EP14. Sustainable Beauty: Discussing the Top Challenges & Concerns

Hello and welcome to the Formula Botanica Green Beauty Conversations podcast. If you're interested in taking one of our award winning online organic cosmetic science courses, then head over to formulabatanica.com and sign up for our free sample class. In this episode of Green Beauty Conversations, I chat to Barbara Olioso from the Green Chemist Consultancy about all things sustainability and how it relates to the green beauty movement. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to the podcast.

Barbara. Hello, Gemma. Thank you very much for having me at Formula Botanica.

It's an absolute pleasure. So Lorraine and I finally got to meet you at In Cosmetics 2018 in Amsterdam when we were there and we followed your work for quite a long time. We've been admirers of what you put out there, so it's really, we're thrilled to have you as a guest on the podcast.

Thank you very much. And I really appreciate all the work you do, all the educational programs you have for green cosmetics. It's brilliant. You, you make that available to a lot of people.

Thank you. So if you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.

Yeah. I'm originally from Verona in Italy. I studied chemistry in Venice and there I met an English boyfriend. So I moved to the UK several years ago and there I did a master in food Science and technology. And then I ended up working for a color therapy company. So that was my introduction in the cosmetic industry. And I really love working with plants and botanicals and all sorts of natural derived ingredients. And I was at this company for five and a half years. And after that I joined Primavera Aromatherapy where I set up several organic certifications, Organic Food Federation and Soil Association. And while I was there, I developed back in 2005, the first organic eau de toilette. And then soon after I left Primavera and I set up my own company, the Green Chemist Consultancy. And I do different things. I do formulations, organic or sustainable skincare, hair care. I also do reformulations like replacement of synthetic preservatives, choosing the what certification is most relevant for you, you know, vegan, all sorts of organic, etc. And I also do training, but there are sort of short webinars on the special chem platform on the Cosmos certification and natural alternatives to synthetic preservatives.

Wow. So we were discussing just before we started recording the issue of sustainability in the green be beauty movement. And that's the main focus of our podcast today. We're talking about sustainability and different aspects of sustainability. And the reason that we particularly wanted to discuss this was that sustainability is often a Quite a confusing subject, I think, because there's been a lot of misinformation and miseducation about what sustainability means. And often it's attached to the green kind of beauty industry, as if everything the green beauty industry puts out is sustainable. So we wanted to discuss a few questions and few issues around that. So my first question to you, which is a much discussed one in our communities, is if an ingredient is considered natural, does it always mean that it's going to be sustainable?

And yes, it's a very hot question. And I think first I need a little introduction about what sustainability is, because it's a judgment. So you need some guidelines to, you know, to make a judgment about. And if I start from the Sustainable Development goals, there are 17 of them, which are quite few. But which ones are most important for cosmetics? For me, the responsible consumption and production, which is the goal number 12 is critical. Which means once the product goes out there in the environment, does it biodegrade? Does it cause aquatic toxicity? So that is a very important factor around sustainability. Another one is, does this ingredient involve child labor or any form of slavery? Mica and cocoa butter now are linked to this. So that wouldn't be sustainable. And does this product cause deforestation or does it damage biodiversity? So if I look at all these five different criteria, I can say, you know, this product, this ingredient aims at sustainability. There is not, I would say, 100% sustainable, natural or even synthetic ingredient. I think to this day, because of the nature of cosmetics, we use them and there is no way of reintroducing them into a cycle. Once they're used, they get disposed of.

Yeah.

Does that answer your question? Yes.

No, it does. So I mean, you know, this brings us on to the next question. You know, the differences or the debate around, you know, natural ingredients so that it comes from, you know, obviously there's different scales of natural for different people. But if we're assuming it comes from a plant versus something that is formulated in a lab, that is saying that nature identical, you know, could you argue that some of the nature identical ingredients created in a lab are more sustainable than ingredients derived from nature, especially if they're kind of over harvested, over processed? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, I don't have really any issue personally with nature identical, providing, you know, the criteria I mentioned earlier on are met. So the biodegradability and aquatic toxicity are very important. Obviously still, you have to face the issue of the origin of the raw material, which is not from a non renewable source. So at the moment, they're very cost effective, they're very practical and good to use. But we also need to think like 30, 40, 50 years down the line when oil runs out. And in fact, at the moment there are very promising alternatives like fermentation and stem cell technology, where you combine the natural concept with sort of lab technology. So you don't use, you know, the natural environment to obtain a certain molecule, but you grow it in a lab? Basically. Yeah.

So, I mean, let's give a few examples of that. I mean, what do you think at the moment that is an ingredient that are you. That is used in the kind of, in the green beauty movement like that people consider natural, that is kind of, maybe not kind of on your level of sustainable, what you would classify as sustainable?

All right. Because the preservatives, for example, that's what comes to mind is sodium benzoate and potassium sulbate. But they are, you know, food grade. And for me, they are not sustainable because I'm not keen on their dermatological effect on the skin. Not for the criteria I mentioned earlier on. But I don't know if you. At the moment, no nature identical ingredient that, you know, that is not sustainable comes to mind. I don't know if you have one in mind particularly.

No, not really. I'm trying to think of what the most popular one would be. I mean, obviously there. Yeah, there's so many different options. But I think that what I'm trying to get at here is that we often have a lot of kind of debates and discussions and there are people that say, oh, you know, I'd much rather use something from nature rather than something that is formulated in a lab because it's going to be more sustainable. But ultimately, I think that only addresses maybe, like you said, there's multiple factors that you have to consider when sustainable.

Yeah. Because definitely there is a value in growing plant materials. And if you grow plants, you protect them and sustain them. If you don't grow them, then what's going to happen? So we need a sort of variety of solutions for different type of raw materials. And it's important, I think, to keep the crops going so that we protect the plants, we look after them, and we also need to protect biodiversity and restore wild habitat. We have, you know, all sorts of different challenges and there isn't really one big solution like, oh, let's go nature identical, or let's grow things in a lab. You need a variety of solutions.

Yeah. So in other words, there might be some plants that are easy to harvest and that can meet demands and that meet all your different criteria. But then there's some things that might be better to have them nature identical and grown in a lab if you're not able to look after them in their kind of natural environment and encourage biodiversity and natural habitats.

That's right, yeah. Yeah.

Because I guess there's a problem with over harvesting. I mean, I know that, like sandalwood is.

Yeah.

A problem, but, you know, those are things that people still like to use and often will say, well, it's from nature, so you know, it's sustainable but.

Not really depends how it's harvested. And there is also a lot of adulteration with sandalwood oil. And so you really need to get a good source of it. But obviously without inspecting, it's really difficult to know how sustainable it is. And yes, sandalwood oil is fantastic. And now there are sources from Australia available. In my opinion, they're not as nice as the Indian one. And so how do we go about that? How can we promote a sort of a healthy and sustainable industry for sandalwood? Because in India they have all sorts of issues, all sorts of survival issues there. And, you know, so it's a tricky one. I think these are challenges that can be turned into opportunities.

Yeah. Give me some examples of opportunities that you think that we have in this industry to.

I mean, it was one that comes to mind, you know, there was all this big success around the coffee scrubs and I thought it was really clever that, you know, a food waste became a very popular product in the cosmetic industry, this coffee body scrub. And I really admire that initiative and. Yeah, and I think they're still going.

Yeah, no, they are. I mean, coffee scrubs are really, really popular. Yeah. And the idea that you could use something that was considered a waste product, I mean, I know that that is often, you know, people are always looking for new opportunities like that, particularly in the food industry as well. And normally what happens in the food industry at some point kind of crosses over slightly.

Yes, cosmetics is a strictly linked.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I was getting at, the reason why I wanted to ask you those questions was because I think that sometimes it's really easy to say one thing is better than the other. And I know that, you know, there's this debate happens within the vegan circles as well, obviously, is a big thing, but just if it doesn't contain animal products, does that mean it's sustainable? Does that mean it's cruelty free? I mean, what do you think about that?

This is such a big Topic. I know, but first of all, I mean, there is a value in vegan diet. I appreciate that. Because the environmental impact of having animals is big. So therefore there is the opportunity there for organic meat. Because according to organic standards, they're not meant to be fed with antibiotics, which are a big, big problem in fish farming and animal farming. They cause all this antimicrobial resistance and it's a problem. Right. But you know, if I think of myself as vegan, I would struggle. I'm a part time vegan myself. So even though I share what, you know, their aim and their values, I'm not completely, you know, committed to the point of giving up meat. But I eat organic meat. So when it comes, so. And also there are obviously organic cows and so on. They're treated. You know, there are some fair trade standards for them. So when it comes to cosmetics, because of all the chemical processing, it's not as simple as that. You know, if you look at the chemical process, processed ingredient, they can be animal derivatives. Like a classic example is xanthan gum. So the fermentation process involves egg white to feed the enzyme.

Okay.

And vegan society, for example, doesn't allow that grade of xantangam. You need to use a vegan grade. Right. But you know, personally, it's an egg. You know, the cruelty, I don't see the cruelty of that. And so I don't know how far you want to go into the rabbit hole. Because even when you think of a plant, you feed it with horse manure. Ben, what about that? Is that vegan? Is the crop vegan? If you feed it with horse manure, there is an overall connection. We cannot separate animal from plants. There is this, you know, evolutionary. We know there is this big link and I think we have to be sort of reasonable about how we look after the animals, the welfare of animals and how we sort of select the criteria for vegan cosmetics. Because the problem with vegan cosmetics is they can be full of petrochemicals and then petrochemicals go into the environment and they pollute the waters and then that kills the fish. So what about that? Yeah, you need to have a sort of a. We look after the animals, but the how has to be flexible and reasonable.

Yeah, it's an interesting debate because obviously I myself am not vegan, but I share the ideals like you say, because I think massive benefits in eating that way and preventing, you know, cruelty to animals and everything. But just because something is certified vegan doesn't necessarily mean it's cruelty free, which I think I remember when I did a master's in food policy quite a while ago, and there was this debate raging about that. And so people were arguing, you know, if all I'm eating is, like, blueberries and quinoa and whatever, then my diet is cruelty free. And the lecturer was like, yeah, but there's different categories of cruelty free. So, for instance, do you know that your blueberries are, you know, completely humanely picked? Like, what are the conditions on the farm where the blueberries are coming from? Is it associated with child labor in any way? How is your quinoa being grown in Peru? How is it, you know, so there was this massive debate about what, in fact, cruelty free meant. And again, like, what you were mentioning, if you have something that doesn't have any animal products but does have loads of petrochemicals, and how is that definitely sustainable? You know, there's a scale, I think, that people, you know. But then how far down the rabbit hole do you go? I mean, like you said, how would we live if we had to avoid every single thing? I think we'd be so stressed out.

But this is it. I think we need to accept these conflicting. We live in a time of big conflict dilemmas, and we just need to accept there are dilemmas and nobody's perfect. But I think awareness and education are key. So get to know your dilemmas and then make conscious choices. What's most important to you, really?

Yeah, exactly. So one of the other things I wanted to talk to you about that we were talking about before we started recording this was about the kind of movement towards zero waste and its connection to the green beauty movement. And one of the topics that was debated not that long ago in one of our Facebook groups was about how do you have refillable packaging as an option? And I wanted you to talk a little bit about that because you raised some interesting points before we started recording.

I mean, the Body Shop pioneered this concept several years ago, and people would go to the shops and refill their bottles. And this had to put a stop to it because they had microbial issues. And at the time, there were more synthetic preservatives allowed. They were not as restricted as we are today. So I now see more, you know, a revamp of this concept with pouches. And I can't see how that is going to work if they are going to put them back into the original bottle. We don't really know what happens in people's bathrooms, do we?

No.

And there is a risk. So who is going to take that Risk and who is responsible when things go wrong. So I wouldn't be keen on it. And I've seen other ideas now about the plastic free movement, you know, with the dry solid shampoos and things like that. And they, you know, I haven't tried one, but it makes sense. I think it's suitable for more committed consumers, perhaps.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, do you think, you know, should packaging be where our focus is as an industry if we're trying to make ourselves more sustainable?

Packaging definitely is a big source of waste. And you know, even if you look at the cost of a cosmetic product, look how much you spend for packaging. And I think that boxes. Do we need, do we really need boxes? They need all these fancy, you know, foil effects that make it impossible to recycle. And in terms of plastic bottles, can we use smaller bottles with more concentrated products so we're more efficient about the way we use the plastic? And how do we make sure that that recyclable bottle ends up in the right place where it's properly handled? And think also of the dispenser because like pumps are very difficult, not nearly impossible to recycle. They're made of 14, 15 different materials. How are you going to dismantle that even if every single material is potentially recyclable? So you really need to think all these things and also have a campaign of education for the consumers because the consumers, if they end up with paying for something that hasn't got a box, it's a smaller bottle and it doesn't have a pump. They need to understand it's important that there is a value in that simple approach and that they're helping the environment to reduce this plastic pressure.

I mean, I think that's a really interesting point and it comes back to the point that you made before about this age of dilemma. Because, you know, often, you know, we see people who want to create beautiful looking products. So the packaging has to be beautiful and it has to be, you know, kind of social media worthy. You know, you can have your products on a shelfie or you know, that it looks good on Instagram or Facebook or whatever platform you choose to be on. But yet how do we tie that into sustainability? I mean, are we gonna have to make a compromise somewhere, do you think?

I think people will need to understand. And we saw Blue Planet had a massive impact on people's awareness about what happens to things, you know, because we're just aware of what we see. But with Blue Planet, we went beyond our sort of familiar environment and we Saw what happens in the oceans. And I think there will be more of that if people know about impact and they will think twice. They will have, we'll have to find obviously a balance. It doesn't have to look ugly, but I think people will need to sort of, how can I say, get more familiar with the consequences of using a certain type of product.

Yeah. So I guess, you know, if we're going to use less packaging or we're going to try and you know, seek alternatives to like pumps and you know, that sort of stuff that like you say the campaign of education is much more, is equally as important as your packaging. Really?

I suppose, yeah, no, definitely. So part of this campaign of education, it's all together, it has to explain about the packaging. And I think people anyway, they're so fed up with. I am fed up with packaging. Every time I go to the supermarket it's a job to separate cardboard and then the plastic and some plastic, all plastic. Is it, where do I put it? It's like it's a full time job. So the benefit also is not only for the environment, potentially for people because they're going to save time and hassle about, you know, managing all these packaging.

Yeah, I guess. You know, another tricky thing is I was speaking to a packaging person at an event recently and I asked them about what they were doing to kind of offer sustainable solutions to their customers. And they said, you know, we want to do X, Y, Z, but some products can't go into some packaging because of microbial issues and et cetera. So I was like, okay, yeah, I understand it a bit more. Like she's like, so. And she gave me some examples and I was like, okay, yeah, I get that. But then I was thinking, this is another dilemma that we have, like you said, I mean, do we prioritize the microbial stuff or do we prioritize the packaging? Because from her perspective, she was like, we have to comply with these EU regulations.

You got to. The safety is paramount, otherwise there is no point. Definitely safety comes first. But maybe you can offset. If you have to be more stringent with packaging, maybe you can offset it in other ways. Yeah, you don't have to be, you know, so rigid.

Yeah, I suppose so. And I suppose, you know, we have seen a move towards, you know, formulating things that are, that don't need as much packaging, like the shampoo bars or the body bars and those sorts of things. I mean, do you think there's a future for that sort of, that sort of product? And do you think you know, where do you think the kind of premium market then lies in this?

Yeah, it will be very interesting to see. It said, these are very interesting times. And Lush has been heavily promoting their solid shampoo even though they're full of FDC colors and I haven't checked the inky listing. Yeah. So it would be interesting to see if they manage to change the culture and especially young people. Yeah. I would say there's more potential for millennials because they care about environment, they're young, they're prepared to change their habits, and so they would certainly, I think, embrace that change. But for older generations, I'm not sure. I can't picture, you know, older people using solid shampoos, but I think it's a niche that will grow more and more. And in relation to premium, how are they going to do it without the fancy packaging? That would be very interesting. I don't know. If I knew I would go to a big company and sell the idea. Yeah.

I mean, I guess, you know, like. Like most things related to sustainability, you know, the situation that we are in now as, As a whole, we're gonna have to pick it off piece by piece.

Yeah.

You know, so, like you say, focus on what matters first. So, like, you know, I guess for the premium industry, maybe that can be ingredients. So maybe they have to look at the ingredients, the provenance, sustainability, tackle that first. Then hopefully by the time they finish that someone has come up with some ingenious.

But they got margins, so they could invest into environmental projects to restore Wild Avatar. So in that case, if they wanted a fancy packaging, you know, knowing they have projects to restore the environment, I would say, okay, I can live with that.

Yeah.

You know. Yeah. So, you know, as I said, it's about, you know, sort of negotiating all these dilemmas and all different areas and find your way.

Yeah. I guess what's come out of this for me is there's no one single answer to everything.

No, there isn't. But there has to be a sort of a general commitment that is not just based on packaging. It's based on ingredients. It's based on all sorts of things. Even in the manufacturing way. Clean your plant. All sorts of.

Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying about opportunities. You have an opportunity at every level.

Yeah.

If you're thinking about harvesting provenance, like. Yeah. Cleaning of the manufacturing facilities, there's an opportunity to sustain, make something like, make some part of the process that sustainable.

Yeah, definitely.

I just wanted to say thank you so much for joining us. It's been a really good chat and yeah, I'm sure we'll be working together on this at some point in the future or have you as a guest at some point. Thank you.

Thank you. And yeah, if you want to hook up with me, I have a LinkedIn page, a Twitter page and a website as well. So yeah, have a look about it. But I will use Oily Oso. You will easily find them.

What I'll do is I'll put in all of your in the show notes, I'll put in all of your links like your website, your Twitter, everything that you're on. It will come in there.

Okay, that's it.

Thanks so much to Barbara again for joining us and thank you for taking the time to listen to these podcasts. We do put quite a lot of effort into them, so I really hope that you're enjoying them again. If you want to connect with us, you can find us over@formulabotanica.com or on Facebook, Instagram, on Twitter, ormulabatanica. Thank you and bye bye.

Sam.