quite interested in the human aspect, which again, still definitely falls under green. But it was something that kind of. We hadn't necessarily thought about or thought that would be of importance to people. But actually I got into a conversation with one of our followers who, yeah, was saying what was more important to her was, you know, who's harvesting these products? You know, how are they harvested? How do they reach Us, like, who touches them in that kind of journey before they get to us? And are those people treated fairly? You know, who's making your glass packaging? Like, where does that come from? So that was a whole other.

Goodness, there's so much to think about.

But that was a whole other definition of green, you know, and that we kind of hadn't even considered in great depth. But to her, that was how she viewed green. That was how she viewed a kind.

Of like eco green brand. So.

Well, I suppose, interestingly, that's one of the kind of I say arguments, but criticisms leveled against the kind of. And again, trend is probably the wrong word to use, but we see it in skincare, but the vegan kind of trend, because you can be, you know, not eating meat and dairy and everything, so you're, you're not doing any harm to animals. But where do all those blueberries come from that you've been eating? And where does the quinoa come from? And, and all that stuff? And how is it harvested? How is it grown? Who is benefiting from it? What are the conditions of the labor? What is the pay? Like, you know, so that there are a lot of people that are really, really pushing for those things to be noticed and included. If you're calling yourself like an ethical, sustainable green company, because those words kind of come across so many different, like sections, like you say, supply chain packaging, people who does your work for you, what are you paying them, all that sort of stuff. So interesting topic as a whole. Let's move on to something else that's also, I would like to get your opinion on because it's something that we come across quite a lot. Obviously we teach people how to formulate natural and organic, organic skincare and hair care. And we have quite a few naysayers, so the green deniers, we call them. So we'll post up stuff and they'll come and they'll say, but naturals don't work. And there's no evidence that naturals work. And why are you trying to, you know, get all these people to set up these natural organic brands? Because they don't work and stop putting out this information. So, I mean, you guys are successful entrepreneurs and skincare brand owners. I mean, do you come up against that? And if you do, what do you say to people?

Yeah, I mean, I think that is one of the main reasons why we started Bybee actually was as natural beauty consumers. We didn't feel like they were marketed in a way that really spoke to their performance. And actually, you know, the Level of potency of some of these products just means that of course you're going to get better results, you know. So we felt that the mainstream market often turned its nose down at natural, which is why we've gone for a really distinct look and brand feel around Bybee, not necessarily putting green leaves over everything and really shouting about necessarily its natural credentials. First and foremost, we always talk about efficacy, and then once people are kind of bought into that, then we make them loyal through all of the strong ethical pillars that we have around the brand. But it's not necessarily our first or strongest message because, yeah, there is misconceptions around performance. They tend to, you know, mainstream beauty buyers tend to think that natural products are really basic, that they only have five ingredients, that they were handmade, you know, in someone's backyard and they were like made down the road and they're sold at a market which is, you know, the market has completely shifted since then and definitely those trends existed and still exist, but there's a whole new sector of natural beauty which, you know, shows innovation, shows real kind of trend focused formulation and formulations that really kind of push the boundaries of what natural has always meant to people. So Bybee is definitely trying to change those misconceptions and is difficult. You know, I even saw a post by a big Instagrammer and she got sent some Tata Harper products and the first thing she said was, I was just so surprised. Like, it's natural, but it actually worked.

It's like.

The most like, high performance, like incredible formulations and she was actually surprised. It had a good effect. So, yeah, I mean, there's a massive misconception around that. And I think traditional cosmetic chemists will always turn their nose down at natural because there's limitations on it. But there's still so much innovation to be had. So they should relish that challenge rather than, you know, turn their noses down.

Her Nose down, where she basically a cliche and like changes it into her own thing. So she's like, turn your nose down is a new thing. You said it three times. I had to pull you off on it. It's so funny. We'll be in meetings and like, you're just like the things that she comes up with. You're like, is that a saying? I'm not sure if that is a saying.

Like Australia, we do everything backwards. Well, that's one for the book.

Yeah, got that. I'm like writing them down as we're going on because they just make me laugh.

Turn up.

Yeah, Turning your nose up. I think the thing is, I think there's a few things. I think there are some companies doing the, like, nature versus synthetic kind of argument quite well. So companies like Drunk Elephant in the US who kind of saying, look, we're kind of like clinically clean, they're calling it, so they don't kind of bash synthetics at all. But they're very, very mindful about what they do use and why they use that particular synthetic ingredient if they have included it in their formulation. And I think that's quite an interesting way of looking at things, because, you know, what we see so often in the mainstream beauty industry is ingredients used for cost and not efficacy. And actually what ends up then happening is you've just got these, like, blanket formulations that all the brands bring out, and they're super cheap to produce, and they're really high in water and they're preserved till, you know, high hell. And that's kind of, you know, as natural skincare formulators. That's our issue with mainstream. We're not necessarily bashing synthetic ingredients. We're just saying on the whole, when they get introduced, it's not for the benefit of the skin. It's actually for the benefit of the form, the formulation for the brand, if that makes sense. So I think there's brands that are doing some interesting things in the kind of like challenging that nature versus synthetic kind of argument. But, you know, more generally, the reason that we switched to natural, and I guess what we say to people is, you know, your skin's an organ, and it's about keeping your skin healthy. And actually the ingredients that we use kind of feed it, and they work because this, we're promoting your skin in its kind of best condition rather than trying to, like, zap your fine lines around your eyes or whatever. Actually, what we're saying is we're viewing your skincare kind of more holistically, and the ingredients that we're choosing are not natural in the same way that you would choose those ingredients to eat because it would benefit your health, you know, So I think it's looking at skincare kind of health rather than specific sort of skin concerns. And on the whole, what that means is that you just get kind of very healthy skin, and in turn, it looks younger, it looks firmer, it looks brighter, you get that glow, you know. So that's kind of how we try and approach things. We're very mindful of not bashing the kind of like, synthetic thing too much because, you know, actually what we want to promote is using really great ingredients for really great reasons. And so that's kind of how we tackle it. We don't go in and say we don't use this because it's gonna give you cancer, whatever, because it's just not like a great way to promote things. And also, if you're then speaking to the green bashers, that's a really difficult way to get them on board and to kind of sell in your argument. Because a lot of, you know, the reason that they're green bashing is because they're kind of defending an industry that can sometimes, yeah, I guess attack what they do and why they do it.

So yeah, Lixir Skin. And their narrative is quite similar to Drunk Elephant in that it's not about whether something's natural, synthetic. It's like, does it work? You know, the woman that founded it is a cosmetic chemist for all of the big brands and has been working in the industry for over 20 years. So she's definitely, you know, very understanding of the tactics that big brands use. And we always see really good feedback about their products and, you know, particular around the efficacy. People really rave about after using it one time, you know, they notice a difference. And that's what we would aspire to as well. You know, it doesn't matter what the ingredients are, as long as they are there for a reason, they're high quality and they have an effect, a positive effect on your skin. And for the long term, it's not just about masking, you know, a short term issue with, you know, a bit of silicone or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Just the reason that we just went, sorry, just in case that sounded really weird, was because DPD Courier just arrived and we use DPD because they a carbon neutral company and their bags are biodegradable. So that is a way that we approach, you know, one of our green.

Credentials as a band.

But he just popped in to pick up and then he was like, sorry. So that was the interrupt.

It was interesting because I really working day right here, me mixing up my idioms, GPD popping in.

My kitchen. I met with someone today. He was working with a cosmetic chemist. And this cosmetic chemist had spent 20 years working for like big kind of firms and decided they didn't want to work with them anymore and set up their own company focusing on naturals and organics. And they actually have a product, it's just really innovative product. It retails for around £200. And I remember at the one conference you were at, you guys said, you know, I don't see why naturals can't sit up there with the likes of your kind of big brands. And I think, interesting, in terms of efficacy, that's starting to, to kind of filter through a little bit more because if you can get someone like that being stocked, you know, I don't know if they're stocked in the uk, but they're definitely stocked abroad. You know, retailing successfully at like around 200 pounds, that says something for efficacy because I don't think people are going to spend that money, you know, on something that they feel doesn't work.

People still buy La Mer and.

Outwardly blushing, outwardly just name shaming.

I mean, people obviously still get lured in by those sorts of things. But again, you know, it is, it's a choice and if it's an informed choice, then that's, you know, that's what you still want to use. Yeah, by all means. You know, I think that's where we come from as well. We don't want to bash synthetics or, you know, because everything has its place somehow. It's just obviously there are that group of naysayers that kind of make you question something and I know our community faces it as well. They'll be like, oh, people just said to me, you know, why am I doing what I'm doing? Because it doesn't work.

No, that's crazy. The thing is, as well, we talk a lot about this, but in this day and age, efficacy is something that is becoming more and more transparent. So I think it's giving the chance to the indie and the natural brands to kind of rise through the ranks a little bit because of social media. So basically, if a brand works, it's being called out for working, you know, like people will talk about it on social and it's being given, their efficacy is being amplified, basically. And on the flip side of that, if a brand doesn't work, perhaps the brand that, you know, has been riding off of really expensive marketing campaigns and celebrity endorsements for the last 30 years. All of a sudden there's a huge, huge group of people on social media who are calling them out that don't work. And I think that gives natural brands like ours, you know, a chance to actually get a, a bit of a, say a bit of a foot in the door and a bit of market share because people are saying, hey, it does work and I've tried it and this is what it does and this is why I like it and this is what it smells like and, you know, it's giving us that avenue and I Think that's we've seen a lot of success through kind of word of mouth, peer to peer and social referrals with people just saying these are really great products. And, you know, 10 years ago we wouldn't have got that cut through because all of the market would still be sitting with the kind of large brand whether their products worked or not. And we were trusting marketing campaigns. But now we have have just a whole wealth of reviews and of people sharing their experiences about beauty products. So it gives us a chance. So, you know, your community saying, people are telling me it doesn't work, like, you know, get the product into people's hands and then see what they say about it. It's all you need to do. And then you can kind of use all of those positive reviews. And it really does help you kind of grow as a smaller brand. So it's a good time to be in beauty, I think, if you're making products that, that are good and that work.

So talking about beauty, while I have you here, I was reading a blog post from Aidas Lucas from the Glow Getter, who'd been to the Indie Beauty Expo. I think it was la, the LA one. And she was saying how she feels like there's so much more in the US going on with natural makeup and makeup brands. And I know you mentioned that this is a question people ask you a lot about is makeup and natural makeup. So what do you think about that at the moment in the uk? What's happening with that?

Yeah, I think there's a little bit of lack of innovation in that space. I think a lot of the big brands that are coming through are from the US and it's a real shame that there's not kind of more British makeup brands kind of like leading the way, because just by the nature of it being manufactured or sold or, you know, founded abroad, typically it takes a long time to get here or it's more expensive or, you know, it's not that readily available. So I think, yeah, there's definitely an opportunity for a British brand to come in and really take that market. And again, market in a way that isn't, you know, appealing to just a niche audience, actually a mainstream audience, because you hear a lot of anecdotal feedback from models and makeup artists that use these products day in and day out, that long term there are actual real ramifications on skin, particularly models. You often hear about having really bad skin after using, you know, being on a photo shoot for three days and really craving, you know, healthier or Cleaner products.

We were even.

We went into ASOS a few months ago and met with their face and body team and the makeup artists and a lot of the models that come through vegan and they're now demanding, you know, vegan products. They won't allow anything non vegan to be applied to their face. So again, you know, even if it's not 100% natural, which is, you know, challenging for makeup, for sure, adhering to some other ethical pillars or credentials is definitely, you know, a good route to market and there's such an opportunity for a British brand to do it.

I think, I think makeup is a really good example of where the standardization of terms shifts slightly because 100% natural makeup is pretty much unheard of really. I don't know any brand that does it. Maybe RMS and their Living Luminizer. I don't know what they. I think that's maybe coconut oil and. No, not quite as. It's not 100%, is it?

No, I don't think you, you can ever really. I mean there's, I mean we could do a whole podcast on this. It's quite complicated. I mean, hopefully we're going to be launching a makeup course in the new. So that's.

I'm doing it. Sign me up.

There's a lot of challenges in terms of research and development, developing it. But yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of British Inika, I think is Inika.

I was just gonna say that. Yeah, I think Inika is, but is that. I don't even know if theirs is 100%. Yeah, I guess my point is like, I personally, as a consumer, my dial of natural, I allow it to shift when it comes to makeup, whereas I wouldn't in skincare. So again, it's a good idea. It's a good example of where we're using the term and it means something completely different really, because in make up it's about actually it's about what's not present for me. That's what I would look for. So just making sure that there is nothing in it that I know will irritate my skin and then nothing kind of provocative in it like over skincare, where I'm looking for what is in it, basically. So my kind of like, yeah, my standards definitely shift, but that's because I also know that things like staying power, color, vibrancy of color and that sort of thing really important with makeup in a way that they're not with skincare. And so and they're just much, much harder to Achieve naturally. I think there's Lillylolo, who's a UK based brand. They're good. I like their stuff. They're also pretty reasonable in terms of price. And Inika, their long lash mascara is so good. Yeah, I would highly recommend it. My new favourite. And Jane Eyre Del. I mean they're definitely not completely natural, but most of their stuff's okay. We like their brow kit a lot. It's very good. But apart from that, you know, the likes that of RMS axiology, like all of the big guys like Ilia, you know, all of those guys who seem to be making kind of like real progress in natural cosmetics. Doesn't seem to be filtering through to the UK yet. It just doesn't. We just haven't seen it. Like if you look at content, if you go into their, you know, makeup counter. Yeah, I think it's Lilly Lolo is probably one of the only British makeup brands that they stock. So somebody's gotta do it.

Yeah, we don't have time.

You don't have time. That'll be us once I've done the course.

Guys, forget everything about.

It's a really interesting topic, makeup. I mean. Yeah. When I got married a while ago, I was determined to only use natural makeup and people were like, oh, you're not gonna be able to do it because it won't last the whole day. But it did. I used everything was, well, as natural as make can get. And it did last. It was fine.

What brands did you use?

I use Odalique.

Oh yeah, I am Pixel.

Is it Pixi? Pixel by Petra.

Oh yeah, yeah. Pixi.

Yeah.

Innika and Green people.

Yeah, Green people stuff.

They're a few winners.

Yeah. Great lipsticks, really nice lipsticks. Yeah, I guess Green people, they're UK based, aren't they?

Well, they're Danish originally, but yeah, they're in the uk. So we have actually someone from the head cosmetic chemist from Green people coming to talk at the conference.

Oh, how exciting.

Yeah. All right, so I think that's everything, more or less. And I just wanted to say thank you again for joining us. I know how busy you are.

No, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having us.

Thank you so much to Dominika and Elsie for joining us and sharing their wisdom, their thoughts, their commentary. If you want to find out out more about our courses, head over to formulabotanica.com and check out our sample class. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Formulabotanica. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for your time. And again, we appreciate all the feedback, input from our listeners. Thank you. Bye.