EP133. Beauty in the metaverse

I'm sure you, just like me, have been bombarded with news articles and social media posts about the Metaverse since it burst onto the scene in recent years. And if you're anything like me, you've just sat here going, what on earth is this and why do I need it in my life? And then all of the articles started pouring in from the beauty industry. All of a sudden the big brands were talking about having a digital presence beyond a website and everyone was talking about non fungible tokens, NFTs, and. And then the conversation moved on to a futuristic visualization of the Internet lovingly called Web3. But what does this mean for beauty? Surely you need a physical body with physical skin and hair in order to embrace beauty products. Do any of us intend to become avatars of ourselves and buy digital beauty products? Maybe. Well, I decided I had to investigate the Metaverse for the podcast, as not only does this have implications for how we consume beauty, but I also see far reaching implications for the sustainability of beauty. After all, we consume far too much in the normal world, so why should we start consuming digitally as well? I knew I had to bring on an expert to talk me through it. So you're in luck, because today I've got the perfect speaker for you to learn from. Dr. Alex Box is joining me to explain exactly what beauty in the Metaverse is and how we can use it.

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Beauty Conversations, the podcast that challenges you to think about how you buy, use, make or sell your green beauty formulations. In my weekly episodes, I explore the sustainability of the beauty industry and encourage you to join me in changing the beauty industry for the better. I'm your host, Lorraine Dallmeyer. I'm a chartered environmentalist, biologist and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school Formula Botanica. We have thousands and thousands of students in over 180 countries around the world who study with us to become organic beauty formulators and entrepreneurs. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com to try our free online formulation course. And if you want to be the first person to know what's happening in green beauty, make sure you subscribe to this podcast in your favorite podcast app. So in today's episode I'm joined by Dr. Alex Box, who is an internationally renowned artist, identity designer and beauty futuristic. What an incredible job title. Alex has redefined the role of creativity in makeup, in beauty and in identity. And as a pioneer of beauty futurism, her innovative and multidimensional approach has established her as the creator of a new visual language and a Dialogue that exists between the body and movement, artistic expression and scientific inquiry. Alex has collaborated with the world's leading designers such as Issey Miyake, Chanel, Alexander McQueen, Vivienne Westwood, with photographers, with choreographers, with tech developers, and even musicians such as Lady Gaga, Michael Stipe and Robert Smith. Dr. Box also helped shape cutting edge art and fashion magazine King Kong. Evolving the beauty narrative and exploring post human identity and beauty futurism through immersive and creative technology. We're going to explain what all of this means in the podcast. Alex is pushing boundaries and inspiring others to do the same. Hi Alex, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

I'm good, thank you. Yes, very well.

Well, I am so excited that you're here. This is a fascinating topic. I've really wanted to explore this for a long time now. I tried to do justice to your incredible bio in my intro, but I'm sure some of the concepts such as beauty futurism or post human identity are perhaps a little bit beyond most of us at the moment. So can you please share a short overview of who you are and what you do?

Absolutely. Hi. So you said exactly what I do. I'm an identity designer and beauty futurist and doctor Alex Box. And a little bit to explain what that is is really the sort of totality of how we present ourselves as in digital and physical, but how we actually use our body as communicative tools. So I've been looking at body logic and how really our identity is not a binary thing. You know, it's felt, it has multiple prismatic sort of versions. You know, we traverse many selves throughout the day, be it through zoom, be it through our email selves, our phone cells, our digital selves, ourselves that we consider ourselves and, and what our partners and families see. So there's so many ways of presenting and really as we move into the metaverse, you know, instead of just even text based selves, we start to build an identity in the physicality. So I'm very much involved in how we finesse that, the sophistication of that, but also the kind of, you know, what it is to be human and what it is to move into another stage now where we're not just presented by physical bodies, but we've got digital bodies. We've also got expression through immersive identity, which means experience as bodies. So it's the totality of practice around communication and the body being the tool. Wow.

I mean, this is fascinating. These are really big questions and I don't think we'll be able to unpick all of them in the podcast. But before we start to talk really about the beauty industry in the digital world, let's maybe demystify a few terms first, because I know that some of the people listening, much like myself, are not that familiar with some of these concepts. So could you please explain first of all what the metaverse even is?

Well, it's many things because at the moment it's such sort of nascent stages. The metaverse has been a sort of word that's been coined for Web3. So currently we're in Web2, moving into Web3. So Web2 has been very much screen based and based in our digital text language, and it's been very much not an immersive experience. Now we're moving into worlds where we can be present, we can be immersed in experience, we can have digital and physical experiences at the same time. And one, you know, we can present digital fashion, digital beauty. We can have products that are digital first, so they don't even exist in the physical, they're just purely digital. So they've been made for the metaverse, as it were. So what we're talking about, the metaverse, we're talking about stepping into a space that has immersive experience. So you could experience products as an essence, as an experience. You could be inside a happening that imbibes the idea of what a product is without it actually being a purchase in the real world. But then that can also inform the purchase in the real world. So, you know, you can have an experience online or in an immersive environment, either with VR headsets or just by being in a world as an avatar that will directly inform or give a sort of full spectrum experience to what somebody's trying to actually reach you within the physical world. And also you can live online as a presence that is having experiences that are purely digital. So we're sort of talking about it's quite early days, obviously, and what we're seeing and what we're witnessing is very early, almost a bit clunky language, like anything is early doors. So it's, it's come off the back very much of games and gamification of things. And lots of people are very used to gaming, so they understand the language of that, but lots of people aren't. So as before, that very much lived in the gaming world. That kind of gaming experience is now being kind of transcended and into much more of a beginning of a more sophisticated language about how we are online and how we present ourselves. Online and how we maybe buy things, interact and socialize online. So that metaverse space, the idea of the metaverse is this space that is expanding and limitless and is incorporating all those new ways of interacting with products, buying, socializing and being.

That must feel incredibly exciting for you as an artist to have this limitless space to work in. What does that feel like?

It is exciting. I mean, for me, you know, I've realized that I am a sort of dream chaser. You know, I've always wanted to be at the cutting edge of new things because when things haven't fully formed yet, they're very. Everything's possible. The language hasn't been set, the ideas aren't fully formed. So even though it can be quite. You can bumble and make mistakes, there is no bar. You're really free. And I think that as an artist, to be able to start expressing and being able to form new language which will eventually sort of inform and hopefully make better the things that have come before, you know, yes, it is incredibly exciting and, and the limitlessness can be very daunting, like blank page. But it's also gives you a chance to, in a way, there's no gravity, there's no natural lighting, there's no, you know, you have to rethink how you form even just the simplest things like a skin or an object. It's a completely new. A new set of values, new set of challenges. So I do find that very exciting. Yes.

Let's talk a bit about the beauty industry then. How can the beauty industry connect with this limitless metaverse where we're still effectively figuring out what it is and how.

It works, very gently, I think, you know, and playfully and openly experimenting. There is no right and wrong as in the real world. A lot of people's brands and products have been, you know, set from the DNA of heritage for hundreds, well, not hundreds of years. But some have, you know, some people have really established and there is. There is a way of doing things. This, again, a sort of nascent space where people haven't fully formed how things should be yet, but are very focused on it and very excited by it. And there's obviously a lot of eyes on it gives people chance to sort of maybe just flex out and just experiment with the playfulness and also the connection of how people are. They're much more, in a way, they're much more accepting and more able to kind of take time to go through experiences or interact or. Or have something that is. Is a more. They're in their own they're in their own home doing it essentially. So I think it's a bit like zoom as removed that fourth wall of sort of officialness and officiousness. You know, you can see my, my door and you know, things in my house. You've got something that has permeated that little bit of preciousness about this has got to last. This has got to be a thing, you know. So I think that really enabling the playfulness and the exploration, you can actually engage on in a different way that can expand a brand and that can actually give people chance to do something. Very quick turnaround, but also something that will, I would say, kind of bring people into the more the kind of narrative, the heritage or the way that a brand is kind of wanting to connect the customer on a different level of how they interact with the brand. And not just consumer led, you know, it's more experience led that then informs anybody, you know, looking into the products or into the brand heritage.

So what are some examples that beauty brands are doing already? Have you. I mean, I know you've worked and collaborated with quite a few brands. What are some great examples that you've seen out there?

Early on, one of the really great collaborations I did, I've done two stable order collaborations. And I think the first one for me, because it was the first as well, and it was one of the first really big household major brands to go and into the Metaverse. Decentraland, which is essentially an avatar based land that you can walk around as you would walk around any gallery or studio or high street. It's replicated in the digital space Decentraland and they had a Metaverse Fashion Week. In that Fashion week, they had lots of different designers showing their collections, but with something else. So you would be able to be inside the show or you'd be able to walk around and sort of each. Because again, it's experience led. If you walk towards the close, something happened and you got more of an essence and it's gravityless. So you could have things happen that would never happen. You know, it may talk to you or you may be able to wear it and walk around it and put it back and all those things. So there was a sort of a very playful narrative. So when I worked with Estee Lauder, it was also one of the first times that people were talking about wearables. So when you're in these spaces, you connect with a digital wallet. So you can have a digital wallet much like a wallet that you would have in the real world, but with this you're collecting digital tokens or experiences. And this would be called a PO app. So much like if you went to see a band and you would buy the tour T shirt because you were there and it represented that you were there at that time. And it's memorabilia and it's also a reflection point of that experience. In the digital space, like Decentraland or other places that use the NFT blockchain, you can get a digital nft, which is a non fungible token. Again, a bit like a ticket. It would have an activation, it would have a special presence. And this was a wearable aura. So you would go, we went and built this beautiful sort of interactive nighttime repair oscillating bottle that was fantastic. And you went inside and then you watched videos and you saw other people kind of walking around and at touch points of heritage videos about the serum and about the science behind it. But then when you walked up to the bottle immediately your character would interact with the bottle because it stepped into the designated space and you would receive a little message saying, go to pick up your poap, the proof of attendance, the badge, as it were. And you've got this glittering aura that just kind of swept around your body and was around your body for the. For whenever you want to wear it. Like you would put on clothes. So as you walked around, around the land, you had this beautiful glittering aura that followed the bones of your invisible bones of your body. So if your arm swept that way, it swept that way. So it had this. And that's what I designed with them because we were trying to narrate and kind of give the idea of how can you represent a feeling, a texture, a tone, an idea of a substance like nighttime repair without it being an actual serum. What are the words that you use to evoke that product? It'd be glow, it would be luminescence, it would be magic, it would be transformation. So that's where you start to. That's where my art comes in. That's where my, my translation skills come in. Because I immediately see that as something that would be a nebulous, glittering, magical substance, you know. So I work with a product, with the developer to create that, you know, because also mindful that most people are in those spaces are native at game playing and they're picking up of potions and essences is very much in the narrative of gameplay. So it was bringing two worlds together. It was a really special thing because obviously you have that forever. You have that glittery aura forever. People are still wearing it whenever I go into that space, which is fantastic, but also it's a really great way to sort of like start to kind of just begin to explain that narrative of how for brands, how it's so far removed from, you know, customer experience of product. But it's very close to the magic that draws you in to buy a product in the first place. You know, the advertising is the promise, the excitement, the idea. And now you can build that into, you know, an experience. You can experience that excitement or that shine or that and then, you know, step into the narrative more. So it's almost like this kind of, it's quite like perfume, you know, it's almost like you smell something and it makes you feel something and, and this is a kind of physicality to that. So that was a really. I'm very brave for them to do that too I think because they were so such a big brand and they're not a brand that's just digital only and just arrive, you know. So I think the fact that they did that was very, very brave. And it did, obviously it had a huge knock on response and lots of people have been asking me to explain how that happened and what you could do with them. And just also what is this? And so it cost a lot of interest, which is fantastic.

Really great, really fascinating actually what you could do with it. And as you say, we're still in the beginning stages and I know that NFTs non fungible tokens tokens, they at the moment seem to be focused on artwork and memorabilia like you said, you know, something demonstrating that you were there, that you can't modify, you can't fake that. And that's really what the beauty industry is doing right now. But how do you think NFTs are maybe going to evolve in beauty over the coming years?

I'm very involved in this because I sort of feel we are in a very, very early stages. And I think that in the early stages people are quite unforgiving of the clunkiness of things. You know, I mean, let's not forget, you know, people were terrified of electric when it started, you know, and it was used by magicians, you know, and Tesla was a genius and not an evil wizard. Because we're at this early stages. You know, there is a kind of vulgarity to the early forms of things and they're very basic and then they need to go through these kind of toddler periods of it's just a shiny thing and it's got, you know, hands and of course that's not going to resonate with anybody that has spent years trying to finesse a particular thing and hone it or they've got a very nature based product on how on earth can this new world that I'm being told to step into, how does that relate? So never fear. You know, at the same time as all these kind of steps, they're very, very quick steps and we're cycling through them and there's myriads of people that are very involved in me included in a digital sophistication and looking at actually let's take all the utility, which is really the smart contract of NFTs which is how that in perpetuity can be royalties for creatives. If you think about, if you were to create say a beauty image and before, you know, the licensee would just be to the photographer, you know, let's think about how we enable across that entire creative board people you know, the image to be an NFT that therefore when that's published or when that's used or whenever that is exhibited, those people would get a share or royalty or some income from having that. You know, also being part of that process if they're signed into the NFT contract at the beginning. But also the daos, you know, being part of a brand, being part of the decentralized finance behind things, you know, how how a product comes to sale, how it could just be digital only, how that could be committee led, how that could go on to be. It's not just the. Because a lot of the time when a brand starts and then people leave and then the founders go and then the DNA isn't kept, it's kind of how do you do that? But if it's by committee from the begin, but it's also like a collective interest, you know that that's really exciting about the daos and how you kind of bring the workers into that that are working around it and are involved in it. But I think one of the most exciting things for me really is finessing the language and is actually understanding the emotional quality of what digital can do. We're so far ahead in film, we're so far ahead in gaming and the NFT has sort of started out like a kind of brat and it's had a bad name really because it's been very much a very particular aesthetic that's changed beyond all recognition already and it is becoming much more understood, the utility of it, the different amazing ways. And you can do things like geographically, you can have an NFT that changes with age, with time, with the weather, you Know, you can have an artwork that's connected to satellite with the weather that, you know, if you had, if, say, if you, you know, if you imagine you had a skincare that was informed by the coordinates of the temperature and the weather in the environment, it could inform how your skincare progresses or how your skin will react. Or, you know, it can be this kind of ongoing profile. You know, there's so much ways of updating and using, and it's quite magical in the different ways that you can actually use it. You know, not just how something looks, it's actually how it lives in perpetuity, but also because it does live in perpetuity, which means it lives forever once it's on the blockchain. That information that's also got a lot of implications of, oh, gosh, you know, you don't want to get that wrong, you don't want that to be hacked. It's not without lots of fears and worries as well. You know, it's no way perfect. So there is an instability to. That is a worry as well for lots of people. So it is finding its feet. Obviously Ethereum and Bitcoin were the most leading cryptocurrencies and obviously the environmental implications of all that as well. And that it's using just as a lot of power to put all these things, all these digital things online and into the metaverse and NFTs. But now, fortunately, the merge has just happened, which is Ethereum becoming 99.9% as sustainable and using sustainable energy, which is amazing news and wonderful because it was the leading cryptocurrency and yes, there were more sustainable ones, but they wouldn't get as much airplay. So that's really, really good. Yeah. Like I say, what's exciting for me is being involved in something that's much more sophisticated, emotional LED, slower moving and isn't so much in NFTs, it's more in digital language and removing almost the technology being invisible and it just being really beautiful experience.

Well, you talk about it being magical and I have to say it's quite magical listening to you describe it as well, because you obviously see immense potential, which makes it very exciting. Just coming back to something you said earlier where you were talking about digital first products. Now I know that l' Oreal has been filing trademarks for virtual cosmetics. What's a virtual cosmetic?

Well, a virtual cosmetic could be something that only lives in the digital realm for your avatar or for your game character or for your zoom character, or for something that is purely digital. So a digital cosmetic would be something that you would buy online and you would wear online or your character would wear or you experience for whatever it is. You know, it might be that it's, it's an experience, you know, it's might, it might not be. You might not be buying a product that you, that you put on, but it thus far it would probably be a skin. So a skin would be. For example, a couple of years ago I created a digital makeup brand and lifestyle brand for a online fashion game called Avakin Avakin Life. Which you would go in and it's almost like dress up. You know, you would incredibly detailed worlds that you would get the clothes from. There would be brands that are real brands and digital only brands. So you would much like you would buy or go and look and browse, you would go through a digital menu of all the different designs and in that was also accessories and makeup. So in the makeup you would file through different blushes, different kind of contours, but they would be preset. So it wouldn't be something that you would be taking and applying. You'd be buying a preset menu. Much like when you say go to Mac or Estee Lauder or Chanel or any brand and you do a virtual try on, you know, or say augmented lips. So you'll, you'll tap through, you know, you take a picture of your face or you'll be live face recognition and then you can tap through and see different colors. They are preset. So preset means that it's an already existing file that has a lip shape on that maybe tracking to your lip shape, but then giving you the colors as you cycle through from a menu. Nearly every brand has that because it's all made by the same company. The augmented try on, you would be able to have that experience across, across brands as it currently is that you see different skin colors and different lip colors, eyeliner shapes, things like that. So digital, imagine that. But like a file of already a menu with different preset digital makeups or digital, you know, like I just said about the glowing halo, it might be that someone's done glowing skin, which may a bit like a filter. You know, if you go into Instagram, you see the different filters like sparkly skin or blurred skin or all these different things. So it would be a sort of transparent layer with the makeup on it. Or it would be an experience or it would be an absolutely unique ideology of what a product can be digitally for whatever brand chose, you know, depending how creative they get with it.

So I'd love to dive into the ethics of this a little bit more because obviously we're talking about a whole myriad of different uses for digital products potentially. But do you feel that there are any risks with having a digital avatar that people will feel must meet potentially unattainable beauty standards? After all, if anyone could design the way they look in a digital world, then the chance is great that their avatar might not look anything like them in real life, potentially. What are the ethics of this?

It's the same as the real world. You know, there isn't a magical mirror that you step through that you suddenly become unethical or more ethical because you're in digital. I don't think, you know, it's a bit like when you go on Twitter. People are more enabled because they have a little bit of wind behind them because no one can hear them and they become a little bit of a keyboard warrior. So there's definitely a bit more courage, bad and good. So I think that's the same in digital. People get the chance to explore and develop identity and maybe be. Most people that go into a game as a woman are actually men being women in gaming, you know, percentage wise, lots of people game as a woman even though a man and vice versa, and the panoply of genders in between. This is what's really interesting and it's a question asked a lot, but really we are very. All beauty standards are unobtainable because that's what keeps people buying things. You know, it's been designed to be out of reach. You know, the unobtainium, as it were, is what keeps people clamoring to try to attain the unobtainable. And actually with my completely neutral hat on, that is the state of all advertising. Everything is about that. You don't have what you've been told that you need. And therefore the unobtainable beauty standard, as it were, or the sort of destructive idea of beauty standard is upped and upped and upped and up. And we are, I think, in the apex of it can't get any more. And actually moving into digital because people are augmenting their bodies to such a point where anymore and it'll actually become quite damaging, as I mean, it already is, I think. But it's also it physically the skeleton, the body, the muscles, you know, they can't be stretched anymore. And I think that really the unobtainable beauty standards in real life are so wild because it's been so gentle. People don't realize how far it's got. And actually Digital, you know, in a way, I don't think it can be any worse or better than the real world because it's the same people playing those games. It's the same people with the same needs. And actually some people find it immensely freeing to be able to be something completely different. But. But personally, I do think you'll run into exactly the same things. The unobtainable things will happen in, in digital, but they'll be quicker because they are obtainable, because you can make things but a bit like a spectrum, you know, the more you do it, the wider the spectrum becomes and the less the peaks are high. So the extremes become flattened out to the point where everything is accepted. And I do think that we're going, you know, we're going through that stage in our bodies at the moment. It's got so far that it has to kind of fold in on itself to come back again, you know, And I think that also there's so much being put upon us to control us with body autonomy, taking away body autonomy. There is a huge revolt coming and is happening. And I think that the same, that same energy and ethics and absolutely agree with you that everything about digital has to be done with, with an implicit understanding of better. But there will be the same sort of destruction because people are people. Those trolls will exist, those body shamers will exist, those unobtainable things will exist because advertising will get in. But also it's so wide and big that you will find your space the way that you find your space. Let's not forget, you know, the beauty standards that we've got in the real world are so, so extreme already that it's almost like, you know, having a digital double or something being pushed so far with the human body that in the digital the bodies are not the same as human bodies. You know, that the ethic, the standard of where we go is much more abstract. It's being pulled into the post human body, which is where I feel the minute we set the body aside, the minute we remove the body is when we'll be free of all these things, when we'll be free of the shaming and the worry and the unobtainium and the age and everything that we all the logic that we base in the fear that is, is actually all symptomatic of a body. I mean, you step into a consciousness, you step into a collective consciousness and a post body, you're kind of free of that. And I mean, it's funny because, you know, I work a lot talking about essences More than bodies of somebody that's worked in faces and bodies. I know the limitation and I know. I know the logic of body and a lot of it is incredibly binary and very difficult and based in fear. But then that's not of our doing really. That's of a myriad of. I mean, I could go on forever about why. Why we. We feel things, but it's conditioning.

Yes, I completely understand. Just one final question before we end this podcast. One thing that we talked about when you and I met before this was you said something fascinating and I just want to explore that one because you said digital could potentially even be a savior to get us closer to who we really are. Can you just explain to me what that means?

Oh, absolutely. Without giving too much of a game away because of what I'm involved in myself. So let's take makeup, for example. Let's take how we present ourselves and what we've got used to very quickly, you know, we've gone from being very playful with makeup and the how to arrived and the YouTube and it was kind of explaining it and it had integrity. At the early stages of connecting, you know, I've used this. Let's cut through the sort of fake advertising or what doesn't. Doesn't work. This did work. I put it on my skin. I'm a real person. So there was the localized sort of truth. And that made, oh, well, she's like me or he's like me. I'm going to go and buy that. You know, and that cut through and that was really beautiful. And then the how to turned into a bit more about is more formulaic. But you kind of got to know somebody. You got to know them. There was personality unless you built up a trust with a person, and that became bigger and bigger and bigger. And then. And then the makeup sort of turned into more like the celebrity. That was how two person became a celebrity. And then they had a brand and then you, you know, the boutique brand set off. And that's when the big house is worried. And I think that. But what was in that early stage was a truce. And the truism is the removing of all the things that we just talked about. We're talking about people putting trust and feeling safe in your voice. My voice. I know you. I feel safe. I'm going to experiment with that. I feel the digital I'm involved in is about going into what is the truth behind experience. So when we put on makeup or when we put on the cream or when we put, you know, what's taking Place, you know, the human touch, say, is not just. Everybody thinks that's going to go with digital. But I'm trying to say that actually let's take touch touches, you know, memory, sound, taste, texture, you know, let's look at that at a micro level and let's take experience apart and then rebuild it as a sensorial exploration and then do that with digital, where you could go right inside the idea of layering, you know what something sits over the top of something else, it informs it. So in that information, let's make something that is an experience of that and give that back to you. So when you do something in digital, it has a sound, a smell, a taste, a texture. And that truth is unique. And that message and that sort of symbiosis of understanding and being in the presence of something that is uniquely not about selling. It's not about want, need, desire. It's about the truth of that moment. The same way as you splash black on the white page, you get this feeling. And those feelings are. You feel them. And I think we've got so used to seeing. We're overwhelmed with seeing we're overwhelmed and overstimulated constantly. But the uniqueness of say, that's why the wellness industry is massive. People want to feel they've been numb for so long. We've gone through trauma, we've gone through Covid, we've gone. We're really traumatized, we're oversaturated with stimuli and feel very numb. So the truth, and there's localized, really intimate moments of, is what I'm trying to get closer to pulling apart and rebuilding with a digital language that is very, very sensitive, but based in sensorial, corporeal exploration. I don't know if I've actually made it worse by explaining it. No.

That was absolutely fascinating. You are incredible. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to find out more about you, about your artwork, about everything you do, where can they do?

So obviously I do put lots on Instagram, which is at the Alex Box. And it's the same for Twitter is the Alex Box. My website is thealexbox as well. But I've got a lot coming up, really that I think I really work well when I'm talking. So I think I'm going to start doing some Twitter spaces as well to kind of explore into this a bit deeper. I put most things I would say on my Instagram, they link to my website so you can find me there. But thank you. So lovely. Great questions. Thank you.

Thank you. For joining me. We will include all of those links in the show notes.

Thank you.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. What do you think of the concept of beauty in the metaverse? Do you feel you understand it all yet? Do you like the idea? Please do come and leave us a comment on our social channels as both the Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you. Thank you for joining Dr. Alex Box and I for this latest episode of Green Beauty Conversations. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please do leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations too. Make sure you subscribe to our Patreon podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever your favorite podcast app is and stay tuned for the next episode. Follow Formula Botanica at Formula Botanica on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter or LinkedIn. Visit our website at formulabotanica.com and sign up for our free online Formulation course today.

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