EP155. Cosmetics for climate change

Imagine what could happen if you brought together one of the world's most experienced hair care executives with a background in hairdressing, together with one of the world's most experienced hair care creators and manufacturers with a 64 year old family business that creates millions of units of hair care sold globally. Sounds pretty impressive, right? Well, the potential is endless when you're Simon Ostler and Gianantonio Negretti, my two guests today. But then throw into that mix a deep love for the concept of humanistic cosmetics. And by that we I mean cosmetics that celebrate our humanity rather than making us feel bad about ourselves together with an overwhelming drive to do the right thing by the environment. And all of a sudden you have the potential for a future eco hair care unicorn. Perhaps. And that's exactly what we're going to explore on the podcast today. So I recently received a press release about a new hair care brand called Climaplex, which has formulated hair care shampoos, conditioners, styling products to mitigate the effects of the climate crisis on our hair. Now, I immediately sat up and paid attention because I'd not seen anyone else do this before. But never in a million years did I expect to discover this incredible story behind Climaplex, set up by two visionaries with decades of experience in the hair care industry. Now, this is a longer episode than usual, but I do recommend you take the time to listen carefully to what's being said because I know it will inspire. Welcome to Green Beauty Conversations, the podcast that challenges you to think about how you buy, use, make or sell your green beauty formulations. In my weekly episodes, I explore the sustainability of the beauty industry and encourage you to join me in changing the beauty industry for the better. I'm your host, Lorraine Dallmeyer. I'm a chartered environmentalist, biologist and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school Formula Botanica. We have thousands and thousands of students in over 180 countries around the world who study with us to become organic beauty formulators and entrepreneurship entrepreneurs. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com to try our free online formulation course. And if you want to be the first person to know what's happening in green beauty, and I know that you do, make sure you subscribe to this podcast in your favorite podcast app. So in today's episode, I'm joined by Simon Ostler and Gianantonio Negretti. And let me introduce both of them briefly to you before you meet them. So Simon is the founder of Climaplex and is an industry hair care veteran with 40 years of experience. He started his career as a stylist for the world renowned hairdressing group Tony and Guy who Cut My Hair as well. And Simon then became a multi salon owner and moved into the commercial world of hair. He quickly became a senior executive at l' Oreal Professional before becoming the European CEO of the iconic brand Bed Head, which I'm sure you've heard of, and then the European head of Schwarzkop Professional. Gian Antonio Negretti is the founder of beautycon Valley holding, which is an Italian organization that produces the most innovative and high quality cosmetic products sold in more than 130 countries around the world. And it comprises a network formed by more than 50 companies. So Gian Antonio has been at the helm of the group for over 30 years, promoting progress in the world of beauty through scientific development. The business manages multiple manufacturing plants that have created millions of products used by beauty shoppers globally. He's also the author of the book Humanistic Cosmetics in which he puts forward his philosophy on needing to place humanity at the center of beauty. Hi Simon and Jan Antonio, welcome to the podcast. It is so good to have you here. So let's find out a little bit more about Climaplex. To start with, Simon, can you please introduce Climaplex? What do you make and sell?

Okay, so maybe before we give you a background of Climoplex, let's give you a little bit of context to the background of who we are as well, because hopefully that will then enable you to understand why we did the things that we've done with Climiplex and the root of success it's had. So as you can tell, we're both a similar age, but we've both been in the profession for nearly 40 years. And actually in the professional hair care industry, I was a hairdresser back in the 80s for a famous brand called Tony and Guy. I left hairdressing in 89 to go and work for L' Oreal and built a career in L' Oreal before setting up a brand called Bedhead, as I think most people will know, which was a successful brand. And we, we sold eventually to Unilever and then went off and did my own thing around Schwarzkopf Professional for a period of time, but over the last six years developed my own brands. But we've been renowned in the professional industry, so our heritage is very much connected to the professional hairdresser. And we create products, whether that be color care, shampoo, perm, you name it, we create and we obviously have a great relationship with our Trade. But that's quite important part because we still have a very close proximity to the hairdresser, a really close proximity. And we talk to hairdressers every single day. And we'd really seen over the last few years highlighted enormously by Covid that we were seeing some quite dramatic changes, consumers, hair and scalp and really challenges that we haven't really seen before in our industry. And not helped by the fact that there's no real predetermined fashion at the moment in hair. And what we're seeing is over 75% of women have over shoulder length hair. And you fall into that category. And what that means is. And we have to be delicate in the way that we word it. But what we mean is that this, this coach aging in the hair. So very often when you look at a consumer's hair and the hair is long, that hair can be anything up from, you know, seven, ten, even longer years. So you see different levels of porosity and damage in the hair. But also with, you know, the clients and the consumers that were talking to our hairdressers were seeing things they've never really witnessed before. You know, build up in the hair, irritation on the scalp, discoloration actually to natural hair or blonde hair. And we started to really see that actually this change was really reflected in the climate. And I think we've always, we talk about climate change and the impacts of climate change on the planet, but I think we've never really understood the impact climate change has on our hair and scalp. Now, we're not eco warriors. This is the first thing I'm very careful to say. We're all very caring about the sustainability of our, especially our business sustainability, the part that we play in manufacturing, especially in manufacturing bottles. But really we are, we were more inquisitive at that period of time to understand why do we see these such significant changes in the damage of the consumer's hair? Why are they seeing more irritation on the scalp? I'll let in John Antonio, introduce himself in a second. But we work together as a partnership to really understand and work with our chemists and our R D. And we can see there's a very, very close relationship between the effects that climate change is having on our hair and scalp. Now, what are those effects I think is the easiest way to look at it. So we look, you know, we know the word pollution free, radical activity. We see more chlorine in the water than we've ever seen before. And especially through Covid period, you know, the percentage of chlorine that we find in normal drinking water increased obviously to combat any bacterial or viral effects. But other things that we're seeing, greenhouse gases is a really good example. Four seasons in one day. I mean I'm in Italy at the moment with John and but I live actually just outside of London and the UK is that there's a place where you do see rain, snow, sun, whatever in one day. And you know, sometimes the consumers say, well, what does impact? Well, how does that impact me? And really the impact is through additional uses of central heating and air conditioning that can dry the scalp and dry the hair. But then obviously sun, sun damage. We've always understood sun damage on our, on our face, on our skin. But if you imagine our scalp was just an extension of our face, it's the same impact. And hair gets damaged as well by heat. As consumers find hair more difficult to manage. If there's humidity in the air, they use straighteners. This is damaging the hair. So there was a really close proximity to understanding the changes of climate change and those impacts they were having on our hair and scalp. That was the really how we identified it. The harder part was how do you address it? And I think that was the key for us. And the brief I gave John Antonio's incredible R and D research team here is to say I want to create a product that first and foremost is sustainable using a high level of natural ingredient. I don't want man made ingredient. This has to be in a natural approach. How do we combat the adverse effects of climate change in our Heron scalp? That was clearly the brief. Now the name came about because the concept of Plex technology is quite well known and researched now in the world. And there's been other companies that have come to the forefront using a Plex technology. But what we found actually within our Plex technology is we managed to cater for four different aspects that we had to find to help fight those adverse effects of damage from climate change. The Clima is the climate, so Climaplex is Climber is climate. Plex is the Plex technology Climaplex. And with Climaplex we now have a brand new category of hair care. And it's very interesting because we're launching now in retailers around the world and the brand new category has really resonated very well with not only the buyer, the retailer, but also the consumer. So we've launched Climberplex. I think we launched it a year ago. It's our anniversary. We launched initially into North America, now we're launching around the world. But the brand is a Brand new category. It consists of nine products. We can go into that in a second. But the whole concept really is to say how do we create a sustainable product? And when we talk about sustainability, it is important to recognize that we have to do our thing to try and keep sustainability alive. So the packaging that we use is post consumer plastic. So it's all been recycled and is recyclable, including the pump, which is quite rare in our industry. But it's packaged up in a product that offers, through its reparative technology, it offers a four step program to combat the damage that's been created by the adverse effects of climate change on the hair and scalp.

Amazing. Well, let's come on to what those are in a minute. You've answered half my questions already, which is great. Dale Antonio, could you please introduce yourself and then also tell us a bit about the products that Acclimaplex makes and sells.

Yeah. Thank you first of all for having us guests to your beautiful podcast. We are very honored to be here with you. I'm Gianna Tony Negretti. I am founder of this new way of approaching the beauty industry. And in reality I have an heritage of I'm a second generation, so my father founded our company back in 1959. So almost 64 years ago. I joined the company almost 40 years ago. After a while that, you know, I introduced myself to this industry. I found a lot of things that according to my opinion, they were not correctly connected with the etymology of the, of the word cosmetic and beauty. There should be really, you know, happiness and support to the human race, to the human being. So I found a lot of contradiction between the expectation of the end consumer and the activity of the supply chain from the manufacturer down to the end consumer. Because a lot of lies, a lot of false promises based on a healthy ignorance. I always say that, you know, the end consumer, they are not biologists, they are not chemists, they are not scientists, just human being that they want to have some sort of support to their journey through life. And actually they want, they go to, to beauty when they really want to have their youth protected, their self esteem reinforced, their anxiety reduce, their personal relational well being improved. And they want to find some light in their soul, some, some new, more vibrant light in the soul. So the scientists, they say that the cosmetic for the human being, the cosmetic products are holistic drug and the professional beautician and hairdresser, in theory they are really doctor holistic doctors that they, they try to heal in a holistic way. So with no secondary effects Especially no secondary bad effects the human being. But if we check carefully up till today, when the beauty meet human beings, consumers, there's not a love or there is a conflict happening. Because beauty industry is trying to attract the end consumer by terrifying them. Look at how many wrinkles you have. Look at what happened to your your body with due to the gravity force. So do you look at this? You're aging, you're destroying. So by terrifying, then they type this is a solution. But the solution is very often not clinically proven. It's only somebody that say, this is what you need. But when you go into details and say, okay, let me see how this works, you you see that most likely doesn't maintain the promises. So all this create a vicious circle. I try to solve through our day to day operation. And also I wrote a book, you know, Humanistic Cosmetics that tried to summarize what happened why probably and how we can eventually solve altogether this, you know, miscommunication and also mismanage of this great opportunity. Because you know, a lot of people, they use to fight depression, they tend to use cosmetics. But then, you know, they, they, because they are not well treated, they go to drugs, you know, because they cannot accept aging. They cannot accept. But the aging can be also well aging. Not only well being, it can also be a well aging. If you tell the truth to people. And by delivering the product, you also tell people that what you have on your face and body is also what we call the calligraphy of your emotions. It's something that talk about you is something very attractive, very fashionable. It's your charisma.

Also.

It's not only the aging the bad. So for sure we as a manufacturer normally project due to Photoshop the filters something that do not exist. To try to have the people mirroring in this. I look at this, look at that. And then we create all these false expectations. And so we try to do this. And Climaplex is an example of our approach to sustainability. So we started not top to down thinking what is convenient for us, but we started bottom up. Because it's correct that we have to protect Earth in any way we can. Not polluting respecting everything and everybody, especially the human race. Because sometimes we want to respect a tree and then we don't respect the next door, then next door Naples. So sometimes we are a little bit, you know, ridiculous. Because we want to do something good in a way. And we don't do something good also in the other way. So for sure we want to act responsible. But we especially want to act bottom up. So listening very careful to the consumers. This, you know, we have been very, very blessed and very lucky that to meet Simon in our journey. Because coming from his hairdressing experience and having still his relation, a lot of relation in the hairdressing community, he has the reality of the end consumer on a daily basis. So when a lot of his ex colleagues told him, you know, even with the best products ever, our consumer they feel itchy on the scalp and they burning they had, you know, the hair difficult to detangle, to manage. Even with the best products in the market. It came to a point and say there's something new never addressed to the scientists, that the scientists never addressed in their research. And this new thing says a new level of pollutants, aggressors due to like he was saying before, you know, acid rains, chlorine never seen before. You know, ozone hole, humidity, four season, one day sudden storm, electrostatic growth. So many things that has never been so intense. And especially Covid added more and more including the personal stress that has a lot to do with the follicles and the scalp. So he brought to attention to our scientists and we created a really huge committee including one of the leading and one of the oldest universities that we have in the world. And in Italy that they use, University of Naples, that was born in 1224, almost 1000 years ago. Very renewed and well known and in the world as one of the most advanced pharmacologists university in the world. So they were side by side with us to develop and to clinically prove the performance of this product that are, you know, vegan, over 97% natural, naturally derived ingredients, fully recyclable and recycled packaging. And really that works in a scientific way on the four dimension inside the hair, on the cuticle for the rebuilding, repairing, okay. The chilling effect to remove the pollutants, chelating effect to remove the pollutants and calming and soothing effect on scalp. You know, to regenerate the scalp and also the follicle. So this has been a combination of intuition, visionary intuition of Simon and a very unique scientific committee that we put around the table. And really we created something that we can say is really sustainable because not only I respect the. The earth in the packaging ingredient especially because it's lifting, you know, the potential of the, of the human being that they see especially you know, with long hair. They see their hair very damaged, difficult to manage. And then they get frustrated because lose self confidence and so on.

Yeah. Well, thank you both for your very fantastic introductions. Climaplex Sounds like a fascinating brand. And the thing that really attracted me to the brand, which is how obviously I got to talk to both of you, was the fact that I've never before seen a brand formulate products to tackle the effects of climate change on the hair. That was very unique. So not only do you have obviously a strong brand, I think you also have a very unique hook there. Simon, you talked earlier about the fact that you trained originally as a hairdresser. You said you still have a lot of discussions and contacts in the hairdressing community. Have you heard a lot about an increase in hair damage as the effects of climate change take hold around the world? Because our listeners may not have even made that connection yet.

Yeah, I think it's an interesting point. I think probably still to date, there's not a general knowledge or understanding that, because what is climate change? I think we all determine climate change in different ways. Whether it's, you know, unusually climate change, it's affecting the planet, and we see, you know, images of, you know, the icebergs melting. We see, you know, especially in this horrific time in Turkey and Syria, and all the different things are happening around the world. People will categorize us under climate change. Whether that is or not, we're not sure. And I think that wasn't naturally our approach. What we saw, climate change, what is actually the effect that sees on the human body. I think we really are getting to understand much better what climate change is doing to the planet. And every government in the world would like to say that they are doing their utmost to help become more sustainable.

That's.

I think that's a different podcast for a different day. But I think for us, it was the humanistic approach to say, you know, when I talk to hairdressers or we talk to clients, and you think, you know, over the last 40 years, there's been some quite radical changes in the hair industry. And I've wind it back 20 years ago when we launched Bedhead. You know, Bedhead was about a sense of feeling. It was very new. It was slightly risky. The names were risky. It was all about the styling. We renowned very famously for Tony and being associated to Tony and Guy over the last few years, you know, the last decade especially, I think the development in hair care and scalp care has really advanced enormously. And I think if we approach this subject 20 years ago, I don't think the chemists would have understood what I was talking about. But over the last decade, especially the last five years, and I think a lot of habit, a Lot of it has been driven by the fact that women are having longer hair. So on one hand it's great because you can put your hair up, it's low maintenance. On the other hand, it's creating all kinds of problems because your hair is aging, the porosity is worse, color is fading, etc, etc. But also we know through climate change that the planet is heating. So through that, through that effect, we're seeing more humidity in the world, we're seeing stronger heats in the world, we're seeing much bigger cold spells. And all of these things have a direct impact. And if you think they really have a direct impact initially on your scalp and scalp irritation, there's an increase in scalp irritation, but then hair is easily damaged. So and hair gets affected in many ways through heat, UV rays, you know, by the water that you're using on it, on your hair. Looking at those different aspects, it was clear that the products that are on the market today do certain jobs. You might have one product that would rebuild the broken disulfide bonds in the hair. You might have one product that smooths the cuticle, that gives you brilliant shine. And there's many ways in doing that. There's artificial ways in doing it, using silicones as natural ways of doing it. There's products that we know that can soothe the scalp. But there really wasn't a combination of all. And when we briefed the chemists, my point to the chemist was I need a product range that's concise. It can't be a huge product range and it can't be hundreds and hundreds of products. It has to be a small concise range that really focuses on today's consumer. And if we think about breaking that down, one of our products, the Clarifying Shampoo, is a bi weekly or single weekly use product product and it removes the pollutants from the hair in the most natural of way. It's not stripping the hair, it's removing and soothing the scalp. But that gives you a perfect canvas. Then to use our two other products, which is either the hair needs volume or the hair needs a level of repair, but both probably need a level of moisture. So we simplified the range by saying the strength and volume, there's moisture and repair, and then you break it down even further. There's kind of three categories of maintenance to hair, which is I'd like my hair to be straight and I want to see gloss and I want to see shine, I want it all nice and smooth, I want to keep co definition. But actually one of the products that we have in the range. The hero product is our multi benefit styling spray. And this is a multifunctional product that has our CP reparative technology in the product. And if I break that down a little bit further. So as John Antonio said, it has a four step process. So it's working internally, it's working externally, it's removing any pollutants from the hair, but it's also smoothing the scalp. And that runs through the whole range. But then we added the additional benefits into the product to make sure that we could have moisture in a curl or curl formation or we could smooth the cuticle without damaging the hair. And we don't use any silicones. Silicones are no, no for us. And then we have a finishing product that, you know, ultimate shield product that puts a barrier really around the hair before you. It's the final process as you blow dry and you straighten your hair. And it just protects the hair from humidity, it protects the hair from UV rays. So what the chemists have managed to do, I mean, and this is my 40th year in the industry this year, worrying. But what the chemists have actually done, they created first and foremost for me was a professional range because that's my heritage. But we really wanted to go further afield, hence why we went into retail, into brick and mortar retail and chemistry tail. But what they've created is a very unique professional range of products. And initially we gave it to the hairdresser because the hairdresser is the most critical of all of our consumers. If the hairdresser doesn't like it and they're the most professional person to use it, well, they love the product. They absolutely love the product. So that endorsement really helps. And we, we launched the product in January 2022 in the North America States at first. And we had our initial press launch in New York where all the inquisitive editors came and they asked us two very straight questions. They were very interested in the plex technology because they'd heard of this word. They're also very interested in the climate. You know, they picked up on the same point as you're saying. Nobody's really understood the relationship between climate change and effects on our bodies or you know, our body is our hair and our scalp. And they were even more intrigued at price point. How, how do you manage to bottle that magic and put it at a price point? So I think I'm going to, I'm going to answer that the last but first. So we go direct to market. So we, we try and Offer the most competitive, affordable price to the consumers we possibly can using the highest grade of professional product. And the fact that it's 96% naturally derived is really, really important for us as well. But the feedback from the press was fantastic and it works on all hair types, literally all hair types around the world on every hair type. So that's a huge new category that we've, we've positioned ourselves within. And the feedback from the press was this. You know, they found the Plex technology to work super, super well. The feel and the natural feel of the hair and the, and the longevity of that repair was really well noticed and obviously they were excited at the price point. So they said this opens a new gap for consumers who maybe are in that kind of, you know, what do I use? Do I use a salon product or I do use a, you know, a typical high street product. And we carved out this kind of masstage area, you know, and then create climate effects within. So overall, you know, it's been extremely well received and understood I think is the most important point and very exciting.

What you're doing there. And I just want to pick up on those four dimensions that both of you have talked about and ask you, Jan Antonio, about them a little bit more. So you said the four dimensions are that the products work on the internal structure of the hair.

Yeah.

On the cuticle you remove heavy metals and pollutants and it smooths the hair and scalp. So those are big claims to make. And I know you already talked about the fact that you worked with the University of Naples. So how did you back up those claims? Because I think this is quite an important point for you, isn't it? It's something you feel very passionate about.

First of all, you know, during all our journey, this is for us as being, you know, let's say a best practice since, you know, it's an heritage of integrity. It's an heritage of my dad who was the founder of the company. So respect of your. Of who give to you the bread to eat should be a number one priority in our company. So my father was always looking at the supply chain from, from us to the end consumer and say, listen, the penny that we get is somebody that, you know, was sweating doing, you know, the secretary, the doctor, the lawyer, the mechanic, anything that they decided, you know, a certain point to enter a beauty shop or to enter a shop or to enter a salon or do something for themselves. So they wanted to relieve themselves from stress by buying a beauty product or by having a beauty service done on Them hair massage or whatever. So this is, you know, it's a relief from, you know, this heavy journey that is life. It's, you know, it's a bumpy road life. And sometimes you really need to have, you know, stress relief. So this person in that moment is in pain. In fact, all the, you know, the scientists, they call us when we approach beauty. They don't call us consumers or customer. They call us patient, patience. Because when you approach beauty, most of the time you are in pain, you are under stress, and beauty is even if when you apply a cream, when you apply something, you caress yourself or somebody else, maybe your hair, maybe your body is caressing yourself. Why apply a beauty product? And we are founded as a human being because the first thing that happened to us the day that we come to, you know, to this, to this world, somebody will touch us, will caress us, and we bath. So it's a cosmetic ritual with a caress, with a hug that happened to us. So this recall every time that we do a beauty ritual in every moment, bring us back to day one. Bring it, bring us back to basics. So my father was told that me and the team, you have to respect and honor this moment because this person is also giving you very important thing, trust, time and money. That means it's giving you because my father was telling me, if he will take out from you time, money and trust. Can I say that I'm spoiling part of your life? Yeah. So it's something very serious. We're talking about life of people that then through a long supply chain, them, they go to the retailer or to the professional, then go to distributor, master importer, come to us. But we are managing not the skin, not the scalp, not the hair, but the trust and the life of the people. So with this approach in mind, we started this journey with the scientists and this is all our approach and say, okay, is this true that this new world with all these new aggressors is really dramatically changing the status of hair and scalp? So these are creating adverse effects never seen before? Yes, it's true. Microbiota, discomfort, odors, irritation, porosity, presence of heavy metal, presence of chlorine, aggression of UV ray, uva, UVD never seen before. So this is true and this is evidence for sure. The planet is showing the evidence with, you know, melting the ice, changing the temperature, the planet is showing. But the question was, is also the human showing this? So the first feedback for university was the evidence as is. Yes, it's true, it's showing. So how we are all made by you know, amino acid, you know, sequence amino acid. And then you know, the bricks of keratin that made our hair connected with, you know, diesel fit bonds and ionic bonds and say they're destroyed, spoiled more than before. So we have to go inside the right natural, they say solution and build back help to deliver back with a vegetable. For us vegan approach because also, you know, animal keratin very performing nothing against that, but because it's still used, you know, successfully. But we wanted to have, you know, a more botanical approach. So with the phytocarotene and so on. So we, we develop also some unique raw material. If you see on our inkey list, there's some raw material that is kerashaft is patent by our group phytokeratins. Because we also have, we control all the supply chain. We have 22 scientists that from morning to night they only have to. Their mission is to discover new raw materials and patent them. We have this, we patent this raw material that work inside and with all the tools that the university we also have in a very advanced lab. But the university are more advanced because they also work on a pharmaceutical area. So they test, yes, urine repair and we have all the percentages of improving of reparation moisture and everything in inside. And then for sure, you know, all these pollutants bring the ph towards the alkaline ph. Now the cuticle are open and often, very often are also broken. Not only open, open and broken. So we need to fix back not only with an acid ph, but also like with a natural coating, transparent coating towards phase two. And then for sure with the egg agents to remove and to keep away the pollutants. And then with elements that can, you know, calm and soothe the scalp and reinvigorate a little bit the bulbs especially because during COVID a lot of people, especially women, they've seen, they experience a lot of hair losing hair thinning. So this is the approach and we have the data. Every single product, we have over 30 pages of analysis, certification. In fact, all the products have their stamp clinically proven.

Amazing. And I'm sure there are many indie beauty brands listening at the moment wishing that they had 22 scientists at their disposal and 30 pages of data to back up each product. The amount of effort you've put into this is quite commendable and incredible. Simon, I've got a question for you. Why do you think more beauty brands aren't starting to tackle the effects of climate change? Why has it taken so long for you guys to come forward and go, we're doing this when no one else seems to have really thought about it yet.

The simple answer, selfishly is I'm glad they're not. I genuinely think, because, I mean, it's very interesting because John and Tony and I have been in the industry for some of the time and our paths have cost many times. I generally think that's because we don't. I think in hair care we're either trying to create a brand that has a concept to it. So. And that's in two arenas. So it's either going to be. Or three arenas. It's going to be a botanical, very price affordable lifestyle product that you see on most supermarket shelves. And I think we've got to be super careful here that, you know, 90% of chambers and conditioner that's sold is usually under the $3, as any chemist will say for that price point. The quality of the product is limiting, is very limiting. And it's really, it's doing one function and that's to cleanse your hair and use usually artificial remedies to make the hair feel coated and glossy and shiny afterwards. The next level to the extreme is professional. And in professional, we're absolutely obsessed in making sure the hairdresser loves our product through technology. And in my background, it was all about imagery, you know, beautiful imagery and education to the hairdresser and how we would get that image and how we'd get a stylist to understand how to do it. And then there's this, this middle section that started to arise, which we call mastige. So it's this crossover between mass and professional. How does that work? But I genuinely think nobody really understood it. And I think, you know, we, we kind of, we've been so fixed on these traditional routes to market. It was really, for me, talking to hairdressers and, you know, the head, the headdresser is an amazing person on many, many, many levels, you know, and when we look historically to when hairdressers enter into the, this industry, and I'm a hairdresser, so I can say this. We either go into hairdressing because maybe we weren't academically enough to go to another, another job. Maybe we just didn't fit into school. Lots and lots of reasons. I went into hairdressing because the girlfriend I was seeing at the time was getting a hairdresser. I didn't know what I was going to do and I said, what are you going to do? She said, I'm going to be a hairdresser. And I said, I'm going to be a hairdresser as well. And thank God I did, because it's, you know, it's been a great career for 40 years. But I think generally when you look at our industry and you know, what a hairdresser gives a consumer is such, such power because this hairdresser who maybe isn't seen as professional as a lawyer or as a doctor or whoever, I come from a family of doctors, so I was a hairdresser. But this hairdresser does the hair of doctors, lawyers and making them feel fantastic. And the hairdresser has this unbelievably emotional connection to a consumer's hair and scalp. That's what they see visually every single day. And we forget to talk to them. You know, we think when we, when we research, we think we have to talk to scientists and we have to talk to people in laboratories. But actually the real connection, the humanistic connection is relating to the person that's touching every single day. Like a gp. You know, why is a gp? GP is a. They cover a huge spectrum of medical. They're not specializing in one, but they are the feeder to the people that specialize because they see so many different conditions every single day in their surgeries. The hairdresser is no different. They see so many different degrees of hair, gout length damage. And only by talking to the hairdresser we really understood this impact. We then just had to understand the relationship between it. And it wasn't really until I came to meet John Antonio properly and I said, this is what's going on in my mind, this is what I'm hearing, this is what I'm being told and I think it's got something to do with climate change. And for the first time he said, you know what, we've never approached it this way. I'm going to bring my scientists in, let's have a roundtable meeting and let's discuss it. And we really started then to identify the problem. So I have to thank the hairdresser first and foremost because without that voice we wouldn't understand the direction that we would have gone in.

And that's incredibly powerful. And I completely understand then why so few other brands seem to be going down that route, if any at all. Perhaps you will be inspiring the future of the beauty industry to do more along these lines. Who knows? And you will have everything patented and ready to go by the sense of.

Things very, very often also. So everyone is always following the same path, you know, just, you know, renewing, renewing. It's like, you know, when Was anything. You always try to improve what it is not think out of the box. Everyone is really incredible now. Everyone is copying the other or inspired by some new idea, but just to improve what is already there. So this was really a lateral thinking out of the box that, you know, when, when someone first time talk to me, I didn't get immediately, frankly speaking, then at the second point, maybe there is something here. Then, you know, when the scientists came and they were very collaborative and because most of the time, you know, also the scientists, they're reluctant to go to some new arena to work in new arenas where, you know, they're not familiar with. They're not the snow enough history in that. So we really created this new category in hair care. The reality also, you know, the team. I have a pin since many, many, many years that is this beauty pioneers, you know, so really the team me since, you know, over 20 years, we founded this group inside our group of people that really want to challenge ourselves, challenge themselves every day. I mean, what we discovered yesterday is still, you know, real today. There's no other perspective. And this is also very challenging for a factory because you challenge yourself every time. And that means that, you know, your factory normally wants stability because you, you know, you want to take advantage of huge investment you did in a. In a new raw material, in a new machine, on a new product, new investor. While we're a little bit crazy on that side because we challenge ourselves, is this the best for the universe? And the universe, I can tell you that this my father, because he was an orphan, an orphan during the war, so has been adopted, adopted by the church when he was only two years old. So we appreciated, you know, what means donating anything. And you know, and he passed through the war and not have the opportunity even to study was very, very challenging youth. So we started from, as my father said, not from zero, much, much below zero. And we've been, you know, blessed that, you know, we could survive and have a family and company that became a big group and have a lot of families around us. The universe has been always good with us probably also because we try to really do our best for the universe without putting us first though. We really, this, I think is something that I want always to encourage people say, you think to the other. You will see that the universe will take care of you. If you really spontaneously and really think, genuinely think, what's the best for the others, what the best I can do for the other, what, what I would like to receive if I wear new shoes. This is if you do like this and become your mantra, your obsession universe will be very good with you.

I love that. Bringing the ethics into formulation and designing a brand I think is something that our listeners will very much resonate with as well. So you're definitely talking to the right audience today, Simon, when it comes to the products and the, the end customer. I know we talked a bit about hairdressers, but ob, there's the end customer, the woman with long hair like me for instance. How are you going to raise awareness with customers that they need to be thinking about the effects of climate change on their hair? Because that presumably won't be an easy challenge either if people aren't fully aware of it.

No, I mean the old dear. So the. My daughter is obsessed and done extremely well on social media. You know, she's built her own business, blogger, celebrity status. Completely confusing to me. You know what she does. But it's, and I joke. But the reality is this, you know, when we launched our previous famous brand which was, you know, Bedhead, you know, back then the only channel of advertising was paper based, whether it was magazines, TV obviously as well. So the communication was very much based on, we hope that somebody will read something, they'll read it, they'll digest it and, and the attitude is always they've got to read it three or four times before they completely digest it, you know, and the, you know, so that we did was very much about, about. If we can keep the consistency of an image going through different media channels then hopefully it will resonate with the consumer. The consumer will go into salon and buy something that's gone in a lot of respects because what we're now left with is social media. And that's really the voice, isn't it? The social media and social media can be damaging as we know as well as it can be positive. And I don't know which fence I, which side of the fence I sit on fully, but I think if I had to look at it positively, what is important so in our strategy and especially the strategy for this year and we're rolling out really in the next six months is we want to explain through social media what climate, the effects that climate change is having on the hair and scalp. That's our first part of education and I think we will also look in some levels to do that still through paper based advertising. And ideally as the brand grows, we'd love to communicate that through digital TV channel communication as well. But the first message is why is this happening? The second message is how does climateplex fit that gap because the consumer is far more savvy and intelligent than we think. They are far more researched than ever before. And the reality is, you know, we have some friends in today from the UK into Italy looking at products and I've known these guys for 30 years. You know, anything that we want now is at our fingertips, isn't it? We can explore, we can read, we can Google everything. Even to the degree I have my phone here, you know, on a Monday morning, it tells me how bad I've been about looking at my screen all week, doesn't it? And whether I'm up or I'm down. But probably 90% of that time I'm looking at my screen. If it's not about email, it's research, isn't it? Everything that we do, we research, research, research. So we've also got to work with the media channels to understand how we can educate the consumer through what we're learning. But it's not patronizing the consumer because the consumer knows, you know, the consumer knows probably better than anybody else and they're researching that. So we have to become the almost an official voice of saying, look, this is what we found, this is the research we've done and it's, and it's clinically proven researched and we've spent the time and energy in doing that. So this is what we're seeing. And oh yeah, Climoplex isn't pretty bottles and the fragrance smells great and it dispenses really well and it's clearly understood in the packaging. But then we want to educate the consumer to why those certain ingredients do the things that they do. That's the crucial part. Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. Consumers still want to know if the product's going to work or not. You know, so you can have the best claimed words in the world, you can say everything you like. But at the end of the day, if the consumer user doesn't like it and doesn't engage, it's not going to work. So that consumer satisfaction is incredibly important for us. I'm less motivated to use paid influencers to do this because the word paid there represents something that I'm not particularly comfortable with. I think I just, I want consumers to get engaged. Things like we're creating samples in very eco friendly packaging. Samples that will have, will give to the retailers they can give to their consumers to try. Am I better off investing money into that than I am spending tens of thousands of pounds having somebody that's paid to say my product is great? It's not the right move for me. I'm really against that strategy. However, you know, we still need to show diversity. So in a lot of the campaigns that we do, we want to include every hair type from around the world to show the diversity of the product as well. So I think in a nutshell for me it's already educating a well educated consumer and maybe just giving them more information about what they're already inquisitive about. It's making sure that they understand the ingredient meets the need and ultimately it's the experience they're going to have by using the product and if they light upon it, they'll come back and buy it for more.

Sounds like a very clear strategy and I have no doubt it will succeed and do well. So I'm going to come to the end of this podcast but I have one more question for both of you which is what's next for climax? What's going to happen in the coming year? John, Antonio, can you start us off please?

After it's only we celebrate one year and was very intense year 2022 because the response of the of the market has been impressive and and also one just to answer your question because you know we did some real shooting with model A real shooting in the sense that was not a prepare we are a little bit always very natural, very genuine. We don't like to be everything, you know, prepared because we think that again we want to say the truth was very impressive where the models that we were using for to show that performance of the product and so on. After a few words they completely got the message. Ah, now I understand why I can even you know with the same shampoo, the same condition that you know was making me happy for more than five years, seven years now and then we after the shooting unbelievable. This is you know we we do this shooting shows around the world since you know more than half centuries. It's the first time that you know the models remain connected with us. I want tell me where I am here, where I shop the product, where I can shop the product. Tell me more about this what's next and become also influencer micro influence about the product by heart. Not because there was a strategy behind so it's something that the message is really becoming viral and we just finished a big event in Cannes with most of the buyer the major retailer group of the world and we have been commented as in the last 15, 20 years is one of the very few wow meeting that I experienced and so on. On the other side we started to Listen to somebody that after one year became, you know, the veteran of using Climaplex and they were starting to say, okay, now I feel the need to have also body shower, shower gel, body shower gel to, to feel protected also my body. And what about something for my skin and what about because I have my hands exposed all day in my face, I want to feel shielded when, when I take the shower, you know, so I want to have, you know, a shower gel and also a body lotion feel shield when I exit home. But I also want to have something more to get protect for the hands and the face and then maybe also something more to rebuild also the damages, to fight damages during night with a night cream that I can, you know, wear during my sleep and so on. So the next what's next is coming guided by, you know, again bottom up. The end consumer that are giving are driving us what they feel they need because they felt a big difference in their parents. Scalp was proven, clinically proven. But the most important thing is I always say science is objective, but then again that is subjective because maybe you don't like the packaging, you don't like the fragrance, you don't like the performance. So this is very personal. We are unique as our fingerprint, but the overall feedback has been meeting the scientific feedback. So the attachment of the brand is there and climax is really becoming viral. And there is this network think tank happening with the end consumer driving us. This should be next and we will follow.

This sounds very exciting. I can see you expanding the range dramatically already. Simon, from your perspective, what's next for Climaplex?

It's always tempting to increase, increase, increase. I think first and foremost we've got a plant, you know what we have, which is the nine current products and those nine products cater for really most of what needs to happen in a daily routine of your hair and scalp. But I do agree with John Antonio. I think we really want to invest in making sure that the innovation we bring to market, whether that branch is into skincare, nail care, you know, body, personal care. But there always has to have a reason and a benefit. And for me, clinically proven, you know, I think this the route that we've gone down now we're obsessed even on professional products. We have them clinically proven. So is there a need? And we're not just making more bottles for the sake of making bottles, you know, and we've made this pledge never to use virgin packaging again so you can get caught up in a trap that we're launching more and more plastic and more and more plastic, even though it's been recycled. So first and foremost, identify the need. And if the need is there, then we'll address it. But address it with still natural, naturally derived ingredients that has a scientific and clinically proven claim to it. That's my vision.

I love it. You're both incredibly inspirational. What you've created is amazing. I'm sure our listeners are already googling you and obviously the links for Climate Platform will be with all the notes for this podcast as well. Thank you so much, both of you for coming on the podcast.

Thank you.

All right. You have been wonderful. Thank you for hosting us. We really wish to your audience and to yourself, you know, the best for your life and you've been very sweet and we, we love to spend a nice time with you and with your audience. And thank you again, you know, from the bottom of our heart, you and your audience, for, you know, giving us the opportunity to express this revolution.

It's exciting what you're doing.

Hopefully they will join us, you know, in this journey.

Definitely. I have no doubt that they will. I'm sure you're sparking off all sorts of ideas all over the world as people are listening to this. So thank you both very much. It's been a real pleasure.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Is your mind now also blown by the potential for formulating for climate change? And what did you think of Simon and Jan Antonio's amazing track record and stories? I'm sure you're feeling very inspired just like I am. So please do come and leave us a comment on our social channels. Tell me how you feel after listening to this episode as both the Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you. If you'd like to listen to more podcast episodes that touch on this topic, head on over now to episode 71, in which I interview the certification scheme Climate Neutral to find out how beauty brands can become climate neutral. Or episode 87, in which I interview Formula Botanica graduates Elsie and Dominika of Bybee Beauty to find out whether it's possible to have a carbon negative beauty brand. And episode 104, in which I explore why we need entrepreneurs to push forward the sustainable beauty agenda. There is a wealth of knowledge sat in the podcast episodes I've already recorded, so please do spend some time exploring all of them. Thank you for joining Simon, Jan Antonio and I for this latest episode of Green Beauty Conversations. I really hope you enjoyed it. It if you did, please make sure that you leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations too. And subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever your favorite podcast app is and stay tuned for the next episode. Follow Formula Botanica at Formula Botanica on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, LinkedIn, and come and follow me too at Lorraine Dalmayer on Instagram. As I always share the latest from the podcast and share my thoughts on green and sustainable beauty. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com and sign up for our free online formulation course today.