EP125. 'Refill, return, repeat' with Beauty Kitchen

I've been exploring the concept of refillable beauty on the podcast this year and it's been fascinating looking at the different refilling schemes that brands have created around the world. Now, in previous episodes we've looked at a natural hair care brand using zero waste stores to sell their formulations, as well as a natural skincare brand selling their formulations in bulk directly to customers with free returns on their packaging. And today I'm excited to explore the most innovative refill scheme I've seen so far. A brand that has created its own refill bottles and refill stations which will not only be used for their own skincare formulations, but which are also being rolled out for some of the beauty giants. I can picture a future where we take our empty cosmetic packaging back to the stores, either to the local refilling station or simply to give back the cleaning to stock up on our own conditioners and lotions and serums. It would require a complete rethink of how we live and how we shop, but it's going to be a necessity if we want the beauty industry to become as circular as possible. I think it's a really exciting concept and it helps us move away from this take, make, dispose model that the beauty industry is based on. But what's actually involved in designing, building, rolling out refilling stations, refillable packaging? Well, you're in luck because I have exactly the right person to talk to on the podcast today. Settle in to join me for a fascinating interview with Joe Chidley, co founder of RiRi and Beauty Kitchen. And this is Jo's second time on this podcast actually, as she originally came on as one of our first ever guests, I think back in 2018 to talk about her inspirational journey in entrepreneurship and I am thrilled to welcome her back again. She's an absolute powerhouse and we're all so lucky to have her with us. So settle in for an episode that I promise will leave you feeling totally inspired. Welcome to Green Beauty Conversations, the podcast that challenges you to think about how you buy, use, make or sell your green beauty formulations. In my weekly episodes, I explore the sustainability of the beauty industry and encourage you to join me in changing this industry for the better. I'm your host, Lorraine Dallmeyer. I'm a chartered environmentalist, biologist and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school Formula Botanica. We have thousands and thousands of students in over 180 countries around the world who study with us to become organic formulators and entrepreneurs. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com to try our free online formulation course. And if you want to be the first person to know what's happening in green beauty, make sure you subscribe to this podcast in your favourite podcast app. So in today's episode I'm joined by Joe Chidley, a circular economy expert, chemist, herbal botanist and co founder of Beauty Kitchen, the highest scoring B corp in the UK beauty industry. Jo has set out to change the face of the beauty industry by creating the most effective, most natural, most sustainable beauty products in the world. And she's championing a reuse revolution through sustainable innovation by implementing cradle to cradle design into Beauty Kitchen's secular approach. And Jo has been instrumental in developing the world's first closed loop system for beauty packaging through the groundbreaking re reprogram and refill stations. Hi Jo, welcome back to the podcast. It is so lovely to have you again on this podcast. How are you doing today?

I'm doing great and thanks for inviting me back. As you know, or hopefully I will be able to give you a bit of an update. There is so much that's happened in a relatively short space of time, but there's still so much to do.

There always is and you are such a pioneer in sustainable beauty. So I'm thrilled you're here. So can you tell our listeners more about you and your background and the two organizations that you now run?

I just almost wanted to do a little bit of a pitch as well. So just to set the scene really of why this is so important. Not just to me, it should be important to everyone. So the FMCG industry, which the personal care industry and the beauty industry sit within, creates over 161 million tons of plastic packaging every year. And sadly, we know that most of this isn't recycled for one reason or another. The global packaging industry is worth $1 trillion annually. 99% is single use and the 1% of reusable packaging just isn't smart and it isn't trackable. So when you say those figures, it doesn't matter how to comprehend them, what it's saying is that you have as an entrepreneur within beauty, and particularly within skincare, you're dealing with a $1 trillion industry of packaging and they don't create things for you to be able to put your products into reuse. So I almost just wanted to set the scene that to give people some reassurance and hope that you might want to be really sustainable and, and have your packaging that's reusable, refillable. But you're up against an industry that hasn't really changed that much in 50 years. It's not that I don't want people to try, I, I really, really do. But I just want to say that there's lots of moving parts and this is now a global, you know, the personal care industry has been part of globalization for the past. It will now be 30 years. And as we know, and I'm old enough to know that I didn't used to buy my beauty products online because there was no such thing as online or there was no such thing as social media. And the world has changed very differently and it's very fast paced. But what happens is lots of these traditional industries and lots of that infrastructure doesn't change. It just goes with the trends and stays where it can make profit in a very linear fashion. And for me, that really fascinates me. Hi, I'm Jo Chidley. I'm the founder of beauty kitchen and RiRi, which is a reusable packaging system. Beauty Kitchen was born from the fact that I'm a chemist, I'm a botanist, but I've just always really fascinated about skincare and, you know, some of my heroes and mentors that are, you know, mentors of our business at the moment, you know, are businesses like Lush, where you're trying to kind of stand out and do something different. And I know a lot of the guys that come to Formula Botanica is because they've got this passion to do something that they feel is a gap, but something really close to their heart and something that's different. One of the things that I started with was blue glass. So our facial oil, the facial oil that I love, is in blue glass. Now, blue glass, most people don't know, is very un. Environmentally friendly, yet it's beautiful, it does lots of beautiful things. But to get it to being a glass piece of packaging is not great. Yes. And then what happens is you put it in the recycling bin, but it doesn't get recycled. So unless there's a specialist blue glass recycling, which no council in the UK does, it doesn't get recycled. It's so sad. Yeah. And it's expensive. I mean, it's the most expensive, you know, piece of packaging that you can buy for your skin care in your business. And I just thought, I don't understand why we're not reusing this. And that's really where the idea. And I know that we. I'm hoping that there's lots of others that are listening to this, thinking. I've been thinking the same thing. So we then started with that, how can we then create this packaging to be reusable and what we didn't realize in my naivety, however, sometimes being naive, you then ask really curious questions and that's really helpful because you're coming at it from a different angle. You're going into a packaging industry and you're asking questions that they've never been asked before. And that's where really what was born. So what that is, it's a borrow anywhere, return anywhere, reuse anywhere alternative to single use packaging. It's a whole system approach using smart reusable packaging that removes the barriers to retailers, brands and consumers who want to participate in the circular economy with refill on the go and return on the go. And that's what we did. We couldn't just put in reusable packaging for our products because that then means there's no scale. So if we only does it for beauty kitchen products, we are, okay, we are much bigger than we were, but we're still very small in terms of the numbers of making the impact for sustainability. So if I think of Unilever, one of the biggest personal care companies in the world. Yeah. I don't know how many billions of pieces of packaging they use every year, but it's a lot. What I do know is this is available for everyone, is that their net zero targets, 48% of their emissions comes from packaging. Yeah. So I can start with some data points. And that for me just blew my mind. I thought, how can we try and create the infrastructure so that anybody, any brand, you know, a retailer could access reusable packaging? And that's, that's me.

What I love the most in that pitch, actually, Joe, was that first, before you even introduced yourself, you first, first of all went straight into the sustainability argument. And I think that sums you up perfectly because you are so passionate about this. You're doing amazing work. I don't know how you find the time to sleep because not only do you have a successful beauty brand, but you've also started riri. And that's obviously what we want to focus on today. So let's talk through how it all works step by step and break it down. So from what I understand, having looked at the website and obviously followed you for many years, it all starts with the rebottle. So how does that work and how hard has that been to set up the bottle?

And when we say bottle, that could be a glass bottle, an aluminium bottle, a stainless steel bottle, it could be a glass jar, you know, so it's, it's about different pieces of packaging. It's. We just call it the bottle, if you like, just to talk about packaging as a whole. So if we think of packaging at the moment, I don't know how many different types there are, but let's say there's a million different types of packaging out there. Yeah. If we can even standardize that to 100,000, we'd already make a huge difference. And even if we standardize that more to 10,000, it would be even more. And that was the big challenge because every brand and retailer thinks and wants and feels that their packaging is part of their brand. Yes. So that was one of the challenges that we had to. Barriers we had to overcome. The other barriers that we had to overcome with this was in terms of sustainability. So we know that environmental data. So for instance, when I studied chemistry, there was no such thing as environmental management. Yeah, I'm sorry, I am, I am that old, you know, so you didn't. But at the end of the day, the science is still the science, whether you did study environmental management or not. Because it's about waste and any scientist doesn't really like waste. You just don't. It's just not part of who you are. There's so many different things that play a part in these barriers. But unfortunately, LCAs are very specific to a specific product and type and neck size and material, etc. And how it was done. There's also the other parts of, you know, will customers return their empties? Will it be clean enough? What are the cleaning protocols, you know, the rat. All of these barriers or excuses, as I've, I've termed them, we had to think about beforehand because if you are facing into a much larger organization, they are going to challenge you on all of these things and you have to be the problem solver of that. And one of the other questions is, well, why can't we reuse plastic? And if I just close that off, because I'm not going to talk about plastic today much. We want to disrupt the monoculture of plastic. That's really what it is. A monoculture in any situation, you know, anywhere we know is not good. It's about diversity and that's why we're using other materials. Materials. So the, the materials that we use are glass, aluminium and stainless steel. That will depend on the, the product type, it will depend on the formulation, it'll depend on the region as well. So at the moment, we're very UK focused for the moment. We've been, you know, asked outside of the UK but we need to get it right here first. And the bottle is the middle of everything that you do with reuse. You then have to think about all of the elements that how do you do all of those barriers, how do you get people to return it, how do you get return points, how is it accessible, how do you deal with packaging manufacturers, how do you deal with the leasing process? And the list goes on and on. If anybody is looking for more detail and we can, you can, I can send you the link. Lorraine, the World Economic Forum in terms of the future of reusables, which I think came out in 2020, it's a 48 page document. But if you go to page 24 to 28, that's where it's all about reus particular, particularly for our industry. And that's what we had to start with. We started with a bottle, then threw up all of these barriers and questions that had to solve.

I can imagine it sounds very complex. I feel tired just thinking about all the work that you've had to put into this. But I mean your long term vision is obviously that this will be available to any beauty brands who want to use it. Have I understood that correctly?

Yeah, completely. I mean this is if you. What we're doing is rather than buying a single use piece of packaging and when I say single use, it's that you sell it onto a consumer, the consumer uses the contents and then the packaging goes somewhere. You hope that it gets recycled but generally it doesn't get refilled and it doesn't get reused. That's still very niche. And the reason for that is that when you do anything that's circular rather than linear, you have to find a way of getting the returns aspect of anything so that you get the resource back. That's what's being circular is that you send the resource out. The consumer, the retailer, the brand, whoever it is, uses that. But then they send back whatever they don't use. Just in simple terms, if you think about it like that. So you've got to create the infrastructure of how do you get that back? And the challenge is we want convenience, you know, single use and disposability, particularly within our industry. It's just the way that we've done things for a very long time.

Yeah, it's a take, make, dispose model. So let's dive back into riri. Then you've got the rebottle. We talked about that. Lots of different types of packaging involved there. And next, I believe the next step is that you've got a return station that you take your rebottle back to. Have you built any of these stations yet? What's the vision? Are any available yet?

So there's two aspects to RiRi. The first aspect, which is the much smaller scale and it's a marketing tool, is a refill station, which is a refill in store and that's available in 30 stores across the UK from as in Co Op for refill stations. The scalable and the logical aspect to RIRI is the pre fill model. What I mean by pre fill is that the product is on the shelf in a reusable bottle. It's exactly the same as it would be if it was sitting on the shelf in a single use, generally plastic piece of packaging. Yeah. And that's available in 30 stores, but not just Asden Co Op, it's available in Marks and Spencer's as well, and also through Beauty Kitchen, but we'll put that aside for the moment. So the refill in store is. Takes up a lot of space, but it engages the consumer with the fact that they can refill and reuse bottles. But what they're doing is rather than reusing the same bottle because there's a. There's lots of gray areas in why you would either want to do that or not do it. They bring back their empty, they put that in the return bin, if you like, and they take a new bottle which they fill the pre fill, which is just much simpler. And when you're a very busy person, you go into a supermarket or wherever you go and you want to buy the products and you put them in your trolley or you buy them online and that's how we shop at the moment. All we are doing is the change in the customer behavior is they're doing exactly the same. The only thing we are getting them then to do is when they go back for their weekly shop, whether that's, you know, in Marks and Spencer's, they return their empties and that then gets put back in and they then take a new product. So they're not wasting any time, they're not really changing how they shop, they're just buying the same product in a reusable packaging. What then happens is from those return bins we collect the empties, we wash them. And the cleaning protocols that have to be for personal care, believe it or not, are much higher than they need to be for food, which I just think is madness, but that's the way that it is. And what you're getting is you are getting a brand new bottle that's really the cleaning protocols give you a brand new bottle, but your bottle has actually been reused. And this is the thing. A lot of the challenges have come around. A lot of the questions from other brands and retailers is quality control, you know, all of that good stuff. But the cleaning protocols that we have are so high and we worked with Ecolab as a partner. So it's not that we are sitting here as the experts in everything. We have brought the expertise in throughout the infra structure to give that reassurance. The other part is, which we can come on to is with regards to emission targets. So if as a brand you take a reusable piece of packaging, your emissions are reduced by 48% immediately, that then increases with the second use and the third use, it plateaus around the fifth use. Yes, but we can reduce emissions on packaging between 30 and 70%. And that has been academically validated and is currently being validated by one of the big four.

That's amazing. Absolutely amazing. I get it now. I thought that the refill stations were a core part of it, but I understand why you say that's a marketing tool because it's about changing hearts and minds. But presumably there is then also the potential to dispense any liquid into those new bottles that you take, I presume, how have the big brands, I mean, you talked about the co op, Asda, Marks and Spencers. For those of us listening outside of the uk, those fairly big established supermarkets, big brands here in the uk, how have they responded to all of this new technology?

So if I take Asda, which was the first place, ASDA in terms of, in the UK is a family supermarket. So it's, it's about, you know, families who have limited budgets and, you know, they are watching their pricing because, you know, they've got a family to feed. A lot of people thought, well, when it comes to reusables and sustainables, there must be a certain demographic and that probably isn't the ASDA demographic. And actually that's not the data that we got. What we have got from that data from ASDA is that it doesn't matter where you shop, everyone wants to be more sustainable. The challenge that they have is accessibility and convenience. So is it accessible where I generally shop and is it convenient for me to do it? And that's what's interesting is that actually pricing for that consumer was third on the list. Accessibility and convenience came out first and pricing was third. If we then go to Marks and Spencer's and the feedback from the ASDA did It in slightly different ways. So in some of their shops they did it where they have a refill zone. Yeah. So it's a set where you can refill lots of different products. Yeah. In some of their other stores what they did is they did it in aisle, so they did it in category. So if you're looking to fill your laundry liquid, it would be in the laundry. If you want to do personal care, it's in personal care. What they have found is that that people are more likely in when it's in aisle and that's great data to know because the refill zone, you know, people are looking at you, you're going somewhere new, it's different, it's not part of your shop. It's interesting that just small things like that can make the difference in, in how you behave when you're in a supermarket or when you're buying something. With Marks and Spencer's it was only pre filled that was available. It's their own label and it's all of their home care and it's in four stores and it's going into nine stores in the next few weeks. But we're already having discussions about going much bigger, much quicker and into other areas. So there's lots of different data that's come out of this but the convenience and accessibility are the two biggies and this has come from Kantar. So it's not us seeing it, it's an independent data company that's seeing these things.

Yes. And that makes perfect sense and I will be addressing that in my published opinion next week or here on the podcast too because I ran some polls around that. But I won't give the game away yet. Talk me through the cleaning and washing process. Who collects all these bottles? Is that your company that does that or does it the company's that have the pre filled bottles? How does it work?

So there's a couple of different ways and again we're testing different ways. So in Holland and Barrack we do reverse logistics. So in Holland and Barwick when people return their empties, it's collected just alongside their recycling and then it goes back into their empty trucks when they've done deliveries, goes to the distribution centre and comes back up to Scotland or it goes to other washing facilities. If it's direct to consumer then they can use Collect plus which is how you return clothes generally or through Royal Mail. And the other aspect if we look at Marks and Spencer's or some of the other supermarkets is it's a return in store model. We're testing lots of different ways, but we want to use reverse logistics because what you don't want to do is then create another problem in terms of logistics, emissions and all of that stuff. However, you know, we again, as part of the validation on emissions, that's all been taken into consideration. So, you know, we're wanting to make it as easy and as accessible. What we don't do at the moment, but that's something that's in the plan for the future would be an at home model or it would also be part of. If you think of your recycling as part of the council model. So rather than you having recycling boxes, you have a reuse box and all of your reusables go in there. So that's something that's been tested. St Helens I think early next year, which would, which would make it really easy for people.

That's amazing. I love the idea of a reusable. Get into that. And again, it makes it convenient, doesn't it? Which is what you keep saying. So let's come back to the hygiene issues because this is something. When I was talking to our community about this, this came up over and over again. What are the hygiene issues around refills? How do you take care of that?

As an indie brand, we are Cradle to Cradle cert. If people don't know about Cradle to Cradle, if you do a search, there's lots of information around what it is, but that goes into real detail on how you actually create and design your products and also your packaging. And what we do is we use Cradle to cradle principles in all aspects alongside regulatory and legislation from a cleaning protocol perspective. So a lot of the times when you clean stuff, you use detergent. And with Cradle to Cradle principles in mind and as a chemist I know that's not necessary necessarily needed. It's just an added part of a system where it's not necessarily been challenged. So we have actually worked with a couple of. So the cleaning machinery, if you like the bottle washing is of laboratory hospital grade. So we're not using bottle washers or glass washers that you would get in a bar or something. This is laboratory hospital cleaning bottle washers. So we know that the standards that you have to have for that are really high. But the interesting thing is working with the manufacturers of the bottle washers alongside Ecolab and Ecolab are basically the global, you know, washers of everything. I mean they supply all of the big organizations. But what I wanted to do was not use detergent. That's what we've created, we've Created a cleaning protocol where it's heat, its pressure and also steam depending on what the material is and what has been inside the bottle. And this is the key here. So if we think of reuse, that reuse is not something that's new. But reuse before was when we didn't have plastic. When I think of reuse now, what we've got is the ease of being able to leverage digital technology. So each piece of packaging has its own individual code. So we know when it was made, when it was filled, when it was sold, how long it sat on a shelf. We know all of this data and we know everything that's in it. So that when it comes back in. There's a variety of different cleaning protocols depending because if you're washing something that has been oil based, for instance, would be different from something that would be water based. So all of that stuff has been done. But the unique selling point, if you like, of our cleaning protocols is we don't use detergent. Now the other, this is me being me. The next step in that cradle to cradle process is how do you then collect the residue to be able to use that waste product for something else that will begin into 2023. Because, you know, you never stop.

Well, you never stop. This is amazing. Jo, I love what you're doing here. Just for context, I mean, I know you've only really just got going with this. How many bottles are you receiving back at the cleaning station at the moment?

Roughly, we have in terms of reuse, there is lots of different people that are that are doing it, but it's still very niche. And that was why I was saying this $1 trillion annual single use packaging industry and reuse being 1%, there's a group of us that we do meet on a fairly regular basis. So if we talk about Loop, which is part of TerraCycles, so Tom Zaki, you've got Jean, but which is based in France, which, you know, those guys have real experience with independent zero waste stores. But they've also, they were part of the Waitrose refill option, which Catherine Conway, you know, is so big on refill and zero waste. So we have our own community because we know that if we don't share our best practice and what worked and what didn't work. And also you can't do everything, you know, that's not what you're set up for. You have to be able to use each other's expertise. You know, I think that's really key in understanding the fact that we are not saying that we are the Google of reuse. We want this to be a reuse community where it is driving scalability not just in the uk, but at a global level. And I've now forgotten what the question was that you asked me.

I was asking you about, just for context, how it's going now. You've just got started in terms of the amount of bottles.

Yeah. So when it comes to data as well. Although RIRI for other brands has only been running. Well, not only, you know, we launched with Unilever in 2020. Beauty Kitchen was running it through Holland and Barrett for two years previous to that. Again, that's one of the big questions. What are the return rates going to be? We put it in quite low. The return rate that we want to achieve is 91%. Yes. Because that 9% is around, you know, if you get something back and it's just not possible to reuse it, it's too dentive, whatever that is, you know, that sits in there. And we then set our initial year saying, if we got 60%, we think we, you know, that would say it's not where we want to be. But that would be enough to say, you're doing the right thing. It's sitting at 81%. It's because people, they just not had the option, you know, and they really want. If you ask 100 people, do you want to be more sustainable? Everyone will say, yes. It's not the right question to ask, but everyone will say, because I'm a good person, why would I not want to be? But changing that into action is different. You need to make that as smooth and as easy as possible. There still needs to be some thought. It's not that, you know, you're walking into this like a zombie and, you know, it just happens. There still needs to be a change, but the change doesn't need to be that hard if brands and retailers, you know, give that option and make it accessible.

Brilliant. I love what you're doing. It's incredible. You're incredible. One final question, then. Well, now I've got two more questions. What's been the response from people? I mean, you've already touched on this a little bit. Obviously, 81% return rate is great, but what sort of feedback have you had from people actually using the bottles and possibly the refilling stations?

We have a feedback loop. So things like. We still have the whole pump debate, the plastic pump debate that every skincare beauty entrepreneur has thought about, especially if they've got sustainability in mind. How do I get rid of These pumps, and don't get me wrong, I love all of the stuff that's happening with bars and solid formats, but people still want to use liquid products. So it's. That's not going to go away, I don't think. You know, this is an example, a live example that happened. We then found, you know, pump, plastic pump, but it doesn't have the metal spring, so it means that it doesn't need to be dismantled to be recycled. Now, we don't ask people to recycle our pumps. We say it's a pump for life. So if you use it in your body wash, take it out, send us the empty back, and then, you know, use the same pump in again. However, if people did recycle it, then it was making it easier for them to do that. What we then found out is that those pumps have been tooled for plastic bottles, not for aluminium bottles, which is what we sent them out in. So it's stuff like that. It's like it's leaking. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Yes. And we then went back round and that's what happened. So though anyone that's in this space will know that you've had those things where you didn't know, you thought you did all the testing and then a customer comes back and you go, oh, okay. So what we have done is we've gone back with the pumps that have the metal spring at the moment, while we're working with the manufacturer to organize tooling for aluminium bottle. That's an example. And that happens all the time. And you'll have heard stories like this before.

It's amazing the little details that you end up having to deal with that you never envisaged in the beginning, but you are forging forward.

And just to add to that, at the end of the day, the customer is part of that community. Sustainability is moving at such a pace that everyone can be involved, even the big companies. If we think of the big accountancy firms, the big consultancy firms, whether that's McKinsey or Accenture, yet they have already said that when it comes to carbon accounting, sustainability accounting, that accounting, that isn't about money. Yeah, it is changing every three months. The iterations of that are every three months. So everyone can be involved in this feedback. And I think that's an opportunity as well. I'm not sitting here saying we've solved everything. You know, give us that feedback because we want to help solve it or at least recognize that that is still a problem completely.

So my final Question for you then is, what's next? What's the vision? Where do you want to take riri?

If I get the chance to come back on the podcast, let's say in two years time, Anytime, Jo, I would love to be able to say, I would love you to say, do you know what? I went to my local store and I really struggled to find plastic. That would be the dream. Yes. That you could go and buy, you know, whether it's your cleanser, your laundry liquid, your almond milk, your normal milk, your orange juice and you. It's in reusables me. That would be the dream. That's what we're aiming for.

Amazing. Well, I look forward to that future and hopefully it won't be that far away. If our listeners want to learn more about you, about Beauty Kitchen, about riri, where should they go?

So the easiest thing is I'm still the only Joe Chidley on LinkedIn. Makes it really easy. And we do have just a static website for RiRi, which will continue to evolve as the business evolves. And Beauty Kitchen is an established indie brand here in the uk. Please, I am a sustainability nerd, so if you have any questions, please come to me and ask. We want the world to just not be a monoculture of plastic. But plastic has given, you know, lots of freedom, particularly to women. But it's, we've let it go rogue. We've not really put our arms around thinking, what does this do? And one of the things is that all of the plastic that's been made so far is still here on this planet. That is worrying. So I think if there's anything that we can do to just change that and make that material stand up to what it gave us in the, in the beginning by thinking through our resources and reuse, then, then, yeah, please contact and ask me those bold questions.

I love it. And I love the fact that you've ended the podcast as you started with a pitch for the world to become more sustainable. And I think that summarises you perfectly with your great claim to fame of the only Jo Chidley on LinkedIn. So, Jo, it's been lovely having you on the podcast. So nice to see you again. Thank you for sharing all of this with us.

No, thank you very much for having me back.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Are you as excited as I am about this concept of refillable and circular packaging for all beauty brands? Did you ever imagine this being rolled out in your country? Please do come and leave us a comment on our social channels as both the Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you. Thank you for joining Jo and I for this latest episode of Gifts Green Beauty Conversations. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please do leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations too. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever your favorite podcast app is and stay tuned for the next episode. Follow Formula Botanica Formula Botanica on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter or LinkedIn and come follow me too. Lorraine Dharmeyer As I always share the latest from the podcast and share my thoughts on green and sustainable beauty, visit our website@formulabotanica.com and sign up for our free online formulation course today.