EP.13 Lifting the Lid on Beauty Industry Trends with Imogen Matthews

Hello and welcome to the Formula Botanica Green Beauty Conversations podcast. If you're interested in checking out one of our award winning online organic cosmetic science courses, then head over to formulabotanica.com and check out our free sample class. In this episode, I chat to Imogen Matthews from Imogen Matthews Associates about anti aging in the market, how that's changing, what the opportunities are and as well as the opportunities in the male grooming area. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Imogen.

Hello Gemma. Really nice to be here. Thanks very much for inviting me.

Oh, it's a pleasure. So Lorraine and I first met you in person at in Cosmetics, which was in Amsterdam this year and we'd long been fans of your reports and have read loads of your blogs. So for the benefit of our listeners, could you introduce yourself and tell us about your background, how you got into the beauty industry?

Yeah, well, how long have you got? Because I've been in the beauty industry for many, many years. It's actually my very first job was with Avon Cosmetics and I was on a work placement as a student in the market research department and I sort of fell into it because it was just there, if you know what I mean. I just thought this is really interesting. I really loved the whole buzz in the company there. And as I was doing my research, I discovered a research company that did cover the whole of the be. And I just thought this sounds very interesting, I'll apply for a job. And I did and I got it and that's really how it all started. So my career really has been all based around research and for many years I worked in research companies which involved analyzing data, meeting brands, presenting and really I suppose becoming an expert on the subject. So when my company was actually sold to Nielsen's in the late 1980s, I had a young family at the time and I really thought, you know, do I want to work for a keep working on like this with big research companies? And I thought, no, I want to do something on my own. So I set up my own business in 1990. So that involved working on reports, becoming a journalist. I started working with a number of the trade magazines, always writing about beauty. It's always been beauty. It's been my absolute passion all the way through, which has been great. And yeah, it just sort of evolved over the years. So everything that I do is around beauty, writing, commentating, presenting. I've worked within cosmetics now since 2000 on their marketing trends presentations. So I work with finding speakers topics. So yeah, there's a lot of really interesting Stuff that I've been involved, plus my own reports, as you say, you that up through my website. The Premium Market Report is a report which I started in 1993, and it sort of came about from a couple of clients who I'd previously worked with, and they felt that there wasn't really very much left in the market since our company had been bought out. And would I be interested in doing something that would help them understand the current trends. So that's really how it all started. And, you know, the report's been going for like 26 years. So, you know, I think I sort of must have done something right because it's been great and it's sort of evolved over the years and it's always been focused on the premium beauty industry. That's an area which I know very well. It's not to say that I don't know what's going on in the rest of the industry. Of course, it's all about beauty. But, yeah, so premium has really been my main focus. And then about. I think it must have been about six years ago I decided to start doing some themed reports. And my first report was actually on looking at the demographic, which is the older women, and how they really sort of approach beauty and whether the industry is actually doing anything to address their needs. So that's been an interesting development as well, to sort of go off into these sort of niche areas that's still very much associated with beauty and with premium.

So actually, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about today was touches on that topic that you mentioned about older women. So the anti aging market. And I know you've written a report in 2012, 2014, you've written widely about the topic, and it's a very interesting one because, you know, whatever part of the beauty sector you're in, this topic comes up. And, you know, recently we've seen a lot more interest in it in terms of, you know, larger beauty companies using older women to advertise, like Helen Mirren, Isabella Rossellini. You know, there's been brands who have dropped the term anti aging from their vocabulary. You know, there's people who have said, no, we shouldn't be using that term. We should be using the term anti aging. I mean, positive aging rather than anti aging. And there's been all sorts of, you know, different terms suggested. So I just wanted to get your opinion on that sector of the market. You know, what's happening. What do you think has caused it suddenly to sort of, you know. Well, not suddenly it's, there probably has been some sort of lead up to it, but it just seems that there's such a lot of discussion about it at the moment.

That anti aging concept in skin care, let's not forget being something which has been going on for probably millennia. Cleopatra bathing in asses, milk was all about beautifying and keeping herself looking youthful and all the rest of it. So it's something which isn't new. And it's also, let's bring it back up to date or rather the last sort of 40, 50 years or perhaps even longer than that cosmetic or skincare brands have focused on which help the skin look less wrinkled, more youthful, etc. Etc. But this whole sort of anti aging term became a sort of easy terminology, if you like, for any kind of product, whether it's skin care and actually makeup now and also, you know, body care, new mask, anti aging, haircare and all the rest of it. And it's a huge, huge industry. So I think we have to sort of separate really the industry from the terminology. Yeah. So. But the terminology has become very, very important because it's really become, it's part of the zeitgeist now that you'll find in the media. Big backlash against using terms which are negative. Yeah. Which make women, and it is mainly women feel bad about themselves. So you know, anti. So it's anti aging. You're not allowed to feel that you're getting old. You know, you have to, although we are all getting older, you know, you have to look younger. And that of course is incredibly important and prevalent throughout the 90s and the noughties, you know, so 2000s. But it's definitely changing. And I think one of the key reasons it's changing is because the demographic has become so big. There are so many women and men now moving into that over 50s demographic that, you know, we're suddenly a demographic that, that can't be ignored.

Yeah.

And my first report actually called it older women, the forgotten demographic. And you know, that was in 2012, which wasn't that long ago. And in some ways I still feel that's the case because you've rightly mentioned that some of the big companies have now started to have, you know, likes of very high profile actresses fronting their anti aging ranges. And that's great. Are they really speaking to the vast majority of the over 50s who don't necessarily aspire to look like Helen Mirren or Isabella Rosswell or whatever? So in a way I sort of feel it's almost like they're Almost doing lip service to this whole category. And it needs to be done. It has to start from somewhere. But I just wonder whether there's still so much out there that is just blanket anti aging. Some of the terminology is still, you know, very, very prevalent. I mean I was looking just this morning, it was a day cream from. It's a well known brand, it's one which I love using. And I just thought I'll just have a look at it and see what their terminology is. And yeah, there it was, it was sort of anti aging right on it. And it hasn't actually stopped me from buying it, I have to say. But if I were to make the decision, I go into a shop and I'm sort of faced with a barrage of anti aging, anti wrinkle, all that sort of negative stuff. It makes you feel, oh, you know, my wrinkles really that bad, I really need to get rid of them.

So yeah, I remember going to a presentation with Lorraine at one of a beauty event, I can't remember where what it was exactly. The person was talking about anti aging, you know, kind of cosmetic procedures, so non surgical cosmetic procedures that you could have, you know, say in your lunch break. And all of the terminology that they used to during that presentation was incredibly negative. You know, so they said things like, you know, crow's feet around your eye and baggy neck. And there was all these different kind of terms and it made me feel as I'm approaching 40 in the next few years, you know, I was like, I'm going to be, you know, they're actually addressing kind of over 40s, over 50s, you know, with this kind of negative terminology. So in other words, yeah, you kind of. The message I got was you've kind of hit your peak now. You need to desperately try and find way to make sure that doesn't look visible.

Yes.

And maybe, I mean I'd be interested to find your opinion on this. But maybe women who are over 40, over 50, over 60, aren't necessarily looking for products that are going to make their wrinkles look better, but maybe address kind of the differing needs of their skin.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's something we looked at in quite some depth in the report. And in the first report, the way that I did the report was to the research was based on in depth interviews with women aged and I think My youngest was 45. Going up to. Well, I had one who was 88, which was great because you know, brands forget that there are consumers who are much older and you know, you don't Just fall off your perch and stop using products. You still need products. And actually the sort of products you need are completely different to the products of a younger person. But anyway, come back to what you were saying. What I found really fascinating was that there was not one person that I spoke to who talked about getting rid of lines or wrinkles or wanted to achieve young looking skin. So there was, if you like an acceptance that, you know, as you get older, you know, you look in the mirror and you see what you see and then, you know, no cosmetic is going to change that. If you have cosmetic procedures, now that's a different thing. If you have facelift, well, okay, obviously you can get rid of some of the things which you just mentioned. But so what are women actually looking for over the age of 45? And I think that also let's just get away from the idea of over 45. Oh, come on. You know, if you're 45, you're going to have very different needs to woman in her 60s who's 75. So that's an important thing that the brands I think need to start addressing more clearly and don't just sort of disrespectfully say the over 50s or whatever because. Yeah, anyway, so what do they look for? I think, and based on the research, what they're looking for is first and foremost for their skin to feel comfortable. Because as you get older, your skin gets drier, hormonal changes will affect the look, the feel, the texture of your skin and sometimes, you know, and in many cases sensitivity issues start to arise. So it's about feeling comfortable. So when you put something on that, it's that gorgeous feeling of feeling deeply hydrated and just feel good in your skin. I think that's a lovely, lovely expression. They also want their skin to look healthy and that's, that's also good. Even healthy looking skin at any age you can be 90 and have healthy looking skin, you know. Yes. Just because it's wrinkled. Yeah. Okay. Goes with the age, doesn't it? Yes. And they want to be glowing. Now these are all, these are terms which are very, very prevalent in beauty today. But the brands are tending to use, you know, healthy glowing looking skin, etc. That gets applied to much younger consumers. Older consumers also want that, but they want it slightly differently.

Yeah, so that doesn't seem to be addressing that at the moment like you're saying.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and they also said that they, one of the respondents said that she felt it was unrealistic to expect that cosmetics will change her appearance. And I think that is something quite prevalent, really. Okay. I think makeup, which is much more a visible thing, you know, can you put lipstick on? And actually it can make quite a difference just by putting lipstick on. But certainly the use of cosmetics, it's more to do with how you feel rather than how you look.

Yeah.

You see what I mean?

Yes.

Yeah. So that was, you know, what came out in the first report. Then in the second report we had, so the next report, we actually called older women in beauty the golden opportunity. Because I felt we, you know, I wanted to also start being more positive, you know, so the forgotten demographic was slightly on the negative side, but the golden opportunity, you know, it is a fantastic opportunity. And so firstly, the thing that we wanted to bring out was the fact that the. So, so many women over 45 are still using products. Let's, you know, realise that. So I just want to give you one statistic which is, again, I've taken it where you break down 45 to 54s, 55 to 64s and 65 pluses. So daily usage of cosmetics. So for facial skincare, 62% of 45 to 54s use skin care on a daily basis, rises to 75% amongst 55 to 64s and then dips back a little bit to 60%. 60% of the 65 pluses. And when you compare that to all the other categories like eye makeup, face makeup, lips, body care, shampoo, conditioner, it's way ahead. So skincare is the number one priority for older women. And actually I could have done it for the younger demographics as well and I'm sure it would show a very similar picture. The point being that just because you're older, you don't stop using products. Yeah. If anything, there's this indication that maybe you start using them a bit more.

Yeah, for different reasons.

Yeah, for different reasons. So I thought that was definitely something worth looking at. Do you mind if I just talk a bit about what older women would like from products?

Yeah, that would be very interesting, actually.

So we had a beauty product wish list for women over 45 and they were allowed to give multiple responses on this. So makeup as well as skincare. Because I know that skincare is probably the, you know, obviously the key one, but. So for example. Well, I mean, you know, moisturisers that make my skin feel comfortable was one of the top priorities. 45% of respondents said that's what they wanted. Mascaras that make short lashes longer. Because as you get older, your lashes become Sort of short and stumpy. So lipstick that stays put on pale lips. So, you know, as you get older, one of the things that happens is that, you know, you lose pigment from your hair, from your. Not always from your eyebrows, but, you know, certainly, you know, the skin tone often goes paler. The skin, the lips go paler. So that's important. Hand cream that disguises veins, wrinkles and dark spots. Interesting. You know what they say that your hands and your neck are the big giveaways of age. So, you know, I think that, you know, there's been probably not enough focus on really good hand creams, you know, for consumers, because it's always been about, you know, moisturization, but now it's becoming a little bit more sophisticated and under eye concealers that stay put. Okay, that's another thing with concealers can sometimes go very sort of flaky and go into the creases and, you know, okay, older women accept that they have these wrinkles and creases, etc. But it doesn't mean to say that they want to emphasize them. Far from it. They probably want to, you know, just make them look a bit better, a bit more glowy around your eyes. Do you know what I mean? So I thought that was really, you know, quite. Quite insightful, really, and also an indication of what perhaps older women feel there should be more of, but there isn't enough of.

Yeah, it's an interesting area. And I'm thinking we probably veer slightly into the political with this in a way, because there's been a lot of kind of, you know, women's campaigners that have said, you know, once you hit a certain point, women are like, you know, well, you know, you've done whatever and you've reached this age, so you sort of, you know, almost ignored. And that happens on different levels within society, but it also happens within the beauty industry. You know, interestingly, obviously women as consumers have a lot of power, you know, in their, say, the under 40s. And then it almost, you know, sort of maybe people are thinking, you know, once 45 hits that you're sort of, maybe not in that kind of, you know, you don't have as much agency as you have, which is obviously completely untrue. I remember a couple of years ago, I went to a woman's retreat and there was women of all different ages there. And the women who were in their 60s and 70s were often the most vibrant and creative. They'd started new businesses, they had started new career paths. They had, you know, there was a lot of change going on in their lives. And, and so you've got women who are still earning money, who still have market power, but maybe don't have the products and things that they need available to them at those ages, but they're still living very vibrant and colorful lives.

Yeah. So the industry really is still, I think, largely out of step with that because most of the advertising and positioning and promotion of beauty products is aimed at that younger demographic. I mean, we're not talking about it today, but this enormous trend of which has been so important for the beauty industry, which is K beauty, so that is, you know, coming these very, very innovative products coming from Asia. I mean, the demographic there is incredibly young. You're talking about, you know, girls in their teens and early 20s who are using, you know, up to like 15 different products to achieve all this, you know, pearlescent looking skin and all the rest of it. And you know, for a woman in sort of 40s, 50s, 60s, I mean, it's just doesn't at all. And so, but because it's such a big trend and brands see the potential of fast growth, they go for the youth because it's always with youth you have an association of vibrancy, excitement, experimental and all that stuff. Whereas older people still have this sort of stereotype of being slightly staid, loyal to their products, not interested in change. It's actually. You just said it, you know, you've seen it with your own eyes. It's not true.

No.

Okay. We don't necessarily want to sort of slap on 15 different products, but at the same time, you know, there's a big, big market out there and it's just waiting to be tapped, if you like. Yeah.

Women are just waiting to be heard or listened to, which I suppose is another.

Which I think this. Yeah, listen to the older. Listen to us because, you know, we are important. We've also got a lot of money. We've got more disposable income then I mean, very unfortunately, you know, the millennials are really finding it very, very tough. Yeah. In a number of ways. You know, economic considerations aside, you know, but for older so called baby boomers who have supposedly had it all and you know, have more disposable income and they still want to spend it, they want to spend on, you know, products which make them feel and look great. So. Yeah, yeah.

And I suppose a lot of women, maybe someone, some of them might have retired or they've got a career change, so, you know, they're in a different, they might be in a different, you Know, sector and that kind of individual sector might have, you know, different skin care needs. Like, I think there's a lot of niche, probably markets that could target older women. Like for instance, I, on that retreat I went to, there was a lot of people who had, you know, suddenly changed career paths and had specialized in like horticulture and garden design and stuff like that. And they were looking, yeah, and they were looking for things that, you know, for their hands that might address things like veins and stuff, but also, you know, address these other things that they needed. And it's something that we talked about quite a lot actually. We had a whole discussion about that.

And things like this. As we both know, there's a big trend also for anti pollution products. And again, if you look at the sort of targeting of the products which are in that sector, they don't really talk about, you know, older people or I mean, it's a difficult one. I do have to say that I struggle with this whole targeting thing because should a brand actually say, you know, this is a line for older women or for women over 60 or whatever, I think that that is potentially alienating because, you know, we don't necessarily want to be pigeonholed into an age group even though we are in that age group. Do you know what I mean? So, and some of the big companies have done it. I mean, certainly Boots, they, I don't know where they're stored at the moment, but they certainly went through a phase when all their different skincare ranges were, you know, you could go on the website, you could see that it would be, you know, sort of like 25 to 40 year old, et cetera, et cetera, you know, and then there are other skincare ranges which are, you know, more democratic if you like. And don't say, oh, this is suitable for young skin versus old skin, but it still has to be relevant. I think that's the thing, it's how you make it relevant and don't alienate certain demographics by having a model who is obviously, you know, a certain age. So as I say, it's something which I struggle with and I'm sure it's something that the brands struggle with as well because, you know, they don't necessarily want to be seen as generalists. They want to be seen as going for a particular sector, but in doing so, inevitably, you know, they tend to dismiss great swathes of the population and it's usually the older women who tend to get left out.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, as we've seen in the Beauty industry over, say, maybe the past five years, where body positivity and, you know, issues around. I'm trying to expand, you know, so, you know, like, I think Dove did that quite famous campaign, didn't they, with women of all different shapes, sizes, women with different kind of skin tones, you know, looking at a more kind of inclusive model. And even, you know, Rihanna launched Fenty, which, you know, had hundreds of skin tones. So they're looking at this slightly more inclusive model, but the older women are still sort of slightly on the periphery of that.

Periphery of that. I mean, I think, you know, those two examples are really great ones, and I think that let's just, you know, congratulate Dove on what they've done, because they've been actually doing it for quite some time. Can't remember the name of the campaign now.

Love the skin you're in.

Yeah. But that's actually evolved from something, you know, 10, 15 years ago, which was all about. I remember the very first one they did actually, was absolutely wonderful. They did a series of ordinary women of different ages with different. You know, they all look very, very different in terms of skin tone. There was one who had, you know, loads of freckles, and the whole thing was to show how beautiful they were. And one of the models was a woman who was in her 90s, and she just looked fantastic and she was beaming into the camera and she just looked. She glowed. She absolutely glowed. And you looked at her and thought, that's what I want to look like when I'm 93, you know, and that's what it's about, really, isn't it?

So, yeah, it's interesting that those things have been around and, like, if you're on Facebook a lot, like I am at the moment, for work, you often see these videos of older people doing extraordinary, well, respectful, you know, example.

Do you know what I.

Resentful? Yes. Yes.

With her big glasses and everything. I mean, you know, she kind of says, I don't really care, you know, anymore. And so she looks unbelievable and quite outrageous in the colour she uses and the big glasses. You know, she has her wrinkles fully on display. Do you look at those wrinkles? You're not drawn to the wrinkles. You're drawn to the very vibrant personality that she clearly is.

Yeah. So all of those kind of memes going around. Like, I saw someone who was approaching 100, doing yoga, who was obviously living a very vibrant life, someone who had taken up bodybuilding at, say, 75, I think they were, and obviously had a very active and vibrant life. So all those things hopefully are working towards the idea that once you hit a certain age, you don't suddenly just stop doing everything and kind of are in your armchair, you know, watching soaps all day. You know, there are still a lot of things going on in your life, and maybe the industry needs to catch up on that a little bit and kind of remove some of those old stereotypes.

Probably about four or five years ago, maybe even longer, one of the in cosmetics marketing trends presentations, we had a futurologist, and her name's Antoinette Van den Berg. She runs a company called Future Touch. And it's very, very interesting to see her predictions and see how they play out over the years. And I remember very strongly sitting in that presentation as she was talking about how, you know, the industry needed to change and the sort of throwaway line was, it will be cool to be old. And everybody sort of tittered in the audience because, you know, you sort of think, why would it ever be cool to be old? But, you know, she wanted to say that, you know, people, that women and men will celebrate the way that they are and the years of experience and wisdom they can bring to age. And it really doesn't matter that they have the wrinkles. If they feel and behave in a very vibrant, energetic way, then that's to be celebrated. So I thought, that's great.

Yeah. I mean, we could talk for ages about this topic. I know, I know in our community, people feel so passionately about this very topic, and I hope that they've got something useful from our conversation. But one other thing that I did want to talk about in this interview, and that you've written quite a lot on as well, is the male grooming industry, which, again, is another slightly political, can veer into the kind of political or controversial. And I did a podcast recently with Josh from the Regal Gentleman, and we talked about, you know, some of these issues and about how, you know, at one point, the male grooming industry was seen as slightly laughable. You know, well, it's not really for men, it's for women. And how that's kind of evolved over the past few years. And I know we talked about how it hasn't kind of grown as massively as some people had predicted, maybe, and I'd like to get your thoughts on that, actually. I mean, because I read a really interesting blog of yours, and I can't remember which one it was, but you said, are we having the right conversations with men about grooming? And so I'd just like you to talk A little bit about your research into that area as well.

Yeah. Okay. Well actually, let's just roll it right back to would you believe 1986, when I sat in a presentation for a new men's grooming range called Insignia. Oh yes. Maybe some of your listeners will have heard of it, but it was, you know, really groundbreaking. There were no skincare, but it was called a vertically integrated skincare range. So in other words, there was shampoo, there was a aftershave, there was a deodorant, body spray. There wouldn't have been anything else, there wouldn't have been body creams or anything like that. But you know, there was, it was an interesting concept at the time.

Did they do soap on a rope?

That's even further back mandate? I think it was, yes, soap on a rope. Go. I mean, let's not go there. So what was really interesting about that presentation and we all got very, very excited because we said, this is it, you know, the men's grooming revolution starts here. And we sort of waited and Insignia was, you know, it was, it did okay. It was, you know, did reasonably well. But, you know, nothing much happened because they were the only ones. And I think that going back to 1986, there were really only probably a handful of brands on the market that were targeting men and they were mainly fragrance based, so aftershave type products and there wasn't really very much else. And deodorants, there's always been aftershave and deodorant and of course shaving, let's not forget shaving.

Yes, massive.

And nobody really did very much for years and years. And yet every so often there'd be a launch and then there'd be this sort of all this hoo ha about, you know, it's going to be the biggest thing and you know, the fantastic opportunity, etc. And it just has never really taken off in that way. Actually, if you were to look at the long term trends, sales trends, you'd find that, yes, the men's grooming market has actually grown a lot. It's just that when you look at it in comparison to other beauty categories which are more female orientated, you know, it's still very, very small. So that's why brands still feel that they, you know, there's so much to be gained. But the real problem with it is that most of the brands have come out with a very stereotypical four men stance. You know, dark blue, silver or black packaging that was very much the sort of standard for men's products. And you Know, with product names which were all about, you know, masculinity and about, you know, the macho and all the rest of it. And so we went through a phase of the metrosexual male. I don't know whether you remember it. And David Beckham was very much associated with that. That was like 90s. And at one time he walked around in a sari and pink nail polish. And that was meant to be the sort of the. The pinnacle of, you know, the way that men were going to sort of behave. But of course they. They didn't. So we just sort of continued on. And the retailers also had their part to play because they never really, I think, took that whole area seriously. So you'd find in a retailer, in the big retailer of beauty products, cosmetics and toiletries is that, you know, there'd be the men's section and it'd be quite small and it would be all about Gillette, who were big because shaving. And then there'd be links, Gillette and Lynx and then there'd be maybe a couple of others. L' Oreal came in and they've been, I have to say, you know, very good at trying to break down some of these barriers with their men expert range and got some fantastic products there and also some great role models. Older men, they used you know, in their whole sort of, you know, offer. But at the same time, you know, it just didn't have that same. It just almost like something was holding it back. And so about 18 months ago, I did a joint project actually with a design company called Two by Two and it was to put together a report on men's. Well, we've got to be careful, you know. Grooming. Is that the right terminology? I mean, you know, a bit like anti aging, you know, do mental think that they're sort of. Grooming has terrible connotations these days, you know, what do we call it? So that's a bit of an issue. But anyway, so the report was called Male Grooming, Beauty's Final Frontier, which is quite an interesting one because really what we wanted to do was to explore where the men's market is at the moment, which is in a good place. It's probably one of the faster growing of all the beauty categories. But there are still areas where, you know, men just don't connect, you know, for whatever reason. And I mean, skincare is a good example. So men's skincare has been growing very well, but it's still quite niche. And the products are again, they. Most of them tend to have that sort of male. There's some sort of masculinity associated with them. And a lot of men, you know, they actually going back to anti aging. You know, what do older women want? They want skin that makes their, they want skincare that makes their skin feel comfortable. Well, I think, you know, surely that's a prerequisite for anybody actually, regardless of age or gender really. So that's an interesting point. Sorry, I forgot your question now.

Well, we were just talking about the market and why it kind of hasn't grown as we think it should and if we're having the right conversations with men about beauty. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. Like why is it called male grooming rather than, you know, male beauty or male skin? And it's interesting you were talking about the products and things because I was speaking to someone the other day and he said, why can't I get a facial oil for men? Like just, you know, he was talking about in the major retailers and I'm sure they exist in smaller or like individual brand websites. But he was like, I just want, want to go somewhere and get a facial oil. But there doesn't seem to be that possibility for men at the moment.

Well, again, it depends on whether you see men are being conditioned to look for products which are for men. There are many, many fantastic products out there which are not necessarily for women or for men. And this whole. So we get into the subject of, you know, gender neutral territory and one of the. A really good example of that is. Well, there's Niod, NIOD Skin Care and the ordinary. It's the makeup company and the products, you know, they look very, almost as if they've come out of a pharmacy, that pharmaceutical look about them. So they don't have any overt feminine signals in terms of the font or the colour of the packaging or whatever. And they're not saying that this is for women or for, you know, the sort of gender specific issues that, you know, individuals might have. So for example, and I'm talking off the top of my head here, but there will definitely be oils within the range that would be perfectly suitable for men or for women. So it's a question really of, you know, where to look and you know, esops another one. I don't know whether you're familiar with it.

Yes. Yeah, they've got very neutral packaging and.

Also I know I've got several people in my sort of family and close circle who use Kiehl's products.

Yeah.

And Kiehl's is Again, it's. If somebody was to say, oh, I use Kiehl's and they're a man or they were a woman, they wouldn't sort of think, oh yeah, a man's product or that's a woman's product. It's. They've really. I think that's probably going to be the way forward. Yeah.

I mean, definitely at. In cosmetics, they had gender neutral products on the trend table at the Mintel section. And when we did our podcast about trends, we thought that that would be a key thing emerging where because, you know, women as well sometimes are just so tired of being marketed out with these pink kind of fluffy things. Sometimes you just want to be able to have.

Yeah.

You know, something that's not so binary, you know.

Absolutely. Well, Will King, who was the founder of King of Shaves. Yes, he's always very good value for, you know, coming up with really interesting things. He. So this is actually, I'm reading straight out of the report here. So he challenges the need for gender led male skincare products. And he said typically products are gender marketed if they are worn by or displayed on the individual, hence the focus on women in cosmetics, whereas moisturizers for men work equally well for women. My wife swears by the latest king of Shaves SPF 15 moisturizer. So, yeah, I mean it's. And they. Our sort of comment was really to say that perhaps it's time to embrace product fluidity, not just gender fluidity, to create propositions with crossover that appeal to female and male users alike.

Yeah, I think that's a very interesting point because it probably ties into also the drive for sustainability and less consumption. And I was having a chat with someone the other day and I said, you know what I would love is something that I could take on holiday or wherever because I'm out and about quite a lot that I can use, my husband can use and my kids could use. If we could have one thing, you know, like one moisturizer that we could just have, that would make my day because then I'm not trying to buy, you know, this, you know, we're not trying to buy all these separate things. We can have one thing that we could all just take and use. Yeah, I think. And obviously that ties into ideas around consumption.

Yeah, it's again, it's, it's another very big subject. And I just feel that, you know, the work that, you know, those of us in the industry who are either commentating or analyzing and other people who are actually bringing out the products we're really starting to move the conversation forward. And I think that's the important thing is to actually start this conversation and to make it relevant and to make brands and also retailers just start to think a little bit differently and, you know, that cliche thinking outside the box. But yeah, it's absolutely right because we can't keep doing things the way that we always have done. The consumers are different. Let's look at, you know, today's men. I mean, young men particularly are, I would say, as a group, they are so much more actually informed and they're already using products. I mean, you know, I remember, you know, 30, 40 years ago, a young man would be using. Well, if he wasn't shaving yet, then, you know, it would just be links.

Yeah, deodorant. That was it.

But what's interesting is also the way that brands like Lynx, which has been hugely successful, is starting to change as well, because it always used to have that really very overt laddish image, which is completely out of step with the whole me too stuff which is going on. And they're now changing that as well. And it's becoming much softer and much more. Yeah, I think they still have the humour there, but, you know, they've taken out that, you know, sort of girls draped over Lamborghini type, you know.

Yes. That more kind of. Yeah, we're starting to question.

Relevant to. Because, you know, young people, young men today, I mean, they. Most of them probably just cringe if they were seen, were to see something like that, you know, so it was.

An interesting thing because I was when in the previous podcast with the guys from Regal Gentlemen, they were saying they think the next big thing for men is male makeup.

Right, okay.

And I thought that was quite an interesting, interesting topic because say that 10 years ago and people would have been like, what?

But I think that it is starting now. Much more agreeing. It's. Yeah, again, it's. I have to sort of give myself a bit of a wry laugh because it's something which has been, you know, on the verge of happening for the last sort of 30 years, men's makeup. And, you know, there's been various attempts of. There was a Jean Paul Gaultier came out with some sort of concealers and something lip, you know, tinted lip balms or whatever some years ago. Tom Ford has a range, but actually there is a growing acceptability for products which are not described as lipsticks, foundations, you know, eyeshadows. Yeah, Terminology is absolutely key here. And don't call it makeup, call it, you know, find A new term. I mean, male enhancement has been sort of used, but not happy about that. Yeah, you know, I mean, makeup is, you know, if I were to say to my husband, you know, would you wear makeup? I mean, he would absolutely, you know, just throw his hands up in horror. But, yeah, he might. I mean, he. I know that he uses certain products which could be deemed as being makeup.

Yeah, yeah.

Not mascara, but, you know, things like a bit of a concealer for, you know, under eyes and things. Oh, yeah. Or something along those lines.

Why not? Yeah, that's what I think.

Yeah. So I think that's definitely an area which has got huge, huge potential, but it's got. There's a taboo there, and it just needs to be made more accessible. And again, when we just bringing a comment out of the report, how about finding some really, really relevant role models of, you know, believable role models of men who, you know, where you would look at them and you wouldn't have no idea that they're wearing makeup, but they look fantastic. And they're looking fantastic, obviously, because they are. Because they're enhancing their looks with, you know, whatever the products might be.

So, yeah, it's interesting because I guess we have had, like, the David Beckhams and the David Gandies who have male, you know, to use that awful term, male grooming kind of on the map, because I remember when. It was years ago when David Beckham was. Was like, you know, I get regular manicures, and, you know, people are like, oh, my God, he gets manicures. But why not?

And it is actually much more commonplace, a manicure. I mean, I've spoken to beauty therapists when having my own manicures, and they often say, oh, yeah, we get men in. Yeah, we definitely get men in. I mean, you know, they're looking for. Not necessarily to have color on their nails, but they need to have their nails sort of knocked into shape and, you know, made less, you know, your cuticles peel off and you've got very dry, you know, nails that flake and break and all the rest of it. Well, you know, why wouldn't you have a manicure?

Yeah.

Men have these problems as well as women.

Exactly. It's been such a fascinating conversation because I think that we've discussed several taboos in this podcast. You know, the taboo around women and age.

Yeah.

Which is a big thing. I mean, we've talked about the beauty market, but, you know, there's a whole thing. And we've touched on men and beauty and how, you know, that. That can often tie in. And I know that the guys from Regal Gentlemen have said this as well. You know, there's been this real taboo about men taking care of themselves and, you know, self care for men, which has often, you know, we've stuck in, you know, in the past, say, 30, 40 years, these rigid stereotypes about men a certain way and women being a certain way. And that's starting slowly, maybe to show some cracks.

Yes, definitely. I think so. And I think that the winners will be the. The ones who see how to help in it. I wouldn't say I don't like the word exploit, but help to make the most of these changes and come up with relevant solutions, really, for whatever issue they may be addressing or needing to address.

Yeah, I like that. Offer help, offer guidance. Yeah. Talk about themselves, maybe in their journey and, you know, relate to people who are doing something.

Yeah, people relate more to stories. I mean, that's another thing, you know, talking about authenticity and a product story that somebody will relate much more to somebody who can talk to them and say, look, you know, I know how you feel about this because I've been through this myself. And, you know, you're more likely to then feel that empathy and buy into what they are telling you.

Yeah.

Selling you. Yeah, more like, let's be honest about this. There is a commercial side to all of this, of course.

Yeah. Well, it's been absolutely lovely to have you with us, Imogen. It's been so interesting to talk about all of these subjects and to all the listeners. I will, of course, include all of Imogen's details in the show notes so you'll be able to find her website and her reports and everything. And I just wanted to say thank you again for joining us.

Well, thank you. I've really enjoyed it. And it's just always, I find amazing how, you know, through these conversations, just stuff comes rolling out. And as I say, as you said, I think it'll be great if people can actually take something away from our conversation, because I have. So thank you.

Made me think about a whole load of other podcast topics, actually.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, bring it on.

Thanks, Imogen.

Okay, thank you.

Thanks so much to Imogen for joining us on the podcast. I really appreciated her time and I really enjoyed listening to what she had to say. If you're interested in connecting with us at Formula Botanica, you can head over to our website, formulabotanica.com and check out our sample class. You can also connect with us on social media, ormulabatanica on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Thanks again for listening.

Sam.